:::::::::It's a feeback loop and not by happenstance. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 18:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a feeback loop and not by happenstance. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 18:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
=== Dave souza twists things around ===
{{unindent}} Lar, I'm assuming that in good faith you don't see that you're presenting the kind of appearance of ownership that you're accusing Tony of presenting. If you've driven him away, I'm disappointed as he seems to have been doing a good job of keeping both "sides" in check and encouraging cooperative editing. Good editors are driven away by encouraging persistent pov pushers promoting minority or fringe views, and firm adherence to content policies is needed to improve the editing environment. Civility is also important, but not when civil pov pushing is rewarded. . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 18:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Lar, I'm assuming that in good faith you don't see that you're presenting the kind of appearance of ownership that you're accusing Tony of presenting. If you've driven him away, I'm disappointed as he seems to have been doing a good job of keeping both "sides" in check and encouraging cooperative editing. Good editors are driven away by encouraging persistent pov pushers promoting minority or fringe views, and firm adherence to content policies is needed to improve the editing environment. Civility is also important, but not when civil pov pushing is rewarded. . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 18:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
:That was sarcasm, right? Because as humorous parody, it flat out fails, and as serious discourse, it shows a breathtakingly high level of confusion and denialism. ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 18:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
I recognize that this user page belongs to the Wikipedia project and not to me personally. As such, I recognize that I am expected to respectfully abide by community standards as to the presentation and content of this page, and that if I do not like these guidelines, I am welcome either to engage in reasonable discussion about it, to publish my material elsewhere, or to leave the project.
My real name is Larry Pieniazek and I like LEGO(r) Brand building elements. Feel free to mail me with comments or concerns if you don't want to post.
Here about a BLP that's persistently getting vandalized and you want me to semi protect it? Leave a note below, (User:Lar/Liberal Semi is no longer in use) and I or one of my TPWs will get it.
Here to leave me a message? Response time varies depending on where I'm active... Ping me if it's truly urgent, or find another admin.
Here about accountability? see my accountability page. Note: The apparent listification of the category (it's back but may go away again) does not change my commitment to my recallability in any way
Please read the two blue boxes :).
A Note on how things are done here:
Being a "grumpy old curmudgeon", I have certain principles governing this talk page which I expect you to adhere to if you post here. (This talk page is my "territory", (although I acknowledge it's not really mine, it's the community's) and I assume janitorial responsibility for it.)
I may, without notice, refactor comments to put like with like, correct indents, or retitle sections to reflect their contents more clearly. If I inadvertently change the meaning of anything, please let me know so I can fix it!
While I reserve the right to delete comments I find egregiously poor form, I am normally opposed to doing so and use monthly random archives instead. If you post here, your words will remain here and eventually in the archives, so please do not delete them, use strikeouts. In other words, think carefully about what you say rather than posting hastily or heatedly.
Edit warring here is particularly bad form. One of my WP:TPW's may well issue a short block, so don't do it.
Interpersonal communication does not work when messages are left on individual users' talk pages rather than threaded, especially when a third party wishes to read or reply.
Being a "bear of very little brain", I get easily confused when trying to follow conversations that bounce back and forth, so I've decided to try the convention that many others seem to use, aggregation of messages on either your talk page or my talk page. If the conversation is about an article I will try to aggregate on the article's talk page.
If the conversation is on your talk page or an article talk page, I will watch it.
If the conversation is on my talk page or an article talk page and I think that you may not be watching it, I will link to it in a note on your talk page, or in the edit summary of an empty edit. But if you start a thread here, please watch it.
I may mess up, don't worry, I'll find it eventually. Ping me if you really need to.
please note this is a personal preference rather than a matter of site policy
Just add pages under /Articles/ from 8 on up (User:AeronPeryton/Articles/8 and so on) as needed. Thanks. æronphonehome 12:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, happy to oblige. It may not be this very instant but it will be within a few hours. As a procedural note, if the article has been restored, it doesn't make sense to userify it, as it's already been restored to mainspace and userification would thwart the will of whoever decided to restore it. When it's userified, the entire history will be restored as well (unless there are some revisions that need to stay deleted). If someone decides that the deletion needs to be undone completely, they will presumably move it back. So given the state of flux here, it pays to check to see what's going on before acting. I'll check histories, and I'm suggesting that you check before doing a big edit run, so no one happens to move it while you are editing (maybe add an inuse while doing significant editing? not sure).
Alright then, it'll make more check up work but just move the already red linked deletions. In light of the case built up over this I'll wait and see if the others go down too. In all fairness it's not your fault that people are screaming about this, that happens anytime huge changes are made whether they're needed or not, but the way it was done combined with the attitudes of the people doing the deleting (or supporting it cause they can't do it themselves) makes it hard for me and others to believe that it is in the best interest of Wikipedia, Her purpose and primary goal. Good luck with your case. æronphonehome 14:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
TPWs please feel free to restore/move these if I haven't gotten to them. AP: Thanks for volunteering!++Lar: t/c 12:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolution list
I will update this list as I identify what's going on.
My deletions:
Osamu Migitera - this was never deleted, I just placed a PROD tag on it. You can work on it in mainspace, and if you feel it shouldn't be prodded, remove the tag. I'd appreciate you referencing it well first though. If not I may take it to AfD so we can decide what to do.
Ah, ok, gotcha. ++Lar: t/c 19:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Watching
Unless other articles get nominated this should be it, please userify these just like the others under my /Articles subfolder. Thank you for your help. æronphonehome 14:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, you want all of these userified? I'll go through this list and either userify, or explain why I didn't. It may not be right away but it should be this week. ++Lar: t/c 14:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes please. Thanks again. æronphonehome 00:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Easier to watch them here, because of this whole thing my watchlist is very difficult to read. æronphonehome 18:55, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Userified a few. you need to clean out the templates, categories and the like, ASAP. More soon. ++Lar: t/c 18:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
As for working on them in the mainspace it's clear that we've exceeded the Wikipedia deadline for article completion. æronphonehome 18:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can do the rest of these for you, sure... but can you sort out this many at once? Presumably you have enough to do to keep you busy for a bit, I may not get to the rest right away, but I will get to them, probably within 24 hours or less. ++Lar: t/c 22:05, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe my sarcasm was too subtle. There is in fact no deadline for anything here, but you guys want it in dress uniform right now or you want it gone. So give 'em to me. I'll build what I can and trash anything I can't. At least I'm offering to DO something, right? æronphonehome 02:54, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes you are. And good on you for doing so. I wish more people would. You have my sincere thanks. These articles sat with problems for 3 years and 11M users didn't do anything while the backlog grew and grew. We need a reordering of priorities here. Sometimes a shock to the system is what's required. That's regrettable, but it is what it is. We gave the shock, and now the community, at last, is responding in a myriad useful ways... improving tags, processes and articles. ++Lar: t/c 14:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I solemnly agree, but I still maintain that all the effort put into rocking the boat could be used to plug the holes that the rocking is being done for. Just like I was telling Bali Unlimited in one of the first article to go up for AFD, if you spent half the effort fixing the articles as you do yelling about them things wouldn't be so bad. æronphonehome 16:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather not debate the point here in what is essentially a "work thread". But no. 450,000 BLPs and growing. How many are problematic? No one knows for sure but it's a large number. The backlogs grew and grew and grew. Efforts to do anything less radical were thwarted. Enough. ++Lar: t/c 16:48, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not disagreeing with you, more like lamenting. At least you're being a real person without an apparent social disorder. I guess I just need- *sniff* someone to talk to... ^_- æronphonehome 19:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
real person, without a social disorder???? [citation needed] ... at least according to some folk. :) Lament away, though. Because I agree. It's too bad it came to this. ++Lar: t/c 19:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least not one you can't handle. I don't like how mass deletion and bad attitudes seem to always go together. I put up a watchlist since I doubt this thing is over and while other people are open to mass deletion I'm open to mass adoption. Thanks for your help so far. æronphonehome 18:59, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also what's going on with this: Wikipedia:AN3#User:AeronPeryton_reported_by_User:JBsupreme (see lower on this page too)... Please don't edit war. Please discuss things and arrive at a good arrangement. Removing red links is legitimate maintenance. ++Lar: t/c 02:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's why I'm keeping this list on your talk page. If you want it somewhere else just let me know. As for the spat with the deletion brothers, what can you do? My last attempts to talk with both of them were simply deleted. It doesn't get any unfriendlier than that. They're both unashamedly crude, but I get disciplined. Gotta really love this place to give a care about it sometimes. Look towards the bottom too, I have a couple of questions. æronphonehome 17:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re the list, I'm fine with it here, but fair warning, I archive my talk page monthly and so all the Jan stuff (unless it's sitll active) will get archived away... so you may want to make a list in your own userspace or whatever. I thought maybe you wanted those actually userified. If you do just ask, I am happy to but I need to know, right now I'm not totally clear. As for the other matter, I'l comment below. But I'd again implore you to try to talk to folk first, and avoid edit warring. I think at least one of your "adversaries" thinks you're the one not being comunicative, so maybe a reset and start over might help.... put the past behind you and communicate clearly and hope for the best. ++Lar: t/c 20:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the list is there in the hopes that you will userify those as well. I didn't want to make a new entry on your talk page every time yet another article went under. I imagine the scope of what I'm asking your help with will be active for a while, so if you archive this section I'll just fish out the ones that still need to be done and put it somewhere else.
I'll respond to the rest below in our other conversation. æronphonehome 21:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A serious question
OK, I get that the BLP situation has been festering for a long time, and I get the argument that we have an ethical responsibility to cut through the crap and actually do something about material with the potential to cause real-life harm. I was thinking through the implications, and I have a serious question.
Suppose that I've concluded that our medical articles contain a great deal of material that is incorrect, misleading, and promotional; that presents isolated preliminary studies as if they were conclusive truth; and that presents discredited or unproven treatments in an overly credulous fashion. Suppose I had concrete data indicating that regardless of our hidden disclaimer, Wikipedia is among the most prominent sources of medical information (e.g. PMID 19390105, PMID 19501017, etc).
A reasonable person could conclude that erroneous or misleading medical information on Wikipedia has at least as much, if not far more, potential for real-life harm than does biographical-article vandalism or the presence of neutral/positive but unsourced statements. Following this train of thought to its logical conclusion, would extreme measures (of the sort envisioned and carried out on BLPs) not be equally or more justified, on the same ethical grounds, in our medical articles? Again, this isn't a trick question - it's a serious train of thought sparked by the recent BLP flap. MastCellTalk 19:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, that's a good question all right. A snap answer is that there isn't necessarily an equivalence between incorrect BLPs and incorrect material of other kinds. Incorrect medical information is a very serious problem but it's not causing harm in quite the same way.
If I (or my doctor acting as my agent) choose to use unverified information and it causes me harm, that's negligence. My negligence. It's information I actively sought out and then misapplied (or my agent did). ON the other hand if I'm detained by the TSA for days, or fired from my job, or my reputation is damaged, because of misleading information about me in a BLP, it's not my negligence that caused it. I'm the innocent victim.
A subtle distinction perhaps, and perhaps a meaningless one, but I don't think so. It thus argues that it is reasonable to ask for more responsibility for BLPs, because the BLP victim isn't the consumer and has no control over what others do with the information.
That in no way denigrates how important it is that all our information be as accurate as we can arrange. ++Lar: t/c 20:16, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno, Lar, I think from a purely legal perspective you are ignoring the fact that killing someone harms not only that person, but also the people who were otherwise positively impacted by their life - spouse, kids, parents, whatever. Those individuals did nothing wrong, but because our medical disclaimer is A. Buried and B. Never Enforced, they lost their sole breadwinner to the fact they believed colloidial silver could cure AIDS. Hipocrite (talk) 21:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's a good point. But that is a knock on effect, and there is still someone (other than an anonymous and hard to track down editor) to hold responsible. Bears more thought. ++Lar: t/c 22:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just lurk here on occasion, but wanted to weigh in that Wikipedia is what wikipedia is, and really, as far as medical advice goes, there are plenty of fringe lunacy sites out on the web that look mainstream and have totally bogus information that lack even the editability of wikipedia. Anyone who takes medical advice (or any other kind of advice, legal, psychological,e tc...) off of the internet -- and not just wikipedia but also including WebMD or the Mayo clinic!-- without vetting it through a trusted licensed professional is sort of an idiot. (Anyone remember Laetrile -- and that scam predated the internet) That said, I noticed that there was a big BLP dump into WPEQ for us to fix, and it made me thing about how the notion of verifying sources and getting stickier about having references is not entirely a bad thing...maybe WP Medicine has the personnel to start a similar project to that of the push to verify the BLPs. Just food for thought. Back to lurker mode now — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 19:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, if some project wanted to do such a drive, frankly, it would be awesome. And for people who don't want to work on BLPs but still want to make things better in a meaningful way, it's a good project! I'm just worried about BLPs and have been for a while. ++Lar: t/c 03:37, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What about other topics that can cause harm?
I wonder what the standard would be for medical articles, as another lurker around here. With BLPs, off the top of my head, we remove potentially damaging material that's poorly sourced. It's easy enough for most people to understand. Could something as simple be devised for medical articles? There may be intricate issues relating to pseudoscience and what weight to give it, but I get the feeling MastCell is talking more about direct statements about procedures or the medical benefits of certain treatments. So perhaps an analogous provision would say, for instance, "Poorly sourced statements about medical treatments should be removed immediately, not subject to 3RR." I am not following the current discussions about BLP, admittedly, so perhaps there are stronger protections like flagged revisions or whatnot that you have in mind. This would seem to sharpen the question of how an adequately narrow standard could be created (would it go so far as to cover all medical information?). The next question that pops into my mind is whether there are other fields or topics with similar risks. How to repair your circuit breaker, maybe. It's an interesting question, I agree. Mackan79 (talk) 06:19, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, the problem is that you really can't idiot-proof anything. You make a good point: medicine can be dangerous, but so can electrical repairs, tree-trimming, truck driving, who knows where it will end? I suppose a distinction is that a poor BLP hurts a specific individual, while a poor article on medicine or home electronics hurts no one simply by existing, it is simply inviting people who don't use common sense to self-nominate for a Darwin Award! Montanabw(talk) 07:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, we think of defamation as a harm that flows more directly from something being written, whereas other types of statements usually require someone else to cause the direct harm. And yet, people rarely die from being lied about. Do people neglect to go to the doctor because of bad advice on the internet? It seems plausible to me that removing potentially defamatory statements is just a much simpler problem to deal with than improving the quality of medical information on the internet, or at least that each may require a different approach. Mackan79 (talk) 08:27, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think fixing BLPs is (at least in terms of what needs to be done to fix them) easier than fixing the accuracy problem in general. But whether there is will in the community to fix them is a different question. The RfC seems to be losing steam, as they often do. We shall see. ++Lar: t/c 03:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WMC's civility probation
Hi Lar, I am a bit flummoxed as to what to do, I know you were involved in the additional civility probation condition wording a couple of dayd ago, I have an issue with the way it is being administered by User 2over0 and I am just not getting a satisfactory reply from him. I reported the issue at the probation page this morning and User 2over0 closed the thread without discussion as no action I felt this was not correct and I moved my question to his talkpage, WMC replied there with what appeared to me to be more uncivil comments compounding the issue, Admin 2over0 has edited but has not replied to my question, I am at a loss as to what to do for the best, I hope you don't mind me asking you to have a look at my report and please comment or suggest how I can best deal with my report.
User 2over0 acting in his capacity as an Administrator has imo failed to act regards the requests asked of him in regards to Climate change, my specific complaint is his failure to act on a report I made to him in regards to William M Connelly incivility after a probation report in his name this morning , it is important imo that the issues around global warming probation are dealt with in a fair way, imo this report is a clear violation by WMC or his recent additional probation, in my opinion WMC has failed to take the new conditions on board and is continuing in the same manner. Here is the report that I feel has not been acted upon when imo it is a clear violation of WMC's additional civility probation.
(note from Lar: the above was posted by Off2RioRob at 16:11, 29 January 2010}
Demeaning names
I would have thought that considering the only very recent additional civility conditions applied to WMC in reference to demeaning other editors that this edit on his talkpage from yesterday is a violation of those conditions, he clearly refers to editors as the idiots. Could you let me know your opinion as regards this edit, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 11:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Especially in regard to these two parts of the recent closing report from yourself ... he (WMC) is further warned to refrain from using septic and similar derogatory termsand Please be careful when throwing around terms that might be interpreted to refer to your fellow volunteers - even if a subtle dig falls within the letter of WP:Civility, it can still sting and contribute to the level of dysfunction at those pages.... I would have thought that whilst in discussion with User Short Brigade Harvester Boris about the Skeptic editors on his talkpage that WMC referring to them as the idiots is a clear violation of the sections of the report that I have posted here. Off2riorob (talk) 21:11, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd just like to second these concerns. Admin:2/0 has edited numerous times since the questions were posed to him by multiple editors. He's only given a passing nod to the concerns about Gavin Collins' draconian 3 month article ban, while ignoring completely the concerns about his leniency toward WMC. This has to stop. UnitAnode 21:20, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Third. I too have multiple open questions to 2/0 that he has simply ignored; meanwhile, he is more than willing to act with force on Gavin Collins. And I also echo the concerns of others about BozMo, who absolutely should NOT be acting as a neutral admin there. ATren (talk) 23:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Bozmo should be removed from enforcement, as he absolutely is not neutral in these matters. UnitAnode 00:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He has commented on his talkpage to my question but he has not answered it, is makes me feel awful, I have made a request from the administrator that is claiming to be the overseer in this issue and I haven't even had the respect of a straightforward answer, awful. Off2riorob (talk) 00:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking here: There are a lot of sharp elbows being swung in this area. It comes from all sides, but the "AGW defenders" as a group may have a bit of a bunker mentality. (1) And I agree that perhaps the reporting and enforcement may have been somewhat imbalanced at the sanctions page. But I think focusing on civility misses the crux. Civility is important, but what is more important is whether the articles are balanced properly, are written in a proper NPOV tone, and give the appropriate amount of coverage to the mainstream view without either overweighting or unfairly excluding other views. As an outsider looking in I think things are tilted a bit. That's concerning. Especially because that sort of thing tends to turn off those who share mainstream views but are disinclined to get involved because of the high levels of hostility. ++Lar: t/c 03:16, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1 - see, for example the threads just above where it seems some members of that "group" seem intent on taking me to task while being unwilling to answer direct questions.
