User talk:Kim-Zhang-Hong

Welcome

Welcome!

Hello, Kim-Zhang-Hong, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially what you did for Mao Zedong. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
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• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! John Vandenberg ^(chat) 13:01, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

June 2009

Welcome to Wikipedia. We welcome and appreciate your contributions, including your edits to State atheism, but we cannot accept original research. Original research also encompasses novel, unpublished syntheses of previously published material. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your information. You should also read WP:NPOV, as some of your edits appear to be commentary and opinion. Thank you.--Sandor Clegane (talk) 16:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of previously published material to our articles . Please cite a reliable source for all of your information. Thank you.--Sandor Clegane (talk) 16:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Please stop. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by adding your personal analysis or synthesis into articles, as you did to State atheism, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. --Sandor Clegane (talk) 14:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Religious war

Would you please explain your edits on the talk page of this article. You also know how to add edit summaries, you really should be adding them every time you edit - if editors understood why you were making changes you might get less of your edits reverted. I've just reverted your latest edit to this article, explaining some of my reasons in the edit summary. Dougweller (talk) 18:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Please stop. You are continuing to re-add material on Religious war which is not properly cited using NPOV sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources ([8] for example does not qualify as a WP:RS). This edit warring and refusal to discuss is despite three different editors reverting and asking you to discuss the changes you are trying to make. I am continuing to WP:AGF for the moment but before you make any further reverts or continue to make such edits to the article please (1) take a look at WP:BRD, WP:Edit war, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:RS, WP:V and WP:OR and (2) DISCUSS the changes you are trying to make and attempt to reach consensus. Thanks. Tameamseo (talk) 15:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, please try to use edit summaries more often. And do not use misleading edit summaries such as this. Tameamseo (talk) 15:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Re: State atheism

What you did constitutes as Synthesis of published material that advances a position, which is putting together information from multiple sources to reach a position, such as adding "Atheism per se can't be blamed for the atrocities of past communist countries were religion was suppressed because many religions such as Jainism are compatible with atheism and because atheists have no commandements to persecute religious believers.", which would also fall under POV. For the record, the article doesn't blame atheism for anything--all it is about is which countries used it. It doesn't say atheism was responsible for their actions, so defense isn't really necessary.

That being said, I removed Dinesh's quote about communism being an atheist ideology, and I'll remove the countries that aren't backed up by cited source.--Sandor Clegane (talk) 17:02, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, atheism was blamed, otherwise how do you explain people saying communism is explicitly atheistic and quoting Dinesh?(which is why I added communist priests such as Thomas J. Haqggerty, to prove them wrong) and how do you explain people saying Enver Hoxha banned religion just for atheism's sake? Banning religion doesn't even mean you're an atheist, you could be a deist Either way, the reader that reads this article should be aware that "state atheism" is just a term to define any government that suppressed religious beliefs and not necessarily one with the intention of making the country atheist, this term shouldn't even exist because again; religions like Jainism are compatable with atheism. This is something the reader should be aware of This isn't POV, it's a fact, give me one commandment that atheism has...it has none Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 09:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Like I already said, I removed Dinesh's quote. Keep in mind that many people edit Wikipedia, so such edits can sneak by. As for Enver Hoxha, we have the Albanian constitution to back up the claims of him making the country atheistic: "The State recognises no religion, and supports and carries out atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in people". You really can't get any more explicit than that. Trust me, the last thing you have to worry about is Wikipedia having an anti-atheist bias--its quite the opposite.--Sandor Clegane (talk) 18:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't check behind your source. However, even if we grant this, where does it say he "set out to abolish all religion with the intention of making their country officially atheistic"? This constitution doesn't say it's against every single religion for the specific reason that they want everyone to be atheist. Just that it recognizes no religion, still could be deistic or secular but doesn't say anything about abolishing all religion for the sake of atheism. At one time Enver Hoxha even said "the Religion of Albania is Albanianism", ie statism, he wants people to focus deeply on the states desires and sacrifice their hopes and dreams in the name of the state. And even if he abolishes all religions that wouldn't make Albania atheistic, religions such as Jainism are atheistic and a nonreligious person could still be a deist, deists could also easily be materialists

Quite the opposite? I don't think so. In the past wikipedia cited Ethiopia, Poland, Afghanistan(and others) as having state atheist when they were(and still are) very religious. It also had unfounded assumptions such as North Korea being state atheist

The person reading the article would probably think Marxism is inherently atheistic, especially after reading Dinesh quote(which was outright wrong), and deleting it was ok but then again why was it there in the first place? To express Dinesh's wrong opinion?

