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::::::::::::::Let's start over. Reread the first post. Agree or disagree with it? Because I don't think that schools insisting on teaching genesis ''in science classes'' is at all equivalent. Again, our article on evolution doesn't need to present creationism as a valid alternative theory. There is no basis for doing so. No reliable sources say that it is. But our article on evolution (since we are a ''general interest'' encyclopedia) should present information about how schools are doing foolish things, and on what people think about that. Reliably sourced. Because evolution as a topic of ''general interest'' has more context than just the science. Marginalizing that off to the corner does general readership a disservice. This, by the way, is not [[teach the controversy]] as used by creationists, and if you think it is, you're not getting what I'm saying yet. ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 22:35, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Let's start over. Reread the first post. Agree or disagree with it? Because I don't think that schools insisting on teaching genesis ''in science classes'' is at all equivalent. Again, our article on evolution doesn't need to present creationism as a valid alternative theory. There is no basis for doing so. No reliable sources say that it is. But our article on evolution (since we are a ''general interest'' encyclopedia) should present information about how schools are doing foolish things, and on what people think about that. Reliably sourced. Because evolution as a topic of ''general interest'' has more context than just the science. Marginalizing that off to the corner does general readership a disservice. This, by the way, is not [[teach the controversy]] as used by creationists, and if you think it is, you're not getting what I'm saying yet. ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 22:35, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::You write, "where the editors working in this area have went in the weeds, in my view, is in covering the material around the science. GW as a topic is much more than the science, and the lead article covering only the science is the wrong emphasis." Just looked at [[Politics of global warming]]. What's the problem? [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 22:37, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::You write, "where the editors working in this area have went in the weeds, in my view, is in covering the material around the science. GW as a topic is much more than the science, and the lead article covering only the science is the wrong emphasis." Just looked at [[Politics of global warming]]. What's the problem? [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 22:37, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::[[Politics of global warming]] isn't the lead article on the topic. It's a fork. [[global warming]] is the lead article. (some forks are for good and valid reasons, due to our use of summary style, but it's a fork nonetheless) ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 00:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) I too am curious about the remark "GW as a topic is much more than the science, and the lead article covering only the science is the wrong emphasis." First, I and many others in the science cabal agree with you. Second, a crude word count shows that [[global warming]] is about 60% science and 40% "other stuff." Were you perhaps thinking of a different article? [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 00:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) I too am curious about the remark "GW as a topic is much more than the science, and the lead article covering only the science is the wrong emphasis." First, I and many others in the science cabal agree with you. Second, a crude word count shows that [[global warming]] is about 60% science and 40% "other stuff." Were you perhaps thinking of a different article? [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 00:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
:I counted the lead paragraphs in [[global warming]], the lead article. It has 4. The ''last'' one, by far the smallest, with probably well less than 20% of the total word count of the lead as a whole, although I didn't measure it (if I had I bet I'd be reporting an even smaller number) is the only one that isn't strictly science. IMHO, anyway. Wrong emphasis. Further, it's weak, it talks about mitigation options. Not impacts. IMHO, anyway. The article probably ought to be 70/30 other stuff/science, and that ought to be reflected in the lead. IMHO, anyway. ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 00:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


=== A request for assistance with an article ===
=== A request for assistance with an article ===

Revision as of 00:46, 19 March 2010

   
About me 		   


   
Essays 		   


   
Trinkets 		   


   
Trivia 		   


   
Visited 		   


   
Talk 		     

I recognize that this user page belongs to the Wikipedia project and not to me personally. As such, I recognize that I am expected to respectfully abide by community standards as to the presentation and content of this page, and that if I do not like these guidelines, I am welcome either to engage in reasonable discussion about it, to publish my material elsewhere, or to leave the project.


My real name is Larry Pieniazek and I like LEGO(r) Brand building elements. Feel free to mail me with comments or concerns if you don't want to post.

  • Here about a BLP that's persistently getting vandalized and you want me to semi protect it? Leave a note below, (User:Lar/Liberal Semi is no longer in use) and I or one of my TPWs will get it.
  • Here to leave me a message? Response time varies depending on where I'm active... Ping me if it's truly urgent, or find another admin.
  • Here about accountability? see my accountability page.
    Note: The apparent listification of the category (it's back but may go away again) does not change my commitment to my recallability in any way

Please read the two blue boxes :).

A Note on how things are done here:

Being a "grumpy old curmudgeon", I have certain principles governing this talk page which I expect you to adhere to if you post here. (This talk page is my "territory", (although I acknowledge it's not really mine, it's the community's) and I assume janitorial responsibility for it.)

  • Please observe Wikipedia:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette here.
  • I may, without notice, refactor comments to put like with like, correct indents, or retitle sections to reflect their contents more clearly. If I inadvertently change the meaning of anything, please let me know so I can fix it!
  • While I reserve the right to delete comments I find egregiously poor form, I am normally opposed to doing so and use monthly random archives instead. If you post here, your words will remain here and eventually in the archives, so please do not delete them, use strikeouts. In other words, think carefully about what you say rather than posting hastily or heatedly.
  • Edit warring here is particularly bad form. One of my WP:TPW's may well issue a short block, so don't do it.
  • When all else fails, check the edit history.
(cribbed from User:Fyslee's header... Thanks!)
(From User:Lar/Eeyore Policy)
A Note on threading:

Interpersonal communication does not work when messages are left on individual users' talk pages rather than threaded, especially when a third party wishes to read or reply.

Being a "bear of very little brain", I get easily confused when trying to follow conversations that bounce back and forth, so I've decided to try the convention that many others seem to use, aggregation of messages on either your talk page or my talk page. If the conversation is about an article I will try to aggregate on the article's talk page.

  • If the conversation is on your talk page or an article talk page, I will watch it.
  • If the conversation is on my talk page or an article talk page and I think that you may not be watching it, I will link to it in a note on your talk page, or in the edit summary of an empty edit. But if you start a thread here, please watch it.

I may mess up, don't worry, I'll find it eventually. Ping me if you really need to.

please note this is a personal preference rather than a matter of site policy

(From User:Lar/Pooh Policy)


Archives

Talk Page Archives
My post 2012 archived talk
Archive 79 1 December 2012 through 1 December 2013
Archive 80 1 December 2013 through 1 December 2016
Archive 81 1 December 2016 through 1 December 2018
Archive 82 1 December 2018 through 1 January 2021
Archive 83 1 January 2021 through 1 January 2023
Archive 84 1 January 2023 through 1 January 2025 ??
RfA Thank Yous
RFA Archive Howcheng (27 Dec 2005) through present
All dates approximate, conversations organised by thread start date

Note: I archive off RfA thank yous separately, I think they're neat!
An index to all my talk page archives, automatically maintained by User:HBC Archive Indexerbot can be found at User:Lar/TalkArchiveIndex.

Userify request

At your suggestion, I'll take these off your hands: Osamu Migitera‎, Osamu Kubota, Shiyuna Maehara, Naoki Maeda, Thomas Howard Lichtenstein, and if you would be so kind these that were deleted by others: Seiya Murai, Mutsuhiko Izumi, Hideyuki Ono, Hiroyuki Togo, Takehiko Fujii, Tatsuya Furukawa. And might as well move these off since someone's balls apparently dropped last night and is still rampaging: Toshiyuki Kakuta, Hiroshi Takeyasu, Sanae Shintani, Takayuki Ishikawa. When these pages are moved into user space do they carry their original histories? Cause some of them were severely clipped just prior to deletion. It's a shame really, cause it'll be a time before I can do anything to them. And while putting them in user space is better that deletionism, they won't be in a position to be edited by anyone passing through that can contribute. Which is why Wikipedia exists.  æronphonehome  12:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just add pages under /Articles/ from 8 on up (User:AeronPeryton/Articles/8 and so on) as needed. Thanks.  æronphonehome  12:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, happy to oblige. It may not be this very instant but it will be within a few hours. As a procedural note, if the article has been restored, it doesn't make sense to userify it, as it's already been restored to mainspace and userification would thwart the will of whoever decided to restore it. When it's userified, the entire history will be restored as well (unless there are some revisions that need to stay deleted). If someone decides that the deletion needs to be undone completely, they will presumably move it back. So given the state of flux here, it pays to check to see what's going on before acting. I'll check histories, and I'm suggesting that you check before doing a big edit run, so no one happens to move it while you are editing (maybe add an inuse while doing significant editing? not sure).
Alright then, it'll make more check up work but just move the already red linked deletions. In light of the case built up over this I'll wait and see if the others go down too. In all fairness it's not your fault that people are screaming about this, that happens anytime huge changes are made whether they're needed or not, but the way it was done combined with the attitudes of the people doing the deleting (or supporting it cause they can't do it themselves) makes it hard for me and others to believe that it is in the best interest of Wikipedia, Her purpose and primary goal. Good luck with your case.  æronphonehome  14:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
TPWs please feel free to restore/move these if I haven't gotten to them. AP: Thanks for volunteering!++Lar: t/c 12:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolution list

I will update this list as I identify what's going on.

My deletions:

By Scott MacDonald (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)

Articles identified as of interest:

Done with mine, working the rest. ++Lar: t/c 15:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Second bunch is Scott's, done, need to do the third bunch. ++Lar: t/c 16:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done with third batch. ++Lar: t/c 01:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolution list part 2

Appreciate your help, these are unrelated to this event but are related to the article scope I work in so what's a few more at this point?:

Did these. ++Lar: t/c 18:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And we'll put Atsushi Shindo one on watch along with Osamu Kubota & Osamu Migitera.

