User talk:Steve Dufour

For making a difference!

by Pseudoanonymous 02:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

		The Fauna Barnstar
		Awarded in recognition of your small, yet important recent edits to the Dog article. They not only improved the neutrality and factual accuracy of the information, but added a wonderful poetic quality. Keep up the good work! VanTucky (talk) 06:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This user helped promote Michelle Obama to good article status.

On 17 August, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article African Wild Dog name controversy , which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

On 16 September, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Religion Newswriters Association, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

On 24 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Trina Belamide, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

On 29 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Barack Obama - Der schwarze Kennedy, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Wikipedia:Template messages Dufour on WP

Muir and Thoreau

Hi, The rewrite of the first paragraph of Muir was very well done. Is Thoreau within your scope? The first paragraph there could use some help. It's beyond me. Thanks KAM 23:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Peace (rose)

Hi Steve - just to let you know I've moved your para on this out of rose to its own page Peace (rose), it is sufficiently noteworthy to have its own page. Also expanded a little on details. - MPF 00:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey! I see what you wrote, has been turned into it's own article. Very nice! :) --HResearcher 22:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for saying so. Steve Dufour 05:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Bigfoot intro

Hey Steve. Re your comment on my talk page in which you asked if it is really necessary to mention in the intro that some people don't believe in Biggie. Yes it is. Your intro was "Bigfoot, also known as Sasquatch, is a legendary creature, which many people believe is also real." OK, that's a believers' POV, so what's wrong with balancing it. Tell you what, l will change one single word in your intro and ask you how long the the intro would have survived. Change the (second occurrence) of the word "also" to "not", so that your intro now becomes "Bigfoot, also known as Sasquatch, is a legendary creature, which many people believe is not real." Imagine the shock horror from the believers. And yet, you want the intro to say there are Biggie believers, but not to balance it by also saying there are disbelievers. Sorry, don't agree, which I why I amended it. Also, your intro says Biggie is a "legendary creature". So, Wiki was effectively advancing the POV that a creature actually exists, which is why I changed it to say Biggie is the name of a phenomenon. Incidentally, the word legendary doesn't only mean mythical.Moriori 22:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe in Bigfoot, but if it is real that would really be cool.  :-) Steve Dufour 01:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Motivation for Sun Myung Moon's anti-communism

Steve, I've just made 4 edits to the Sun Myung Moon article, to the Views on Communism section. The argument that Sun Myung Moon is anti-communist because he was mistreated by them - and not for philosophical or theological reasons - seems like such an obviously empty accusation to those who are even a little bit knowledgeable about the man and his organization(s). But did I go too far? I want to be fair even to viewpoints I don't agree with, and you seem to have a good sense along such lines (you seem to have a similar perspective of trying to be fair). Please take a look at today's edits and let me know what you think. -Exucmember 18:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks.

It looks ok to me. However I still think his anti-communist activities should be covered as a topic unto themselves as a very important part of his life and his contribution to the world; not mainly as an issue for debate between critics and supporters--although that could be mentioned in the criticism section. Steve Dufour 23:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It is a very important part of his life and work, and deserves its own article. Why don't you start it? -Exucmember 17:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. Steve Dufour 23:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Racism

Steve, I applaud you for your anti-racism. If I could give you an award I would. Well done.

Use of "claim"

I have tried and failed to track down any WP guideline or policy against "claim" as a word to characterize, well, claims. Could you direct me to the exact citation? Thanks. Robertissimo 04:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Here you go: Wikipedia:Words to avoid

Unification Theology

Steve, your recent edits and comments seem to indicate that you are not aware of the existence of the Unification theology article, but I can't believe that's the case. Anyway, it would be nice to distribute some of the UC teachings material there too, and to give some needed attention to that article. Both Unification theology and Divine Principle could use substantial revisions, as they were never edited thoroughly from beginning to end, to create a coherent article, by anyone (see especially the history of Unification theology). To me this is the single biggest deficiency in UC-related articles. The main overhaul should be done by a church member, not by a critic, so that the core presentation is true to what Unificationists believe. -Exucmember 18:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I was aware that the Unification theology article existed. To me as a member the article on Divine Principle seems like it should be the main article. We members almost never use the expression "Unification theology". I'll see what I can do in improving the articles. Thanks for your support. Steve Dufour 19:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand are the beliefs of the Unification Church really something that should be covered in Wikipedia at all? If people want to know they can visit church websites and find tons of info. But there has been almost no research or discussion of them by non-church sources. Steve Dufour 06:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Stanley Crouch on Obama

Hey Steve. The idea of that paragraph (and most of the Pop culture section) is that the sources are almost all saying people like to see themselves in Obama. Crouch's view is the less popular one, and so it is added to promote balance. It needs to be stated plainly so people can get the contrast. I take your point about using a more complete quote. How about using this quote from the third to last paragraph of Crouch's article?