If all the things I said above(among others) aren't anti-atheist bias then what are they? I mean, I understand China being state atheist but Poland and Ethiopia? No way! Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 10:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Irreligion

Thanks. I've deleted the tables and map and am thinking of taking the article to AfD. Dougweller (talk) 11:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

October 2009

Please stop. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy by adding commentary and your personal analysis into articles, as you did to List of religious populations, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Angelo De La Paz (talk) 07:30, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Religious war#Taiping Rebellion

Hi Kim,

I am confused by the first sentence in the Taiping Rebellion section of Religious war.

The sentence says:

Inspired by a formerly illegal Protestant missionary tract in China, the core of the Taiping faith focused on the belief that Shangdi, the high God of classical China, had chosen the Taiping leader, Hong Xiuquan, to establish his Heavenly Kingdom on Earth.

The first phrase has several interpretations:

• A Protestant missionary wrote a tract. This tract used to be illegal, but it is not illegal anymore.
• A Protestant missionary wrote a tract. The Protestant missionary used to be illegal, but he (or she) was not illegal at the time he (or she) wrote the tract.
• A Protestant missionary wrote a tract. The Protestant missionary used to be illegal, but he (or she) was not illegal anymore.
• A person wrote a tract. The person used to be an illegal Protestant missionary, but was not a Protestant missionary at the time he (or she) wrote the tract.

Which interpretation did you intend?

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 13:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

You are not the only one here!

Hi Kim!

I really upset with your activities in List of religious populations. You didn't respect other editors because you always deleting sources of higher estimates for Buddhists. I am still keeping your citation given, alongside with earlier editions; please read NPOV. I have added some various estimates for Christianity section because I think it's needed. I hope you will stop do it again and show your respect for other editors because you don't own Wikipedia, or you aren't the only one editor here who think yourself is the best. That's enough and please stop your childish behavior. Thank you!

Angelo De La Paz (talk) 15:49, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Angelo, Sorry for upsetting you, but I'm also upset Apparently you say that I don't respect other editors because I object and deleted organizational reporting(96% Japanese being Buddhist). But remember that tou deleted my reliable Mongolia source(among others like Taiwan), doesn't that mean you disrespected me?

I removed your cia's Japan guesswork(which even you don't trust because you didn't add Spain or Scandinavia). The only high Buddhist estimation that I removed should have been Japan, and I would truly love it if Buddhists were higher in South Korea, but census data is the most reliable method(at least for self-identification) and it indicates otherwise I'm fairly certain I'm being neutral by doing this because I'm sticking to the article's main source(adherents.com), I guess you could indeed say that I consider this estimation the best because again, it's our main source. And if the main source is wrong when it tells me that surveys indicate that 20% of Japanese are Buddhist in its Buddhist section then perhaps we should drop it?

I'm sorry for the inconvenience, and I might be childish because I'm fairly new here(in comparsion to others like you). But I truly don't see much of a problem other than objecting to organizational reportings, surely you can't consider someone a Buddhist just because his ancestor was a Buddhist right? And I'm sure that most of the world brush their teeth more than they go to church but that doesn't mean we have to drop Christianity in Colombia at only 40%, because every source will show us that Colombia has much more Christians than this

Alot of countries like Scandinavia were associated with a church, but you can't add them to the Christian list. There are many Catholic and Protestant nations in Europe where the majority of people have been Christianed or otherwise counted as a member of the state church, but where large proportions of the population are still non-believers. Besides, even if you did count non-believers as Christian just becaause of organizational reportings. The difference is that in those European countries, those people are at least nominally adherents of the religion that claims them. "Nominally" here means if asked their religion, they can recall the name of the church they were baptized into as an infant, and don't mind citing that as their religious preference. In Japan, the majority of adherents of Buddhism&Shinto, as claimed by the organizations, don't even consider themselves adherents, even nominally