Thanks for commenting Lar, if your going to impose sanctions then good balanced management of them is important or they become of no help with the issues, but saying that I think that as the issue has been brought to peoples attention that it appears generally to be improving, as in that old motto, keep your head down or you'll get it shot off. Off2riorob (talk) 14:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In all honesty, if a topic I cared deeply about was beset with >500 sockpuppets of a single agenda-driven editor, on top of the usual drive-through agenda accounts that beset every controversial corner of Wikipedia, not to mention being attacked in published opinion pieces which display an ignorance of Wikipedia's basic workings... I might develop a bunker mentality too. I can see why people are worked up about heavy-handedness on the "mainstream" side, but I think there's a corresponding lack of interest or empathy for the conditions that create the bunker mentality in the first place. The bunker mentality is real, but the dominant mentality on the other side is at least as toxic, if not more so. If you try to address one half of the problem in isolation, you're unlikely to succeed.
I'm curious where, specifically, you belive that climate-change articles are "tilted". The scientific and mainstream press, when it has noted these articles, has been quite positive about their presentation. A 2005 piece in Nature, aimed at encouraging experts to participate on Wikipedia, cited climate change articles as an area where "skeptical" editing threatened the project's scientific respectability ("In politically sensitive areas such as climate change, researchers have had to do battle with sceptics pushing an editorial line that is out of kilter with mainstream scientific thinking." Nature 2005 438(7070):890, PMID 16355169). A rather famous piece from the New Yorker also commented on the climate change articles:
For all its protocol, Wikipedia’s bureaucracy doesn’t necessarily favor truth. In March, 2005, William Connolley, a climate modeller at the British Antarctic Survey, in Cambridge, was briefly a victim of an edit war over the entry on global warming, to which he had contributed. After a particularly nasty confrontation with a skeptic, who had repeatedly watered down language pertaining to the greenhouse effect, the case went into arbitration... It can still seem as though the user who spends the most time on the site—or who yells the loudest—wins. [2]
The climate-change article also received high praise from experts in the field in a 2006 Denver Post article ("a great primer on the subject, suitable for just the kinds of use one might put to a traditional encyclopedia." [3]). I know it's fashionable at present to depict these articles as some sort of embarassment to Wikipedia, but the fact is that they are not perceived as such by reputable, mainstream observers. And when these observers comment on the associated conflicts, it is usually to say that "skepticism" is given excess prominence, rather than suppressed. That's not to say that there aren't real behavioral issues, and the editing atmosphere definitely needs work all around. But you argued that a focus on civility misses the point, and it's more important to assess whether we're achieving our goal of producing content worthy of a serious, respectable reference work. So you can breathe a bit easier in that regard. :) MastCellTalk 21:46, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Briefly... You're citing stuff from 2005 and 2006. I think things have changed since then.
As for where things are tilted in article space, one area that comes to mind easily is all the churn about what to name the article on the email hacking incident. There are others. In userspace, one quick example would be the exchanges above where the "bunker inhabitants" seem to be trying to trip me up somehow, but won't say what they really mean, and won't answer questions. I think that sort of behavior alienates folk who might otherwise want to step in and try to hep keep the articles properly balanced. I know it turns me off. You take a sample of those folks views on dozens of fringe science questions and then of mine and you're going to find congruence. And yet I'm the enemy, apparently, because I don't care for their tactics. The ends don't justify the means. The articles have to be kept balanced but at what cost? This is not a new problem. We saw it with ID, with homeopathy, with cold fusion, you name it. It's not merely a focus on civility that's needed, it's a focus on overall editor behavior. ++Lar: t/c 21:57, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Things have changed since 2006, but not in the way you're implying. The centralization of power and deference to "established" contributors was much more ingrained in 2006 (when I started editing) than it is now. The sort of policing that used to be practiced on the global-warming pages - and, I might add, which produced the work spoken of highly by Nature and the New Yorker - would never be possible today. Compared to the medical articles I worked on in 2006, where an editor could aggressively push nonsense more or less indefinitely, that sort of thing was stomped out quickly on climate-change pages. One checkuser used to run a huge number of queries on "skeptical" editors of climate-change articles, a practice which has since ceased due in large part to community uproar. I'm not saying we should go back to those days - in many ways, the current level of accountability is a huge improvement - but the bottom line is that any "suppression of minority viewpoints" was worse in 2005-2006, when these complimentary reviews were published.
I think we're in agreement with a lot of the "bunker mentality" stuff; certainly I see your point in your second paragraph. There's no question that people on the "mainstream" side are alienating the reasonable middle by overreacting. I would like that to change, but that's unlikely to happen if this is tackled solely as a problem of misbehaving "vested contributors". MastCellTalk 22:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
MastCell, with respect to your last concern about it being "tackled solely as a problem of misbehaving vested contributors", I would suggest that the "other" problem is already being tackled, and has been for some years. Scibabies are efficiently rounded up (even without the omnipresent checkuser), and overly tendentious "skeptical" editors are usually dealt with using topic bans and blocks. The remaining problem, as I see it, is that similarly tendentious editors on the other side are not dealt with. This is in evidence on the probation page, where skeptic-leaning editors are banned much more quickly than proponent editors.
So, what may appear to be "solely dealing with vested contributors" may actually be leveling the playing field and treating both sides equally. ATren (talk) 23:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument assumes that, absent administrative bias, "skeptics" and people who accept the mainstream scientific view of climate change would be sanctioned at an equal pace. I don't know that I agree with that a priori assumption. The goal of our scientific coverage is to provide an outline of topics that accords with current mainstream scientific thought. When editors consistently move us away from that goal, then they may well be sanctioned at a greater clip than editors who don't, regardless of politeness. The playing field is level - everyone is being judged by whether their contributions help achieve the project's goals. But I suppose that's a philosophical question where we differ, as reasonable people sometimes do. MastCellTalk 23:52, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need to hand out sanctions exactly equally. That misses the point. What we need to do is hand out sanctions in a balanced manner. Right now the playing field isn't level, that's my view. If everyone were in fact being judged by their contributions, I think things would be a bit different. ++Lar: t/c 15:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On playing fields and the levelness thereof
(outdent)I'm not convinced the playing field is level. Again, I refer you to the threads above... for example User_talk:Lar#Comments_at_the_WP:GS.2FCC.2FRE_page. Those threads leave me queasy at best (is that the field tilting?). ++Lar: t/c 00:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
MastCell, I think that many of the questions being debated (such as due weight for sourced claims) are sufficiently "gray" that it's not possible to make an objective judgement as to which editors in the debate are moving us closer to "the goal". It may be that no single editor is 100% correct in their analysis. For such situations, clarity is obtained only after respectful discussion between reasonable editors - but this is impossible in a hostile atmosphere, and that is why civility is important. Again, this assumes that the disruptive and tendentious elements are removed, including the "Scibabies". But we also must remove (or reform) long term editors who refuse to acknowledge and respect reasonable editors who happen to disagree on the fine points. ATren (talk) 00:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with pretty much everything in your post. I have a healthy respect for the subjectivity of most judgments about blocks and bans. The only thing I would add is that it's unreasonable to expect someone to treat you with more respect than you show them. To be clear, I don't think that banning a greater number of "skeptics" is the answer. I would like to see someone - anyone - commit to taking the high road. That means ignoring petty name-calling or insults directed at oneself, and ceasing to dish them out to others. If a few people on each "side" were willing to do this, the problem editors - on both sides - would find themselves effectively marginalized.
Lar, without trying to be difficult, I'm not sure what about the thread in question makes you queasy, nor what about it suggests an uneven playing field. MastCellTalk 04:10, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to go out on a limb here: William M. Connolley will never be "marginalized", no matter how bad his behavior becomes. He has far too many supporters who rationalize and justify the way he treats people, no matter how bad it is. UnitAnode 04:14, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
MastCell, I'm not sure why you don't get why I'm discomfited by the rhetorical approach in the thread ref I gave you. Read it again... Consider the part that starts here. A quick review: SBHB turns up to criticise my evenhandedness, and uses the term "the consensus perspective". I ask him what he means, exactly, and he answers (with a somewhat snappish/snarky edit summary " OK, I'll play along, though I may eventually regret it...") and when I ask for clarification by way of giving an example that I think cuts to the heart of the problem... a person who accepts pretty much everything the "bunker guys" do about how the world is, except who has some qualms about some things, his response is "I give up" with edit summary "indeed, yes, now I regret it"... no real attempt to engage. This goes on for pages and pages with several other members of the "bunker guys" participating, and I never do get a straight answer. Again, I thought my hypothetical was worthy of investigation, it was a great example of someone that is their ally in all but exact, slavish adherence to their tactics. But they displayed the very tactics that I'm concerned about in a conversation that I was trying to use to get at what the problem is. And you wonder why I'm queasy? Really? ++Lar: t/c
As one of the bunker guys, I'm happy to answer any question you might have. Apparently, your question was "What is "the consensus perspective"? Is that a POV of some sort? And who are "those editing against" it?"
The "Consensus perspective" is the broad and basically unchallenged perspective held by the vast and overwhelming majority of informed experts regarding climatology that a human-driven increase in atmospheric CO2 has, is, and unless reversed, will lead to an overall increase in global surface temperature, and that that overall increase in global surface temperature will have negative effects of varying (but substantial) degrees on the quality of life of humans. There is a tiny minority of dissident scientists whose roundly ignored views are excluded from scientific articles, per "generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority." Note that I am refering only to articles about the science of global warming. More to come.
The "Consensus perspective" is not a POV of some sort. It is the only significant viewpoint that has been published by a reliable source with respect to the science.
However settled the science might be, the politics are quite different. Because the creation of atmospheric CO2 is an externality, it creates rent seeking behavior in beneificiaries of the externality - specifically, CO2 producers. In this case, that rent-seeking behavior has been opposition to introduction of pigouvian taxation and coasean bargaining via political manuevering. Specifically, some of the future rents created by restrictionless generation of CO2 are allocated to individuals known as lobbyists whose job is to influence public opinion and the opinion of political figures. Part of this involves riling up less than fully-expert individuals about how a giant cabal of evil scientists is trying to take over the world and turn off their air conditioning units. Suitably riled up, those individuals are mad, and try to poke holes into the science, alledging all kinds of nefarious controversies - see global warming controversy and Climate change denial. Now, those riled up amatures and experts in the wrong fields have no effect on the science, but a great deal on the politics. The problem is that those riled up individuals sometimes show up at Wikipedia and try to edit the articles on the science to conform to their view. Is everything clear now? Hipocrite (talk) 15:28, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. The question that has been dodged, is not the one you answered in detail. As a note I already knew everything you answered in detail, having been a Libertarian for years and knowing quite a bit about rent seeking, externalities, lobbyists, and the conceptual tragedy of the commons, but it's a good set of references nonetheless, thanks for typing it out.
Rather, the question that has been dodged was the one that was posed by me at 03:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC) That question is rather more specific to the situation here at WP, instead of the wider world. And thus subject to less moralization or regurgitation of already known things. ++Lar: t/c 15:47, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Having had the fortunate opportunity to participate in the Military History project early on in my Wikipedia sojourn, I know what effective and congenial collaboration looks like and feels like. I think all of us do. When it happens, we have a feeling that everyone involved is making an effort to build a balanced, complete, neutral article. We feel that their contributions are sincere, honest, and without guile.
Knowing how this feels, we can also tell when these attributes of effective collaboration are missing, such as when fellow participants use subtle but unmistakably condescending, insulting, and/or patronizing edit summaries, make demeaning or evasive comments, and/or use delaying tactics on discussion pages. Such tactics earned a number of editors long topic bans from the Palestine/Israel articles. I think Lar knows what I'm talking about. If anyone else is unsure of what I'm talking about, I'm sure I can find some examples of effective and honest collaboration which could be used to contrast with what we've been seeing in the GW articles for the past several years. Cla68 (talk) 16:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's it exactly. This topic area is not collegial. Thank you, Cla68, for expressing this so clearly, and with such a cogent example... Milhist is disproportionately rich with Wikipedia's best work. ++Lar: t/c 16:14, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hipocrite: A swing
I think I'll take a shot at the second question, which was "(1. OK. So what other "perspectives" are there?) (2. If I, for example, think that man's impact on climate and the environment is sharply negative, and is of serious concern, and that it's likely that it has caused warming, and will cause serious harm to us and the rest of the organisms on earth, and that something ought to be done about it, but I don't necessarily agree that all the data presented by certain parties (c.f. the email scandal for example) as supporting this view necessarily does support it, or has been collated appropriately, or necessarily agree with the relative emphasis given to certain articles here on Wikipedia, does that means I am "editing from the consensus perspective" or not?) (3. What exactly does this consensus cover?)"
There are no other reliably sourced perspectives on the science. There is a reliably sourced other perspective on the politics, which is that the science is bunk, but, to be clear, that perspective is not at all related to the science, and such should be made clear in our articles.
Your views on data are not relevent, as you are not an expert, nor are you published. If you want to discuss how climate science is somehow wrong, you'll need to find relevent reliable sources to back your views on data. There are not yet reliable soruces on the science that show that the emails have done anything to the science, because the emails have not done anything to the science. Reliable sources for science are not single primary papers, or the rantings of physics professors, or newspaper articles by journalists, but rather review articles and influential, multiply cited academic papers. Wikipedia is not the way to change science to reflect what you want it to look like, but rather reflects what the published literature reflects - which is that this email scandal has not made it's way into scientific literature. If you want to discuss what the emails have done with respect to public scandal, that's great, and I don't think anyone is stopping anyone from doing that - except to stop them from saying that the emails have totally discredited climate science.
The consensus view covers the science of global warming, across all articles. It mandates that we not include the tiny-minority view that climate science is wrong. If you have a specific edit you'd like me to explain with respect to the consensus view, or a specific editor who you feel is being inapropriately lumped in with a group of people trying to edit science articles to reflect political opinion, I'm happy to do that, also. Hipocrite (talk) 16:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The first mention of the word "holocaust" on this page is from you, Hipocrite. UnitAnode 17:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's certainly true, but the first mention of "concentration camps" is from Lar, and it's from before I wrote "Holocaust." I'd hate for us to get caught up in this side issue, however. Hipocrite (talk) 18:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No you wouldn't, I suspect (although who knows for sure?). Side issues are exactly the ticket to distract folk from the main point. ++Lar: t/c 18:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't quite understand what you are getting at, Lar? Hipocrite (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a side issue about a side issue, isn't it? The main point is several side issues away now. Maybe that was the point. ++Lar: t/c 18:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Charitably, we should assume that Lar meant the Boer War and it's all a ghastly misunderstanding. Goes off to relieve Mafeking, dave souza, talk 18:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Was wondering when you'd turn up. You're a canonical example of the problem, you know, since you so often indulge in snark to the exclusion of anything else in these bunfights, just like a good enforcer. With that as a preface, you know that wasn't what I meant. Didn't you? ++Lar: t/c 18:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's quite civil, is it? It appears to me that DS was attempting to lighten the dour mood. Hipocrite (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I agree that was his likely intent, but YMMV. As for the first question, I calls them like I sees them, and I've never seen much snark free input from dave souza. We may just hang in the wrong places, I'm sure he's a charming dinner companion. ++Lar: t/c 18:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please assume good faith, I gave you an out, you prefer to confirm that Hipocrite was right in assuming that you'd started the Godwinning. If you read my sense of humour as snark, I find that regrettable, but I do hope you will find that I've made some snark free input here and there. . . dave souza, talk 18:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"I gave you an out, you prefer to confirm that Hipocrite was right in assuming that you'd started the Godwinning."