"when black Americans refer to Obama as 'one of us,' I do not know what they are talking about […] while he has experienced some light versions of typical racial stereotypes, he cannot claim those problems as his own - nor has he lived the life of a black American."

Hope this makes sense. Be sure also to check the notes, the title of the article referenced immediately before this one suggests that one article inspired the other, "black like me", "not black like me"... Without contrary sources (Crouch, and also Noonan) the section risks getting ripped up by people who read it as too flattering of Obama. Let me know how you see it. Thanks. --HailFire 16:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd not really sure what the point of Crouch's article was. I don't think it was really critical of Obama, more like just a rant about how the world was changing and leaving him (Crouch) behind. If you put the quote you prefer in the article I will not object. Steve Dufour 16:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That's right. Crouch is not criticizing Obama at all, he is criticizing the way he feels others (specifically African Americans) see themselves in Obama. The whole idea of the Pop culture section is to talk about Obama's celebrity and how it interplays with social perceptions, not substantiated facts. That's what makes it so tricky. The multiline quote you put in looks a bit disproportionate for the idea it needs to convey, but we can let it ride for now. Thanks again. --HailFire 17:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Generally we are not supposed to cut up quotes putting in three dots ... whatever you call that. So I just pasted in the whole paragraph. BTW the more I think about it the more unreasonable Crouch seems to me. He spent his life struggling against racism and then when things have improved and young people don't suffer the same things that he did he complains about that. Steve Dufour 17:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree! But the sentiment Crouch expresses has been pushed into the article before and unless it gets addressed, will certainly be pushed again. I think this is a good place to allow some room for it. Makes sense? Still thinking about how we could trim it down a bit. Maybe move the full quote to the Notes section, like was just done for the "I inhaled" quote that would not go away? --HailFire 18:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Better? Be sure to check footnote! --HailFire 20:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

At least that quote let's people know there is some controversy. :-) Steve Dufour 20:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

FYI - the Crouch piece is getting more play - this week's Newsweek has a sidebar about Obama's not coming up through the civil rights movement, and Crouch's piece is prominently discussed. Tvoz | talk 18:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks much for your comment

Thanks, Steve, for the comment you added to the posting related to Transcendental Meditation on the Conflict of Interest Notice Board. It's an important point. TimidGuy 16:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

There probably will not be any objective coverage of TM until the second or third generation has grown up in it. This has happened with the Mormons, for example. Steve Dufour 04:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

about your change to [1]

where you said (→Background - no need for euphemism, we white people are not offended to be called that, although we are not really white, just a lighter shade of the normal human color lol - I wonder about the complexities of international coverage of wikipedia - is using "white" going to confuse people instead of Caucasion??--Smkolins 21:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)`

Both words are kind of silly; my skin is not white and I am not aware of any relationship I have with the Caucasis. Steve Dufour 04:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

List of Ex Christians

I just ran across this list and your justified criticisms of it. I believe the concept is fundamentally not encyclopedic. I am surprised to find it in Wikipedia. I suppose, however, that any effort to nominate it for deletion would arouse cries of "fundamentalism" and "censorship." If this concept is appropriate for an encyclopedia how about the following lists?

List of ex-republicans

List of former taco eaters

List of former ABBA fans

List of people who have changed from Ford to Chevy

List of ex-readers of the list of ex-Christians

This presents Wikipedia with a whole new field for new articles!Will3935 06:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. What is really interesting is how few genuine ex-Christians, even if we use the term very loosely, there really are. Steve Dufour 13:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Untold millions, if you simply look at the statistics of declining church attendance and self-reported affiliation over recent decades. Huangdi (talk) 10:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you know...