Not sure what needs doing here. ++Lar: t/c 18:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Watching.  æronphonehome  18:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, ok, gotcha. ++Lar: t/c 19:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Watching

Unless other articles get nominated this should be it, please userify these just like the others under my /Articles subfolder. Thank you for your help.  æronphonehome  14:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, you want all of these userified? I'll go through this list and either userify, or explain why I didn't. It may not be right away but it should be this week. ++Lar: t/c 14:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes please. Thanks again.  æronphonehome  00:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: First batch done

Next batch done

(last of 3 Mar bunch) ++Lar: t/c 17:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC) Remaining batch done 6 march ++Lar: t/c 19:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Advise of any concerns. ++Lar: t/c 19:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC) Easier to watch them here, because of this whole thing my watchlist is very difficult to read.  æronphonehome  18:55, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One more time:

Userified a few. you need to clean out the templates, categories and the like, ASAP. More soon. ++Lar: t/c 18:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

As for working on them in the mainspace it's clear that we've exceeded the Wikipedia deadline for article completion.  æronphonehome  18:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can do the rest of these for you, sure... but can you sort out this many at once? Presumably you have enough to do to keep you busy for a bit, I may not get to the rest right away, but I will get to them, probably within 24 hours or less. ++Lar: t/c 22:05, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe my sarcasm was too subtle. There is in fact no deadline for anything here, but you guys want it in dress uniform right now or you want it gone. So give 'em to me. I'll build what I can and trash anything I can't. At least I'm offering to DO something, right?  æronphonehome  02:54, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you are. And good on you for doing so. I wish more people would. You have my sincere thanks. These articles sat with problems for 3 years and 11M users didn't do anything while the backlog grew and grew. We need a reordering of priorities here. Sometimes a shock to the system is what's required. That's regrettable, but it is what it is. We gave the shock, and now the community, at last, is responding in a myriad useful ways... improving tags, processes and articles. ++Lar: t/c 14:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I solemnly agree, but I still maintain that all the effort put into rocking the boat could be used to plug the holes that the rocking is being done for. Just like I was telling Bali Unlimited in one of the first article to go up for AFD, if you spent half the effort fixing the articles as you do yelling about them things wouldn't be so bad.  æronphonehome  16:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather not debate the point here in what is essentially a "work thread". But no. 450,000 BLPs and growing. How many are problematic? No one knows for sure but it's a large number. The backlogs grew and grew and grew. Efforts to do anything less radical were thwarted. Enough. ++Lar: t/c 16:48, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not disagreeing with you, more like lamenting. At least you're being a real person without an apparent social disorder. I guess I just need- *sniff* someone to talk to... ^_-  æronphonehome  19:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
real person, without a social disorder???? [citation needed] ... at least according to some folk. :) Lament away, though. Because I agree. It's too bad it came to this. ++Lar: t/c 19:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least not one you can't handle. I don't like how mass deletion and bad attitudes seem to always go together. I put up a watchlist since I doubt this thing is over and while other people are open to mass deletion I'm open to mass adoption. Thanks for your help so far.  æronphonehome  18:59, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This last bunch: (Asaki. Ayako Saso. Atsushi Shindo. Junko Karashima. Kazuhiro Senoo. Kiyomi Kumano. Kozo Nakamura. Miharu Arisawa. Naoyuki Sato. Osamu Kubota. Osamu Migitera. Paula Terry. Reiji Sakurai. Risa Sotohana) ... did you want those userified too or are you just making notes to yourself?

Also what's going on with this: Wikipedia:AN3#User:AeronPeryton_reported_by_User:JBsupreme (see lower on this page too)... Please don't edit war. Please discuss things and arrive at a good arrangement. Removing red links is legitimate maintenance. ++Lar: t/c 02:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's why I'm keeping this list on your talk page. If you want it somewhere else just let me know. As for the spat with the deletion brothers, what can you do? My last attempts to talk with both of them were simply deleted. It doesn't get any unfriendlier than that. They're both unashamedly crude, but I get disciplined. Gotta really love this place to give a care about it sometimes. Look towards the bottom too, I have a couple of questions.  æronphonehome  17:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re the list, I'm fine with it here, but fair warning, I archive my talk page monthly and so all the Jan stuff (unless it's sitll active) will get archived away... so you may want to make a list in your own userspace or whatever. I thought maybe you wanted those actually userified. If you do just ask, I am happy to but I need to know, right now I'm not totally clear. As for the other matter, I'l comment below. But I'd again implore you to try to talk to folk first, and avoid edit warring. I think at least one of your "adversaries" thinks you're the one not being comunicative, so maybe a reset and start over might help.... put the past behind you and communicate clearly and hope for the best. ++Lar: t/c 20:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the list is there in the hopes that you will userify those as well. I didn't want to make a new entry on your talk page every time yet another article went under. I imagine the scope of what I'm asking your help with will be active for a while, so if you archive this section I'll just fish out the ones that still need to be done and put it somewhere else.
I'll respond to the rest below in our other conversation.  æronphonehome  21:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:REDLINK & the bounds of a BLP article

Two things, first can you read the first couple of paragraphs of WP:REDLINK at tell me if I'm crazy or not? It starts by saying why red links exist, how important they are, and then it says when bad articles are deleted one should make any link to it go away. It seems contradictory so the way I interpret that is the backlinks should be removed only in the case that it's glaringly obvious that the article will never return. If an article is deleted about a notable or important subject and it was simply not conforming to guidelines and no one was willing to help it do so then I believe, and am supported by WP:REDLINK in thinking, that red links should stay there for future reference and work.

There are figures on Wikipedia that aggregate red links to tell how wanted a non-existent article is. Removing red links on purpose prevents people from getting an accurate reading that way. And what happens when an article is reintroduced that is done proper? You'd have to do a plain text search of Wikipedia to re-link the term or subject manually. What a waste of effort. If that is how the guideline should be interpreted then it seriously needs to be re-evaluated and revised to be clearer of its intent. Otherwise you have what JBSupreme and I had. Is there a process in which policy and guideline can be introduced for overview and discussion?

Second, when an article is created for a person is there a limit to discussing only one single person per article? I was considering taking all the individuals who may not meet notability on their own and wrapping their bios into List of Bemani musicians. The article would assert the person's importance in the series specifically rather than their importance to world in general. If one or more of them are notable enough to have their own article then a stub section in the list would simply link to their own article and give a brief overview of that person inline. I have spent just about no effort on Wikipedia making BLPs so I know next to nothing about the protocol with them (even less so now with this pitchfork riot) so if you can, I would appreciate your help.  æronphonehome  18:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok on the first part, I agree with you, the page wording is conflicting. But that is the way of many wikipedia policies. We expect people to use common sense when applying them. What is that page really saying? It's saying that redlinks are good, except when they're bad. They're good if they link to pages that we ought to have, because they're on topics we don't have yet but should. SO link them so the project can grow. They're bad when they link to pages that we ought not to have, because they're typos, misspellings, or (more importantly) on topics we know for sure, or we already decided, we shouldn't have, and it's not likely that will ever change. SO don't link them so people don't get confused and create pages we know not to create.
Where things have gone awry here is that there is a disagreement on certain pages... they were deleted. Normally that's a sign that we shouldn't have a link, and that's why policy says get rid of the links. But in this case they were deleted not because we are sure we should never have an article, they were deleted because they were unsourced and we were playing it safe. Strikes me that some of the redlinks here might well come back as articles, and soon, as soon as they get sourced.
All THAT said, things went in the weeds because edit warring broke out. As soon as that happens, it tends to break down communication. As I said above, I'd try communicating again. I can have a word with JBS if you want. ++Lar: t/c 20:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In response to what you said above, I did try to talk to both of them. When you approach someone with logical rationale (however cynical) and they respond with deleting what you wrote it's pretty obvious who's being uncooperative. I chose to continue reverting the bad idea changes because I see them as just that, and I asked for arbitration (literally), though nothing got intelligently discussed there either (I was blocked by someone involved in all the deletion, surprise surprise). Even though, I can't think of anything you would say to either of them that would change their behaviour for the better... though perhaps you could do something about this? Bali has been doing this to several articles in and not in the process of AfD. Is he trying to bolster his edit count?  æronphonehome  21:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As for your second question I honestly don't know. Seems a good question to me. I know we do similar things with songs that don't merit articles, they get described in the album article, and albums, they get described in the musician's article.... Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 20:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes, I'm clearly trying to inflate my edit count. What else could explain my decision to quietly remove a post to my talk page that said I "behave in a manner that goes against the spirit of the Wikipedia project and you barely actually contribute to it so that makes your existence here almost worthless" and that I clearly "have no time in your busy life to be a nice person or to aid and contribute and instead want to see categories of information removed on the grounds of your personal (Oxford-like?) tastes." I was of course thoroughly convinced by your logically devastating statement (demonstrating a mastery of classical rhetoric) that all that was why my "bad faith edits to List of Bemani musicians has been reverted as will anything else that goes against the purpose of this project that I contribute to while you cynically critique."[2]. Of course, a rational contributor in good faith would have responded positively to your edit summaries on your fourth revert calling my efforts "vandalism" [3] and your fifth revert calling them "bad faith."[4]. Well played, sir! I can see why you've declined defending the maintenance of entirely unsourced information about living people on the article's talk page... your case has already been succinctly and irrefutably made. And if that wasn't enough, you finished with a logical flourish: "As for my excuse for exhibiting 3rr behaviour, again, I do not believe that their edits are in keeping with good faith or even good ideas. It feels as though they simply want to delete and bury everything for good."[5].
In fact, the creation and maintenance of unsourced articles on living people has to stop. There are strong ethical, real world reasons for this. There are strong research and verifiability reasons for this that need to be the core of any encyclopedic project. And it's all well-supported by wikipedia's policies. I'm not particularly interested in educating you if you can't be bothered to read and figure it out for yourself. Perhaps Lar will be more patient. One last bit of advice: being nice does not mean "letting you have your way." I was willing to let the edit warring slide after the fourth revert as i informed you on your talk page. That was me being nice. I'll make you a deal: You can do as much original research and unsourced editing as you like to the Dance Dance Revolution walled garden without any interventions from me so long as you leave living people out of it. Any creation of articles on people (or aggregating lists about living people) that are unsupported by reliable sources independent of the subject and that fail to pass any of the notability guidelines, will draw my attention.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
....errrrm, what happened to the rest of this page?? --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I archive once a month. See the archive list at the top of the page. I think you'll find January's topics in User talk:Lar/Archive 62. Archives are searchable as well, see User:Lar/TalkArchiveIndex. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 16:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Hypothetical Question for you Lar

If an administrator were to participate in defense of one of his facebook friends, when a complaint has been made against his friend, would it be appropriate to make this defense in the "uninvolved administrator" section of such a complaint and without disclosing their relationship? I'd think the problem would be potentially worse than the admins sole actions due to the concepts behind seed money (which of course may be the point). TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking hypothetically, is it possible you had too many twists and turns in there? It didn't parse for me, I'm afraid. ++Lar: t/c 20:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about that, I guess the basic point is that if an administrator is a friend of someone, then is there a COI in defending that friend, using administrative authority, when a formal complaint is filed?
I guess the seed money article doesn't really cover my intended use, which was from politics, where politicians, at fund raisers, have friends and family who "spontaneously" donate to the politician in order to encourage others to do the same. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amazingly, real world courts have discussed this absurd question.