False dichotomy. I neither thought we were talking about the Boer war nor was I Godwinning. I suspect you knew that already. But why let that stop you? ++Lar: t/c 19:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so I was going to go to Lar's talk page and tell him the first person to not respond to this thread would win the game, but then I looked and I was already at Lar's talk page, and I had just lost the game. Hipocrite (talk) 19:45, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a game I just can't win, since it's my page. And, oh, by the way, I've also just lost the game. Thanks a lot. ++Lar: t/c 20:59, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar steps up to the plate, and staggers from the tilt of the field
Trying again, there are loads of controversial topics that Milhist has dealt with successfully and by and large they've remained collegial, produced more than their fair share of great articles, and are a lively, vibrant, non exclusionary community. The science cabal, (of course [[WP:TINC|it's just a turn of phrase) on the other hand, drives away people from whatever topics it touches. Are you lot just socially inept, or is it a deliberate control mechanism? ++Lar: t/c 18:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I'm socially inept, quick to anger and mostly unwilling to suffer people I consider fools gladly. But, I'm trying to work on that. However, I think to play fair, you do need to note that the articles that you attribute to the "Science Cabal," are viewed by some of the participants in those articles as having real life higher-stakes, and both sides are far more motivated to "win," than in a typical millitary history dispute. I wonder what advice you would give to the "science cabal" that would help us make good articles that serve to inform the populace - that is, you know, the goal of scientists. At the same time, you should probably help the "anti-science cabal" to work with the science cabal, and accept that their fringe views can get airing in articles about their fringe views, but the consistant attempt to push relativity denialism in speed of light isn't helpful or productive. Hipocrite (talk) 18:30, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suffering fools gladly isn't one of my strong suits, either. :) If you really mean what you're asking, try WP:Writing for the enemy as I said above. It's really hard but it works really well. And if you do it, make sure you ask the other side to do it too (and if they won't be fair about it, just revert out your awesome prose). That's my best idea right now. ++Lar: t/c 18:34, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
MilHist is by far the most successful WikiProject we've got. I would, however, be curious to be pointed examples where they had successfully improved an article or group of articles to high quality in a collegial environment in the face of active, bitter political controversy, where people involved in that controversy were recruited and egged on to edit Wikipedia by external partisan outlets, and where massive agenda-driven sockpuppetry was the rule of the day. I suspect that approaches which might be successful when collaborating on a biography of Admiral Nelson might fare less well at 2006 Lebanon War or 2008 South Ossetia war, for example.
I know that in the Medicine WikiProject, we have a much easier time getting acute myeloid leukemia or paracetamol to FA status than we do with Lyme disease, chiropractic, or autism (though the last is an FA, against all odds). I'm not trying to denigrate MilHist - like I said, they're the gold standard for WikiProjects. I would really like to see examples where topics with this degree of external political involvement have been handled collegially. I'm just not sure that you can extrapolate techniques that have worked on less controversial articles to this particular problem without acknowledging its particulars.
I also don't think you're being totally fair to people who work on science articles. After all, 95% of the work they (we) do is uncontroversial and collegial, and scientific coverage is one of the very, very few aspects of Wikipedia that has been singled out for external praise from serious, reputable sources. I don't think that science articles could reflect that kind of credit on Wikipedia if they were written and patrolled by an angry, insular, socially inept cabal. MastCellTalk 23:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hipocrite: and a miss
I'm afraid that still missed the mark. Except perhaps to highlight the difficulty in working in this area. Answers like that are what chase like minded (as far as the science and the politics go) folk who are not keen on your methods away. ++Lar: t/c 16:51, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, I wonder what the vaunted MilHist group would do if faced with a group of people desperate to say that the only reasons the Greeks won the Peloponnesian War was their utilization of advanced sword-wielding-skeleton technology. Wait, I do know what would happen - because I've seen it in action. They would do exactly the same thing that happened with Global Warming, and get the tiny-minority views right out of there|. Hipocrite (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is that the best example you've got? The matter of exactly what the causes and impact of global warming are isn't quite as clear cut as that. Using strawman examples like that undercuts your argument and worse, makes you look more bunkerish. A more instructive example might be how Milhist dealt with controversy over the use of the atomic bomb. Or coverage of concentration camps. Those are both very controversial topics with significant minority views, and yet by and large that group of editors worked together, and remained collegial and non exclusionary. ++Lar: t/c 17:06, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying our holocaust article should note the minority view that it didn't happen? Have you reviewed the treatment of Holocaust denial in the article about the Holocaust? I think that's an excellent analogy here. You alledge that editors "remained collegial and non exclusionary," but you seem to be forgetting all the people that got banned right out of there. Of course, denying the holocaust is more offensive than denying global warming, but it's certainly just as wrong.Hipocrite (talk) 17:15, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Furter, I think you are giving short shrift to the revisionist stance on the atomic bomb by saying they have less evidence than the global warming deniers. At least they have all kinds of real academic historians getting published about it - including some who are not just a little bit respected. Hipocrite (talk) 17:20, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, this gets better and better. You raised a strawman argument about some completely ludicrous theory of animated skeletons used in an ancient war that maybe 3 people in the entire world even have heard of much less given credence to. I rebutted you with two examples that (I think) bracket this topic in their percentage of adherents and you go off on holocaust denial. Way to miss the point completely. Look, milhist does a far better job of dealing with reasonable disagreements about the amount of coverage to give something, in general, than you guys do. You can't worm away from that. And you especially can't get away with trying to twist the arguments around to try to cast aspersions on me ... not here, that just won't fly. Try again, or better, admit that there's a problem. Or go away. But whatever you do, stop being hypocritical. ++Lar: t/c 17:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't deny for a second that MilHist appears to have a better track record. Of course, they are entering from a far easier set of starting circumstances. Clearly we are talking past eachother - You stated "Or coverage of concentration camps." I responded to that. There are about as many qualified historians who deny the camps as there are qualified climatologists who deny AGW. The difference is that there are a lot of politicians and corporations and cranks who deny AGW, and no politicians and no corporations but a lot of cranks who deny the Holocaust. I certainly don't intend to cast aspersions on you - if you could point out where you see me doing that, I'd happily redact. I've admitted there's a problem multiple times, and I've admitted it's from both sides - diffs on request. The only difference I see, however, is that the badness from one side is at least moral. Of course, I'm certain the other side sees it that way also, but, of course, both you and I think they are wrong, per your earlier statements? And, for the record, let me further note that the incivility on this page didn't start with me, wasn't continued by me and was all directed at me. You ask that people start at home, I hope, by being civil and respectful. Please convince everyone here to do so. Hipocrite (talk) 17:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"the vaunted MilHist group" vs. "I don't deny for a second that MilHist appears to have a better track record" ... so are they worthy of your scorn when you call them "vaunted" or do they actually have a better track record, one that you could learn from? When was the last time you tried WP:Writing for the opponent, for example? ++Lar: t/c 18:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Vaunted (adj) highly or widely praised or boasted about. I thought it was an appropriate moniker. I don't have any scorn for MilHist - none at all (well, some of the members use MilHist as a stepping stone to level up, but that's not the project's fault). I think I wrote for the other side about 15 minutes ago when I removed this per a request from the other side, which I suspect will be opposed by at least one on "my side." There's also the page where I suggested that WMC be given a real final civility warning - that was what, 5 minutes ago? But, if you can think of an article where it would be approprite for the "other side" to have a bit written for them, I'm happy to give it a go. Can you suggest a spot? How about something in economics where the Austrians are under-represented, because then I'll actually be speaking in my speciality. Hipocrite (talk) 18:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thought that was a good edit. I think it's not just about reverting or quick changes, though. If you have time you might try writing something that really tries to redo areas where there has been contention. ++Lar: t/c 16:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd further ask that you review the articles I linked to in my first post in this subsection, as it was adressed to MillHist's passing the buck with respect to the atomic bomibings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hipocrite (talk) 17:59, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
<undent>Do not compare disagreeing about AGW with holocaust denial. It's offensive and vulgar in the extreme, and a symptom of the problem at related pages. UnitAnode 17:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly hope you're not adressing that at me, given that Lar brought it up, and to my knowledge, the only gentile in the room is you. Hipocrite (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What? ++Lar: t/c 17:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To add my own tuppenceworth on the topic you seemed to be discussing, I have no expertise on the significance of AGW, but all I've seen is explicit that the majority scientific view is that it is of considerable significance. Our articles should give due weight to that, and if more editors accepted that policy we might see peace in our articles. . . dave souza, talk 17:58, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That didn't parse for me. Could you try again please? ++Lar: t/c 18:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As you ask, the scientific consensus is that human contributions to global warming are shown by scientific studies, and are a serious problem. Everyone should expect that due weight will be given to that position, and minority views shown in relation to that position. If newcomers are educated in that requirement, it could reduce talk page squabbles. Thus, we may show that the political majority view supports inaction, while still being clear about the scientific consensus. Hope that's clearer. dave souza, talk 18:57, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's assume that I know what the scientific consensus is about AGW, shall we, since so many people keep explaining it (when I have never said I didn't know what it was, or given any indication that I didn't). Still didn't logically parse your statement though, since it assumes the conclusion it's trying to show. It's not clear to me which articles in a general interest encyclopedia need to have their weight governed by the scientific consensus, other than ones that are purely concerned with the science (and completely omit any discussion of social, economic, or political aspects). Speculation on what the scientific consensus view of AGW implies for us (and I agree it's dire pretty much across the board, and something needs to be done, and soon) is OR, so all we can do is report on what others say. ++Lar: t/c 19:48, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to. The social implications, economics and politics of AGW, for example, inevitably involve acceptance or rejection of the science. The articles should be clear about the scientific consensus [as shown by rs's] wherever points about the science are made. The articles about the science of AGW should briefly mention the other aspects in summary style, with links. As you'll know, evolution is an example, and intelligent design makes the scientific consensus clear as well as describing the social and political phenomenon. Hope we agree on this, won't trouble you any more with going over what must be old ground for you. My optimistic opinion is that more acceptance of these principles would lead to less acrimonious argument, ymmv. . dave souza, talk 20:22, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the goal you outline but I suspect that we don't agree about which articles bin where. Nor about the methods you use to try to achieve the end results. The ends don't justify the means. And that's the real point, in my view, of the N kb of stuff in all these sections. ++Lar: t/c 23:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good catch. The difference though, is in whether it's exceptional action (a one time deletion run to sort a few BLPs) to deal with an extraordinary problem (the biggest problem facing the project) or routine everyday action (article control of the entire GW/climate topic area) to deal with ... what? Keeping a particular POV? Not the same thing at all. ++Lar: t/c 02:22, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should discuss this with User:Ikip - either way the problem is building an encyclopedia with valid information. Hal peridol (talk) 14:53, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, sorry. The two situations are vastly different. ++Lar: t/c 15:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In this situation, you are decrying a lack of collegiality; in the other, stating that people should "lead, follow, or get out of the way". It is your opinion that the unsourced BLP issue is supremely important, and that the problem with the GW articles is that one group is trying to control them to keep out a particular POV. I am merely pointing out that not everyone agrees with you - I agree with you concerning BLPs for the same reason that I disagree with you concerning the GW articles, because I wish to see articles based on good information. On the one hand, any unreferenced article is not knowledge, merely a set of unverified statements, with the added detriment of being potentially damaging in the case of BLPs. On the other, an article that, for example, uncritically weights blogosphere reaction to a paper on the thermodynamic impossibility of the greenhouse effect equally with the enormous body of research that supports the accepted consensus on it, is also valueless as a source of knowledge. Hal peridol (talk) 15:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Brief Response to Hipocrite
This sounds very suspiciously like SPOV, which is not policy.
This is an appeal to authority, as it assumes that the science is untainted by the misbehavior brought to light in the email scandal, simply because the scientists behind the science say so.
Treating those who disbelieve in some portion of the AGW theory as FRINGE instead of a significant minority does your position no favors.
If there was a significant minority, clearly a substantial number of trained climatologists would be dissenting from things. Where are they? Where are their articles? Why isn't there a scientific debate, if the science is so uncertain? Are you honestly telling me that there is some big lie out there that all of the trained climatologists are part of? Hipocrite (talk) 17:07, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that portions of the emails dealt specifically with your "where are they at" argument. They're actively shut out of most of the peer-reviewed journals. It creates a catch-22 for scientists who are skeptical: publish in non-peer-reviewed places and be derided; or submit to peer-reviewed journals and be shut out altogether. UnitAnode 17:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying that there are a lot of academic climatologists who are publishing articles in non-reviewed journals sceptical of the scientific consensus on AGW? I'd love to read some of those articles - could you forward them to me? Hipocrite (talk) 17:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your uncivil condescension aside, I never said there were "a lot of academic climatologists", though your creation of a false requirement that appropriately skeptical scientists be "academic climatologists" is noted. With that, I'm disengaging, s conversing with you is pointless. UnitAnode 17:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Look, I'm not a climate change expert. I don't follow the literature. I thought you were saying there were people publishing outside of the typical peer review - and I wanted to get a look at it. Please don't assume that I was being snide or incivil. I'm not, I'm just not up to speed on the entire corpus of information. I'm also not making a false requirement that skeptical scientists be academic climatologists. I accept anyone in the dicipline they studied. However, I don't think there's a lot of value gleaned from looking at econometric analysis by mathematicians, nor from chemistry by anthropologists, nor from climate modeling by physicists. Further - to your deleted item - Lar said "concentration camps" before I said "Holocaust." Hipocrite (talk) 17:57, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so many sections. A problem with the topic is that a lot of publicity is given to retired amateurs and claims that their work overturns the academic consensus. Until such overturning becomes the scientific consensus our articles should give due weight to the current consensus as the majority view. . . dave souza, talk 18:03, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does that mean excluding all dissent? Would that be the ideal in your view? And is scientific consensus the only valid way to determine the weight of articles on the political aspects of the overall topic? It is not Wikipedia's place to Reveal Truth, it's rather to report what other sources say ... and let the reader draw their own conclusions. ++Lar: t/c 18:28, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not - the political articles should be weighted based on the political debate as evidenced by reliable sources for politics, like newspapers. Hipocrite (talk) 18:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How do you decide what is scientific and what is political? ++Lar: t/c 19:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Denning, the Monfort Professor of Atmospheric Science, said he was pleasantly surprised how the main [global warming] articles 'stick to the science and avoid confusing the reader with political controversy.' Students who want to study up on the controversy, however, find plenty of links if they want them." (Denver Post 2007). It can be done - in fact, according to reliable sources, it is being done. MastCellTalk 23:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you were answering the question I was asking. Further that is from 2007. Didn't we already talk about older sources? ++Lar: t/c 23:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You asked how the science could be successfully separated from the political controversy. I'm suggesting that our existing article structure provides an answer to your question. Because I am a pseudonymous screen name, I don't expect a simple statement of my opinion to carry much weight; hence, I cited an expert in the field, as quoted by a major U.S. newspaper, making the same point. We did talk about older sources; since the article structure of global warming and its content forks is largely unchanged since 2007, I don't see the age of the article as negating its underlying observation. MastCellTalk 23:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I feel the need to remind Dave (and Hipocrite), that we as a project are not controlled by WP:SPOV, as your continual issuance of decrees regarding what must happen in the articles based on "scientific consensus" implies. There is far more to this debate than just the science of one side of the issue -- even if that side currently claims "consensus." UnitAnode 18:32, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reminder. I don't deny for a second that there are other facets to the debate than the science. That's why the article on Global warming controversy exists. Hipocrite (talk) 18:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "other facets" should be given some weight in the main articles, not forked out to their own backwater. UnitAnode 19:17, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Totally. That's why I added a see-also at the top of Global Warming, and note the existance of Global_warming#Debate_and_skepticism - but I'm not quite sure what we're disagreeing about, at this point. Hipocrite (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removal of backlinks to deleted articles
I understand that it is common practice to do this, as I see this form of maintenance performed every day. Well, I wanted to know if you were aware of any policy or guideline that instructs this to be done... is there such a thing? I ask because I've now entangled myself in a dispute with a person who is pretty unhappy about it and has tripped a 5RR as a result (see WP:AN3#User:AeronPeryton_reported_by_User:JBsupreme for details). I've left what I felt were calm and level headed comments on the editor's talk page but was greeted with a less than civil response in return. JBsupreme (talk) 00:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to be bothering you with this shit, really... I took your earlier advice to heart and felt like it backfired. I'll continue to try and keep an open mind here. JBsupreme (talk) 00:18, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Redlinks are a source of growth for the encyclopedia, but only when it makes sense to have them. I don't know of a requirement that removals be done, but I agree with you it's common practice, and that it makes sense if it's not likely that the article would come back. I'm sorry that things went pearshaped. I've commented a bit up (at User_talk:Lar#Userify_request, very last section)... Dunno if that's helpful or not. And it's no bother, don't worry on that score. As for your comments on his talk, I thought they were pretty measured. But I can't find the other half of the conversation so I can't tell... was it on your talk? Best. ++Lar: t/c 03:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it was... [5] Eh, oh well. JBsupreme (talk) 03:35, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I think Aer means well but may not be assuming enough good faith of others. He's working to fix things up, or so it seemed when I reviewed what he was doing before, which is why I was willing to userify things for him. But that talk page post wasn't very friendly, was it? ++Lar: t/c 03:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, see below. ++Lar: t/c 20:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please read and comment on my observation of extensive vandalism to Nate Kaeding's article two weeks ago, and on my request to semiprotect all the articles of players in Super Bowl XLIV for the next two weeks until a week after the game ends. Chutznik (talk) 03:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've commented there as has at least one of my WP:TPW's ... Hope it helps. ++Lar: t/c 05:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Amend recent WMC refactoring ban to explicitly exclude own usertalk?