On 17 August, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article African Wild Dog name controversy , which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Allen3 ^talk 21:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thanks very much for the Mammal Barnstar, that's very kind of you. If you ever need anything, don't hesitate to ask. VanTucky 23:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Michelle Obama GA

Thanks for contributing to the effort at Michelle Obama. You may want to put this on your user page:

This user helped promote Michelle Obama to good article status.

--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 01:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Glad to hear the news. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

exact birthdays not needed in articles on living persons who are not well known

Do you have a cite for that being even (part of) a guideline. I don't see it. I can see, because of privacy considerations, the birthday shouldn't be listed unless there's a reliable source for it, but, if we can find a source, so can those attempting to invade their privacy. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. I'm sure that I have seen it somewhere among WP policy documents. To me it's more a question of taste than any practical protection afforded the subject of an article by removing it. I am also aware that in almost all cases someone puts the date back a few minutes after I remove it. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 18:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Jonathan Wells

Do you think Jonathan Wells is a scientist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SlideEraser (talk • contribs) 00:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Oh and thanks for the peace rose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SlideEraser (talk • contribs) 01:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't think Jonathan is a scientist. He is a popular author on the subject of evolution, but not someone whose main interest is scientific research. (Of course many of the "pro-evolution" people are not scientists either. :-) )Steve Dufour (talk) 01:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Famous dead church members

What do you think about using the Soon Ae Hong as the page title, for a bio of Hak Ja Han's mother? (I moved it back there, from Dae Mo Nim.) And does she even merit a page of her own? Why not merge her bio in with that of her better-known daughter?

And what about moving "black Heung Jin Nim" (which is only a temporary nickname) to the real name of Cleophas? --Uncle Ed (talk) 10:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Those are probably good ideas. I have been avoiding dealing with articles on the True Family myself. I find that I get too emotional because of all the mean spirited attacks on them. Then it is not possible for me to be objective. It's probably not good for my health either. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

AfD

I've nominated Obama Republican and McCain Democrat for deletion. Northwestgnome (talk) 18:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Main theological articles on Unificationism

As Unification theology was about to drop off the bottom of my watchlist, I did some clean-up of previously tagged problems -- which in turn got me to thinking about the these three, long articles and their lack of sourcing:

1. Unification theology: 12,480 bytes, 2 citations (both Unificationist)
2. Divine Principle: 23,482 bytes, 10 citations (all Unificationist, 6 of which are to DP itself)
3. Unification Thought: 23,307 bytes 2 citations (both Unificationist)

Given the paucity of citation, and complete lack of third party sources, I could simply notability-template all three articles and nominate them for AfD. This would create a firestorm of a reaction from your more flammable fellow UC-regulars, but would at least force them to make at least some attempt to establishing notability by providing third party coverage (in addition to the normal proof by assertion that seems to be standard fare on AfDs these days). Instead, I'm giving you a heads-up, in the hope that the same ultimate results can be achieved without unnecessary histrionics. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 11:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I am planning to add a criticism section to Divine Principle, or maybe to Unification Theology, based on common mainstream Christian views. I just haven't gotten around to it being busy with other things. I personally feel that Unification Thought is not notable enough for its own article, although the general concept that the Divine Principle understandings can be applied to other fields could be mentioned in other articles. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Unification Thought is the most lightweight of the three -- and quite probably wouldn't pass muster at an AfD. Merging it into Unification theology probably makes most sense. My primary concern with the articles isn't so much the criticism that isn't there (although this is a problem), but the lack of any substantive sourcing for what is there. The articles are little more than wall-to-wall violations of WP:V. They really need to be sourced, or stubbed down to what is sourcable. Also the preponderance of citations to DP in Divine Principle must surely make WP:SYNTH a major concern. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Did You Know problem

Hi. I've reviewed your DYK submission for the article Religion Newswriters Association, and made a comment on it at the submissions page. Please feel free to reply or comment there. Cheers, Art LaPella (talk) 05:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll see if I can find some more information to expand it to 1500 characters. Steve Dufour (talk) 20:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Religion Newswriters Association