The above article relates to the decision of a British magistrate (a lay judge who presides over minor cases assisted by a legal staff). --TS 20:51, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah excellent, remind me to commit crimes in the UK where my myspace and facebook friends can serve on juries against me. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was for a time "following" (the Twitter equivalent of friending) quite a sizable number of US politicians. I find the notion that such links create a conflict of interest ridiculous. In facebook, where profiles are often closed, the question is even more absurd, because friending is sometimes the only way to gain access to the profile. --TS 21:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Funny, all my myspace/facebook friends are really my friends - not some way to communicate private information. I do admit my analogy was a bit flawed, a better one would be having one of my friends as the actual judge of my case. The UK really is a funny place! TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Theoretically: Uninvolved administrators are the ones who should make final decisions. Those who are involved should disclose the nature of their interest (a friend, an adversary, a co worker, an editor from the same projects, what have you) and while they can advocate, they should not decide. That's the theoretical way it's supposed to work. Actually there are cases where it does not work that way, regrettably, but that's the ideal to strive for. Does that help at all? ++Lar: t/c 21:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that's the way I thought it should work. Thanks. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh look, you've suddenly switched your definition of involved: who said So no, I remain uninvolved. I do not edit in this area at all. ++Lar: t/c 21:46, 25 February 2010 (UTC)? William M. Connolley (talk) 22:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. That was shorthand, perhaps, but not an actual change. More elaborately: I don't edit in this area. I don't work in this area. I don't count any of the other editors in this area among my close friends or dearest foes. I don't have friends or relatives who work in this area. My employer cares a bit about this but it's not their primary focus either. In short, uninvolved. I have views, yes, but I'm not involved to any degree any reasonable person would find credible. Thanks for stopping by. ++Lar: t/c 22:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe not, but you do seem to have used a rather modest standard when speaking of yourself, and suddenly incorporated a much broader and it appears to me, rather novel) definition when speaking of the ideal. And since some of us think we can guess who The Good Locust is referring to, and taking into account the question asked, you should bear in mind that you appear to be criticising an identifiable editor for having facebook friends. --TS 22:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not following you at all here. Perhaps you could posit your working definition of "uninvolved"? ++Lar: t/c 22:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel the need to have any definition of "uninvolved". I think it's enough to ask admins not to use their tools to further a dispute. --TS 22:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, really, since you are apparently criticizing my definition, I want to hear yours. Unless you are saying that all admins are uninvolved? ++Lar: t/c 23:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What "area" would you be referring to? You seem to be a bit defensive about something - why is that? I was just asking Lar a hypothetical question. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:36, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have 238 friends on Facebook. I login once per six months. How would I even remember if somebody friended me? I'm pretty friendly and acknowledge many requests even for people I barely know. This complaint is a bit silly. Jehochman Brrr 22:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not even sure what the complaint is! I thought this was a hypothetical question. I think I have even more FB "friends" than you do, as well as many LinkedIn connections, lots of twitter followers (and followees) as well as... wait for it, 340+ TPWs! ++Lar: t/c 22:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • There you go being coy again. --TS 22:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • No, I'm honestly unclear what this is all about. ++Lar: t/c 23:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Coy? Are you saying there really is someone who is getting their facebook friends/admins to run defense for them? Please provide diffs. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Oh nm Tony, I think I found what you were referring to. It is too bad my topic ban prohibits me from pointing out such a flagrant COI. TheGoodLocust (talk) 00:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • Can you, or anyone, please tell me what's going on? Email me or something, whatever it takes. This is ridiculous. I don't care for games. ++Lar: t/c 00:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • Without knowing - i'm guessing that it refers back to this. (and other unsubstantiated claims by TGL about Facebook aquaintances. Btw. i have WMC on my Facebook friends list - but just about the only communication we've had there is WMC complaining about the casual games i play and their spam capacity ;-P [and i'd also add TGL if he asked] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:47, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                • Send me a request, will ya? ++Lar: t/c 14:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Thanks! ++Lar: t/c 23:11, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                • So Kim you say "just about" the only communication you've had "there," which leads me to the obvious follow up questions of what does "just about" entail exactly and what other method do you communicate with William off-wiki? You see, I once asked WMC and another person if he was engaging in meatpuppetry/canvassing and he would not answer the question directly (the other person vanished), which, oddly enough, sufficiently addressed the question in my mind. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Can you please send me certified copies of your last 10 tax statements and all emails and other communication you have sent or received pertaining to the topic of climate change, interpreted broadly? I only want to make sure that you do not get paid and/or coached by Exxon and/or the Saudi government. If you don't, that will, of course, sufficiently answer that question in my mind... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                    • I asked him a "yes or no" question straight up, didn't get a yes or no answer and so I asked again, and he deleted my response. I wasn't asking for private documents, just a simple question, a simple answer and some honesty. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                      • It's not a simple yes-or-no question, its an allegation of wrongdoing demanding a denial. If you think that's acceptable I'm sorry. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                        • Did this deletion happen here? If so, link please? thanks. ++Lar: t/c 23:11, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                          • No, it was on his talk page since he didn't answer straight up from the Afd he magically showed up on.[6] As far as I'm concerned he basically admitted to WP:STALK [7] against me, but I find it highly suspicious that his facebook friend, with a personal interest in the article, wouldn't swear that she didn't engage in meatpuppetry/canvassing regarding Connolley's sudden out-of-character appearence - Connolley's refusal to answer simply "yes" or "no" to the question was quite telling as well. But whatever, I have my own opinion and it doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things.TheGoodLocust (talk) 08:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent> Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that, it is amazing how often a person's facebook friends will show up to defend each other on wiki. I mean, it isn't like there are thousands of wikipedia editors, I'm sure this repeated pattern is just a coicidence. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One of the reasons I switched from Facebook to Twitter was because vague Facebook acquaintances I liked and wanted to respect suddenly started playing noisy and idiotic online games and posting about it, thus handily destroying the board as a communication medium. I grew weary of unfriending the nuisances and stopped logging in. On Twitter if I fancy a —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tasty monster (talk • contribs) 04:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

spot of inanity I look to see what Peter Serafinowicz, a professional comic who is a naturally funny bloke in real life, has been burbling about, and he I don't, l look at one of my more serious lists. Sorted.

Obligatory phone comment: this phone has Facebook installed permanently and I can't remove it. It's a hideous and unnecessary imposition. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 04:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Good Locust's last comment gives me an idea for a Facebook app. WikiDefender, the app that lets you know when your Facebook friends are being lambasted on Wikipedia. I'll get started on the version that splashes the word HELP in huge purple letters on a yellow background all over your inbox. I'm sure that would be immensely popular. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 04:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it purple for SEIU? I think you should incorporate this symbol into your app. TheGoodLocust (talk) 05:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hate those games. I can't believe people actually play Farmville, etc. Why not actually farm (or remove vandalism here) if you like repetitive (and ultimately pointless) tasks so much? But I find that you can filter those sorts of updates out, when you are on via a PC there is an option next to the update to turn off all future updates from that source. So I no longer see MafiaWars, Farmville, etc etc. Only when someone invents a new inanity am I bothered by it for very long. I haven't mastered how to use lists very well on Twitter, but it's for want of investigating. ++Lar: t/c 14:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hypothetical Question #2

If a user were to constantly refer to certain news organizations as BSNBC (MSNBC) or Faux News (Fox News) as a way to denigrate (and thus exclude) such sources from articles then would that be a violation of policy and under which banner would that fall (e.g. WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:SOAPBOX, etc). Sorry if I'm bugging you. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:08, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't seem helpful to use such terms but I'm not sure if there is or isn't a specific policy violation. ++Lar: t/c 13:22, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
in my unsolicited view the use of politically charged epithets like the above is inappropriate. It would be more reasonable to note that the two sources to which you refer are cable news outlets which naturally adopt a politically engaged approach and often present a skewed view of the facts. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 14:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both for the input. TheGoodLocust (talk) 08:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Difficult because some of these nicknames like Torygraph, Gruaniad etc are so widespread as to be used without any particular overtones. --BozMo talk 11:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's an outrageous misspelling! It should of course be the Grauniad, christened at a time of great typos by Christopher Booker's organ Private Eye, which also popularised Torygraph as I recall. In those days the Grauniad also featured great headlines, a favourite being Queen in Brawl at Palace! (see comment 3). . dave souza, talk 13:39, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is an interesting excuse Bozmo, because when I google "Faux News" I get 317k hits (7+ million without the quotes) but when I google "torygraph" I only get 25k hits (and the top 5 include a blog from a wikipedia editor). So, by your logic, it should be alright for editors to constantly refer to it as "Faux News" - that couldn't possibly have an effect on inhibiting a collegial editting environment....TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Inappropriate comment

I am not sure the tagging regime is going to work, or maybe I don't understand how to do it. Could you check the history at WP:GS/CC, as well as User talk:Jehochman and User talk:Unitanode? Tagging seems to invite edit warring. What am I to do when a user removes a tag that I've placed? Tagging may be more incendiary than other alternatives. Jehochman Brrr 04:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • It's only problematic, when you add the tag to edits that weren't inappropriate, Jonathan E. Hochman, as you did in that case. And then, when asked for an explanation after I removed it, you refused and simply readded it. You've anointed yourself the Civility Police (see Malleus' talkpage), and are behaving in belligerent ways that are very unbecoming of someone who seems to hold themselves in such high regard. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • =I'm sorry, I'm kind of distracted by my confirmation discussion over on Meta. ++Lar: t/c 05:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Confirmation? By the way, I neglected to offer my congratulations on your ombudsmanship the other day - the project is lucky to have someone like you around. - 2/0 (cont.) 06:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That view is not necessarily universally shared, as you can see for yourself if you visit meta:Stewards/confirm/2010/Lar ++Lar: t/c 13:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the situation here was rather complicated and the tagging regime probably isn't always going to have problems like this. Unit Anode had been directed by another admin under the probation to address editors by their preferred names, and he regards this as unjust. He also seems to have a personal animus towards admins and particularly Jehochman. He's rather upset. This complicates an otherwise straightforward application of the template. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 14:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He was asked to call the editor Tony, what's so hard about that? Then he made an inappropriate comment about laughing at an administrator that he should have kept to himself. Jehochman was correct that it was an uncivil comment. --CrohnieGalTalk 18:27, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, I'm not interested in defending anyone. I'm simply remarking that this particular incident probably isn't a very good example of how the new tagging regime will work in practice. --TS 22:49, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have not looked at this example but I think the logic of our discussion on tags is that removing a tag placed by an uninvolved admin is an offense which should be warned and then sanctioned. --BozMo talk 11:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just so you know