A user pointed out at my talk that after Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#William M. Connolley: on refactoring comments and civility (note that I changed the title of that section - it is the merged discussion that recently closed with a refactoring ban and a warning), User:William M. Connolley has removed whole comments from his own usertalk. Personally, I did not consider this when discussing the close, which omission I view as an oversight. Removing comments from one's own usertalk is generally given wide latitude, and given the purpose of that page I do not think that it violates the intention of the prohibition. Prodego already expressed here that they are okay with such removals. Would you mind if the refactoring ban is amended to specify that such removals are not included in the prohibition? I have also asked User:LessHeard vanU as the other admin commenting on that thread. Regards, - 2/0 (cont.) 16:20, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Although it's given wide latitude in general, I'm not sure I agree in this case. Can we talk this through there for a bit first? ++Lar: t/c 17:21, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posilutely. I do not think that we should disinclude editing another editor's post to his own talkpage or misrepresenting what they have said, just straight removal with an edit summary that is not uncivil. - 2/0 (cont.) 19:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of any case where an unblocked user has been prohibited from removing material from their own usertalk page (and certainly we've had much worse than WMC come through these parts). Are either of you aware of any case in which such a restriction has been placed? MastCellTalk 21:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A key feature of Wikipedia is that we constantly try new things out to see if they work. This restriction, were it to be placed, would be a new thing, I think. That is not, itself, an argument either for or against it. ++Lar: t/c 22:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking is if we are trying to persuade WMC to act according to the standards and practices expected of all editors, then we shouldn't be disallowing what other editors find commonplace. Hmm? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we seem to be talking it through here rather than there but you certainly have a point, I suppose. ++Lar: t/c 22:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with LHvU. Even blocked users have editorial leeway on their own talk page. ATren (talk) 23:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to quibble but blocked users have less leeway than most editors, they can't remove material that the blocking admins left them, for example. But I'm ok with this. ++Lar: t/c 23:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked users are absolutely permitted to remove material left by the blocking admin, or by anyone else. If a blocked user wants to blank his entire talk page in a huff, that's fine, too. As long as the blocked editor isn't being abusive or disruptive, his privileges to edit and archive his talk page aren't suspended. (Merely deleting a block notice, for instance, doesn't qualify as 'disruptive'.) If you're not sure about this, feel free to confirm at WP:AN — but I'm surprised that you're not already aware. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked users who wish to be unblocked, are not. Hiding the circumstances of their blockage is not allowed. They can go off in a huff if they want, or wait their block out, but as long as they are dialoging about being unblocked, rugsweeping is disruptive. I'm surprised that you're not already aware. ++Lar: t/c 02:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you mean that they can't blank a rejected {unblock} template in order to place another one and pretend the first one never happened — yes, I agree. That would be deceptive, disruptive behaviour. In general, however, blocked users are welcome to remove content from their own talk pages while blocked, including notices from the blocking admin. I agree that an admin reviewing an {unblock} request would probably take a jaundiced view to any 'rugsweeping', but even then there are no hard and fast rules. In any case, I was concerned that you were espousing (and encouraging) the mistaken view that blocked editors are not permitted to delete material from their talk pages — full stop. Your comment didn't talk about best practices for a blocked editor filing an unblock request; it plainly stated that blocked users weren't permitted to remove the comments of the blocking admin. That flat, unqualified statement was not correct, which is something I think we both agree on. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Policy at WP is descriptive. Not prescriptive. No flat, unqualified statement is ever correct. Including your last sentence, in fact. ++Lar: t/c 03:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm really not looking to start a fight here. I just don't want the already-heated situation surrounding WMC to get more inflamed through the introduction of incorrect information. Under the narrow circumstance of 'the blocked editor's {unblock} was turned down', the blocked editor can't remove the rejection. Otherwise, they have a pretty free hand to remove material from their talk pages as they see fit. I agree with you that it is often inadvisable for an editor seeking an unblock to remove the original block notice, but even that's not a hard rule. (Let's say an editor violated 3RR and was blocked. He had an otherwise clean record and history of good contributions, and blanked his talk page out of embarrassment. A few hours later, he posts an unblock request along the lines of "The blocking admin is right; I screwed up and shouldn't have been reverting like that; I'm sorry for the trouble, and I'll stay away from the article for the next couple of days until things cool down" I wouldn't be surprised if the {unblock} were granted.)
Your statement above, "blocked users...can't remove material that the blocking admins left them" just wasn't correct. I was concerned that you genuinely didn't realize that, because it's a mistake that a surprising number of admins seem to make — even some fairly experienced ones. It leads to the ugly situation where an admin starts edit warring with a blocked editor just to keep a scarlet letter on the blockee's talk page. I'd much rather correct that sort of misconception here and now, rather than have to deal with the fallout on AN/I after some future block. Since it seems you just misspoke, I'll not bother you further. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two things, first can you read the first couple of paragraphs of WP:REDLINK at tell me if I'm crazy or not? It starts by saying why red links exist, how important they are, and then it says when bad articles are deleted one should make any link to it go away. It seems contradictory so the way I interpret that is the backlinks should be removed only in the case that it's glaringly obvious that the article will never return. If an article is deleted about a notable or important subject and it was simply not conforming to guidelines and no one was willing to help it do so then I believe, and am supported by WP:REDLINK in thinking, that red links should stay there for future reference and work.
There are figures on Wikipedia that aggregate red links to tell how wanted a non-existent article is. Removing red links on purpose prevents people from getting an accurate reading that way. And what happens when an article is reintroduced that is done proper? You'd have to do a plain text search of Wikipedia to re-link the term or subject manually. What a waste of effort. If that is how the guideline should be interpreted then it seriously needs to be re-evaluated and revised to be clearer of its intent. Otherwise you have what JBSupreme and I had. Is there a process in which policy and guideline can be introduced for overview and discussion?
Second, when an article is created for a person is there a limit to discussing only one single person per article? I was considering taking all the individuals who may not meet notability on their own and wrapping their bios into List of Bemani musicians. The article would assert the person's importance in the series specifically rather than their importance to world in general. If one or more of them are notable enough to have their own article then a stub section in the list would simply link to their own article and give a brief overview of that person inline. I have spent just about no effort on Wikipedia making BLPs so I know next to nothing about the protocol with them (even less so now with this pitchfork riot) so if you can, I would appreciate your help. æronphonehome 18:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok on the first part, I agree with you, the page wording is conflicting. But that is the way of many wikipedia policies. We expect people to use common sense when applying them. What is that page really saying? It's saying that redlinks are good, except when they're bad. They're good if they link to pages that we ought to have, because they're on topics we don't have yet but should. SO link them so the project can grow. They're bad when they link to pages that we ought not to have, because they're typos, misspellings, or (more importantly) on topics we know for sure, or we already decided, we shouldn't have, and it's not likely that will ever change. SO don't link them so people don't get confused and create pages we know not to create.
Where things have gone awry here is that there is a disagreement on certain pages... they were deleted. Normally that's a sign that we shouldn't have a link, and that's why policy says get rid of the links. But in this case they were deleted not because we are sure we should never have an article, they were deleted because they were unsourced and we were playing it safe. Strikes me that some of the redlinks here might well come back as articles, and soon, as soon as they get sourced.
All THAT said, things went in the weeds because edit warring broke out. As soon as that happens, it tends to break down communication. As I said above, I'd try communicating again. I can have a word with JBS if you want. ++Lar: t/c 20:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In response to what you said above, I did try to talk to both of them. When you approach someone with logical rationale (however cynical) and they respond with deleting what you wrote it's pretty obvious who's being uncooperative. I chose to continue reverting the bad idea changes because I see them as just that, and I asked for arbitration (literally), though nothing got intelligently discussed there either (I was blocked by someone involved in all the deletion, surprise surprise). Even though, I can't think of anything you would say to either of them that would change their behaviour for the better... though perhaps you could do something about this? Bali has been doing this to several articles in and not in the process of AfD. Is he trying to bolster his edit count? æronphonehome 21:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As for your second question I honestly don't know. Seems a good question to me. I know we do similar things with songs that don't merit articles, they get described in the album article, and albums, they get described in the musician's article.... Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 20:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes, I'm clearly trying to inflate my edit count. What else could explain my decision to quietly remove a post to my talk page that said I "behave in a manner that goes against the spirit of the Wikipedia project and you barely actually contribute to it so that makes your existence here almost worthless" and that I clearly "have no time in your busy life to be a nice person or to aid and contribute and instead want to see categories of information removed on the grounds of your personal (Oxford-like?) tastes." I was of course thoroughly convinced by your logically devastating statement (demonstrating a mastery of classical rhetoric) that all that was why my "bad faith edits to List of Bemani musicians has been reverted as will anything else that goes against the purpose of this project that I contribute to while you cynically critique."[6]. Of course, a rational contributor in good faith would have responded positively to your edit summaries on your fourth revert calling my efforts "vandalism" [7] and your fifth revert calling them "bad faith."[8]. Well played, sir! I can see why you've declined defending the maintenance of entirely unsourced information about living people on the article's talk page... your case has already been succinctly and irrefutably made. And if that wasn't enough, you finished with a logical flourish: "As for my excuse for exhibiting 3rr behaviour, again, I do not believe that their edits are in keeping with good faith or even good ideas. It feels as though they simply want to delete and bury everything for good."[9].
In fact, the creation and maintenance of unsourced articles on living people has to stop. There are strong ethical, real world reasons for this. There are strong research and verifiability reasons for this that need to be the core of any encyclopedic project. And it's all well-supported by wikipedia's policies. I'm not particularly interested in educating you if you can't be bothered to read and figure it out for yourself. Perhaps Lar will be more patient. One last bit of advice: being nice does not mean "letting you have your way." I was willing to let the edit warring slide after the fourth revert as i informed you on your talk page. That was me being nice. I'll make you a deal: You can do as much original research and unsourced editing as you like to the Dance Dance Revolution walled garden without any interventions from me so long as you leave living people out of it. Any creation of articles on people (or aggregating lists about living people) that are unsupported by reliable sources independent of the subject and that fail to pass any of the notability guidelines, will draw my attention.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a heads up regarding various parties at ANI
Wikidemon is threatening me with ANI again. This time for my work stub-ifying poorly-sourced BLPs to only what the sources confirm. For background, just check my contribs -- and his reversions of a few of them. UnitAnode 19:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Goodness. So much to try to keep an eye on. Why do all these pots boil at the same time? A piece of unrelated advice. Try to do your best to stay on the high road... or at least higher those you find arrayed against you, or it may trip you up. ++Lar: t/c 19:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you writing here of my BLP work, or my anger at the Holocaust comparisons above? UnitAnode 19:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
General advice. Also you may want to check the history of this talk, I reverted your removal of some of your own words per User:Lar/Eeyore Policy... if you want, you may want to strike them... ++Lar: t/c 20:36, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I removed it because it was unresponded-to, but I have no problem with your restoral. UnitAnode 20:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. ++Lar: t/c 22:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like a clarification
If the proposed sanction mean I must have "consensus" before reverting then I'd like that clearly defined due to some people saying "no" all the time with inadequate and constantly changing excuses. Also, I'd like to apologize for the edit warring; from what I'd seen that seemed to be the way things are done on these articles and nobody has made much of a fuss about it before. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:30, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I agree that WMC should have to explain his reverstions in talk, regardless of whether he reverted first not. Otherwise, SBHB, SS or KDP will simply revert before him so he won't be bothered with it. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:32, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, something more than just standing athwart and saying "no" is needed to establish there isn't consensus. I'll mention it. ++Lar: t/c 20:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a bunch, btw, I love your talk page, it's an interesting/funny read. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My pleasure. As for my talk... I get that a lot! Over 348TPWs served. ++Lar: t/c 20:55, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, that's a lot, I didn't know you could do that. According to mine I have 32 people watching my talk page. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No edit warring restriction for KDP?
He edit wars quite frequently in the area of probation. Would 2rr be more acceptable to the other admins? TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather you didn't lobby me here. Asking for clarification is one thing. Lobbying maybe not so much? Lobby on the page itself. ++Lar: t/c 22:26, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Np, I wasn't sure how much of that mess upstairs was being read. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:36, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I put my money where my mouth was - where's my change?
I put my money where my mouth was - I crossed the bunker Here, and engaged in collaborative editing with editors who are on the other "side" here.
In response to all of this good faith and major attempts at civility on my part, here's what I got - and it's not even exaustive:
My attempt to deescalate on a talk page was described as "talking in thinly veiled terms to antagonize his fellow editors."[10]
The talk page where editors were almost working together to improve the article is just as worthless as ever thanks to 142.68.92.131 (talk·contribs) and 142.68.95.166 (talk·contribs), with reports about this going totally ignored at the enforcement page.
Of course, this is just one day of sampling. If you want to know why there's a bunker mentality and no civility at climate change? Because when people try to fix things by doing right they get shit on. Hipocrite (talk) 18:03, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you want me to go look at this and say something? I think maybe changing the mentality will take more than just one person, just one or a few times. It may take multiple tries by multiple people working at the same time, together. Keep trying, please! ++Lar: t/c 19:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Please review the talk-page bombing by 142.68.0.0/16, and User:GoRight's continued access to his talk page. Hipocrite (talk) 19:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Did you review GoRight? Immediately after he launched two assaults on me, he is being unblocked. Hipocrite (talk) 13:51, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The IP activity is being dealt with I think, see the enforcement page, 2/0 has it I think... I ran a CU to determine collateral damage at 2's request. I'm sorry, I did not look at GoRight. I will try to, today. ++Lar: t/c 14:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for helping with the IP. The GoRight section that you should review was not the proposed unblock request, but rather the proposed unblock request in light of [11]Hipocrite (talk) 14:35, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've commented on the request (perhaps not exactly as you might have wished) but also I told GoRight that his peanut gallery stuff was not at all helpful. Because it's not. Everyone needs to be building bridges, and at least trying to work with the more reasonable folk on the "other side" or we won't get anywhere. ++Lar: t/c 15:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your attempt with UA was appreciated but next time perhaps also encourage him to go straight to an editor if he has a problem with them rather than post on a talk page they might not see. --BozMotalk 18:46, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I figured that an enforcement admin would most likely be watching the talkpage of that enforcement. And my comments "above the line" were being snowed under by other stuff, so I posted it there. It seemed (and seems) wholly appropriate that I did so. UnitAnode 19:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And, lest it be seen I'm crapping on everything, it appears that Nightmote, who I think is on the other "side" and I made substantial positive changes to the article. Hipocrite (talk) 20:04, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On filibusters
@Lar, you seem to take offense at something when I thought I was being matter of fact. Explain what and you win a free apology. --BozMotalk 18:46, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Lar trying to introduce KDP into this looks to me like some kind of filibuster", "But it was certainly you, Lar, who picked out KDP from that discussion and introduced KDP below the line into the uninvolved admin discussion of results. I am not that bothered by what is unquestionably process dysfunctionality, life is short and we have to be pragmatic but it seems strange of you to dispute what you clearly did from the edit history." ... Actually, the edit history shows that someone else (UnitAnode) introduced evidence of who was edit warring on that page. I reviewed that evidence, saw many more names than you brought forward, and thought that KDP needed adding too. I raised that, but you seemed to dig in. I'm not offended, no, but I'm not particularly impressed either. Using terms like "filibuster" is not really quite collegial. ++Lar: t/c 19:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Glad you are not offended but also surprised at your interpretation which seems a clear misreading of my comment. Equally therefore, sadly, not particularly impressed since my previous encounters of you had been positive. --BozMotalk 19:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly is it possible to misread "filibuster" as anything other than disparagement? Feel free to explain. Or apologise, as you offered. ++Lar: t/c 20:04, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I should do both: (1) My only knowledge of the word comes from Filibuster#United_Kingdom where it is not broadly disparaging but technical and tactical. People celebrate filibusters as essential for democracy, a triumph for democracy. In this instance my point was that you were forcing the debate wider than addressing the only issue actually raised. I had made it clear [12] that I was after a quick sanction for an offence on a narrow terrain and wanted comments from the floor only on whether the offence was correctly presented. Unitanode said involve KDP, Nutley said "no, he took it to talk unlike everyone else" etc etc but this was not within the question which I asked, and in strict terms those comments were out of order. I effectively asked the floor only whether I had those offences correct. Regardless of irrelevant comments we could have just nailed this quickly and moved on rather than using more time discussing the sanction than they spent discussing the page. But, clearly, by widening the debate to include not only KDP's edits on that page but (by the comment along the lines of if he is innocent it is only by luck) also including the rest of KDPs edits (which had been raised from the floor but procedurally you should have ignored) effectively you ensured that the origin motion for a quick and decisive rap on the knuckles for a clear offence could not proceed. Given my limited time frame, it meant the motion timed out on my available time. That, technically, is a filibuster, pretty much to a T. Now, I have not in all this said that it was a bad call. You have concerns about KDP which you want to deal with and bundling him into any nearby action may well be overall the best decision. But it was not the original issue or the original action. From my point of view (as the person who raised the issue) once we are not on a action for an issue I have to drop out, because I am very busy with Haiti and have no time to form a balanced judgement across probation space on who is being a bad person and who not. So I said, effectively, drop this motion, raise a more general one and deal with this as part of it. This motion has been filibusted. (2) I apologise if the term caused you offence because you took it as disparaging. It was intended to be technical. --BozMotalk 20:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this isn't a parliament, nor is it a democracy, so we don't do filibusters here. That's what caused my raised eyebrows. The motion now is set to proceed I think. (2) Apology accepted. ++Lar: t/c 21:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way doesn't [13] contradict [14] or did I misunderstand "I can't sign off" to mean something other than "we can't"? Really, this is no big deal I am sure I got the wrong end of the stick somewhere but I suspect it was understandable to some degree. --BozMotalk 21:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"I can't" != "We can't". It means I oppose the consensus, not that consensus can't be reached without my agreement. ++Lar: t/c 21:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Filibuster - "to impede legislation by irregular or obstructive tactics, esp. by making long speeches." Just thought I'd clarify for Bozmo just how pejorative his use of that word is when referring to another administrator. UnitAnode 20:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I look forward to your clarification when you get around to it. --BozMotalk 20:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you being intentionally obtuse, here? By definition, you claimed that Lar was willfully "impeding" the process by using "irregular or obstructive tactics, esp. by making long speeches." How is it even possible to not understand how pejorative that is? UnitAnode 21:16, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
<undent>And, good grief Bozmo, it wasn't "nearby action", he was directly involved in the current edit war problem. That was clear from the evidence page I drew up. That his name failed to appear in the thread title was a mere oversight, and I think you know it. UnitAnode 21:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've finally lost my temper
Fences&Windows accused me of being lazy in his support vote. I lost it a bit. I don't think I actually attacked F&W personally, but I went off more than a little bit. Where does he get off calling me lazy? UnitAnode 02:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just try to stay calm. I thought F&W was out of line there. But remember meatball:DefendEachOther... and try not to let people get to you. (it may be what they want) You're doing important work. As a note, though, if people ask you to slow down a bit because they can't keep up sourcing things, that's a reason to slow down... we want the articles fixed after all. Dunno if that helps. ++Lar: t/c 02:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, Lar. I haven't been working that quickly. And, not many of the people who have challenged me have actually been sourcing things. UnitAnode 02:40, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then don't worry about it. But on the other hand remember that you cannot solve this whole problem by yourself, and maybe the RfC will come up with a better process, with better automation. It might be worth waiting to see. ++Lar: t/c 02:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've actually been keeping to the 242 articles I initially worked on last week. I'm trying to clean up the ones which were deprodded, and sorting them for usability. That's what makes me so crazy about this whole thing. I'm not even adding any more articles to the supposed "workload." I think some people just like to gripe. UnitAnode 02:53, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nod. Maybe invite GWH over here, or to your talk page, to talk about it. He can be reasonable from time to time. ++Lar: t/c 02:56, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I posted about the 242 thing there, and I was (I think) quite under control in my response to his "strongly urge" commentary. UnitAnode 03:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am so frustrated right now that I don't trust myself to talk to GWH right now. Can you perhaps ask him what the hell he means by "there is a 19:17:1 consensus to topic ban"? For one thing, I don't think he understands what the word "consensus" means. It doesn't mean, 50%+1. But right now, I'm just completely frustrated with this whole fucking process. I've already made it clear that I'm not working outside of those 242 articles. I've also made it clear that if people let me know they plan on sourcing the articles within a VERY brief period of time (minutes or, at the MOST, hours) I won't remove the material again. I'm also willing to use the {{tl:BLP unsourced}}, as was suggested to me. That's as far as I'm willing to go. I'm out for the night anyway, and I don't even know how much time I'll have tomorrow, but would you try to rein in Gwh's strange view of what constitutes "consensus" at least? UnitAnode 04:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will talk to him, I think he misspoke. But go re read the AN/I thread. I think a compromise here is achievable, close even!!! Wikidemon just agreed to something very very important. PLEASE accept the olive branch and reciprocate, it's very crucial. ++Lar: t/c 04:36, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Lar barnstar
The Admin's Barnstar
for a talk page history of crisis resolution that would send normal mortal fleeing in terror! Montanabw(talk) 03:11, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Aw shucks. ++Lar: t/c 03:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I hereby award you a tiger! For patient, controlled strength applied to a task. Montanabw(talk) 03:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You don't know tigers very well do you? :) Now where can we find some fresh meat for this kitty? ++Lar: t/c 04:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"You want a pig," said Roger, "like in a real hunt."