No problem, a pretty clear case of COI. Badly written piece too, I didn't bother, but I could have produced a lengthy list of style guidelines it was breaking too. Pretty poor showing considering they are supposed to be journalists. Your version was obviously far superior even at a cursory glance. SpinningSpark 16:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I am a supporter of the RNA. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 02:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Religion Newswriters Association

On 16 September, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Religion Newswriters Association, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 01:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

3rr warning

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Barbara West (TV news anchor). Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. ∴ Therefore cogito·sum 18:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I opened up a discussion on the talk page of the article. Steve Dufour (talk) 18:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid, in fact, that is your fourth. Too bad, I was starting to begin discussion on the talk page now I have to take the time to report you. I'll give you a couple of minutes to self-revet if you care to. Your first edit deleting the text was the first of four reversions. Really, edit warring is not tolerated here. Two other editors have been banned. ∴ Therefore cogito·sum 18:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Why should my first edit, to improve the article by trying to solve undue weight problem, count as a revert? And it was you yourself who suggested editing the article for more neutral POV (which I think is a good thing) rather than deleting it. Steve Dufour (talk) 18:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I apologize I was mistaken -- you reverted five times. Report made. Please, next time, stop at 3 so that you and I could have taken the time to improve the article. We could have. Maybe in 24 hours, we can try again. ∴ Therefore cogito·sum 18:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but it does count towards the 3RR rule. Please review the policy. If you can assure me that you will now start the process as outlined at WP:BRD and will start productive discussion, I will try to pull the report back. I'd prefer your participation rather than your banning. ∴ Therefore cogito·sum 19:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been blocked for a period of 24 hours for edit warring on Barbara West (TV news anchor). It is essential that you are more careful to discuss controversial changes with the user in question, rather than simply revert them repeatedly: this applies even if you think or know you are correct. Edit warring helps nobody, and actually harms the page in question, and the encyclopedia. To contest this block please place {{unblock|your reason here}} below. Tiptoety ^talk 20:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

My two cents (as the person who made the 3RR report), Steve has started to productively contribute to the article in question and should be given the benefit of doubt -- i.e., I would life the block early. I would appreciate his feedback on the changes made so far and if he would suggest any other alterations. ∴ Therefore cogito·sum 01:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for saying so. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 01:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I've reviewed this block and agree its valid. But I am willing to offer you an either/or situation.

Either I leave you blocked, but let other people transfer your comments from this talk page to the article talk page

Or I unblock you, but you cannot edit the article or comment at the AFD for 5 days.

Which one will you choose? MBisanz ^talk 01:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll take the second if I can still comment on the article's talk page. I don't have anything more to say on the AfD and I don't need to be editing the article. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I like that idea -- I could use his feedback. He made a mistake (as we all do) and in good faith sincerely thought his first edit didn't count. ∴ Therefore cogito·sum 01:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'll unblock, but if I hear any complaints or see any reverts, its a one-week non-negotiable block. MBisanz ^talk 01:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll try to be a good editor. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 01:39, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I still seem to be blocked. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:57, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, according to the log you should be unblocked. Try to leave a note on his/her page. If you can't, make note of it here and I'll leave a note there. ∴ Therefore cogito·sum 02:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I am still blocked. I think I will just wait till tomorrow. Anyway I think Ms West's article would be improved by the suggestions you gave on the talk page. An alternative would be to create a new article on the Biden interview. That way any amount of detail on it could be given without unbalancing the other article. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) :::I left on note on their page requesting them to look into it. I've gone ahead and changed the article with the talk page's ideas, shortening significantly the detail. I doubt that there is (particularly now) sufficient detail to warrant a child article at this point and I suspect that this issue will not really get any further press. This happens sometimes in some articles where the paucity of biographical details is out-of-balance with a signficant event in someone's life. The best solution is to increase her biography so that it doesn't appear so out-of-balance. I suspect that we can decrease the event detail even further but probably best to wait a couple of days for this to calm down and then we can reevalulate then. ∴ Therefore cogito·sum 02:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm glad the article has at least been improved. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

You should be viewing a 6 digit number when you try to edit other pages. That is the number I need to unblock fully, since you triggered the autoblocker at some point. MBisanz ^talk 02:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

No. I see a box that says my address has been blocked. Does my being on DSL make a difference? I am fine with just waiting for the block to expire. I'm going away for the weekend and should be back Monday. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Messianic Judaism