Hi, please see my talk page, archives too since some was deleted by an administrator, Jeffrey R. MacDonald, administrator Sarek and SRQ's talk page. Things are out of control big time. Now I can't edit an article because she says my edits are bad (see my talk page). I am very angry and left a message for Sarek. I just want to keep you in the loop. I'm leaving now. --CrohnieGalTalk 20:20, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crohnie has been now reported for edit warring. I tried to reason with her and get her to stop - the only one I see out of control is her, to be frank. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 20:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which was dismissed with no action needed. You also said I reverted three times which is not true, I reverted twice which the history will show whereas you did it 5 times. Lar read the comments 2/0 made. She needs to leave me alone. See my archives, her talk page, 2/0 and Sarek's talk page. It's out of control and yes I got mad. I am tired of it all. Sorry, --CrohnieGalTalk 23:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Chronie - grow up and try being honest, please. It was dismissed, but you were still edit warring, regardless of what the outcome was. That much is evident by your wholesale reverts without consideration of the content and the nasty, uncivil edit summaries attached to them. When you were reverting, you didn't care about the article or the encyclopedia - you were just interested in winning against someone, for reasons not understood by me, you see as an enemy. You see, I didn't report you for edit warring so that you would get blocked, I reported you in hopes that you would stop doing what you were doing and step back and rethink your actions and what was driving you to behave in that manner. You weren't paying attention to me and anything I was trying to say to you, so I figured you *would* pay attention and listen if an administrator was involved. Further, I'm pretty certain I never said anything to you about violating 3RR, but just about edit warring. If that's the case, then we have yet another unfounded accusation you have made against me. Sorry you are "tired of it all", but the plain truth is that if you didn't start the majority of the disagreements you find yourself in, you wouldn't have anything to be "tired of". I've tried time and again to get along with you, but you have rebuffed me each and every time only to follow up with more unfounded accusations, incivility, and personal attacks. The ball is once again in your court - what choice will you make this time? --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 00:15, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thought you should know about this. [8] I just found out about it myself. --CrohnieGalTalk 12:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Cox and other Michigan governor candidates

A while ago you did a clean-up of the Mike Cox article, BLP and copyright issues. Would you mind making another sweep through the article and the articles for the other candidates for Michigan Governor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.139.146 (talk) 06:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am afraid I have to decline. I've already formed strong opinions of several of the candidates (beyond the usual) and am not sure I could do a good job. At this point probably we should find a non Michigan resident... or at the least, a team. ++Lar: t/c 12:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Advice please on wp:blp

If you have a moment please look at this [9] I can`t understand why wmc keeps pushing for this blog to be in the articles mark nutley (talk) 12:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It does seem odd to me. I'd have to look a lot more closely than I have time for right now to see if there's actually a reason for it that's valid. I don't think you're taking the right tone on the Talk:Christopher Booker page though. The way you phrased things is kind of confrontational. ++Lar: t/c 12:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I`ll try to use a more neutral tone, But violations of wp:blp are meant to be removed instantly right? How much trouble will i be in if i remove it again? mark nutley (talk) 12:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Depends. Consider, for a second, the situation when you stumble, break a leg, and cannot edit Wikipedia for the next two weeks. Do you think the world will end? Or Wikipedia will end? If not, why not avoid borderline situations and leave them to other editors? See m:Eventualism. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If my leg was broken i`d be sat in front of my computer until it was mended :) But don`t the wp:blp rules say such things should be removed from bio`s asap? mark nutley (talk) 13:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Without commenting on the specific issues of this content, the default position of Wikipedia on potential WP:BLP violations is to immediately remove the material and without waiting for discussion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it. Scienceblogs is not appropriate for a BLP. In fact, that entire BLP needs an overhaul, it's filled with coatracks. ATren (talk) 13:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, as i have your attention could you let me know if this is a wp:rs? [10] as it does not look like one to me, i also think it`s a copyright violation based on the fact that the journal it comes from is subscription only mark nutley (talk) 13:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At a quick skim it seems not likely to be a reliable source, but appearances can be deceiving. There are places to ask for more informed opinions on that and on copyvio. You may want to try one of them. ++Lar: t/c 20:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Having looked at the source I don't think it's suitable for Wikipedia, although I'd hesitate to invoke the BLP in this instance. Unlike, say, RealClimate, Deltoid isn't an expert writing about his field of expertise.

The notion that it's an attack blog seems wide of the mark. The edit warring over use of this source is more worrying, and if it continues beyond the next day or two (allowing for ruffled feathers to settle after what seems to have been a fairly large scale removal of references to the source) I think I might raise an enforcement request. --TS 20:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That seems a good approach to me as well. ++Lar: t/c 20:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have a problem (followup)

moved to be a subtopic

It has been discovered recently that a blog has been used as a wp:rs in various articles. As per wp:rs and wp:blp i have removed these refs from the articles affected. However WMc has been reverting the blog refs back in on the most spurious grounds, saying wp:blp is irrelevent [11] that it is a "useful resource" [12] Although the blog article is in fact an attack on the Natural Resources Stewardship Project. And the links from that blog post is to other attack pieces. There is no way this meets reliability yet WMC insists on using his friends blog as a source. The blog is an attack blog, all the refs i removed were attack pieces. I realize i will now be accused of edit warring but the wp:blp rules clearly say that breachs of it should be removed instantly. Could you please let WMc know that continuing to use his mates blog as a source is not on. Thanks mark nutley (talk) 19:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And just in case you think i`m just being stupid, Tony also believes it should not be used. [13] mark nutley (talk) 19:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With very limited exceptions, blogs are usually not considered reliable sources. Where have you raised this concern? Has it been discussed on the talk page of the article(s) where the blog is being cited? (I see it has). Has this been raised at the enforcement page? Is there a specific action you would like me to take?
Also, as a side note, WMC does not sanction use of other abbreviations, your use of WMc is not correct. You need to exercise great care in your conversations, please do your very best to get all capitalization, punctuation, and spelling absolutely correct. Because if you don't, some folk may use that against you. And it just looks unprofessional and detracts from your message. ++Lar: t/c 19:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS is this the same thing you asked me about above? It makes more sense to keep it with that than start a new section if so. ++Lar: t/c 19:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is the same issue as posted above, sorry about that, The WMC thing is a keyboard problem, it sometimes fails me :) It is an old keyboard i`ve had it about eight years now :) Action wise i would like you to remind WMC that blog`s are not wp:rs i don`t want to have to take another rfe and i am unsure were else to report such a violation? mark nutley (talk) 21:05, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If talk page discussion isn't resolving matters I think you may want to either take this to the reliable sources notice board or open another enforcement request. I am not going to get directly involved in content disputes in this area. ++Lar: t/c 00:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was brought up at the reliable sources board and it is agreed that the sources used do not meet wp:rs I am banned from bringing an RFE against WMC, is there another venue for me to get this issue sorted as he has again this morning reverted my removal of other non wp:rs [14] desmogblog i brought up on the rs notice board and it is agreed it is not wp:rs the other is climateofdenial.net which is also does not meet the criteria for wp:rs mark nutley (talk) 09:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As an impartial admin, I am not going to initiate enforcement actions. You could ask Tony, though, since he agrees. I suggest you put together links to all the specific things you mention (a link to where it was brought up on RS, a link to each of the attempts to engage in discussion, and so forth) as an aid to Tony. If Tony doesn't agree, try someone else. You may quote me when I say that this matter merits being raised at the enforcement noticeboard. ++Lar: t/c 15:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you lar, i have brought the matter to tony and i`ll see what he has to say mark nutley (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tony seems to have responded below, in the negative. Is there still an ongoing issue? ++Lar: t/c 03:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well apart from [15] KDP putting them all back in in this article, and of course SBHB removing stuff as retaliation not really. [16] It would appear i have started a tit for tat war :( mark nutley (talk) 07:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone readds that blog source, let me know on my talk page and I'll initiate an enforcement request. Cla68 (talk) 07:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and by the way it appears that that blog isn't being used as a source in the "Swindle" article, just listed in the external links. I sometimes list unreliable sources in the external links section that have some information on the topic but aren't being used as sources for information in an article. Cla68 (talk) 07:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The main argument was over deltoid [17] I then saw desmogblog was also in external links Cla and as it was an attack piece and not wp:rs i believe it has to go mark nutley (talk) 08:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And now i have JQ reinserting the blogs i removed, [18] I mean sourcewatch as a RS? Or how about this one [19] Exxonsecrets.org, seriously? this is considered a reliable source now? And of course [20] Kim refuses to remove the unreliable sources he reinserted, so whats the point. It would appear that so long as a source denounces a skeptic it`s good enough regardless of policy. I think i`ll just give it up and join the rest of the world in just ridiculing wikipedia for it`s godawful bias mark nutley (talk) 11:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see TS has opined he doesn't see an issue. I'd go through the discussions carefully to see whether that's valid before I opened a request, were I Cla68. In any case, any request opened should articulate clearly what the issue(s) are with crisp diffs so it will be easy for admins to evaluate. Fuzzy requests tend to get deferred with no action. ++Lar: t/c 13:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you clarify COI for me?

If I wanted to reference a blog, which quoted my own blog would that be okay (Or just quote my own blog straight up?)? What if the guy who referenced me was a friend? If I could get two more friends to defend my use of that blog would that make it okay?