"Or someone to pretend," said Jack. "You could get someone to dress up as a pig and then he could act — you know, pretend to knock me over and all that —"
"You want a real pig," said Robert, still caressing his rump, "because you've got to kill him."
"Use a littlun," said Jack, and everybody laughed.
04:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
File:Firm but fair.pngThe firm but fair award, for providing simple justice instead of grabbing the taser!
The award-designer presented the award criteria, not I, and the apparently relaxing tiger is a form of potential energy...but if you prefer:
Well, since tigers kill by strangulation, I think this is Montanabw's way of saying you take her(?) breath away. TheGoodLocust (talk) 08:08, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Um... I hope that's not it! ++Lar: t/c 14:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not MY breath snuffed! LOL! And grabbing prey by the throat kills by suffocation, not stragulation, actually. Grab by the throat and hang on until the prey stops kicking. THAT takes patience! (Immediate piercing of the jugular is far faster, but less opportunity for rectifying a mistake!) Montanabw(talk) 17:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLVII (January 2010)
The January 2010 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 04:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have sent you an email regarding the above. It's to your milton email account. SilkTork *YES! 17:34, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think things are percolating along. ++Lar: t/c 21:51, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would like the $5 argument, please
FYI. It really doesn't bother me, but I do understand why you make the comments. LessHeard vanU (talk) 02:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What? ++Lar: t/c 02:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Editors making comments about my suitability, as regards some of my (non)actions, comments, and percieved viewpoints. Part of the remit, I feel. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Who said anything about YOUR suitability? I'll go have stern words with them. ++Lar: t/c 01:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
re Admins Noticeboard/Climate Change
Hi. I would be grateful if you would run your eye over Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Climate Change#Initial conclusions, regarding a dispute over a section in the Climatic Research Unit hacking incident article. Can you see if there is any fault in my logic, and its application, or a misrepresentation of other editors actions or my understanding of policy? Although I would be grateful if you would note if you concur with my findings, at that page, I would understand if you didn't. I would also be grateful if you would note any dissent or disquiet in regard to my comments, again at that page. Cheers, LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I skimmed it. It's convoluted, isn't it. I suspect it will take some considerable thought. You know my attention wanders :) ++Lar: t/c 02:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, well, the information I originally requested is now starting to come to light once I posted my initial findings.... My logic is impeccable, I submit, except the newly available data may or may not deprecate it entirely or in part! ;~/ LessHeard vanU (talk) 02:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hipocrite makes a request for action
Lift assist
You wrote "PS, I do think mimicking a warning back to the editor who warned was unnecessarily snarky. An admonishment for that seems in order. ++Lar: t/c 18:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC) " The mimicking is still there. An apology has not arrived an admonishment has not happened? You want to know why I've hopped back in the bunker?
Because I got shat on and unprotected for trying to play fair, but an editor who has made zero attempt to comrpomise, but has an account since 2005 (though, of couse, his only edits are PoV pushing and BLP vandalism against people who don't like his policitcs) can make a copy-paste move of an article and then, as opposed to him getting smacked down HIS MOVE IS BEING TAKEN SERIOUSLYHipocrite (talk) 01:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That action isn't closed. I won't approve closure unless he's admonished. I'm just one voice. Yelling at me won't help, although it may make you feel better... Do you have a link for where the move is "being taken seriously" ? Ithought it had been pretty much roundly condemned. But I'm over voting on Meta and then I have to pack for my flight tomorrow... I may not get to this right away. ++Lar: t/c 01:57, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Lar, please see me comments [[15]] as to why I a feel an apology for my "snarky" warning is not appropriate. Just want to make sure you are seeing both sides of the issue. Sirwells (talk) 03:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Echoing back exactly what someone else says is almost always going to come across as snarky. It has whenever I've done it (hey, none of us is perfect), in the past. ++Lar: t/c 18:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A comment or two might be appropriate in re. SRQ and WHL
Hi, as you are aware of the tensions between these two may you have the time to bring more light than heat with what is going on? Maybe I errored in commenting back but I am pretty sure I know how Wildhartlivie is going to react to this. I find it to be needless poking to gain a negative response and said so. Would appreciate it if you could stop this in it's tracks before things get out of control again. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 17:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the comments here. I have to admit that I am my wits end with all of this. I don't like being talked down to like this. She has continued battle behavior and I personally don't like it. We cannot edit and enjoy it when an editor picks fights like this. I hope that you will finally be able to take some control here before more editors get upset by all of this. Thanks, sorry to bring this back to you because I know you are busy with other things but you are the only one I know of that knows the history of this, --CrohnieGalTalk 19:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Left an identical message at both their talks. We shall see. Because this needs to stop. I don't care who started it. ++Lar: t/c 22:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, I've been following these ongoing issues with SRQ for several months, and have had my own run-ins with her in the past. While I've kept out of the current saga, I have been watching. I'm concerned over this message, which SRQ left on the talk page of an IP editor with whom WHL is currently involved in a dispute.[16] I'll ask the obvious question: Why does SRQ need off-wiki communication, to share "pertinent information" regarding a user with whom both editors are in dispute? -FeralDruid (talk) 02:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're assuming much again, FD. If you want to know something about someone's motives, why would you ask a person who couldn't possibly know the answer? Why not ask the person whose motives you're questioning? --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 02:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then answer the question. -FeralDruid (talk) 02:52, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That should happen on my talk page, not someone else's, FD. If you want to ask there, feel free. Otherwise... --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 02:57, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SkagitRiverQueen
Excuse me all to hell, here, but this is out of hand and I have done nothing to warrant the above post. (Made to my talk page by you). It is far past time for something to be done about this person. Ever since my block, she has made snarky, hateful talk page posts. Last night, she pushed an issue on Talk:Charles Manson, where an edit she had made was grammatically incorrect and made no sense, and continued to revert my changes. She has camped out on that article and insists on the talk page that any issues with her edits be brought up there before changing them. If you will please look at what was going on, she kept reverting to a poorly phrased and ingrammatical sentence, insisting in the edit summaries nothing was wrong with what she'd written and then came to template me for WP:3RR. Just after that, another administrator stepped in, reverted her changes as "clean up" and she shut up. I removed the template she pushed it to, and noted WP:DTTR. Her first action was to post this to my talk page. Please note, up to that point, I had made no posts to her talk page and there was no valid reason for her to leave that hateful post to my talk page. I have not tried to engage this person, as your post to me stated, and what I did do was notify her to stop posting commentary and that further posts would be considered harassment and would be reported as such. I begged you to do something about her long ago, and you put me off until "later", which never came even after I wrote to you and asked "when" later would be. Her response was to posted the above in reponse to my notice to stop posting to me. I do not engage this woman. Other editors did notify you about her behavior, and if you will look at Crohnie, other editors have tried to defuse this with her. I begged you, Crohnie has begged you, I am simply sick and tired of this treatment from her and I fully expect administrators here to step in and stop her. Am I supposed to sit back and let her post such crap to my talk page, mistreat me and other editors, all in the name of "being honest"? Well, excuse me, but that is just so much rhetoric in the face of outright attacks such as she launches. I'm supposed to take this from her? What is the remedy besides getting posts such as yours when I have not engaged her beyond a notification that further posts would be treated as harassment. This is harassment and it was my understanding that administrators here are supposed to deal with this sort of behavior. The complaints I made to you before, the complaints that others have made to you, are not fabrications or our imagination. When will something be done about her treatment of other editors? I was under the impression that once someone served their blocks, it was supposed to done and over with. How is that possible under these circumstances? Does this have to go to ArbCom? Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:38, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
She's not to post to your talk page, you're not to post to hers. You're not to comment on her further, she's not to comment on you further. If I see it continueing, I'll take it to AN/I to get it formalized and if that fails then yes, ArbCom is a very real possibility. This is a big wiki. Find something else to do, ok? "She started it" won't fly with me. ++Lar: t/c 22:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, I dare say you're keeping an eye on the situation, but I have to comment on this. Two days after telling both editors that they need to disengage and that Wikipedia is a big place, comes this edit by SkagitRiverQueen at Kate Winslet, which is an article Wildhartlivie recently nominated for WP:GA and of which she is the main contributor. It's only one edit, but every other conflict between these editors has started with one edit. I may be missing something in the article history, but I can't see that SRQ has edited this article before, and the sudden switch from serial killers to an article that WHL clearly holds dear, looks to me like an attempt to provoke a reaction from WHL. Even assuming the best of good faith, it's not in the spirit of "disengage". There are plenty of editors who can fix anything that needs fixing at Kate Winslet and over a million articles that SRQ could work on. Why suddenly this one? I know anyone can edit any article, but given the recent discussions and warnings, there must be a corner of Wikipedia that WHL can work in, without being followed. This is beyond ridiculous. Rossrs (talk) 22:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A response on this is needed. The editor in question has never edited that article before and insinuated herself in an editing question between another editor and myself, then posted a comment to the talk page. Rossrs and I recently took this through GA, which passed. I'm not permitted to respond to her. So now what? Followed to a new article, stuck herself in where it could conceivably call for a response to her post. How is one supposed to deal with this? How is one supposed to accept this? The issue was sorted between the other editor and myself, there was no need for a "reworked awkward syntax" edit nor a talk page post regarding it. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict - I assumed WHL had seen the edits, and I assumed correctly). Also this edit at Talk:Kate Winslet, in which SRQ steps in uninvited to a discussion between WHL and another editor and offers them a compromise. I don't seriously believe SRQ is remotely interested in helping WHL, and at this point SRQ should be the last editor offering unsolicited advice to WHL. I assume WHL has seen this, and although she hasn't asked me to say anything for her, by meatball:DefendEachOther, she can't really say anything herself. I'm concerned that if she's baited, and takes the bait, and says too much, it will be WHL who ends up in hot water and I'd like to see that not happen. Rossrs (talk) 04:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can find no substantiation that Abie asked anyone a week ago what to do about the Kate Winslet article, nor find a reason why he would have asked, he was involved in discussion with Rossrs about something on that page. In email discussion with Abie, he did not mention discussion with anyone else, nor indicate any interaction on that level, although our discussion was about the edit made by SkagitRiverQueen to the Winslet article. I have sent him an email asking him this question specifically. I've been editing at the Manson page since November 2007, where SkagitRiverQueen followed me after a dispute at the Ted Bundy article in January 2010, as she did several others where she had not previously edited, and posting to that talk page is something I've done all along. Wikistalking my edits has been a long time complaint that I have had and has been the subject of discussion before. Please see here for a complaint about wikistalking that I began to compile soon after her first appearance at the Charles Manson article. My comment on the Manson talk page did not require a response, although it appeared to me that a veiled sock accusation was made about a new editor, which I questioned. I didn't say "SkagitRiverQueen, that sounds like a sock accusation. My comment was that the editor about whom it could conceivably sound wouldn't have posted that way. In any case, it was biting the newbie, who so far hasn't returned, not an invitation for discussion. The edits made at Kate Winslet were a direct result of a question in which I was involved. "Intervening" in a situation in which I was directly involved, where no edits had ever previously been made, is a direct actionWildhartlivie (talk) 23:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Topic ban?
I've seen ChrisO (talk·contribs) being quite rude in many discussions. It looks like he and his friends can do what they want without any reactions at all. In the same page a lot of his opponents get topic banned for less dire comments than that (ex). Nsaa (talk) 09:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you post a self-published book by a couple of non-notable individuals, you can hardly complain when someone points out that it's a junk source. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's your form that is bad, not what you are making arguments. Why not just say that this is a self published (?) book, published by persons non notable and therefore is not relevant? Others seems to be topiuc banned for less than this. That was my question. Nsaa (talk) 09:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused...
Exactly what do you want me to comment on? --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 21:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please carefully read "A comment or two might be appropriate" (3 sections up) and especially "SkagitRiverQueen" (2 sections up) and comment. You have been told not to interact with WHL. It is alleged that you persist in doing so, and further, that you have been engaging WHL in areas where you previously were not active. What is your response to this? Please be specific. ++Lar: t/c 22:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Why were you at Charles Manson in the first place, though? That seems puzzling. ++Lar: t/c 02:13, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why it should be puzzling to you - I've been editing that article for a while. What's more, I've been editing crime articles in general for a while - the Manson article is just one in a list of several. I'm also on the Serial Killer Task Force and WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography task force, so... The article that brought WHL and I "together" (so to speak) was Ted Bundy - and I've been editing that article since 2006. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 02:16, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Image movement to Commons and requests not to delete local copies
Hi, I can't really chose whether or not to honor keeping the superfluous local duplicate since I'm not an admin, I can only mark images, so I'm not sure what you mean. I find the rationale for keeping in this case extremely unconvincing though. What does "YMMV" mean? Regards Hekerui (talk) 16:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
YMMV == "Your mileage may vary" ... hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 16:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
LOL! There's no "trouble a-brewin'" at all. An editor chose to be nasty rather than civil, and I called him on it. That's all there is to it. As I stated at the Behan talk page, until there's a change in his attitude, I'm done with any discussion with him there. Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 05:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wildhartlivie and SkagitRiverQueen part deux
Hi Lar, I've been asked to ask you to clarify some points regarding contact between these editors, per meatball:DefendEachOther. The only way I can think to clarify, is to ask you a few questions.
1. If one editor posts a comment at an article talk page, is the other editor permitted to respond in that discussion?
2. If yes - if the response is a neutral comment in reply to another person who comments, but not directly to the other "party" is that ok?
3. What if editor A disagrees with editor B, but instead of disagreeing directly, she posts her disagreement in reply to a comment made by a third editor? Could that be interpreted as a way of getting around the issue of not directly communicating, knowing full well that editor B will not fail to read the comment? If so, is this in violation of the specific instructions you gave to both editors?
4. How do the editors deal with an article that is of interest to both of them? Is it a case of who gets there first in a particular discussion? Or who has been editing the article for the longest or most consistently?