Regarding [2] you were correct to remove it but your logic is shaky. There's no way that's a BLP issue. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

If the article is saying the Jews for Jesus are lying by saying they are Messianic Jews when they are not, and it's uncited, that's a BLP problem.Steve Dufour (talk) 19:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Under that logic any statement about any organization which has living members is a BLP problem. `JoshuaZ (talk) 19:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

In addition, the article was not saying that J4J are lying. On the contrary: the article was saying that since the J4J refer to themselves as MJs, the disclaimers made by other MJs that they are "not Christians" needs to be viewed with skepticism. Or at the very least with extreme care. -LisaLiel (talk) 20:39, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

In the view of mainstream Christianity the Messianic Jews are not Christians, this is based on the teachings of Saint Paul. The Jews for Jesus, being mainstream Christians, are well aware of this. If a Jew for Jesus said that he or she was a Messianic Jew that would be, to say the least, a deceptive statement. I don't think the sentence can remain without citation. Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Steve, please reread what Lisa and I wrote. No one is arguing the sentence should stay. The point we both disagree with is the claim that this is somehow a BLP issue. Moreover, it seems that you are letting your personal POV get involved here as the article on Messianic Judaism is quite well-sourced that most Christians consider MJs to be Christians (see the references given in footnote 5 in particular). JoshuaZ (talk) 05:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what kind of Christians would consider Messianic Jews to be Christians. One of the main points of the letters of Saint Paul is that Christians should not practice specifically Jewish rites. Of course in a general sense they are part of the Christian tradition, which might be the view of non-Christians and modern inclusive liberal Christian denominations. But Christian fundamentalists, including the Jews for Jesus, do not approve of Messianic Jews or consider them Christians. So a statement that members of the Jews for Jesus would say otherwise seems like a BLP violation to me, unless well cited. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Steve you seem to be missing the primary point: Regardless of your theological views of J4J and Messianic Judaism, there's no way a claim that some members of a large group say something is a BLP violation. Under that logic the statement "some Wikipedians are stupid jerks" or "some Americans are criminals" would be BLP violations without sourcing. Again, this is completely aside from the fact that you are making a claim about the Christian attitude towards Messianic Judaism. (If there's any disagreement by "fundamentalists" on this matter I'd be very interested in seeing a citation it should presumably be included in the article). But the bottom line is that saying something about unnamed members of a large group is not a BLP violation. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

What if the article had said some Jews are liars? I think that would be a BLP problem. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:08, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Changing the group doesn't change the situation. Generalities about large groups of people some living some dead cannot be BLP violations. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Try putting into the article: "Some people have declared themselves Jews and some Christians when they did not in fact believe in or follow the teachings of these religions." and see what happens. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It would be correctly removed. Aside from being unsourced it is far more POV than the statement in question. But that doesn't make it a BLP problem. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I also think the fact that the Jews for Jesus has only 150 full-time members is a factor. So an accusation against the group in general is more personal. (Another thing is that their article is being asked to carry the weight of all the controversy and conflict between the Jews and the Christians over the last 2000 years.) Steve Dufour (talk) 03:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The official Jews for Jesus has 150 employees. That's a very different claim. Not every Catholic is employed by the Vatican for example. And the comment about other weight- well obviously that weight is highly relevant. I doubt any article however could ever carry all that weight without it being much longer. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

True. From the information given it seems like most people taking part in Jews for Jesus activities are members of regular Christian churches. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. inigmatus (talk) 18:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Hence not a "cult" or a new religion. Steve Dufour (talk) 18:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Precisely. J4J is in all honestly, Christianity with a kippah. Messianic Judaism, however, is not. MJ is a Judaism that accepts Yeshua as the Messiah. Converts to MJ are converting to a Judaism, not a "Christianity" - and that is the difference between the J4J and the MJ paradigms. inigmatus (talk) 19:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Helen Jones-Kelly

FYI, Jones-Kelly never leaked anything about JtP. All she did was authorize searches. The reason this is news is that Republicans tried to connect it to the Obama campaign and demanded an investigation. In the end, it's really a tempest in a tea pot. Yes it was illegal, but the damage to Joe was zero since none of it went public. Mattnad (talk) 06:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I had a misunderstanding of what happened. It was still wrong of her to misuse her authority, but not so unusual to be worth writing an encyclopedia article about. Steve Dufour (talk) 07:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Joe the Plumber and Licensing

