User talk:PBS/Archive 8

Eritrean-Ethiopian War

Hey there PBS. In the edit notes you suggested that there was not more than one front, however, in your edit you said that the EIJ/EIS and the OLF were included. These would be two different fronts as one conducts actions in Oromia and the other in Gash-Barka...How do you respond? Would it not be multiple fronts? --Merhawie 17:06, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

It depends what one means by fronts. For example the commando raids on Norway are not usually seen as part of the Western Front, nor for that matter are the strategic bombing campaigns of World War II. Although the word has a metaphorical meaning, I do not think that that is an appropriate in an article about a war. Regards Philip Baird Shearer 17:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

PBS...that is a very good point...do you have any recommendations though? Because as it stands now the title is simply incorrect. --Merhawie 18:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I used the sub-secton header "Fighting Spreads to Somalia" because it was the one used in the first reference. But after you edit, I decided that sub-section title Fighting in Somalia probably fitted the parent section (War) better. What is it that you think is incorrect about it? --Philip Baird Shearer 22:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Well the section specifically talks about the involvement of the EIJ and the EIS and these groups do not (at least to my knowledge) operate in Somalia, the Oromia or anywhere but Eastern Sudan and Western Eritrea. Because of this I think the section title is inaccurate. --Merhawie 22:48, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

World Statesman site

Please share your thoughts with me wheter this site - http://www.worldstatesmen.org - is a WP:RS. Thank you,--Velimir85 17:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:Cross of Sacrifice.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Cross of Sacrifice.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, then you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, then their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, please add a proper copyright licensing tag if the file doesn't have one already. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self-no-disclaimers}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Wikipedia:Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 09:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Strangerer (Talk) 09:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• It says {{GFDL}}, but it doesn't state the source of the image. Who released it as GDFL? --Strangerer (Talk) 10:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
• I tagged it because it wasn't clear who had created the image or where it had come from. Someone else could have created it and released it under GDFL; then if you upload it and just use {{GDFL}} with no other information, it's not really clear who the author is. Apparently you are the creator? The page doesn't give any information about it. I'll go ahead and replace it with {{GFDL-self-no-disclaimers}} for you. --Strangerer (Talk) 10:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Huh?

Do you know what on earth has happened here?

• [1]

The summary says that the deletion was made by User:Conscious, but that Admin has not made a contribution since the 5th May. --Mais oui! 18:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It did not shown up in my Watchlist. I only noticed it because I happened to click on the direct link, and got the "article does not exist" screen, as I would if it had been a redlink. --Mais oui! 18:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Portal: Genocide

No, i don't Ashkani. Thanks for the warm welcome too. I would like to further discuss the Portal: Genocide topic though. Amerihay 22:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

River Teme

You helped me last summer deal with views on the navigability of the River Teme, which are unsupported by any firm historical evidence, and seem ultimately to derive from one Andy Mabbett (possibly misspelt), who subsequently became a blocked user. The same sort of assertions have reappeared in the article. Could I ask you to watch the article and act as referee? My 2006 article remains unrefuted. The fact that various older works (and formner webpages) mention the alternative view should not make them right. Nevertheless, as the author of the latest major article, it is not necessarily easy for me to be objective. Peterkingiron 22:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Jvalant/Indian Rebellion

Greetings,

I'm considering whether to take Jvalant to the ArbCom on the Indian Rebellion page. You seem to have been dealing with the page for far longer than I have, so I was wondering you had any thoughts on the matter. --RaiderAspect 11:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully the 3RR report will result in an improvement in behaviour. And yes, it's odd really; many of Wikipedia's most ardent nationalists don't seem to live in the nation they defend to the death. --RaiderAspect 12:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Template talk:Unreferenced

Looks like you are getting ready to do a big archive move on Template talk:Unreferenced. If/when you do would you drop me note (in case I miss the move) I would like to do a review and write up on the contently reoccurring none verses one reference argument and provide links to the archived talks. Actually I will probably start on review in my sandbox this weekend as I just finished the section I was working on there. Jeepday (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: Peninsular War

Your shameless rules lawyering is extremely unwelcome and unappreciated. I know 3R very well and I rate it accordingly. So you can continue to invoke 3R with all due posturing and mock innocence, but a far graver case rests against those who force through foolish edits using bad etiquette and manipulation of Wikipedia guidelines. If you felt the slightest confidence in your justification for your edits, in the strength of your case when exposed to the scrutiny of honest discussion, or in your experience with the recent historiography of the Peninsular War, then you would present arguments instead of entrenching yourself behind 3R.