Example: Talk:John Wayne Gacy. User:Wildhartlivie started a discussion with this edit. User:SkagitRiverQueen commented in opposition with this edit which addresses the question originally posed by SRQ, and it is quite neutral in presenting an opinion without referencing WHL, but it is posted after this comment by User:Chowbok. Chowbok's comment is completely out of line and completely off-topic, and it's not necessarily the most logical edit to receive SRQ's comment. Could it be construed that by placing the comment after a comment that attacks WHL, there is some kind of "ganging up" taking place? There is no reason for Wildhartlivie to reply to SRQ because SRQ has done no more indicate a style preference. Is the way she's done it acceptable? If there was something that warranted a reply is it correct to say that WHL is not permitted to do that, and if so how would she deal with it? She's already got one editor (Chowbok) accusing her of canvassing, and yet there doesn't seem to be any way for her to respond to SRQ except through another editor. It would probably be helpful if these points could be clarified, as there are certain articles that both editors edit. Thank you for the time you've already spent in looking at this issue. Rossrs (talk) 17:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I really just would like these two to stay away from each other as much as possible. I didn't want to have to craft rules about who could say what where first. I'd say maybe they should divide up their areas of interest and until they can show they can get along, stay completely off talk pages or articles the other one has more contributons on. (who has been editing the longest or most consistently... or who gets there first).
If this can't be made to work, then I will just give it up as a bad idea, I guess. As for the thread on John Wayne Gacy you showed me, I must say WHL seems a bit combative in that thread. It's not what I'd hope to see from an editor who wants to be collegial. ++Lar: t/c 23:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can see why you would think staying away from one another completely would be some sort of a solution, Lar. The problem with that solution is that WHL probably has hundreds of (if not more than a thousand) articles on her watchlist. I have a little more than 200. With that many articles on her watchlist, it's a very strong bet that she and I will end up at the same articles time and time again. My interests are not so much with celebrities as her are, but I do have some celebrities on my watchlist. I have a number of crime- and criminal-related articles on my watchlist; so does she (although on her talk page she states she has "retired" from editing crime-related articles). I don't think it's fair that I stop editing the articles on my watchlist that she also edits since my list is much smaller than hers. And, to be frank, asking me to do so seems almost as if you, as an administrator, are allowing her to take articles I may want to edit - and in a sense, any Wikipedia article on her watch list - hostage. That, to me, is not fair - especially since I'm not having any trouble dealing with her at all of late, and have moved on and away from dealing with her directly. If you look at WHL's sandbox, however, you can see that she has not moved on at all and continues to harbor anger/resentment/ill-feelings/whatever toward me by keeping a record of perceived wrongs with a "serious injury list". I'm not quite sure why she is compiling this "list", nor what she plans to do with it, but it does worry me somewhat that she has obviously not been able to let go of things - especially since she has already harassed me by email (which I could have made a much bigger stink about here in WP and with her ISP, and didn't, BTW).
Anyway, that's my .02 cents worth on the subject. The long and short of it being that if I see her working on an article that I already have on my watchlist or maybe would like to edit, I'm not going to allow myself to be dissuaded from editing just because she is there and/or was there first. That's not how Wikipedia works - and it should never be allowed to work that way. If it ever does, then the bullies have won and the rest of us poor schlubs will just have to take it? Nuh-uh. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 01:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That sandbox page is a problem and I've notified WHL. Incidentally, how did you happen to come across it, SRQ? I'd also be interested to know how you happened to end up at Katherine Hepburn ([17]). Equazcion(talk) 01:17, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)
SRQ and WHL: The problem is that you're both behaving badly. Each of you brings tales about the other's misbehavior here, and you're both correct at least some of the time. (I expect this is going to get a response from both ouf you saying that it's unfair of me to say that you are behaving badly, or that the other one is worse, or what have you) If you cannot figure out how to get along without micromanagement, then I guess I should just give up this idea as a bad job and let more conventional methods be used. Because I'm not your mom. I tried, but it wasn't going to work I guess. Either make honest proposals to each other on how to get along, or I give up. ++Lar: t/c 05:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The way I see this is that you laid down specific parameters about behavior toward each other. Questions were brought to you in regard to whether or not specific instances violated the restrictions you laid down, since you clearly said "If I see it continueing, I'll take it to AN/I to get it formalized." Asking whether certain actions violate that should be expected in some cases and if you decide the posts violate your conditions, it be taken to AN/I and it become more formal. SRQ stating she hasn't had any trouble dealing with me at all is testimony to the fact that I have studiously avoided interacting with her, even when she commented in threads I started or were involved in. On the other hand, two instances of where SRQ has popped up where she had not been previous to conflict between us were presented for comment. One was the Kate Winslet article, which I had just taken through GA nomination, and which she claimed the other editor asked her for advice, and then changed that statement to claim that he emailed her. I would note, regarding that, that the email user page clearly says "A private log of this action will be retained for the purpose of preventing abuse, and can be viewed by certain privileged users. This log does not identify the recipient, title, or contents of the e-mail. In cases of serious abuse, Wikimedia server administrators can verify the recipient account." In other words, whether or not Abie emailed SRQ is possibly obtainable and verifiable. The other, in which my conduct was characterized as "a bit combative" was the second time this issue had been addressed on John Wayne Gacy within a month which was a violation of WP:CITE and in my view, was rightly addressed. The other editor involved was reported to WP:WQA for comments made on that article and another and on talk pages. Personally, I think there is a clear difference between being "a bit combative" and being firm and clear in reasoning. That editor's snarky, aggressive behavior continues to be a problem. Basically, on both of those articles, the specific questions were about SRQ posting comments in threads that were either started by me or were ongoing issue that were being sorted out that included me. My question regarding the Gacy talk page was specifically that SRQ made statements with which I completely disagree and are unsupported and asked if it was a violation to address those points. I did not forge ahead to comment without clarification.
As for my watchlist, I do not have "probably [...] hundreds of (if not more than a thousand) articles" on the list. My watchlist has 503 pages on it. 357 articles of them are articles, 274 of which are actor/film/filmmaking/awards articles. The others fall in a variety of categories, including 70 articles that are related to the crime project and all of which are listed on my userpage as most frequently edited articles. When one watches 70 crime articles and notes that a specific editor has suddenly popped up for the first time on close to 30% of them since a given dispute that resulted in a restriction on interaction, one tends to notice. 90 are userpages, including 32 IPs that were templated for vandalism, 32 are Wikipedia project, etc. pages, 14 image pages, 8 template pages and 2 category pages. Based on a belief that a statement made by you here that "ArbCom is a very real possibility" was a real possibility, I am not aware of a restriction upon one beginning to compile evidence for a potential ArbCom filing, about which I have already had discussion with various individuals involved. Whether I can't let it go or not is debatable. That I keep seeing a certain user popping up where she had not previously gone before isn't just a play on the Star Trek intro, it keeps the issue highlighted, even if that editor has taken on new and fresh areas of combat. Topic bans and restrictions most certainly do apply as to what articles an editor is allowed to edit, which often are the outcomes of ArbCom and AN/I sanctions and even administrator decision.
I am concerned about one comment she made, though, that is quite disingenuous: "especially since she has already harassed me by email (which I could have made a much bigger stink about here in WP and with her ISP, and didn't, BTW)." That is a factual lie. I have been given information wherein she did directly contact an ISP about direct email, as I understand that has nothing to do with here or the user email system here, to which she replied and made legal threats. At this point, because of SRQ's continued comments regarding that, I will note that in the discussion between you and I was that I reserve the right to submit evidence at a future date that LaVidaLoca and I are not the same person and am I working on changing her mind about "outing" herself. SRQ's continued dragging that up and requesting that editors with whom I disagree contact her via email fosters no air of collegiality. And as I said to someone else, I served my block time, I do not expect it to be made a factor in every discussion in which I disagree with an action.
I'm truly sorry that you are tired of this, but then so am I. The questions raised here were not to tattle to mom, but instead to attempt to clarify your restrictions. If that is annoying, I apologize. They were asked in the interest of elucidating the situation and deterimining whether postings crossed the boundaries you set. It also isn't to whine "it's not fair". Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 10:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Time for me to address a few things from above:
SRQ stating she hasn't had any trouble dealing with me at all is testimony to the fact that I have studiously avoided interacting with her, even when she commented in threads I started or were involved in. Actually, it's a testimony to both of us avoiding interacting with one another. This hasn't been a one-sided effort.
she claimed the other editor asked her for advice, and then changed that statement to claim that he emailed her. I changed it? No, I clarified so there would be no later accusation of obfuscation or lying. And, in fact, the other editor *did* ask me for advice.
I would note, regarding that, that the email user page clearly says "A private log of this action will be retained for the purpose of preventing abuse, and can be viewed by certain privileged users. This log does not identify the recipient, title, or contents of the e-mail. In cases of serious abuse, Wikimedia server administrators can verify the recipient account." In other words, whether or not Abie emailed SRQ is possibly obtainable and verifiable. Yeah...and? I have never lied in Wikipedia. I didn't then, I'm not now, I never will. If necessary, verify away, Lar. You'll find a record of the email exchange between Abie and I. You see, I have nothing to hide.
As for my watchlist, I do not have "probably [...] hundreds of (if not more than a thousand) articles" on the list. My watchlist has 503 pages on it. 357 articles of them are articles, 274 of which are actor/film/filmmaking/awards articles. The others fall in a variety of categories My estimation was merely a guess based on the number of articles she works on in a week's time. I'd like to add that one of the things she obviously has on her watchlist is my talk page. Yet, she continues to complain that I am stalking her. Go figure.
I am concerned about one comment she made, though, that is quite disingenuous: "especially since she has already harassed me by email (which I could have made a much bigger stink about here in WP and with her ISP, and didn't, BTW)." That is a factual lie. It is? How is that a "factual lie"? I could have made a much bigger stink with her ISP - but didn't. I made one report to her ISP. I could have taken it further than that. I had every right (and actually every reason) to do so. I didn't. I could have made a stink with WP about her harassing me by email as well. I didn't. So...please tell me - exactly *what* did I lie about? If you can come up with nothing, here - you owe me an apology - and for more than just the accusation of lying, actually. I'm also owed an apology for the harassing emails you sent (which I was going to let go of until reading this latest accusation).
I have been given information wherein she did directly contact an ISP about direct email Really? And what "information" is that? That I contacted your ISP? Yep - as I said above - I sure did. And had every right to do it, too. Email harassment is not only a TOS violation, but it's illegal.
as I understand that has nothing to do with here or the user email system here, to which she replied and made legal threats. Uh...what??? Clarification, please.
Lar, as we have discussed, I am in process of working on getting cooperation to submit proof to you that LaVidaLoca and I are not the same person and I am quite tired of being told about posts being made around that both directly accuse me of being a user named SkagRiverKing and speculation about that. You have clearly stated on more than one occasion that you found no connection and it's extremely tiresome to see comments that suggest that. Please see this post which followed the issue you addressed here after that exchange, which was the third time that your admonition to desist replying to or about me or it would be taken to AN/I for further action has been violated. So I continue to maintain that I am not the same person and no apology from me will be forthcoming. The report I was given from the ISP, which also was forwarded to LaVidaLoca was a complaint but there is no process for a "bigger stink" and produced a request to desist in emailing that account and mentioned no sanctions which are suggested here. And yes, a legal threat was made in response to an email which said " If you attempt this form of harassment (or any other form of harassment) again, the next communication you get on my behalf will come to you via our lawyer. I guarantee you will not like what happens after that." I will be glad to forward to you the copy of that email I was sent. As for watchlisting talk pages, tit for tat. Why would someone be aware of how many articles I work on in a week's time anyway? Tired of this, extremely. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I made that post on the anon's page, not SRQ.—Chowbok☠ 05:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am fascinated that WHL is still maintaining she was not using sock-puppets. And while she doesn't completely deny having sent me anonymous, private emails, she seems to be saying that "LaVidaLoca" actually sent them. The content of the email she quotes was, indeed, sent by me to the anonymous email harasser. I have no reason to deny it and there certainly is nothing wrong with what I wrote. I don't know if it is okay, however, for her to reveal what was in a personal email apart from WP here without my permission, though (isn't that kind of thing covered in a policy somewhere in WP?) But, back to the email - if you recall Lar, I forwarded that email (along with all of the others including the email headers) to you. So, that reply from me to WHL/the anonymous email harasser is no secret, nor is it anything I would, or have attempted to, deny. Now, maybe someone can answer this for me: if WHL *isn't* the anonymous person who harassed me both by email and here in WP on my talk page, how does she know what I wrote *back* to the email harasser? How, exactly, did she come across the exact email I sent to that harasser when the only others who had copies of the emails were you and another WP administrator (and the ArbCom people the emails were forwarded to for investigation)? --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 06:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Be fascinated all you want, when I convince her to "out" herself and the identification is submitted, it will support that I am not the same person as LaVidaLoca, which has been widely acknowledged by multiple editors that they have communicated with her individually and know she isn't the same person. I stated you made legal threats, you challenged that and the content was given as proof. Plus if you sent copies around, you apparently have no compunction about revealing it. No great secret about the emails, LaVidaLoca sent them to me after I insisted. Wow, great mystery there. She screwed up, yes, but I didn't write them and as for denial, well, other people consistently deny they did anything to warrant blocks, now don't they? Wildhartlivie (talk) 07:44, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WHL stated a few days ago, "I don't particularly think any dialogue between her and I would be productive". I guess she was right: "dialogue" (although, the above is really a monologue since I wasn't talking to her, but to you) would be unproductive, as the snide remarks from her above prove. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 08:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not so much annoyed as I am frustrated, I guess. Let me take another look at the questions, ok? As for your block, I agree, you served your time, and we privately got to a resolution that met the stuff we outlined. It may not have been the one I personally would like to have seen but it was acceptable, and raising that block over and over isn't helpful. So I agree with you in part. But I think the question about why you're keeping a sandbox is a valid one... the explanation that you're archiving material because you may want to raise the matter later is fine, but why not keep it offline. Or make it much more dispassionate. Just list the diffs and a dry analysis. The way it reads now isn't that friendly. Anyway, let me try to provide guidance, if you wish it. I just had the sense you didn't. ++Lar: t/c 14:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I share your frustration and speaking for a few others, they do too. To be honest, the block outcome wasn't the one I would have chosen either, but the one I think you wanted and so did I takes cooperation, which I wasn't getting from the other party, to achieve the outcome I would have liked. As I said, I'm working on that. The sandbox content was started last month before the block issue arose, and was at that time slated for a RfC/U that would have been filed about the same time as the block. Since the first week of February, another thought has come to mind with issues that have arisen and examples I've seen. I told Equazcion I would gladly blank the paragraph part, but the rest is simply a list of articles and dates and I didn't see why that was objectionable. The way I see the current issue is that you laid down some clear lines about what can and can't be done, and some situations have arisen that don't fall within those lines, so yes, I think for my part, I need some clarification about those situations. Thank you. Wildhartlivie (talk) 15:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it wasn't helpful. I said so there. By the way, if you guys want to try to work out your differences here, please feel free... just try to keep it confined to just here. Would that be helpful? If not never mind. ++Lar: t/c 00:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you and thank you for the offer. I am sending you an email. I don't particularly think any dialogue between her and I would be productive and I just want her to not talk about me or stalk my edits. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
DYK for Margaretta Faugères
On February 15, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Margaretta Faugères, which you recently nominated. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
I can't actually find a link to the deleted page, but at one time I worked on an article about the Romanian actor, Radu Amzulescu who was featured in the film Citizen X. Now it's gone and I was about to expand it. If it is lurking in the background somewhere, could I get it userified? Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I'm happy to userify things (if somewhat slow at actually doing it, see the big list I have waiting for me above... :) ) on request. However, after a brief look I can't find it under that name either. Many Romanian names have diareetics or other non standard letters in them (áĕò etc.)... is it possible this name has some of those and that's why the unaccented name isn't coming up? Another way to find it is in your own contribs (perhaps in deleted contribs which you need an admin like me to check)... can you narrow down when it was? That would make digging a bit easier. I will look harder later. ++Lar: t/c 11:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wondered about that but hadn't come across a spelling like that. It's listed without marks in the film article. I'll take a look around and see if I can't find it. It's been a year or more since I worked on it. If I can't find something, I'll let you know, one way or another. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 12:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for letting me know, I would have probably missed that if you hadn't pinged me, much appreciated. Seems a good idea to me, said so. However will it be well received? One can hope but I'm not hopeful. ++Lar: t/c 13:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I think User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier is Drew; my first suspicion was that it was John254. See User talk:Tbsdy lives#My Userpage first, then my talk page and Red Hood's talk; the ANIs are at: wp:ani#Disruptive signature && wp:ani#user talk:Jack Merridew. The other aspect is that Grawp and the /b/tard crowd dipped into the drama for lulz by attacking both user talk pages. It should sort soon and I've let some others know: tbsdy, Durova, and Jonathan, so this is just an fyi a you were involved last summer. Cheers, Jack Merridew 20:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can check to see if I have anything, but I won't run any new CUs for investigative purposes while I'm on the Ombudsman Commission. ++Lar: t/c 00:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If Lar cannot help, try the CU mailing list. LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can't do that; it's closed (been there, got the NAK-receipt in my inbox). Cheers, Jack Merridew 01:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I understand that; if you've logs, share them with the CU-list — whatever the usual procedure is. Cheers, Jack Merridew 01:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So... no action item for me then? ++Lar: t/c 03:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I expect there to be some formal ban discussion in the next 24h. He's also said he's done with this new account, so I expect both to be indef'd and for him to sock a few times down the road. Durova found all sort of image issues with the Drew account since the events of last August; it's on her talk. Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I read that a couple of times and my head's still spinning. I'm not sure what the argument is about exactly. ++Lar: t/c 00:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why contributors leave, a survey of former contributors
Hi. I went to a birthday party for LaVidaLoca's grandson this evening and after a discussion between us, she has agreed to come over tomorrow to scan her driver's license to submit to you to prove she is who we said she was. She will send it to you with a mea culpa after we scan it. I'll send you a copy of my state identification card (I can't drive due to vision disabilities) from my email account. Is that satisfactory to you? Wildhartlivie (talk) 06:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would be very satisfactory indeed. The information will of course be kept strictly private to me. ++Lar: t/c 14:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A tl;dr (??) about "Adding just one word"
Hello, Lar, I have very little experience in Wikipedia, but I'm hoping you can advise me on how to start a "sockpuppet hearing" so I can defend myself against Wildhartlivie. I'm not trying to make a personal attack on her. I'm pointing out an irrationality in her reaction to my adding one word to the Dorothy Kilgallen article. It's a very necessary word: officially. It belongs in the section "Kilgallen and the Kennedy assassination." Without it, the article says Kilgallen made something available to readers of the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Seattle Post Intelligencer and other newspapers in August 1964 (see footnotes #26 and 27), but that something "didn't become available to the public until the [Warren] commission released its 26 volumes in early 1965."