Hi Steve, I spent a little time actually research what reliable sources like Newsweek, MSNBC, and the toledo blade had to say about this topic. It turns out local officals claim he was working illegally. Now Collect is working suppress this information. See this [edit]. It's a bit frustrating that we actually have definitive information on this topic, and Collect is just excising it.Mattnad (talk) 19:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Um -- MN misstates the issue involved, and the nature of his edits against prior consensus. I think you have a lot of reading to do about what MN is calling "vandalism." Collect (talk) 19:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I actually think that WP has enough info on Joe the Plumber already. Which is why I am getting away from the article and moving on. Does anyone really think he will be charged with the crime of illegal plumbing? Steve Dufour (talk) 19:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Another photo

Hi Steve. Here's another photo of Christoph von Marschall for the article. I found it here. -- Suntag ☼ 13:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Please replace the picture if you think the other one is better.Steve Dufour (talk) 01:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Trina Belamide

On 24 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Trina Belamide, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 13:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Plans for the new year

Hey, Steve, Merry Christmas!

We've spent a lot of time banging heads with deletionists. Maybe it's time to start brainstorming on ways to supply the kind of writing that Wikipedia contributors would welcome. People have been asking me for years to explain more about the church teachings and church history. Why don't we get together and figure out which aspects are most interesting and relevant to Wikipedia's purpose, and concentrate on those? --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Ed! Wishing you and your family the best also. If you want to know what people are most interested in reading about....that would be controversy, conflict, and scandal. ;-) Steve Dufour (talk) 20:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's good, because that's what I'm most well-versed in. I'm continually surprised that a church, whose American membership is less than the number of days I've been a member, could attract so much attention.

The biggest controversies are really over its theological and philosophical conflicts with Christianity, Judaism and atheistic thought systems such as Marx's dialectical materialism. But I know quite about the scandals, too. (Like Aragorn, I know "Too much, too many dark things.") --Uncle Ed (talk) 20:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Good ideas. How about a section in Divine Principle on criticism of DP by other beliefs? And an article on UC anticommunism. Steve Dufour (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Both sound good. I wonder if seminarians could help with explanations of how other faiths respond to ours. UTS has a list of over 800 alumni, including top names like Dan Davies and Frank Kaufmann. And what every happened to Richard Quebedeaux?

As for UC anticommunism, there would be the religious aspect on top of everything. Moon says that God exists, while communism says not.

• When ecclesiastic love waned, when waves of capitalistic greed surged across Christian Europe, when starving masses cried out bitterly in the slums, the promise of their salvation came not from heaven but from the earth. Its name was communism. Christianity, though it professed the love of God, had degenerated into a dead body of clergy trailing empty slogans. It was then only natural that a banner of rebellion would be raised, arguing that a merciless God who would allow such suffering could not exist. Hence, modern materialism was born. Western society became a hotbed of materialism; it was the fertile soil in which communism flourished.

• Christianity lost the ability to equal the successes of either communism or materialism and failed to present the truth that could conquer their theories. Christians watched helplessly as these ideologies budded and thrived in their midst and expanded their influence all over the world. What a pity this is! What is more, although Christian doctrine teaches that all humanity descended from the same parents, many citizens of Christian nations who profess this doctrine will not even sit together with their brothers and sisters of different skin colors. This illustrates the actual situation of today's Christianity, which has lost much of the power to put the words of Jesus into practice. It has become a house of lifeless rituals, a whitewashed tomb. (DP Intro)

But these quotes indicate that there's more than an academic question of God's existence. It's very personal. Belief in God is linked to great suffering, as well as to promises to alleviate it. So is disbelief. Perhaps it's not so much about one's believes as about one's desire to relieve human suffering. Doesn't the UC's desire to "glorify God" contain a humanistic element? --Uncle Ed (talk) 20:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Certainly. I attended a sermon in an American Baptist Church where the pastor quoted Jesus as saying the first commandment is to love God and the second is "like unto it", to love your fellow humans. Very good point. As for Richard Quebedeaux, I couldn't find sources on him that would make him notable. Unification Church of the United States could also use a section on church leadership.Steve Dufour (talk) 14:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Barack Obama - Der schwarze Kennedy

On 29 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Barack Obama - Der schwarze Kennedy, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Category:Multilingual World Leaders for CfD

The category you recently created, Category:Multilingual World Leaders, is up for deletion here: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 December 30#Category:Multilingual World Leaders. Just thought you might want to know. --Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 21:20, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Natural born citizen

The discussions regarding natural born citizen often fail to factor in the subtle (and somtimes muddled) differences between citizen and the consitutional requirement natural-born citizen. Exactly how those differences might come into play under various circumstances are examined in the two law review papers I mentioned.