You can't be thinking of a huge marign of error of 13-96% Japanese Buddhists right? Nonetheless, I'll get the figure of Japanese Buddhists higher. But I still strongly object to organizational reportings, they will seriously mess up our list and if taken into consideration then that means that most people on earth could be identified as "atheist", because again, most people on earth don't practice their faith actively and I'm sure they brush their teeth more often

If you are still upset then tell me your thoughts like I just did and let's reach an agreement. If you have a better idea then I would like to hear it Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 09:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I really don't appreciate your works here and seems like many other editors disagree with your personal one-sided opinions in other articles. I really tired with people who are childish and dictatorial like you are. I have added Denmark and Spain to the Christianity as your request because it's needed as a fair treat. I have no problem with various point of views. For examples; according to State.gov, both show the number of Buddhist/Shinto is 96% as the highest. Even you according to CIA you could see:

• Shintoism 83.9%, Buddhism 71.4%, Christianity 2%, other 7.8%

note: total adherents exceeds 100% because many people belong to both Shintoism and Buddhism (2005)

It's so hard to separate Buddhism or Shintoism (or between Buddhism or Taoism among Chinese communities; or between Buddhism and Animism in Mongolia or Laos, etc) but the real number of practical adherents is very low as 20% as in your citation given, I accepted to keep it because it's also right. Even there were different estimates from the same organization, just like in Taiwan where formal Buddhist is only 35% if according to State. gov. But according to CIA, you will see this line: mixture of Buddhist and Taoist 93%, Christian 4.5%, other 2.5%. That's very normal in East Asian countries where Buddhism is harmony with other folk religions (See more in Buddhism by country. However, it was difficult to estimate accurately the number of Buddhists because they did not have congregational memberships and often did not participate in public ceremonies [9].

Sorry for my poor English because I was born in Vietnam to a Chinese family, now I am living in CA now and I knew both cultures. I hope you understand our culture, religion tradition which are very different to Western standard. And let's people see the difference between various sources due to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, I think you must learn this rule by heart. You shouldn't stand on one side; take a look at Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia articles and you will see there are 2 side-by-side opposed point of views. That's what I am talking about: don't hurt anyone by your one-sided opinions and respect each other. I am sorry but I must tell you something, your behavior is not liberal and not fair, and that personality is not suitable here. If you still do it again, I think I will report it and you might be ban due to your non-neutral point of view. Thank you!

Angelo De La Paz (talk) 10:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

"I really don't appreciate your works here and seems like many other editors disagree with your personal one-sided opinions in other articles"

What's so personal when I just follow what the main source reports? It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if some from +6 billion people disagree, most people are ignorant and live on less than 2 dollars a day. Either way, I reached a certain agreement with many of these people and I intend to do the same here

"I really tired with people who are childish and dictatorial like you are"

Before you say I'm childish, make sure you don't make grammar mistakes and don't do what you accuse others of doing. Besides, truth isn't a democracy

"Please give me sources that show percentage of cultural Christians in Spain and Scandinavia which higher than 94%"

The CIA you just cited does

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sp.html Roman Catholic 94%

But again, the CIA religion guesswork shouldn't be trusted. The cia reports that 87% of Sweden is lutheran(ignoring other Christians like roman catholics) when in reality Sweden is an atheist majority. You should trust the cia only if it gives census data, so don't add Spain just because of that, I mentioned Spain and Scandinavia only to show how wrong organizational reportings can be. The CIA reports that 95% of Danes are Evangelical, but you can't add Denmark to the list because it's also a country with an atheist majority Sadly it seems you didn't even try to check behind what I told you so many times, did you?

"I have no problem with various point of views"

Opinions are meaningless in the face of evidence, I never intended for you to add countries like those. I just hoped these could show you how relying on organizational reporting could seriously mess up our list, what would you think if you saw that Buddhists range from as low as 13% to as high as 96%? You would say "something is definitely wrong here"

"It's so hard to separate Buddhism or Shintoism "

Not anymore than seperating Christianity and atheism in Europe. Besides, even if you add Shintoists you simply wouldn't get a third of Japanese as adherents of Buddhism, not to mention 96% Again, organizational reportings mean nothing. If someone wrote that some guy is a Buddhist because his 17th century ancestor was then would you trust him?