So, how can something be available to the public in 1964 but not available to the public until 1965? The article should say the portion of the Warren Commission report in question "didn't become officially available to the public until ... early 1965." In August 1964 Kilgallen made it available without the official stamp of approval from the government. I already brought this up on the talk page for Dorothy Kilgallen, and Wildhartlivie made a reply that dumbs down the issue to the issue of sockpuppets. If she thinks I'm causing trouble, I'm going to defend myself. Please check my history of contributions. I'm not a conspiracy theorist or a Kilgallen obsessive. I've contributed to Wikipedia articles on the Great Horned Owl, the hygrometer, Mark Geragos and the metaphysical poet John Donne. I use a computer at a college campus at a small town in California, and I should not be held responsible for postings made by other students over a long period of time. Because Wildhartlivie has contributed to this very page, I'm prepared for her to repeat her comment about "Dooyar," and I'm just going to defend myself.
The issue is an American government document being both available and not available to the American public in 1964. If somebody questions my integrity as a newbie Wikipedia editor, that belongs in a sockpuppet hearing, not with the Kilgallen issue. There is no hurry, Lar. Would one possible solution be for you to add that single word to "Kilgallen and the Kennedy assassination?" Maybe that would hurt fewer feelings of fewer people. I'm not making a personal attack on anyone. Quite the contrary, I'm suggesting how to proceed without any personal attacks. I'm looking forward to a reply from Lar whenever it is convenient -- Monday, Thursday, whenever. Earththings (talk) 21:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, please see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Nyannrunning and these sock accounts of that editor, who has shown an interest in relatively obscure articles that are tangentially related in one way or another to the JFK assassination conspiracy theories and articles related to What's My Line?:
He also posted from the following IPs, many of which are connected to library connections in the greater Los Angeles area, including UCLA library, the Los Angeles public library and various satellite branches and the airport. How interesting that he would think to mention that aspect here too:
67.203.140.101
69.234.176.245
69.234.189.198
76.172.164.214
76.93.74.76
76.93.87.176
76.81.203.13
76.81.204.238
76.81.222.92
164.67.44.73
209.78.98.26
206.170.104.51
206.170.104.66
216.117.194.3
Please note the use of the term "user-driven website" which he frequently uses and was picked up from a dispute mediation case involving him as Dooyar and Pinkadelica and me and the use of citations to pages posted by John McAdams. He also tends to refer to articles as "our article" and uses the pronoun "we". Also citing WP:DUCK, when a person has interacted with this sock master long enough, one recognizes his writing style, even when he attempts to disguise it. His post to Talk:Laraine Newman used a familiar style of address: "Hello. How do people feel about adding..." His post to Talk:Corey Haim references a book by Julia Phillips that he's used before as other accounts and engages in the same sort of tangentialness that his earlier talk page posts had. After a year or so, administrators started blocking new accounts from this editor based on these similarities and basically, WP:DUCK sort of observations. Add to that his obvious knowledge of sock puppet issues and mentioning previous issues from the socks that mentioned issues abou "conspiracy theorist or a Kilgallen obsessive". The content addition was reverted as contributions by a banned user. If necessary, a new SPI can be launched, but as time goes on, preparing one of those and exploring the posts from associated accounts becomes repressive. Just sayin'. Not to mention that the previous addition of "officially" and the rationale for it is totally unsupported or referenced. Not to mention this editor has attempted to stir the fires by cross-posting a very similar post to SRQ's talk page [18]. That's also a familiar pattern that would not be common knowledge to an editor with little experience in Wikipedia, now would it? Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it wouldn't be common knowledge to me. The fact that I'm new to Wikipedia means I'm not smart enough to read the words "sock puppet issues," understand the meaning of "obsessive" or to know what a conspiracy theorist is. I'm also a tangential weirdo for using the word "hello" when I made the very first (and so far only) contribution to the talk page for a particular actress who is in her late 50's. I'm one of very few people who has read the book Driving Under the Affluence by Julia Phillips and who knows that it references many obscure actors. Surely, my spending five seconds cutting and pasting a message so two editors can read it warrants suspicion that I'm "stirring the fires." It never occurred to me that cutting and pasting causes a "very similar post" to appear in a second place!
Sarcasm aside, there is an excellent reference for Jack Ruby's testimony to the Warren Commission becoming "officially" available to the American people in early 1965: the Warren Commission report. If, according to Wildhartlivie, the "rationale" for adding the word officially to the Kilgallen article is "totally unsupported or referenced," then so are the other assertions about Kilgallen and the assassination that the article contains. For example, John McAdams' web site, which another editor has tagged as an "unreliable source," doesn't say two FBI agents visited her house to ask her who had given her the Ruby testimony. You can read the entire web site online. Lee Israel's biography says they did, and so do documents listed under "Dorothy Kilgallen" at the National Archives in Maryland. Want the page number for the Israel citation? Of course, the Archives documents don't qualify as Wikipedia sources, but the Israel book has been used in many other footnotes within the Kilgallen article.
As for my IP address, I reiterate that I use a computer belonging to my university campus in a small town in California. It isn't near Los Angeles, nor should every student and professor be held responsible for the behavior of other people in 2006 or 2007.
Finally, I'd like to request that Lar help start a new SPI even though it could become "repressive." I've dealt with repressive ordeals before. In my life and job history, I mean. I may be new to Wikipedia, but I have been living my life for a long time. As such, I know the difference between a professional disagreement and a personal attack, and nothing I have written constitutes a personal attack. Maybe claims that I'm stupid could be considered personal attacks, but I shall let them go for now. Earththings (talk) 01:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No one called you stupid, and if you looked closely enough, you'd realize you cross-posted to an editor who by restriction cannot comment on your talk page post or on me, that is fanning the flames. Wonder why you picked that one? Sock puppet investigations are not fishing expeditions, so no, no one is going to start one at your request. As for the Lee Israel book, you spent a lot of time denigrating her work on another article, and this is yet another example of tangential commentary that you are prone to posting. Why would you single out someone "else's" behavior in 2006 or 2007 unless you know to what is being referred? Comparative evidence was actually posted on this page and Lar is a checkuser and a person who makes determinations at SPI. Don't obscure the facts presented here with tangential commentary. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was difficult to tell whether you were being sarcastic when you listed several points that wouldn't be common knowledge to a newbie. It did seem to imply I'm stupid, but I'm going to let personal attacks slide until a SPI starts. I didn't investigate the restrictions that have been imposed on SagitRiverQueen, and I consider whatever they are to be none of my business and irrelevant to the Dorothy Kilgallen article. I picked "that one" because I noticed SagitRiverQueen (him? her?) listed in other exchanges on Lar's talk page, and I didn't have time to investigate how many other editors identified here would be receptive to a SPI. Rather than assume that "no one is going to start one at [my] request," I'm going to visit here whenever I have a chance until this thing gets settled. Wildhartlivie has twisted what I've said. I never claimed to know how others at my university campus behaved in 2006 or 2007. I referred to that after Wildhartlivie cited a whole bunch of IP addresses that presumably include the one at my university campus, where many thousands of people have come and gone since 2006. If anyone still thinks I'm being tangential, then here is my message to Lar: Please introduce an unbiased third party to this matter, and please allow me to vacate my computer temporarily should that become necessary. Thank you, Lar. Earththings (talk) 02:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd actually suggest you let personal attacks slide altogether, especially since that can lead to blocks, especially for users who have been blocked for personal attacks before. You kee mentioning that. Since I've presented comparative evidence to Lar already, he may make a decision based on what is already presented here. No idea what vacating your computer means or is about. If you've got to leave the computer, you've got to leave the computer. Continuing to argue back isn't going to advance your position much and I'd suggest that continuing to type only creates more prose to compare writing styles. I'm still lost as to why 2006 is so important here, unless it's a reference to how far back involvement goes in regard to one account or another. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:52, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I planned to communicate via email about this. I have received your material but I think you have overstated matters in this edit. It is at the very least premature to state that "Evidence was submitted to Lar today that clearly proves to his satisfaction that I am not LaVidaLoca and she is not me."... you may feel that will be the ultimate outcome, you may feel it's proven to YOUR satisfaction, but I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth, because I've made no such statement. Further I think even though the MfD is closed, you should strike that particular wording. Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 04:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added the word "should". BTW, these two responses don't go in this section. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's a satisfactory change, it's not sweeping enough. Further, I'm not sure what you mean about sections. ++Lar: t/c 17:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment "After a year or so, administrators started blocking new accounts ..." is what inspired me to throw out the years 2006 and 2007 as possible milestones in the "sockpuppet history" of this person you seem to have investigated extensively. If Lar has made a decision without posting anything to where I can read it, then I admit there's a lot about Wikipedia I have yet to learn. I assume you can read my talk page where SkagitRiverQueen has spoken for himself/herself. I apologize if contacting him/her (out of maybe six or seven editors I can find) seemed sinister. Now that SkagitRiverQueen has backed out of helping, I won't be bothering him/her anymore. If personal attacks can lead to blocks, then my conscience is clear.
And Wildhartlivie is still ignoring Dorothy Kilgallen. The entire section about her and the Kennedy assassination is shaky as long as nobody reads the "unreliable" online source it cites many times. If you're going to leave the section as is, please consider that if something became available in several newspapers in 1964, then it was available prior to 1965, even though it wasn't officially available until 1965, and even that is an error. There are many, many published sources on "November 1964" being the time when the U.S. government released all 26 Warren volumes to the public, such as this one.
but the Kilgallen article says the 26 volumes became available in "early 1965." One need not be a conspiracy theorist to present these sources to an editor here. Maybe the article can say Kilgallen made the testimony available in August 1964 even though the Warren Commission didn't release it officially until three months later. Earththings (talk) 03:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you succinctly summarise what it is you are asking be done, and why? ++Lar: t/c 17:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A mischaracterization of what Lar said?
(moved from heading) " "Evidence was submitted to Lar today that clearly proves to his satisfaction that I am not LaVidaLoca and she is not me."
See here. Is that true? (That it proves it to your satisfaction, that is, not that it was submitted.)—Chowbok☠ 22:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have received evidence. I am evaluating it. I will not be making a statement about it one way or the other until I have completed that evaluation. ++Lar: t/c 03:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, good to have stark evidence that WHL out-and-out lies when it suits her purposes to do so, although with the charmed life she leads here probably nobody will care.—Chowbok☠ 03:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And my point is proven once again. Have you asked WHL to AGF, ever? If not, is this because you really believe she always does?—Chowbok☠ 03:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You asked me for advice in a recent email. I gave you some. Did you read it? If you did, and if you understood it, why would you say "Okay, good to have stark evidence that WHL out-and-out lies" in response to my statement that I have received evidence and am evaluating it? How exactly is that helpful? ++Lar: t/c 03:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure it isn't, but I am frustrated at the pattern here. To put it in a less contentious way, WHL, for whatever reason, made an argument that was simply not true. Nobody seems to care. My pointing it out is much more objectionable, apparently.—Chowbok☠ 04:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I had not noticed when I wrote this that Lar did object to WHL's comment, above. So I do want to note that, to be fair.—Chowbok☠ 04:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My very first encounter with WHL was not pleasant for either of us, but we quickly learned that we are working for the good of the project, and egos must be put aside. I don't always agree with WHL, or any other editor. You should assume good faith in other editors and the process in general... Doc9871 (talk) 03:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but unlike Lar, you don't strike me as a genuinely neutral party. You seem like a partisan. I don't see any evidence you are being even-handed here, so while your comments are prima facie indisputable, you'll forgive me for being a bit cynical.—Chowbok☠ 04:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have no stake in you, WHL, SRQ: any of you. I edit articles that overlap with other editors, and I try to work with them, not against them. I've disputed with both SRQ and WHL on separate incidents that were respectfully resolved, and I can still edit harmoniously on the same articles. Policy is what's important, not anything else, really. So, while I am certainly no "angel", and my edit history is there for all to see, the evidence of my "even-handedness" hardly classifies me as a "partisan", does it? Doc9871 (talk) 04:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What bothers me about this is the lengths that Chowbok will go to try and discredit me, including posting what amounts to personal attacks. Over and over, on various talk pages across this project. It's sad that so much vehemence exists in someone to go to lengths like this. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have you ever asked yourself why?—Chowbok☠ 06:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's fairly obvious to most everyone who has seen it. You said it best when you said you were just waiting for me to self-destruct and get permanently banned. And the point is that each and every time you post a personal attack, you're violating a basic behavior policy tenet: WP:NPA, right down the list on that page. What is mystifying is your assertion of moral superiority in the face of that. Wildhartlivie (talk) 06:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Both of you: If you want to work through differences here, I'm happy to host that. If you want to snipe at each other, I'd rather you didn't do that here, thanks. ++Lar: t/c 17:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding your comment here[19], there's no way to solve this, correct? As far as I understand the situation, admins can only rule on conduct issues, not content. Unless Wikipedia undergoes major changes (which the community seems to oppose), content will not be determined by who's right, but simply by which side has the most tenacious editors. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are ways to at least ameliorate it, if not solve it. ++Lar: t/c 03:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not from where I sit. I tell my RL friends about my experiences at Wikipedia and they can't believe what goes on here. They die laughing when I tell them that we've spent 3 months arguing over the name of the article! And we still haven't decided yet! It's pathetic, really. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This was sarcasm, right? You're referring to an opinion piece by Lawrence Solomon that was so full of errors that it can only be a positive embarrassment to anybody critical of Wikipedia. I'd be worried if committed climate skeptics like Solomon were not complaining, or if climate experts (who have said very nice things about our work on global warming) were putting forth legitimate complaints about errors in our work. We are, after all, supposed to be covering the science, and not fictions to sooth Solomon and his colleagues. --TS 03:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC) (I merged this with A Quest for Knowledge's comment above, on discovering that both of us are responding to the same comment). --TS 03:52, 22 February 2010 (UTC) [reply]
No, no sarcasm was intended. To be clear, I'm not referring to that opinion piece in isolation. ++Lar: t/c 03:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
TS: What's so surprising? WMC's misconduct has been documented by other reliable sources. From the New Yorker, "For all its protocol, Wikipedia’s bureaucracy doesn’t necessarily favor truth. In March, 2005, William Connolley, a climate modeller at the British Antarctic Survey, in Cambridge, was briefly a victim of an edit war over the entry on global warming, to which he had contributed. After a particularly nasty confrontation with a skeptic, who had repeatedly watered down language pertaining to the greenhouse effect, the case went into arbitration. “User William M. Connolley strongly pushes his POV with systematic removal of any POV which does not match his own,” his accuser charged in a written deposition. “His views on climate science are singular and narrow.” A decision from the arbitration committee was three months in coming, after which Connolley was placed on a humiliating one-revert-a-day parole. The punishment was later revoked, and Connolley is now an admin, with two thousand pages on his watchlist—a feature that enables users to compile a list of entries and to be notified when changes are made to them. He says that Wikipedia’s entry on global warming may be the best page on the subject anywhere on the Web. Nevertheless, Wales admits that in this case the system failed. It can still seem as though the user who spends the most time on the site—or who yells the loudest—wins." [20]A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, if there are complaints by others, why are they not covered at Criticism of Wikipedia? You're not, by any chance, referring to James Delingpole's column which was largely a verbatim reproduction of part of Solomon's piece, complete with errors? A search on google news on "climate change" and wikipedia doesn't show much critical of Wikipedia. I noticed a letter to the editor of the Napa Valley Register. A search on wikipedia and "global warming" turns up similar lack of relevant results, and wikipedia and "climategate", which I was sure would show something, is even more disappointing. But if our coverage of global warming has attracted more criticism it should go into the appropriate article alongside Solomon's.
A Quest for Knowledge, do please read the piece you are citing. The New Yorker piece, very far from "[documenting] WMC's misconduct", expresses the opinion that a person making loud accusations against Connolley was successful in subverting Wikipedia's procedures resulting in an unfair remedy which was subsequently revoked. "It can still seem as though the user who spends the most time on the site—or who yells the loudest—wins," says the author, and she isn't referring to Connolley, with whom she clearly sympathizes. You could argue over whether her impression of the case is correct, but this would not alter the fact that you have badly misinterpreted her meaning. --TS 04:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, probably a case of confirmation bias. Nevertheless, the New Yorker's conclusion that "the user who spends the most time on the site—or who yells the loudest—wins" certainly applies to this situation. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all. For all the energy he has expended and the time he has devoted, scibaby's overall effect on the articles is, at most, the occasional semiprotection. --TS 04:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard the name before, but I think scibaby was before my time. I only created my account a year ago. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some might contend that the response to Scibaby's trolling caused more disruption than the trolling itself. Cla68 (talk) 05:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think that would be a defensible statement, if you're referring to abuses of checkuser. --TS 05:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quite. ++Lar: t/c 06:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not referring to scibaby either. ++Lar: t/c 06:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Coverage of bias?