That said, given Obabma's stated circumstance of being born in Hawaii to a US citizen and a Kenyan, by mainstream interpretations of various law and precedent, his citizenship is in fact achieves the constutional threshold of natural born citizen. The legal challenge on that specific point is at best, extremely weak.

I think closing the topic was two steps away from a childish fit, but it is what it is and I'll let it go. The fact is that many questions surrounding the natural born citizen issue are not as clear as some would suggest and there is some conflicting thought on the matter. If you're looking for a clear answer regarding Obama, the clearest I can offer is in the above paragraph.

And there is more information and discussion on the topic at natural-born citizen. Jbarta (talk) 23:19, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

AfD

Please see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Peace Cup Redddogg (talk) 16:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

RE:World Domination

I'm in the middle of an ArbCom case over Ayn Rand, but I'll do what I can. Also, I do like your idea... it does seem like the concept is almost more notable as a pop culture one than a historical one. TallNapoleon (talk) 17:22, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I plan to pull the pop culture info back from the abyss and give it its own article. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:13, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I just checked it out and it has zero sources. Oh well. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

ANI comments

Hey friend, according to your comments here, you think maintaining articles on ID is a waste of time. Why do you think this? Wikipedia's coverage of the topic is outstanding; Intelligent design and Evolution are both featured articles, and POV pushers are swiftly dealt with. I'd really like to know.--Patton^t/c 14:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Evolution is one of the most important topics there is. The ID movement is very minor. There doesn't need to be long-long articles about the most minor person or event involved. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The fact that the article is huge tells us there is a lot to know, and wikipedia should provide readers with a complete understanding of every topic. ID isn't very minor, there are loads of sources out there, so it's definitly notable if that's what you're saying.--Patton^t/c 13:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I still think a lot of people could be spending their time better on more important topics, real science for instance. And of course I know that my suggestion will never really be implemented. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 17:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

AfD

Hi Steve. You might be interested in this AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Young Jin Moon. Redddogg (talk) 17:19, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 17:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Rename

Hi Steve. I've proposed renaming True Family to the more neutral Family of Sun Myung Moon. Please join in the discussion on the article's talk page. Thanks. Redddogg (talk) 18:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for Picture of Rev. Moon

Hello. I am a South Korean wikipedian. While editing Korean page about Rev. Moon, I borrowed the picture of him you had uploaded. So, I appreciate for it to you. And I hope we can share information. Thank you.--Godneck (talk) 08:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I hope you can work on the English Wikipedia too. Steve Dufour (talk) 11:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I will. English webpage has so much information especially on Rev. Moon's life after 1970s. I can contribute to English webpage on Rev. Moon's life before 1950s. I think information on Korean webpage can also be helpful for you.(http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/문선명) --Godneck (talk) 13:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Possible deletion?

Hi Steve. I'm considering nominating Hak Ja Han for deletion. Would you like to discuss the issue on the article's talk page? Redddogg (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Barack Obama FAR

I have nominated Barack Obama for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. -- Avi (talk) 20:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Scientology arbcom case

Hi Steve, we haven't met, but I noticed that a year or two ago you very valiantly struggled to have the David Miscavige article comply with WP:BLP. I thought it might be gratifying to you to know that that train of events is, at long last, being looked at by the arbcom: [3], [4], [5]. There is also still an opportunity to submit evidence in this case, if you recall any particularly outrageous policy violations that took place while you were editing the articles: Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology/Proposed_decision#Call_for_evidence. Cheers, Jayen466 20:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Glad to hear that improvements are being made. I am no longer involved with WP Scientology articles due to a secret backroom deal. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 13:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)