Thanks for the help, some of these wikipedia rules don't seem very clear to me. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This seems more of a WP:RS question than a WP:COI but maybe I'm confused. In any case, seems to me that a blog that cited another blog (regardless of who wrote either one) isn't (or at least almost never is) going to be a reliable source and thus shouldn't be (or at least almost never should be) cited. ++Lar: t/c 20:11, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for the insight. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You and Dave souza

Do you think you and Dave could take your differences to user talk? This squabble on the probation enforcement page is a very unwelcome distraction and imposes on the patience of other editors. --TS 20:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dave souza is welcome here any time he wishes, but an important point needed to be made, that he's accused me of various things related to the enforcement actions themselves and that he (and other folk also jumping on that bandwagon) need to either drop those accusations, or pursue proper dispute resolution, instead of casting vague aspersions about embitteredness, grudges and the like... because to bruit about accusations such as he has is exceedingly unhelpful. I said my piece though. What he chooses to do next is up to him. I advise dropping any accusations of any issues related to enforcement. But, that's his call. ++Lar: t/c 20:40, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your concern about this. I'd be very happy if you both dropped it, obviously, but I second your firm demand that Dave, and anybody else making accusations of biased enforcement, follow dispute resolution. --TS 20:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be some misunderstandings here, my comments at the !vote were based on an overall impression of you, not just on the sanctions page. If anything, our interactions here on your user talk page were much more significant. I'm unaware of any rule that I can't voice opinions there when involved in discussions with you elsewhere, and it was inappropriate for you to have raised these comments at the WP:GS/CC/RE page. Contrary to your assertion, I did not bruit about any accusations related to the enforcement actions themselves. I did not make any aspersions about embitteredness, but after you accused me of holding grudges, I responded that you seemed to have a grudge against me. I'm delighted to be assured that you don't. I certainly hope that my concerns about your approach will prove turn out to be unfounded, and that I will be able to support you in any future elections. . . dave souza, talk 17:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK. ++Lar: t/c 18:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scary stuff

See this blog post and think about what it means. I absolutely reject using socks to enter a spoof article, even to prove a point. But how lucky for us that Limey wanted to prove a point, instead of defame a real person. How many real people are being defamed right now because of our failure to do the right thing? ++Lar: t/c 04:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About the same number that are being whitewashed I'd imagine. I found that whole post to be quite amusing and it could be the basis of a book, "Fanfiction: A Wikipedia Story," which would be a collection of hoax articles that the author managed to implant on wikipedia.TheGoodLocust (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whitewashing is also bad. At first glance, anyway, whitewashing seems less harmful. Whether it actually is or not? I do not know. ++Lar: t/c 13:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it certainly isn't as bad from a legal perspective, but from a practical view it may be worse. For example, if someone researched a political candidate on wikipedia, which omitted several unsavory details about that person's past, causing that person to vote for the whitewashed candidate, then the potential damage is far greater than the damage from blackwashing. In short, while blackwashing harms the subject of the article, whitewashing can potentially harm everyone that is victimized by the subject due to the ignorance inflicted on them. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly for the first time ever we agree! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's good, I suspect it is for different reasons, but it is nice to have some common ground. To be clear though, I'm not advocating either white or blackwashing. I think if something is sourced and relevant (the biggest bone of contention), then it should go in. The problem, with regards to whitewashing, is that some people will challenge that "relevant" bit (e.g. WP:WEIGHT), since it is subjective, without understanding that even if they really don't think it is relevant, others may find the omitted facts to be quite important - this problem is made worse by the fact that some trivia really doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And indeed, after some common ground we diverge again, if not radically. We cannot and should not include everything that someone might find important. If it can be sourced, obviously someone somewhere found it important enough to write about it - that does not imply that it belongs into an encyclopedic article. Selecting what belongs and what doesn't is part of our job as editors. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is far better to err on the side of inclusionism, dispelling ignorance in the process, and letting the readers make up their own minds about the importantance and relevance of facts. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What that does is bury the wheat under the chaff. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. That's Google's job. "1+1=2. 1+2=3. Green is green. Blue is bluer than green. All men are created equal. Abba sorts before Beatles in the phone book." All true, but not all equally important. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't? What do you call this? Yes, there should be standards, but the problem is that the partisan will always grab onto the most subjective policies as an excuse for exclusionism because the "cause" comes before enlightenment. I'm sure I could go to the AfD page and find numerous examples of people voting "delete" just because they don't like the content of an article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You probably can. But that's a classical fallacy. "We cannot achieve perfection, therefore let's do nothing." --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not advocating perfection; I'm advocating information. The simple fact of the matter is that subjective policies will objectively be abused more than the clear-cut policies, and as such, these subjective policies should be considered with a huge grain of salt - especially when consistently pushed by obvious POV SPAs. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But what you call "subjective policies" is exactly what transforms information into knowledge. Information is cheap - properly organizing a and presenting is is what adds value. And that includes the selection of what to present. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia can only communicate information; knowledge is up to the individual. Selectively presenting information in order to mold the "knowledge" a person wants to communicate is simply propaganda and such easy impulses should be resisted by the fair-minded. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Cla68 (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing." --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:25, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A nice PR statement, totally at odds with the philosophy of exclusionism, but little more. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Raising the subject of whitewashing here introduces a false dichotomy. The Wikipedia approach is to write accurate and well sourced articles. Having a zero-tolerance approach to poor sourcing is how we aim to achieve that on articles that involve statements about living persons. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 14:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I seee it as a false dichotomy. Can you elaborate why? I merely see it as the other side of the same coin, but whitewashing is not nearly as deleterious to the victim as blackwashing. I agree that a zero-tolerance approach to poor sourcing is one of the tools in the arsenal but it's a hard tool to use in the current political climate. ++Lar: t/c 14:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I refer to the introduction of a whitewashing concern as a false dichotomy is that it is a false dichotomy. Asking for tight sourcing on biographies of living persons doesn't result in, and isn't related to, whitewashing. Putting it that way distorts the intent of the policy and expresses, obliquely, a misconception about what Wikipedia is about.

Specifically, we don't do gossip, rumors, stuff somebody wrote on a blog, nonsense in some newspaper that more reliable sources challenge, and whatnot. Removing poorly sourced facts isn't whitewashing, attempts to associate our strong content policy regarding living people with whitewashing, "the other side of the same coin", are misleading, and in particular discussing whitewashing in a discussion ostensibly about laxness in our content policies, is a waste of time.

Note that I wrote the above comment at 1403 yesterday. Perhaps predictably, discussion since then has been about how our content policies should be more lax, permit "inclusionism" (excluding fewer facts under due weight) not how they can be enforced. This argument was settled long ago in a deletion discussion about a pretty young high school athlete whose name I (and nearly every body else) no longer remembers. --TS 19:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most recent A7 deletion of pretty young high school athlete - Jan 10, 2010. Hipocrite (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Who is saying we shouldn't use tight sourcing? I almost always use the best sources available. But hey, I think examples work better than words and so I ask that you consider the following situation about a little known politician and the omissions in her biography:
1 In her first political race she hired a lawyer to knock the names of her competitors off the ballot - in future elections she ran under an inclusionist/pro-democracy platform. Should we include this fact and let the obvious hypocricy speak for itself?
2 This candidate had little experience in the private sector, something her opponents pointed out, and while the article mentions her minimal experience slightly, it doesn't mention the fact that her sole venture into the arena failed completely under her leadership (costing a massive amount of money). Is such information about the effects of a person's leadership important?
These are just a few things and are well sourced, but the small clique in charge her article will never allow such content to stand. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the case of a little-known politician, we'd need an exceptionally good reason to include points like those you describe in any Wikipedia article. A national scandal over those activities, for instance. They are typical of the kind of dirt that political streetfighters enjoy digging up, but unless there is a wider significance than that we don't include them, because if we did we'd simply become a mouthpiece for that kind of person and that kind of politics. We're not that, we're an encyclopedia. --TS 22:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
? It is a fact that this person engaged in highly undemocratic actions, even getting a civil rights activist thrown off the ballot in the race, and you think it is appropriate not to mention this? It was covered in newspapers and in the public record. As for point two, her company admitted that it failed miserably under her leadership, while not wording it that way it should probably be mentioned since it was the only type of experience she had in an area she was criticized for lacking experience in. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:51, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Taking the situation as you have described it, I confirm that Wikipedia would not carry this kind of information on a candidate. Perhaps that is because of the obviously loaded terms you have used to describe the situation. Obviously we can't discuss the specifics, but your phrase "hired a lawyer to knock the names of her competitors off the ballot" could apply to a quite innocent situation in which a candidate's campaign manager or lawyer correctly challenged the eligibility of other proposed candidates on sound grounds. This is why we must use only the best sourcing and consider due weight. --TS 22:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
lol, I suspect you must know who I am talking about (or someone told you). Sorry, but I think integrity is important in a politician and when newspapers talk about how a person who claims to be pro-democracy elimates her competitors using legal manueverings then I think that is quite relevant and important. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know who you're talking about and I don't need to know. The level of newspaper coverage, and its nature, would of course be an important consideration. --TS 23:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"I think integrity is important in a policitian" - that is a POV, widely shared but still a POV. The problem arises when you (the royal you) wish to selectively emphasize those facts which would lead the reader to the conclusion you desire them to draw. Franamax (talk) 23:34, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Selectively emphasize facts? No, not at all, I'm just saying at the very least they should be mentioned. The hypocricy in the article I mentioned was overwhelming, they made a big deal about a stupid promise that she made, and then when she broke it they removed all reference to the promise and the breaking of it. It really was ridiculous. TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BLPs are different. In those articles, we err on the side of caution and "do no harm" when it comes to negative information. I agree with you, however, on being more open to all sides in other articles. Cla68 (talk) 01:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing in WP:BLP that is the equivalent of the Hippocratic Oath - if it is reliably sourced and relevant than it goes in. Rewriting or omitting significant portions of a person's history, like how they controversially won their first political race, is a much bigger problem - especially when people come here to be reliably informed about their political candidates. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

your recent notes

In regards to your recent comments on this, Stephan Schultz is definitely not an uninvolved admin. furthermore, in a recent discussion, he took the word "civility" and asserted that it is not important compared to other priorities. that's right. the sad thing is that he doesn’t even realize how injurious it is to one's own case any time one takes a stand against ANY abstract virtue, especially one of primary importance. it's like two congressmen arguing on the floor of the House, and one of them saying that "honesty" is not as important as running the country. you're supposed to say how your own actions are in CONCERT with our most central beliefs...not glibly bemoan the fact that some people seem to think civility is "more" important [or more accurately, AS important] as "writing an encyclopedia." --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See his talk, if you have not. ++Lar: t/c 16:36, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PROD Restorations

Lar,

Thanks for helping restore challenged PRODs. It would be even more helpful if you could remove the PROD tag while userifying them, as old prods will jump to the top of the WP:PRODSUM list, and may result in erroneous redeletion, but certainly looks a bit messy. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 19:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These were deleted PRODS, rather than challenged ones. Aeron is supposed to clean those up as I restore them, that was our agreement. If it's not done fairly shortly for this batch I'll see about taking care of it. Thanks for letting me know. ++Lar: t/c 21:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Wakes up, goes to work, sees watchlist, sees users wondering why I don't respond the second of, makes witty talk page comment about having a life outside of volunteer projects, moves along* ^_^  æronphonehome  01:48, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, I forgot to ping you about it, my bad. Sorry. ++Lar: t/c 04:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
S'cool, all done now.  æronphonehome  19:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I should have the last batch for you tomorrow I think. Will try to remember to ping you. ++Lar: t/c 20:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Enough is enough