"That's very normal in East Asian countries where Buddhism is harmony with other folk religions"

Doesn't matter, if the majority of Japanese declare they have no religion then Buddhists simply can't be that high. And that's your main objection here. High sources would get the "no religion" bunch as high as 84%(Johnstone, 1993) but it's probably lower at 75%(as adherents.com indicates), and possibly as low as 65%, but even then that doesn't leave much for Buddhists, this high estimate of 96% really doesn't leave much for the rest of the groups of the nonreligious, Christians, new religions, etc. It's ridiculously high and you should be able to see how huge the marign of error is

"religion tradition which are very different to Western standard"

I understand that Buddhism combines many religions and its peaceful coexistence causes it to be underestimated alot of times, I myself wanted to edit the "Buddhism" article that says that Buddhists range from 230 to 500 million, when in reality they should be over 800 million

There are Hindu&Buddhist in Nepal, Shinto&Buddhist in Japan, Taoist/Confucianist/Buddhist chinese living in China and elsewhere, and stand in awe, there are even some Jews&Buddhist in Israel. I actually feel pretty attached to Buddhism(ironic?) Buddy, I don't live in America, and I know all of this so stop repeating the same thing

"don't hurt anyone by your one-sided opinions and respect each other"

Even though you said that, you removed the 2.1 Buddhists who were in Australia in the Buddhist section, there is no doubt it was 100% neutral. I also accepted alot of your previous estimates but simply added sources and removed the ridiculously low amount of Buddhists in places like China(a mere 8%? can't be)

I can't believe you actually went ahead and added Denmark to the Christian section when according to Petterson and Gustaffson(2000) as many as 80% Danes don't believe in God Sorry man, but I really can't see the problem, and relying on organizational reportings and the CIA's guesswork is still very unreliable and should never be used when talking about what people actually believe

Again, I strongly object about relying on organizational reportings and the CIA's guesswork, use the cia only when it gives census data and remove countries like Denmark from the Christian list, it just gives us with a huge marign of error when most people simply don't believe in Jesus even if the church counts them as believers. Likewise most Japanese definitely don't adhere to any religion, so how can so many Japanese be classified as Buddhists? Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 11:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Your edition

You are always insisting that State.gov and CIA The World Factbook are "well-cited" for Christian population in Panama, Guatemala, Romania (up to 99% and 100%) (Evidence) so I think it's also "well-cited" for cultural adherent number of Shintoism and Buddhism in Japan (up to 95%). But I wonder why you delete it although they are from the same sources (State.gov and CIA The World Factbook)? I respected your opinions and your citation given before and still keep it with other sourced estimates. I remind you should not violate the three-revert rule and the neutral point of view policy, that's why I have made a solution for this problem and I also found there is a source that said only 20% of the Japanese are practicing Buddhists:

1. Japan 95% (20% practicing, 45% of Japanese believe in Buddha) (mostly Mahayana with Shinto, Shinto 3%, Christian 0.6%, Muslim 0.1%)

I hope it's the last time I solve this problem and I think it's enough for both. Thank you. Angelo De La Paz (talk) 06:23, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Japan is not a Buddhist majority country and you should know why by now, you admitted that only 45% believe in Buddha and yet 95% are Buddhist? I told you why i used the cia at times, you just didn't read my reply after you told me to discuss this with you, I was waiting for a really long time for you to reply and remained silent without any edits for a long while but you never replied, simply because you can't. Use the CIA only if it gives census data, otherwise it's just guesswork, the U.S state department cites other sources tons of times when it reports religiosity, you obtained your figures by asking religious bodies for statistics. The Shinto/Buddhist religious bodies have on record most Japanese citizens because of laws established in the centuries ago which required registration. Frequently seen high figures of 85% or 90% of Japanese being Buddhist come primarily from birth records, following a longstanding practice of family lines being officially associated with a local Buddhist temple. Japan has a large and thriving Buddhist community, but surveys indicate it to be closer to 20% of the population. Your reasoning will lead us to also believing that there are some 100 million Shintoists, do you seriously believe so many people think the emperor of Japan is divine or that they seriously think that trees have souls? Read your source, "Of citizens who claimed a faith" meaning not all of the population of Japan, only those who had a certain belief. I can argue with you forever since the evidence is so strongly against you but again I ask, what can possibly convince you that you're wrong? I didn't really revert it, I didn't target you personally and i'm not waging any war and the only thing from the Buddhist section I touched these couple of days are the rates in Japan, this isn't reverting, i'm editing the overall article. You never solved the problem, infact you removed much of my edits and I would appreciate it if you would stop for a moment and reason with me Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 10:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't deleted your citation given but it should would be better to shortening it because "70 percent profess no religious membership" left the rest 30% profess to religious membership so don't need to repeat it again in the main article like in your messy edition.