Could someone point me to the reputable, mainstream coverage of systemic bias in Wikipedia's climate articles which Lar and others are alluding to? I'm aware that several partisans in the political debate on climate change have written opinion pieces decrying a perceived underrepresentation of their faction's viewpoint. If one sets aside poorly fact-checked opinion pieces (probably a good general policy for an encyclopedia), the only reliable secondary sources I've found have been quite positive about the climate-change articles. Nature lamented that "In politically sensitive areas such as climate change, researchers have had to do battle with sceptics pushing an editorial line that is out of kilter with mainstream scientific thinking." (PMID 16355169). The New Yorker article, which has already been mentioned in this thread, was very sympathetic to William in his conflict with a "skeptic who had repeatedly watered down language pertaining to the greenhouse effect." In the Denver Post, an expert reviewer called the climate-change articles "a great primer on the subject, suitable for just the kinds of use one might put to a traditional encyclopedia." ([21])
I can see it's becoming the typical (and typically unvalidated) Wikipedia conventional wisdom that the climate change articles are some sort of international embarrassment to Wikipedia. Please, please tell me you can point me to some reputable, independent sources making that claim (like, say, Nature or the New Yorker). Please tell me it isn't just based on a couple of poorly fact-checked partisan op-eds. People who hold minoritarian views are often incensed to find that Wikipedia gives greater prominence to widely accepted viewpoints, but that's not a sign that we've failed (if anything, rather the opposite).
I'll be the first to admit I don't follow media coverage of the climate-change debate very closely. If someone can point me to some independent, reliable sources decrying the bias in our climate-change articles, I'm happy to reassess my viewpoint. I hope that if the supposed "shame" reflected on Wikipedia by these articles is in fact based only a a handful of partisan and factually iffy opinion pieces, that others are willing to reassess their viewpoints as well. Either way, more sources and critical thinking would help inform the question. MastCellTalk 06:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is what made me think Lar must be using sarcasm. Although on the talk pages of the global warming articles one gets used to a lot of muttering about supposed bias and what an embarrassment Wikipedia's coverage of global warming is, there seems to be surprisingly little bad press about Wikipedia at all, and (excepting a few partisans who do not check their facts) almost nothing negative about Wikipedia's coverage of global warming. In fact one is more likely to find Wikipedia cited as a source, which suggests that we're very much in the press's good books, for whatever that is worth. I even noticed our own William M. Connolley consulted by the Guardian, alongside other more illustrious climate experts, on the question of how to reform or replace the creaky old seven-years-to-write-a-report IPCC. [22] --TS 06:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yikes we just got a $2M grant from Google! No wonder people are leaving Wikipedia. etc, etc, etc... --TS 06:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Look, don't try to whitewash things. I can tell you from my own experience what the atmosphere around the AGW articles is like. About six months after I started editing Wikipedia, I was having a good time. I had started editing the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal article and was really impressed with the helpful advice and freindly assistance I was getting from the MILHIST editors, including Kirill Lokshin. One day I decided to cruise on over to the global warming article and check it out. I made some edits (I think as an IP because I didn't bother always logging in at that time), but they were reverted immediately without comment by one of the regulars who is still around. I tried to ask why on the talk page and was stunned at the rude, condescending replies that I got, especially from Connolley. Besides my RfA, what I experienced on the GW talk page over those few weeks in 2006 when I tried to make some headway with the editors who were controlling that article is still the most unpleasant experience I've ever had in Wikipedia. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but I'm positive that I'm not the only one to say or think this. Cla68 (talk) 06:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not whitewashing. Far from it. The global warming articles are a magnet for people who appear to hold a genuine belief that whatever blog or news column they read last is the final nail in the coffin of global warming. Telling each one gently and firmly that we're not a blog or a forum and their edits have to conform to Wikipedia's policies takes patience and persistence. You should try that for a few weeks. This makes the global warming area a very nasty editing environment. The quality of the articles, however, is high, as is much of Wikipedia's science coverage. You should seriously consider the possibility that, if you cannot get your edits into the article, it's because they do not command consensus. I've had very few problems myself, even on very controversial climate change articles. --TS 07:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You did edit as logged in, by the way. Here's an example. [23] You were new at the time so could not really be expected to understand every nuance of policy. I think on this occasion at least, everybody seemed to be being terribly nice to you. But they didn't agree with your concept of how the neutral point of view policy applies to science. --TS 07:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Check this out Tony, especially Connolley's last comment. I think you hit the nail on the head. The regulars at those articles appear to have taken a side in the debate over whether AGW is true or not, deciding that it is stone cold science. Therein is the rub. We're not supposed to take a side. We're supposed to pretend that we don't care which view or side is right or wrong. If the regulars at those articles had that attitude, then the spirit of the talk page discussions would be, I'm sure, completely different, with more patient and congenial discussions of sources, opinions, and weight. The impression I got from that talk page in 2006 was that the four or so regulars on that article had gotten it phrased exactly the way they wanted and with the POV that they wanted, and brooked no suggestion of change or comments about NPOV issues. By any measure, that attitude is completely contrary to the spirit of a wiki, which requires collaboration, cooperation, and compromise, three things which are lacking, based on my experience, from the AGW articles. Cla68 (talk) 07:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You've completely misread what was going on. The scientific debate on global warming was done and dusted over ten years ago, and you didn't know that (and possibly still, even now, do not acknowledge it). Because of this, you had little success in persuading others. It's a pattern I've seen thousands of times on this and other science articles. When an overwhelming scientific consensus exists, somebody who is unaware of this fact will inevitably perceive bias in any neutral account of the state of the science. --TS 07:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, you. :) On reviewing this the level of condescension there is breathtaking. I'm sorry if you can't see it, but it's there, and it's the sort of thing that in my view, drives folk away. Take a good long look at Strategy:Task force/Community Health/Former Contributors Survey Results and think about the implications of all those comments about controlling editors, POV pushing, and the like. ++Lar: t/c 16:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As long as notable scientists like Freeman Dyson are disputing the AGW "consensus", it is not established as fact. If you are convinced that the IPCC's stance on AGW is totally correct and the article's should reflect that POV, then you are taking a side and I don't see how you can comply with the NPOV policy. Cla68 (talk) 07:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We don't write about scientific matters as "established as fact". We write about the state of the science. The state of the science is that there is an overwhelming consensus (Dyson notwithstanding) the there is a recent warming trend, most of which is very likely caused by human activities. This is measured in the preponderance of the results of published, peer reviewed research. It's our job to examine the state of the science, not to second-guess it. We cannot appeal to scientific papers that have not been researched, written, reviewed, revised and published, We cannot appeal to the possibility that the overwhelming consensus may be wrong because Freeman Dyson doesn't wholly agree with it. We just describe that view, and (more briefly) note alternative views for which there is significant scientific support in the peer reviewed literature. --TS 07:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no problem at all with stating in the articles that what you just said above enjoys a preponderance of support in the global scientific and political community. The sources support that. The problem is that there are plenty of reliable sources reporting on significant dissenting opinions, both from scientists, politicians, and other observers, such as investigative journalists like Christopher Booker. Here's where the problem happens in Wikipedia. Certain editors try to keep this information out completely or minimize it as much as possible using various measures, such as being uncompromising and stubborn or using delay tactics in talk page discussions, attempting to discredit critical sources, adding negative information to the Wikipedia BLPs of critics (see Fred Singer or Michael Crichton while he was alive) while reverting negative information that is added to proponents BLPS, refusing to allow newspapers to be used as sources, and so on. In other words, taking a side. We can't do that. We're supposed to collaborate, cooperate, and compromise to report on what the reliable sources are saying. We then let the reader decide what is true. Cla68 (talk) 08:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What WP should cover?
Everybody has an opinion. What matters in science is published research. We report on the research. An opinionated scientist isn't scientific evidence for anything. Nor,for that matter, an opinionated politician, pundit, media researcher or journalist. --TS 08:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you elaborate? Those two words didn't quite tell me enough to follow your argument. ++Lar: t/c 16:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@TS: This matter isn't purely scientific. We should report what reliable sources say, without giving undue weight to viewpoints that don't merit it but without stifling them either. That means we should report on more than just research as we are a general interest encyclopedia, not a science compendium. Controversy and dissenting viewpoints are relevant and article control by the majority viewpoint is inappropriate. Even if I happen to personally agree with the majority viewpoint, and that scientific consensus in this matter is valid, it's nevertheless inappropriate. This perceived suppression of dissenting views is what brings us into disrepute. ++Lar: t/c 16:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, if there has been untowards meddling with the peer review process, as many sources now claim, it could take some time for citations drawn from scientific journals to catch up and readers should in the meantime be made aware that the science is not by any means settled. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, I don't argue that non-majority viewpoints should not be included and I don't argue that reports about the public controversy should focus solely on the majority viewpoint. This is what is so frustrating about this matter. Within days of the CRU hacking article being created we had a balanced article that included all the main accusations of the time and the responses of those accused, but some people reading the article didn't seem to see that because the arguments being made (which at that time were relatively poor--some serious concerns did arise later) were not being accepted by the scientific community and the article made that fact abundantly plain. These were the days of the easily debunked "Hide the decline" and "Mike's nature trick" canards which even the lay press quickly grasped were not the smoking guns the blog sites seemed to think they were.
The alternative of writing the article to give fringe viewpoints prominence, in an article that involved both important voices from within the scientific community and some highly technical arguments, would not have been acceptable, but I understand why a lot of editors thought it should, since the newspapers were doing a poor job of covering it in the first few days and the blogosphere was full of accusations. There was a strong minority feeling on the talk page that Wikipedia should go with the blog accusations, but as these had been easily disposed of by reliable scientific sources that wasn't an option. Playing up the conspiracy stuff would not have been good for Wikipedia--then or now.
One thing. by the way, that I strongly resent, is this recurring accusation of ownership and control, which you yourself repeat uncritically. I'm not interested in control and I voluntarily stopped editing the CRU hacking article when other editors said they thought I was taking too much interest. As far as I'm concerned if an editor thinks he's indispensible to an article's health, he should take a break, and that applies to small groups too. From what I can tell there is a steady stream of reasonably well informed individuals coming along and attempting to edit the articles with due concern for the state of the science and the public debate (always bearing in mind that, for instance, public acceptance of global warming science in Europe is much higher than in the United States). There are some very highly qualified writers, too, who do a great deal to improve the quality of the articles. I don't think it's plausible to assume that those people form an ownership cabal. The main problem I see here is a contrast between the uninformed rubbish people read on blogs and forums, and the scientifically literate material they encounter on Wikipedia. This inevitably creates friction, and historically editors in the science field on Wikipedia have handled this kind of friction badly.
Finally, you again repeat uncritically the notion that Wikipedia's global warming coverage brings us into disrepute, even after I've shown you the results of my own searches that find nothing of the sort. Would you care to examine your beliefs and see if they're supported by the facts? --TS 17:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Gwen, it's one thing to say that the science isn't settled, quite another to find even a tiny bit of evidence that it is not. Believe me, I've looked, and continue to keep looking, for any evidence that a rethink of the science of global warming is under way. The accusations of manipulation of peer review will be looked at by the relevant organisations and we will in due course report on that. But we don't have a crystal ball and for now we write about the existing overwhelming consensus supported by thousands of peer reviewed papers. --TS 17:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you will. My outlook is that the very narrow range of sources you're willing to give any heed, which now seem highly flawed, will either catch up or lose any meaningful bearing on the topic. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It appears you are saying that either peer reviewed studies will prove you right, or peer reviewed studies are irrelevent. Is there not a third option - that you are wrong? If such a third option exists, how can it be proven correct? Hipocrite (talk) 18:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hipocrite, I didn't say that, that's your take on what I said. My outlook can be shown as mistaken (falsified) if we find the science has not been corrupted through data meddling owing to highly selective, coercive state funding driven by political goals, which are already thoroughly documented and widely understood. Aside from this, there are two research topics here and neither is at all settled. Is there global warming and is it owing to an anthropomorphic cause? If sea levels do rise 82cm, the Himalayas lose their ice, cargo and cruise ships ply scheduled routes over the North Pole and through the Northwest Passage, crop yields in the northern hemisphere triple and wine grapes grow in Britain, as the Romans grew them in the first century and as Britons did in the 11th century during the medieval warming, none of which we can yet foresee, but may be able to foresee someday, it's not yet "settled" that this would have been brought forth by anthropomorphic means. Meanwhile there is much evidence that cap and trade is but another derivatives scheme flogged by Wall Street and the City (and no, that's not the free market, quite otherwise). Gwen Gale (talk) 18:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that your statement that what you call "thoroughly documented and widely understood," is not accurate, nor documented, nor widely understood, and I further suggest that your statement that there is an open scientific question as to "Is there global warming," is again not accurate. Further, I suggest that there is hardly an open scientific question as to "is it owing to an anthropomorphic cause." This is exactly the kind of thing that indiviudals who are scientifically literate in any dicipline have to deal with at this encyclopedia - the cult of the Amature. I don't pretend to dispute things about literature or poetry - why do I have to constantly try to deal with editors who tell me that all preferences are cardinal on economics pages? Hipocrite (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll patiently wait for evidence to accrue. On the narrow range of sources to which I give credence, well on accusations of widespread and systemic academic fraud that is true, but that's because extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof. We'll see what the various inquiries manage to dig up, then we'll write about it. We won't write about massive academic fraud just because some guy on the internet has a theory. And that's not just me speaking for myself, as you'll know if you're aware of our verifiability and neutrality policies. But make no mistake, if proper evidence turns up we shall write about it. --TS 18:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tony: You say "One thing. by the way, that I strongly resent, is this recurring accusation of ownership and control, which you yourself repeat uncritically. "... well I say in turn that if we are to go about "strongly resent"ing things I strongly resent you characterizing my views as repeating this uncritically. That gives me rather short shrift, I'm afraid, and I don't make this observation lightly. There is the appearance of ownership and control in this topic area. It actually doesn't matter if there actually IS ownership and control or not, because it's the appearance that is damaging. You can repeat that there isn't, as many times as you like, but that doesn't make the appearance go away. ++Lar: t/c 18:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that in the circumstances my only sensible alternative is to exclude myself from writing about the subject and rely on other Wikipedians to take up the slack (which they will do, make no mistake). As you're probably aware I've been umming and awing about this for most of February and you're the second admin to remark on how it is appearances that matter. I'll keep up the templating and other gnome work associated with the probation, and will probably try to work out how to do checkuser requests, but I don't think any informed, educated, intelligent Wikipedian can continue editing on climate change when more than one indepdendent admin explicitly states the suspension of the assume good faith guideline with respect to those editing global warming articles so as to give due prominence to the state of the science. --TS 18:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you miss my point. Appearances do matter. We judge on outcomes, not intents. If a (random) article is a horribly biased and poorly written, it doesn't matter whether the authors had the best of intentions or the worst, we need to fix it. It is not a violation of AGF to point out the issues. This is true of processes as much as it is of articles. If a process consistently produces results we find flawed, it doesn't matter whether the process developers had the best of intentions or the worst, we need to fix it. If the very process of editing in the CC/AGW area is difficult because of perceived issues of control, it needs fixing. I am willing to AGF and assume that those who are causing the problem in this don't intend to, and don't think that they are. But they have been told about this over and over. In fact this is a goodly aspect of why there is an enforcement regime in the first place. If after being told there is a perception problem, that editors shudder to interact with them, that they are perceived as condescending, and they are unwilling to change their approach, that is where we run out of AGF, for at that point, once the problem has been surfaced, they are no longer being collegial. Read the diff Cla gave again, carefully and see the condescension there. Read the survey I pointed you to, and evaluate the results. Slide 18 is very significant. It's not the UI that keeps editors from returning, it's the editing environment. That needs to change, or Wikipedia will enter a period of decline. If it hasn't already. NO amount of high profile funding will change it, if editors are gradulally drifting away and not being replaced at an adequate rate. ++Lar: t/c 18:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What suggestions are you prepared to offer that will deal with the "perceived issues of control," without at the same time making the articles reflect the most recent conservative-blog pushed meme, like, for instance, those presented in this very section about the settled nature of the science? I further note that "Reality has a well-known liberal bias." Perhaps Wikipedia reflects that? I'd very much like to really review that survey - perhaps some of the responders will let us look at their editing history, and we can find out who is getting driven away by terrible bias, and who is getting driven away by shitty software. Hipocrite (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's likely the high profile funding has had something to do with bringing about these woes. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I agree. I think it's more the high profile of the site itself, and the realization that content here matters (if 60% percent of journos start here, it's going to be influential). The funding is a result of that. But perhaps you could elaborate? ++Lar: t/c 18:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a feeback loop and not by happenstance. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dave souza twists things around
Lar, I'm assuming that in good faith you don't see that you're presenting the kind of appearance of ownership that you're accusing Tony of presenting. If you've driven him away, I'm disappointed as he seems to have been doing a good job of keeping both "sides" in check and encouraging cooperative editing. Good editors are driven away by encouraging persistent pov pushers promoting minority or fringe views, and firm adherence to content policies is needed to improve the editing environment. Civility is also important, but not when civil pov pushing is rewarded. . . dave souza, talk 18:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was sarcasm, right? Because as humorous parody, it flat out fails, and as serious discourse, it shows a breathtakingly high level of confusion and denialism. ++Lar: t/c 18:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