I have gone out of my way to not comment on the user since your admonition not to. Please take a minute to peruse her talk page at how many times she has made comments about me, either specifically or has repeated her litany of sins she has charged me with, including most recently. I served my block time, I've followed your admonitions even in the face of her continuing to rake me over the coals. While she is blocked, I even spoke up to support her opposition to something on an article talk page, even when I disagreed with her, only to be disparaged for doing so by her. She even insinuated that Beyond My Ken twitches her "sock" nose. Why is this editor allowed to rant and rave and disparage other editors even while she is sitting out a block for personal attacks and harassment and nothing further be done about it? Do I remain scum even after serving my block time? We've submitted identification to show we are not the same person. LaVidaLoca posted a note on her talk page admitting to being the one who did it and saying she regretted causing me or others trouble. Does it ever stop or do administrators allow an editor to continue to bad-mouth someone she clearly despises? You know, each and everytime she does this (and I have a dozen examples where it has happened since you said not to comment on the other) she gains license to do it the next time, and it gets worse each time. PLEASE do something about this. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:14, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's clear now that my informal separation isn't working... something else needs to be done to address the issues here. I also think you've done a good job of doing your best to comply with the requests I made of you. I had contacted a few folk offline to ask them to take a look but I think it may be time to take this to AN/I if we cannot come to grips with this. I don't know if that helps. ++Lar: t/c 19:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I think this is entirely germane to the AN/I thread that is going on now, and some of these comments are being made in response to that, although I have not commented. I certainly would like to. Would you like me to send the diffs of the violations I've seen or been told about? Crohnie is certainly being raked over the coals about being friends with me. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not going to hold you or her to this restriction any longer. Nice idea, it was worth a try, but it isn't working. If you want to self restrict yourself that's fine but feel free to resume commenting as you see fit, subject only to the normal expectations we have of everyone. Thanks for trying. ++Lar: t/c 19:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there sufficient evidence to clear WHL of being LVL, or is there still a question of guilt? Clearing this up could help. -FeralDruid (talk) 22:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Information received privately is being evaluated but I'm not prepared to say. ++Lar: t/c 13:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Lar, I wanted to make one final comment to that AN/I thread but unfortunately I got horribly sick and got rushed to ER by ambulance on Tuesday night and didn't return until Friday afternoon. I would like to know how to get her talk page deleted of all the cut and pastes and the commentaries that shouldn't be there. The block expires today I think, which is fine, but the talk page there is so unacceptable, what can be done, if anything? Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 15:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you're feeling a bit better now... People have wide latitude on their own talks, unless the material is really disruptive, in which case I think usually an MfD is initiated. I would first start by asking SRQ to remove the problematic material. Failing that, another possible approach is to take the matter to WP:WQA. You could also raise it at ANI I guess. This is not a very clear cut area. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 03:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'm weak but doing a lot better, can't wait to lose the steriods though. :) Listen I don't want to get back into it with her on all of this. It's exhausting as you know. I'm sure you've read her page by now, how can that be acceptable? I'm going to wait just a bit to see what is done with it and then I guess I'll have to figure out how to handle everything. Thanks again, --CrohnieGalTalk 10:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLVIII (February 2010)

The February 2010 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 22:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User:NoCal100

Note: This relates to NoCal100 (talk · contribs · global contribs · logs · block log) ++Lar: t/c 19:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Lar, User:NoCal100 was placed under an editing restriction indefinitely [21] in May of 2009. The user then tried to evade the ban by creating few socks, and was blocked indefinitely in June of 2009.

I am far from trying to come up with the justifications of the user actions, yet I am a strong believer in the giving a person a second chance. I looked at the user contributions. He wrote 10 articles that became DYK. I emailed to the user, and the user promised to comply with all and every edit restriction, if he/she is allowed to return. I am sure that Wikipedia will benefit from the user contributions, if the user would be allowed to get the second chance. What do you think?

Thank you for your time. --Mbz1 (talk) 17:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mbz1: (I edited your comment a bit to get rid of all the brs) Here's what I said when you asked me about this matter in an email, with a bit of elaboration.
The typical process for coming back is to find someone willing to mentor (that's you), find an admin or two to support, and then raise the matter at the appropriate admin notice board seeking consensus for a trial return. A discussion at the user's talk page is also an approach. In cases where there has been socking a key point is to establish WHY assertions of no further socking should be believed.
The user should consider the "Standard Offer" in which they first establish a history of peaceful and productive editing at another wiki. (Do you know if they've been editing elsewhere and how it went?... this suggests they have not been editing elsewhere at least not under their name). Note that this user was considered a pretty hardened POV warrior in their past incarnation. Since they engaged in rhetoric strongly critical of me at the time, I may not be the best choice for an impartial judge of their subsequent actions.
My interpretation may be incorrect on some of this, don't take just my word for it. I'd rather see this discussed on my talk page if possible, as it will draw informed comment from some of my talk page watchers. Hope that helps. Kind of you to consider helping with this matter. Best. ++Lar: t/c 19:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Thank you so much. I will try to find out if the user is contributing to any other Wikipedia. Best wishes.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:00, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The user has not been contributing to any other Wikipedia. Is there a way to have the user back here on probation without them contribution to other Wikipedias? Thank you.--Mbz1 (talk) 16:31, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps. if they want to come back they should place a note explaining matters on their talk page and then place an unblock request template. If they can't edit their talk page, they can mail unblock-en-l. ++Lar: t/c 18:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your note

Let's step back and look at everything. He came along to the Mary Pickford article and changed the image that was being used, which was a "restored" version with heavy touchups that removed the photographer's mark that someone on Wikipedia uploaded over a perfectly valid historical image of Pickford. I returned the original view with an edit summary that said "original has historic significance; "restored" removes author's mark & benchmark border, it is a significant image." Before I had completed my talk page post abou it, he then posted to the talk page "This was an inappropriate edit. The restored image is clearer and better serves readers." My reply here outlined what was wrong with the retouched photo, including removing the photographer's mark and that the over touching flattened the image and removed depth to it. He asked Durova to comment on it and she said here that personally, she'd like to delete all instances like this that retouch historically significant images and also that "One of the obstacles to acquiring digital media is the concern that radical edits would alter historic material without documentation. There are many encyclopedic subjects that we cannot illustrate adequately; it is vital to earn the trust of curators in order to illustrate certain topics." Other editors posted to agree with that. He didn't respond further. Then he changed color code to a table under the edit summary of "mo-betta-icky-colours". I changed the table heading to separate the 3 merged tables and asked him to take it up with WP:ACTOR, saying to him on my talk page to kindly explain (to the project) what is wrong with the code they are using. He did not do that, but went to the WP:ACTOR main page and changed the coding there without posting anything to that group talk page at all. WP:ACTOR and WP:FILM set style guidelines for the articles under them, which has never been challenged or shot down, to my knowledge. He then said about the project "not that I much care what that wiki-project thinks. They, and you, own exactly zero articles." and "Wikiprojects do not govern anything; they're just clubs." He then reverted an image change that I had reverted on Jane Fonda, which took it back to a cropped image of her that was taken more than 15 years ago and removed a recent image, saying "Bzzzt; Cannes photo is perfectly acceptable". and followed that with accusations of ownership and proceeded to follow my recent contributions around and changed the table code on them. I made a talk page post on Jane Fonda regarding that, too. Now, if you don't see that as dismissive and arrogant and talking down to me, I'm sorry, but I do. I asked him to explain what was wrong with the code, explain it to the project so it could be addressed and gave valid reasons for what and made talk page posts about it what I did and all I got back was charges of ownership and dismissal of the project that oversees actor biographies to ensure consistency and style as a club that means nothing. I see this from an entirely different perspective - that of being overrun and dismissed. Explanation of the coding changes did not come forth, explaining it to the project did not come forth and he proceeded to revert a valid change I made to the image came next, with no explanation why he thinks a 15 year old photo of a currently working actress was better than one from 2005. Wildhartlivie (talk) 18:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. Change your approach. You need to be kinder and gentler. My warning stands. ++Lar: t/c 19:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa

Regarding your note, did you happen to actually read what he said to me? He first posted "Please get on the right path, here." To which I responded civilly, although I did point out that he changed dates to a British style for an American biography contrary to WP:ENGVAR. His reply included "That would be a technical explanation and I don't see you as a technical person and would expect the details of poor markup to be outside your domain; most of the WP:ACTOR crowd's, too, I expect, as they seem to have promoted invalid code for years and have burdened the project with several hundred thousand tables that are malformed. Sigh; it's a wiki; they let anyone edit, regardless of competence." Note I asked him more than one time yesterday to explain, to me and to the WP:ACTOR "crowd" what was wrong with the code and he refused and then today basically insulted the whole bunch of us. He ended his post with "get thee to a beach with a bucket; the tide's trying to come in." I find that insulting and demeaning, I'm really sorry if you don't, but being talked down to that way is unacceptable. I was not nearly as rude to him as he was to me. Again, I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but I do. You didn't listen to me yesterday about the tone of his posts, but I see them as demeaning and talking down to me and essentially calling me too stupid to understand what he did post to User talk:Equazcion. A little WP:AGF here, considering I was being dismissed and called stupid, but in a "nice", wordy way. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. Change your approach. You need to be kinder and gentler. My warning stands. ++Lar: t/c 01:03, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, I'm sorry if you don't see that the editor was insulting and demeaning to me, but that's how I see it and I started the thread with being civil to him. After that, I removed his post to my talk page after that and he reverted it to insult me. He took the left turn with his comments about my ability to understand "technicalities" but Equaczion was deemed capable. Please note that Equazcion posted to my talk page in response to your note with "I can't say who started with the rude language but Jack wasn't a complete angel about that either." Apparently I'm not the only one who saw his comments as less than nice. I'm not entirely sure why he can slide by with what he said and I get warned when I didn't deliberatly insult his intelligence. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"He started it" is what I expect my kids to say (except they've grown out of that now). This is not an isolated incident. Change your approach. You need to be kinder and gentler. My warning stands. ++Lar: t/c 01:38, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Archiving