1. Japan 95%(Shinto with Mahayana)(20% to 45% believe in Buddha)

Angelo De La Paz (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

anti-social editing

I noticed your anti-social editing on this page lately and you fail to assume good faith. Some of the estimates are different to give a neutral viewpoint. I noticed you are new here and might be unfamiliar so i reccomend you read Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. It is also against wikipedia rules to edit controversial stats without a consensus. Your figures under 'other estimates don't add up to the global population which is 6.8 billion not 8 billion. Discus edits on this talk page before major revisions next time. Thank you and regards. Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 16:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

As an alternative, check out Major religious groups. Estimates are more open on that page so post you edits there instead. Thanks Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 18:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

....what? what do you mean "Your figures under 'other estimates don't add up to the global population which is 6.8 billion not 8 billion"....remember, many Buddhists and adherents of primal indigenous beliefs mix their religion with other religions so many for example are adherents of both Buddhism and Taoism or are adherents of Christianity and African religions

You didn't explain why you removed my spiritist and sikhism percentages, what was wrong with them? Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 07:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

02 June 2010

Welcome to Wikipedia. The recent edit that you made to the page List of religious populations has been reverted, as it appears to be unconstructive. Please use the sandbox for testing any edits; if you believe the edit was constructive, please ensure that you provide an informative edit summary on the talk page, especially if it's a controversial edit. You may also wish to read the introduction to editing for further information. Have you considered Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User? It's a program designed to help new and inexperienced Wikipedia users. Thank you. Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 13:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Really? Doesn't look like it, the last edit was done by me, what was reverted? Are you talking about my "Other estimate" section? Thanks for offering me to join that program, I didn't know it existed Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 15:11, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi

Do you mind telling me where in this source it says there are 1.8 billion english speakers? Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 04:14, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

"Nowadays English is used by an estimated 1.8 billion speakers" It's in http://www.ehistling-pub.meotod.de/01_lec06.php at the introduction section, check again, or did you mean something else? Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 20:10, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi

Why did you make such a long name? Taoists/Confucianists/Practitioner of Chinese Traditional religions in list of religious populations? Change it pleaseIwanttoeditthissh (talk) 15:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Because I wanted it to be accurate, Taoists might also be Confucianists, yet they may also combine local chinese practices and beliefs, are you getting what I'm saying? It's somewhat complicated really. Do you have a better name for this? Maybe Taoists/Confucianists/Chinese religions practitioner? or maybe just call it a "mix of Chinese religions"....or do you have a better idea? Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 20:10, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: Buddhism

Your edits to Buddhism have been disputed by at least three different editors. Please follow BRD and use the talk page to convince us. Please do not continue to edit war your changes or I will request administrator intervention. Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 05:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who disputed my edits, their reasons are what's important. Please do use the talk page to convince me and use it quickly, I already replied to you and I want to finish this ASAP. Don't just pick parts of my arguments, refute all of my arguments while you're at it Thanks in advance

Done. Viriditas (talk) 12:26, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

List of religious populations

Hello. I just noticed you made this edit to List of religious populations. Could you take a momment to explain your rationale, either here or on the talk page of Talk:List of religious populations? I'm at a loss as to why you deleted information sourced to a 2009 International Report on Religious Freedom. Your accompanying edit summary was even more confusing: "Hardly anyone in Japan is a Shinto. Hardly anyone still thinks the emperor is of divine ancestry and hardly anyone still worships trees, rivers, and mountains." Could you please explain? Viriditas (talk) 11:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

High figures of Shintoists come from the Shukyo Nenkan (Religions Yearbook), put out by the Ministry of Education & Bureau of Statistics, and they obtain their figures by asking religious bodies for statistics. The Shinto religious bodies have on record most Japanese citizens because of laws established in the 17th Century which required registration with the Shinto shrines. Essentially everybody within local "shrine districts" were counted as adherents. In Japan, the majority of adherents of Shinto, as claimed by the Shinto organizations, don't even consider themselves adherents, even nominally. In polls, only about 2-3% of the Japanese people give Shinto as their religion

There are 2.7 million Shintoists

See: religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Also: World Almanac and Book of Facts 2000. Mahwah, NJ: PRIMEDIA Reference Inc. (1999). [Source: 1999 Encyc. Britannica Book of the Year]; pg. 695.

A figure of 100+ million is not true Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 12:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

You are supporting your edits regarding Shintoism with an argument you used against the edits on Buddhism. You are also using older sources again, rather than the new ones. You can't replace a newer source with an older one. Viriditas (talk) 12:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Nope, actually organiational reportings in China get Buddhism very low, to your figure. Which I don't consider to be reliable

Organizational reportings for Shinto get it higher, atr nearly 100 million, which I again consider to be unreliable

Organizational reportings are the most unreliable method, we should refrain from using them as much as we can

Older, dude it's just by a few years, that's not old. Besides, what evidence do you have that Japanese people still truly think the emperor is of divine ancestry and who still worships rivers trees and mountains, comon, Shintoism is dead, it's over

Even if you still think it's old, religioustolerance isn't and it gets the figure at 2.7 million. I can give you multiple other sources if you don't believe me that get Shintoism at much lower than that

And you can replace a new source with an older one if the newer one is useless, I already explained why that new source is wrong, so now it's over for it Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 12:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't doubt that what the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance says is true, but you don't seem to have a grip on how we use sources, how we cite them, and how we don't cherry pick what we want out of what is. We know that according to the International Religious Freedom Report 2009, ~107 million persons identify themselves as Shinto. Wherever those figures come from or derive is a separate subject, certainly fit for a footnote or more of a nuanced discussion inline, provided the footnotes are more reliable than a website. And no, you can't replace a new source with an older one simply because you prefer it. Viriditas (talk) 12:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

But that's what is, only 2.7 million or so Japanese identify as Shintoist. The 100 million figure simply isn't true Read it again more carefully "membership claims by religious groups" ie what the religious bunch are claiming, the religious bunch can claim whatever they want but it's still not true. Again, organizational reportings are the most unreliable methodm they shouldn't be used,otherwise we'll have to start putting countries in Scandinavia and France as most Christians when Christians don't even make the majority, things would seriously mess up this beautiful article if we started taking organizational reportings for what they say

Oh boy, you already started not answering all of my objections....You seriously think that 107 million Japanese think the emperor is of divine ancestry and that they worship trees, mountains, and rivers? Hardly anyone is a Shinto nowaday, clearly in our age of science, the more accurate figure is 2.7 million. I can give you tons of sources that declare it to be lower, again, I have to ask you, what would convince you that you're wrong? Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 12:59, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

You're playing childish games. Official statistics on Shintoism differ from self-reporting because there is a cultural disconnect between what we consider to be concepts of "religion" and "faith". It isn't that the 100 million figure isn't true, it's that it differs with self-identification surveys because many Japanese do not see their cultural practices as a religion. I'm getting concerned that you don't understand the articles you are editing and that you are wasting a great deal of other peoples time. You are not in a position to throw out reliable sources simply because you disagree with them. You are also not in position to cherry pick based on web sites. Tell me which reliable secondary and tertiary sources you've consulted on this subject. I don't want to see any more websites from you. I want hard, print copy, reliable sources. Picken 1994 puts your argument to rest, so please don't repeat it again. Viriditas (talk) 13:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Certainly most Japanese people participate in holidays which have Shinto roots, but in this list we are trying to track self-identification, not general vestigial influence. Also, the strongest active religions which have Shinto roots (such as Tenrikyo) no longer claim to be "branches" of Shinto, and can be listed separately. No source in the world would convince you, it's pointless. You said something similar when you demanded for google books and when I gave you one you ignored it Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 13:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I haven't ignored a single thing in my entire six years here. Breen & Teeuwen (2010) summarize the issue perfectly:

According to official statistics, Shinto is Japan's largest religion, with more than a hundred million "adherents," a number that amounts to well over 80 percent of all Japanese. Yet only a small percentage of the populace identify themselves as "Shintoists" in questionnaires conducted by the media or by Shinto organizations. This reflects the fact that while many Japanese participate in shrine events and make use of the ritual services offered by shrines, only very few regard Shinto as their religious identity. Seen through the eyes of the average patron of shrines, Shinto remains a very vague concept. Shrines may be categorized as Shinto and temples as Buddhist, but this distinction is of little consequence to those who make use of their services. It makes sense to distinguish shrines from temples, but with few exceptions it is impossible to differentiate between "Shintoists" and "Buddhists." Of course, the fact that Shinto hardly functions as a religious identity does not mean that shrines are taken lightly...Some 70 percent of all Japanese visit a shrine in the first days of the New Year...Shrines perform three categories of rituals. One is personal prayer for individuals or families...the first shrine visit of a newborn baby...a shrine visit to celebrate a child's third, fifth, or seventh birthday. These rites are observed by some 50 percent of Japanese...Festivals tend to be run by the local community rather than the shrine priests...Typical of shrine festivals is that they engage large parts of the community...some 25 percent of Japanese participate in a local festival...All events of this kind form part of a single calendrical cycle of seasonal festivities...that brightens up the routine of a busy life. For most "religion" and "faith" have little to do with it.[10]

This does not mean 100 million Japanese aren't Shinto. It means that the figure (70-80 percent) is closely supported by some type of adherence to Shinto ritual which we classify as a religion using official statistics. The data needs to be put back in the article with a note saying that the number of Shinto practitioners are much smaller than the official number. We don't delete information simply because we personally disagree with it, or we find other sources that criticize it. We cite both numbers, the official one quoted by the U.S. State Department and the Japanese government, and the numbers of people self-identifying. I don't know why you thought it would be acceptable to delete official numbers. That's just irresponsible and reflects bad judgment. Viriditas (talk) 13:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

"I haven't ignored a single thing in my entire six years"

Yes you did, otherwise you'd have realized the evidence against you, you also ignored the 1500 million Buddhist figure in the "list of religious populations" you didn't lower it to your figure of 100-500 million Buddhists and yet you did so in the "Buddhism" article, why? Why do you agree with these same sources that I cited to you earlier and yet refuse to admit that there are a billion Buddhists out there?

If "For most "religion" and "faith" have little to do with it" then why do you want to claim that Shintoism has anything to do with all these religious rituals or visits to the shrine? I myself visited a Muslim synagogue, and a Sikh Gurdwara, and a Buddhist temple, and that proves what? There are many tourists who do that, there are also many people who pratices meditation, yoga, and tai chi even though they aren't Buddhist, Hindu, or Taoist. Your practices don't necessarily indicate that you believe in a certain religion, I take a bath, does that mean i'm Shintoist? I rinse my mouth, does that mean I'm Shintoist? No, just how far are you willing to take this?

"This does not mean 100 million Japanese aren't Shinto"

Yes it does, even your own source says so

"The modern Japanese take religion calmly, even indifferently. Like Christianity in Europe, Buddhism in Japan has left behind a rich heritage of art, architecture, music and literature; but as a vital religious force it is spent. There are new sects that appeal to a vociferous minority; and Zen still exerts an influence over a thinking few. But in general the role of Buddhism in modern Japan is merely to bury the dead and to keep their graves. It may seem paradoxical to say this of a religion that still has a priesthood, possesses scriptures, conducts regular services, maintains magnificent temples and large estates, administers schools and engages in social welfare. But among the intelligent young in Japan it is far more common to find a burning faith in Marxism than in Buddhism. Buddhism has become a matter of rituals, of services and of festivals; it has long since ceased to have an organic life of its own. "

Source: Cavendish, Richard (ed.). Man, Myth & Magic: An Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Supernatural (vol. 11). New York: Marshall Cavendish Corp. (1970), pg. 1492-1494.