Now that you've reduced the size of this page from a ridiculous 468,170 bytes to a merely worrying 96,699 bytes, I think it's a good time to ask you to review your archiving policy. If somebody needs to hold a personal discussion with you concerning Wikipedia, he shouldn't have to wait for a long time while his web browser downloads a stupidly large amount of data that has little or no current relevance. --TS 00:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I used to archive more frequently (twice a month) but found that it wasn't needed. Recently there's been a pickup in the traffic volume here, I may want to switch back to that. Everything still on this page has at least one comment this month. It's a busy page. Let me think on it. ++Lar: t/c 01:05, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You could always use a "clearing house" system; before archiving send pending/winding down discussions to a sub page. Something like User talk:Tony Sidaway. I am sure that would be a fair and equitable resolution. LessHeard vanU (talk) 02:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sending unproductive discussions to my talk page would certainly ensure that they were given a swift and efficient dispatch. --TS 02:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quite. I think we are far apart on the "indulgence spectrum", but I also think that's OK. ++Lar: t/c 03:25, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just putting this out to anyone, if you have a problem with someone's talk page don't use it. Invite them to come to yours, don't bitch that another person with different methods of operation doesn't do things exactly as you do. And as an aside, if your internet can't handle a text document that might be another problem entirely and not necessarily any one user's fault.  æronphonehome  15:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nod. The counterpoint to that, of course, is that as an admin (and functionary), my talk page needs to be at least marginally usable by all comers, as someone who otherwise might not visit here (to participate in the "salon" aspect, the free ranging discussion that goes on here) may want to raise a matter, or more importantly, may want to question an action I've done. I cannot take the position that they should go elsewhere. Of course, adding a new section doesn't require viewing the entire page. So, something to keep in mind (although I do agree with the theme of your comment, thanks for the "PSA" as you called it. :) ). ++Lar: t/c 15:58, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Blog stuff

While I'm not following too closely, the blog removal discussions now seem to be more jaw jaw than war war, so that's just fine. I expect everybody can see the importance of following our tradition of strong sourcing standards, especially in this field. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 00:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewing it again in the light of Mark's comments, my impression is unchanged. the parties are working out how a stricter interpretation of content policies should work, and I'm happy enough to see that happen. As yet this is far removed from the ugliness of the Booker sourcing discussion. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 08:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Archiving 2

If anybody knows how to start a new section on a page without first downloading the page, do let me know. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 00:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you can set a bookmark to this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lar&action=edit&section=new and then change the page target by hand for whatever page it is you want to post to. That's what I do on my BB. I've asked some questions on the MiszaBot talk page, if I can figure out how to get it to do what I want I will consider using it to do ongoing archiving but I like having indexed archives, so your scheme of just relying on history won't work for me. ++Lar: t/c 03:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds ghastly. I think I'll just grit my teeth and download the whole page. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 08:33, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind?

If you have a moment could you protect the articles Sandra Bullock and James Cameron? There is a lot of WP:BLP and general vandalism going on at a rate that I've personally never seen before. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 11:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I didn't have time to look into that. LMK if there still is an action item. Hopefully someone else did by now? ++Lar: t/c 05:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's ok, I wasn't spending a lot of time here for a bit myself. I just took a peek and the Bullock one has been taken care of and is protected. We still could use it at the James Cameron article if you have a moment. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 16:09, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm seeing a persistent pattern of reversion. The vandalism is mostly nuisance but it's all from IP's. This is an important BLP. Prior protection for short periods has been tried, and failed. 3 months semi. ++Lar: t/c 21:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree and thank you. --CrohnieGalTalk 09:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notification

I have co-filed (with Cla68) an arbitration issue in which you are involved. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you are involved, and have made a statement to that effect on the ArbCom page. Cla68 (talk) 01:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can go either way on that, SBHB involved me by tossing some unfounded allegations at me. I commented. I'm missing the part about how it's a co-filing. Is it? You're the filer, you'd know. ++Lar: t/c 05:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

supports the overwhelming scientific consensus on global warming

But, Lar, you don't support it - you believe it, fine, but you don't support it. If you were trying to make Wikipedia's articles more accurate - make it so they reflected the sum of all human knowledge, that would be different. In this case, I'll admit that you're not actively supporting individuals who want our articles to reflect things counter to the sum of all human knowledge, but you're certainly not doing anything to stop them, or help the people trying to stop them. Hipocrite (talk) 13:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I certainly do "support" it, in accordance with our principles of NPOV and not giving things undue weight. I just don't "support" it the way that those acting invalidly, in violation of those principles do. This distinction seems to escape you, apparently. So that name applies to me, and to the vast majority of all editors. Therefore it's not a good choice as it does not distinguish much. ++Lar: t/c 16:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
{{fact}}. Hipocrite (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review WMC's block log, just to pick one data point. There are others. ++Lar: t/c 17:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong statement - "no, I certainly do "support" it, in accordance with our principles of NPOV and not giving things undue weight."{{fact}} Hipocrite (talk) 17:12, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given that I don't edit in the area, I can't point to edits by me, in that area, that support the principle. But it's a principle that applies to all areas. Feel free to find edits contradicting my opinion of my approach. The reason I didn't pick up that was what you were questioning was that I didn't think that you'd doubt me. ++Lar: t/c 20:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, I don't doubt that if you did anything to help, you'd help. I merely note that you haven't done anything to help - this is not a fault of yours, it's merely a statement of fact. You don't support the overwhelming scientific consensus as an editor. That's not a fault - it's just that you've chosen not to do so, which, of course, is fine. Hell, at this point, I hardly do so myself, so I don't think saying you don't is at all casting stones, or at all saying that you wouldn't support it if you were to edit. Hipocrite (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I support policy. If by "support overwhelming global consensus" you mean something along the lines of "and do whatever it takes to keep all other viewpoints completely marginalised" as well as "and ensure that everything appears monolithic to the point of doggedly opposing changes in names of articles" then you are correct, that's not the way I edit. Nor will I. This is the same question asked before, I'm afraid. The Science Club has no room for people who won't edit a certain way, regardless of whether they personally agree or not. ++Lar: t/c 21:11, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On WP:NPOV, what it is, and how to apply it

People don't seem to understand that Neutral Point of View and neutral are two completely different things. In so far as I understand policy, WP:NPOV says that editors should be neutral and articles should be biased. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's the worst misreading of the decade, I'd argue. Hipocrite (talk) 17:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, this is where a lot of the disagreement is coming from. Editors don't understand the policy. It took me a while to get it, too, and even I occasionally forget. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:47, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of misunderstandings, AQFK, were you under the impression that Wikipedia:Systemic bias described a Good Thing? You really don't seem to have got it. . . dave souza, talk 18:04, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't until someone explained WP:NPOV to me at the WP:NPOVN that it finally clicked. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Biases

(undent) Whoever explained that NPOV means our articles should be biased to you should be shot. Please link to that explanation. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 18:15, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let me try to explain it this way. Should the article on evolution be biased against creationism? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:21, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No. Hipocrite (talk) 18:22, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That wasn't the answer I was expecting so can you explain your reasoning? Are you using Wikipedia's definition of bias or the dictionary's? If it helps, my question is using the dictionary's definition. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Bias - "Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective." Our article on "Evolution" is not biased towards Creationsim - it does not say "An alternative scientific theory is Creationism." It is not biased against creationism - it dosen't say "A pressure group supported by the tobacco and oil lobbies has used creationism as a wedge issue to isolate respectable scientists from public opinion." It reports neutrally what reliable sources say without bias. Hipocrite (talk) 18:28, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, per WP:FRINGE, it's probably not mentioned at all. Let's try something different. If the article on creationism biased against creationism or is it given its fair day in court? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article on creationism should report neutrally what reliable sources say without bias. Hipocrite (talk) 18:36, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're using Wikipedia's definitions of neutral and bias. I'm using the dictionary's. This doesn't appear to be going anywhere either. Anyway, the discussion on WP:NPOVN is here.[22]. My initial posts are pretty clueless, but in my defence I only had an account for about a month. It wasn't until Protonk's explanation that it finally clicked. Baccyak4H explanation is also pretty good. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Protonk wrote ""Neutrality" means a fair and non-biased representation of what is out there. It doesn't mean that we introduce a bias to counter an imbalance in the facts or the views on a matter. There is no equal time provision on wikipedia. We do not define neutrality on the basis of "sides" to an issue." Baccak4h wrote "the choice of the word "bias" here carries connotations that may be better avoided by saying represent or reflect rather than biased to." No one there says that article should be biased. They say that points of view should be described in proportion to their significant in reliable sources per WP:WEIGHT. That you misunderstood them there is the same as here. Hipocrite (talk) 19:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If 70% of sources say Climategate is a scandal and 30% say it's not, then the article should be written with an approximate 70%-30% mix. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of sources weighted according to? And what of the ones who don't mention it? How many sources explicitly refute that Elvis has been resurrected versus those who have seen him? Which is only an analogy to make the point that not all sources are equal, with no extended analogy intended... --BozMo talk 19:56, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not correct. The article should be written neutrally, neither stating that it is a scandal or is not a scandal, rather stating that sources say A and sources say B, and not taking a position on the scandal or lack of scandal. Hipocrite (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right. But it would violate UNDUE to either spend more than half, or essentially nothing at all, of the article on the viewpoint that it's not a scandal, wouldn't it? We don't have to get to 70/30 by any means but we can't ignore minority views OR overweight them excessively. ++Lar: t/c 20:17, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. The article should be neutral, but if the actual distribution of sources is 70% scandal 30% not scandal the perfect article should reference sourced information about scandal to non-scandal in a 7:3 ratio, and an acceptable article should weight more to the scandal side. However, the article itself should not take a position on scandal or not scandal. Hipocrite (talk) 20:21, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with everything you said except possibly your last sentence. It depends on whether there's any serious dispute that it's not a scandal. If there is no serious dispute, we're supposed to state it as a fact per WP:ASF. Without having analyzed the sources carefully, I would say that the POV that there is no scandal is a minority opinion, bordering on fringe. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:30, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On taking positions