But wait, that's mostly about Buddhism. What about Shintoism? Japan had an irreligious majority ever since the ninteen seventies so Shintoism kinda disappeared in that period, you can't be an atheist or adhere to no religion and yet believe in Shintoism like believing the emperor is of divine ancestry, worshipping trees, mountains, and rivers, and believing in several benevolent gods

"Another survey, conducted in 1979, asked people if they professed any religious faith. Affirmative replies [were] to 33.6%. " Most who said yes identified their faith as Buddhist (78.4%). Only 3.3% identified their faith as Shinto.

Souce: Reid, D. "Japanese Religions " in Hinnells, John R. (ed). A Handbook of Living Religions, Penguin Books: New York (1991) [reprint; 1st pub. 1984], pg. 379.

"perhaps three-quarters of the Japanese people would tell you that they do not believe in any given religion. But they still follow religious customs of old. "

Source: Dolan, Jr., Edward F. & Shan Finney. The New Japan; New York: Franklin Watts (1983), pg. 49.

"Less than 25% of the population [of Japan] professes any religion, & although new sects periodically flare up, materialism & religious indifference seem to have infected a people who less than 50 years ago were willing to sacrifice their lives for their faith. "

Source: Pastva, Loretta. Great Religions of the World; Winona, Minnesota: Saint Mary's Press, Christian Brothers Publications (1995) [9th printing. 1st printing in 1986], pg. 130.

"But the majority of Japanese--some 70 to 80 percent--even though carried on the rolls of one or more religious body, do not contsider themselves believers in any religion. "

Source: Reischauer, Edwin O. The Japanese Today: Change and Continuity; Cambridge, Massachusetts: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press (1988), pg. 215.

"In independent surveys where people are asked to state their own religion, there are the approximate results: Shinto 2-3%; Buddhism 20%; Christianity 1-2%; a new religion 10%; no religion 65% "

Source: "A Brief Survey of Religion in Modern Japan " (1998). By Paul A. Shew

"In Japan, although Shintoism claims almost 100 million adherents and Buddhism nearly 90 million (more than the total Japanese population), polls indicate that fewer than 30% of Japanese people have any real religious beliefs. "

Source: Wolff, Michael. Where We Stand: Can America Make it in the Global Race for Wealth, Health, and Happiness? Bantam Books: New York (1992). Pg. 205.

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 65% of those in Japan do not believe in God. According to Demerath (2001:138), 64% do not believe in God and 55% do not believe in Buddha, however a very strong majority have engaged in some form or Shinto, Buddhist, or Japanese folk/cultural ritual, such visiting a shrine or temple on the previous New Year’s Day.

And to top it all off According to Johnstone (1993:323), 84% of the Japanese claim no personal religion, but most follow “the customs of Japanese traditional religion.”

How can you be a Shjintoism if the vast majority claim no personal religion and don't believe in the gods? How can 100 million be Shintoists when fewer than 30% of Japanese people have any real religious beliefs Realize this already, the evidence is strongly against you. But at least I can say this, I admire your patience and yor willingness to talk, I'm surprised you didn't edit things yet Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 05:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

September 2010

Your addition to Missionary has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without permission from the copyright holder. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other websites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of article content such as sentences or images. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. Oda Mari (talk) 15:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

You mean this part:

"Tenrikyo has a definite evangelical missionary ethic and has achieved considerable geographic spread, with members organized in about 40 countries. Formal conversion to and affiliation with Tenrikyo are signified by an initial ritual called a "Besseki pledge""

Is that what you don't want? Still though, you didn't have to delete all of the Tenrikyo missions section, what problems do you have with this for example:

"The first missionary of Tsukihi was Miki's daughter Kokan who went to Osaka as a street-missionary" Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 14:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome to re-write the whole thing. Generally, if the first line of a huge swath of new text clearly came from other web site, the rest is suspect, and subject to removal. Most of us are too busy to check each and every sentence; the burden is on the contributor to make sure the text is clean. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

But I still don't get it, what was the copyrighted part, the adherents.com link? What didn't you like? Kim-Zhang-Hong (talk) 01:00, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I googled for the first sentence you quoted and found it verbatim on other sites, and those other sites clearly didn't get the sentence from Wikipedia. Copying and pasting text from other sources can't be done here. You can quote other sources, but that wasn't done in this case. ~Amatulić (talk) 04:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)