(out) Articles can't take positions. They just can't. That's a key principle here, one of the foundational ones. When you see an article taking a position it needs fixing, badly. What we CAN do is present the facts and let the reader decide. If the vast preponderance of sources support one position (that the earth is round) that is how much emphasis we should give that view... and we should give only a passing mention at best to competing positions (that the earth is flat). Where the GW articles have went in the weeds is not in the base presentation of information about AGW itself. The basic science is pretty clear, and a preponderance of sources support the science, and it's right and proper that the scientific articles have a preponderance of material. Where the editors working in this area have went in the weeds, in my view, is in covering the material around the science. GW as a topic is much more than the science, and the lead article covering only the science is the wrong emphasis. Further, resistance to covering that there is some question about some data (not enough to undermine the basic thesis, but some question) that got a lot of coverage, and resistance to calling things certain names, resistance to presenting information about controversial side issues, resistance to presenting information on why this was even studied in the first place and the like, these are all distracting issues. This sort of side issue resistance makes the whole thing look suspect to some. Those who fight tooth and nail to control things, to keep this sort of thing out, do their cause a disservice. ++Lar: t/c 04:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a science graduate lurking here who has largely avoided the area of GW, I want to say that I understand and broadly endorse Lar's position on this issue. This issue has unfortunately become conflated with the culture wars, wars that should have been over decades ago. Science never did stand outside of society, and this area is a particularly good example of why pretending it does has done our coverage and our collective sanity as a community no favors. --John (talk) 04:17, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
John, I would like to highlight several problems in your comment. First, many of the climate deniers who call themselves scientists are not climate scientists. While we would agree that a psychiatrist, a dentist, and a cardiologist know something about medicine, you would not go to a dentist if you were having a heart attack, nor would you go to a psychiatrist if you required a root canal. Second, the culture war you refer to concerns itself with the sciences versus the humanities, or hard vs. soft. This has little to nothing to do with the topic under discussion. Lastly, there is no real "debate" about whether climate change is occurring. The debate concerns politicians and the governments they represent, and the choices they make to respond to the change. This has little to nothing to do with the science, and was appropriately left out of that topic. Viriditas (talk) 06:12, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Viriditas, I understand the distinction you are making and it is a valid one, up to a point. However, as a general principle, our articles on scientific phenomena need to take account of societal factors around the science. To state otherwise seems like a false dichotomy to me. The idea that the two fields can be totally separated like this is the relic of the culture wars that I was referring to above. --John (talk) 06:35, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
John, I understand the point you are making, but from where I stand, it appears you are arguing for the politicization of science. I'm afraid I fail to see the benefit of such an approach. Perhaps you could point me to a few FA or GA articles that you feel meet the standard of excellence in this regard. Have you thought this through? The end result is that your proposal would entail expanding content on the social disruption caused by climate change, which I can easily do. Something tells me this is not what you had in mind. Viriditas (talk) 06:50, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But, some of the climate change skeptics are climate scientists, aren't they? What I have observed, and I think Lar is referring to, is that some editors here have refused to allow their opinions to be given any coverage in related articles, have denounced their books and papers as "unreliable", and in some cases, have even tried to add disparaging or negative information to their BLP articles. Not good. Remember, we (WP) don't care if the IPCC's opinion on climate change is true or not. We just don't. We just report on what people are saying about the issue in the RS. All sides must be represented according to their weight in the media. Lately, skeptical viewpoints have been getting a lot of reporting in the media. Cla68 (talk) 07:03, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To paraphrase Stephen Schneider, all good scientists are skeptics, so any scientist who looks at the evidence and denies it, is accurately called a denier. What percentage of climate change scientists are deniers? Is it very small? If it is, then we write articles in proportion to the number of claimants, not the number of sensationalistic media articles beholden to their advertisers, pushing a campaign of doubt against the scientific consensus. The "weight" in the media is manufactured, and does not weigh more than the scientific consensus nor the scientific evidence. In fact, the "media" is probably the last place we should be looking for sources on this topic given their poor history of covering scientific topics like climate change. See for example: Conway & Oreskes (2010); Hoggan & Littlemore (2009);Boykoff, McCright, Shwom, Willman (2009). Viriditas (talk) 09:02, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We are a general interest encyclopedia. Not a science encyclopedia. Views in the popular media are germane, and belong in the lead article, not marginalised. Discerning readers will realise the popular media is full of it, if indeed they are (which I believe they are when they give credence to those who question the very fact that there is warming going on). We do not need to coddle or protect our readers, and it is suppressive to do so. You are arguing for not reporting on what reliable sources are saying. That's wrong. Fundamentally. ++Lar: t/c 18:23, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Viriditas, I find your naivete almost touching. The politicization of science, eh? (Dreadful article btw, really needs some work). In a world where science was politicized, we would have things like philosophers being condemned to death, great scientists being executed on petty trumped-up charges, Nobel laureates getting involved in making weapons of mass destruction, governments employing scientists to make same, and even politicians with no background in science restricting the scope of scientific research. Thank goodness we don't live in such a world! --John (talk) 15:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, care to mention a single fact I'm arguing we shouldn't report? Just one, please. Which views of the popular media am I suppressing? And, just what is a "view of the popular media"? Please specify. Since I have said nothing of the kind, you won't find any. And John? You've had enough green beer. Viriditas (talk) 21:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I am not understanding what you are asking me, not exactly. Perhaps I'm not being clear and you're not understanding me. You, I think, assert that the fact that the popular media have views about AGW shouldn't be reported, or at least, not in the main article, or not with the weight they have in the media, correct? If that's so I don't agree. If it's not so, what are you asserting? As for " And John? You've had enough green beer. " you may be snarky to me here as much as you like, that's the way this page goes, but no being incivil to other guests, please. I think you were just joking but in case you weren't, please keep that in mind, thanks. ++Lar: t/c 21:35, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then, neither of us understand each other. You say the popular media have views about AGW, and you say that I claim they shouldn't be reported. I don't believe I said that. I said, they should be reported in proportion to their claimants, and that the popular media has a very poor track record on the subject of climate change; That statement about the media was supported by three books as refs in the above, and some of that information (Boykoff et al.) was peer reviewed. Are you saying that the opinions of climate scientists are equal to, let's say, Myron Ebell[23]? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying. That kind of argument is a dead end. Jenny McCarthy is not an expert on autism no matter how much she talks about it, and her views on the subject are not on the same level as a research scientist. Viriditas (talk) 21:46, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nevertheless, the autism article should cover the fact that she has a (whacked, as shown by reliable sources) view about the matter and what it's led to (again from reliable sources).... not just because it's her view, but because of the credence her view is given and the problems it has caused. Not just marginalise it off to the side in the hope that people will not notice that some people think vaccination is a bad idea or what have you. Again, we are a general interest encyclopedia, and we cover what is mentioned in reliable sources. It may be helpful to re-read the lead post in this subsection again and see if you agree or disagree with it. ++Lar: t/c 22:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, are you serious? That's the same logic used by schools who insist that the biblical genesis should be taught as a rebuttal to evolution. I don't have anything against bible studies, it's a fascinating field, but do you expect me to believe that the bible and Darwin should be taught as complements to each other? What does Jenny McCarthy have to do with the subject of autism? It's the same Myron Ebell has to do with climate science: Nothing. Viriditas (talk) 22:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's start over. Reread the first post. Agree or disagree with it? Because I don't think that schools insisting on teaching genesis in science classes is at all equivalent. Again, our article on evolution doesn't need to present creationism as a valid alternative theory. There is no basis for doing so. No reliable sources say that it is. But our article on evolution (since we are a general interest encyclopedia) should present information about how schools are doing foolish things, and on what people think about that. Reliably sourced. Because evolution as a topic of general interest has more context than just the science. Marginalizing that off to the corner does general readership a disservice. This, by the way, is not teach the controversy as used by creationists, and if you think it is, you're not getting what I'm saying yet. ++Lar: t/c 22:35, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You write, "where the editors working in this area have went in the weeds, in my view, is in covering the material around the science. GW as a topic is much more than the science, and the lead article covering only the science is the wrong emphasis." Just looked at Politics of global warming. What's the problem? Viriditas (talk) 22:37, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Politics of global warming isn't the lead article on the topic. It's a fork. global warming is the lead article. (some forks are for good and valid reasons, due to our use of summary style, but it's a fork nonetheless) ++Lar: t/c 00:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I too am curious about the remark "GW as a topic is much more than the science, and the lead article covering only the science is the wrong emphasis." First, I and many others in the science cabal agree with you. Second, a crude word count shows that global warming is about 60% science and 40% "other stuff." Were you perhaps thinking of a different article? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I counted the lead paragraphs in global warming, the lead article. It has 4. The last one, by far the smallest, with probably well less than 20% of the total word count of the lead as a whole, although I didn't measure it (if I had I bet I'd be reporting an even smaller number) is the only one that isn't strictly science. IMHO, anyway. Wrong emphasis. Further, it's weak, it talks about mitigation options. Not impacts. IMHO, anyway. The article probably ought to be 70/30 other stuff/science, and that ought to be reflected in the lead. IMHO, anyway. ++Lar: t/c 00:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A request for assistance with an article

Cla68, to address your claims about people who have "tried to add disparaging or negative information to BLP articles", I hope you'll make a sincere effort to support cleanup on Stephen Schneider, which appears to be a complete hack job. For comparison, please see Richard Lindzen. Viriditas (talk) 10:00, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'm concentrating on blogs right now. I'm currently working on DeSmogBlog to try to get it to GA. While I'm doing that, I've asked WMC and a few other editors to expand and improve the Watts Up With That article. Judging from the article history, they appear to be intensely involved in doing so. Once I'm done with DeSmogBlog, I'm going to join in with their effort on the Watts Up article, although I hope they'll be almost finished by the time I get to it. I'm also thinking of improving the RealClimate article, because right now it hardly has any information. After all this, I hope to help out with some of the BLP articles. I did some work already on the Lawrence Solomon article, which was harder, in my opinion, than it should have been. You're right that many of them need work. Cla68 (talk) 23:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Talkback

Hello, Lar. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Comments by uninvolved editors need to cease.
Message added 20:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

NW (Talk) 20:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will comment there, thanks. ++Lar: t/c 21:14, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request for protection

Hi there, could you please consider protecting Samy Vellu? This BLP is often vandalised and I've just purged it of large tracts of unsourced negative material. The rest is still unsourced, which is of course far from acceptable. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:09, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

 Semi-protected NW (Talk) 21:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, thanks, diligent TPW! ++Lar: t/c 21:14, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both for the non-kid glove treatment of genuine problems. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FYI

You recently participated in a discussion here. This issue has been raised again here, where you may wish to comment. Best regards, –xenotalk 15:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me and my TPW's know. ++Lar: t/c 18:31, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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