In brief: Have I any reason not to dismiss your would-be edit warring as the disruptive project of an awkward ingenue? Let's hear you justify yourself. Do you deny that a sizeable number of present-day English-language historians and scholarly publications (Esdaile, Gates, Britannica, Revolutionary Spain) employ the term? Is it not enough that Spanish War of Independence is used in the German, French, Italian, and Hungarian wikis (besides Castilian and other Spanish dialects)? Do you suppose you have any precedent for burying alternate names in footnotes? (go ahead, pick articles at random: Seven Years' War, Austro-Prussian War, War of the Grand Alliance, etc., you'll find a glaring rebuke in each) Of course, no one denies that "Peninsular War" is the most common English name; that's why the article sits where is does. But to try to pretend it's the only name is palpably narrow-minded and counterproductive. Albrecht 03:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

When you have time, please set out your terms for further discussion or resolution of the naming dispute. I am also prepared to address any remaining concerns you have with the second paragraph. You may reply on my talk page if you prefer. Albrecht 01:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to resolving the naming issue. Do you want to refer the matter to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Napoleonic era task force, or are you prepared to reach a solution on the talk page? Let me know your thoughts. Albrecht 18:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm almost amazed that you can speak of protecting the "flow" when the introduction begins like this:

“ The Peninsular War was a war in the Iberian Peninsula. An alliance of Spain, Portugal, and the United Kingdom battled the French Empire during the Napoleonic Wars. The... ”

I'd say choppiness is the main issue at present, which the addition of an extra name or two could hardly exacerbate. I have considered your suggestion of putting the names in a separate paragraph but I can't find a place that sits well; having the reader pause to read a paragraph exclusively on the names seems like an unforgivable interruption, especially in the introduction, where space is so precious. You may be right, though, about the removal of parenthetical translations (i.e. Spanish War of Independence (Guerre de la independencia espanola)); like you said, the interested reader can simply consult the non-English wiki of his choice.

For the moment, I would propose something like this (the precise phrasing can be subject to considerable revision):

“ The Peninsular War or Spanish War of Independence was a Napoleonic war in the Iberian Peninsula that involved an alliance of Spain, Portugal, and the United Kingdom against the French Empire. The... ”

I'm not particularly concerned about Guerre d'Espagne as it seems to be a fairly unassuming term applied to any conflict in Spain—and mainly the Spanish Civil War. I can find another place. The Portuguese name, meanwhile, can be used in "Consequences in Portugal," which should please everybody. But I remain convinced in my case for Spanish War of Independence. Again, you have my assurance that in no circumstance would I approve of additional names entering the introduction. Albrecht 21:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That's an excellent point in principle, except Wikipedia does not operate this way: We name pages in line with the most common English name, but we consider contents based on global importance. Concerning wars specifically, I am not aware of any rule that a foreign name has to be anywhere near as common as the English one before we put it in bold; judging by the examples I showed you before, editors consistently have been very liberal. For example, "Second Italian War of Independence" (-wikipedia) occurs on Google only 547 times, "la invasión estadounidense de mexico" only twice, "Saskatchewan Rebellion" only 770, "Saltpeter War" 291/64,400 (proportion to main name), "Nationalist-Communist Civil War" 78/116,000, "Second Moroccan War" 59, "Rebellion of Great Peace" 2/110,000, "Charles VIII's Italian War" 6/68,000, "Fourth Arab-Israeli War" 1,860/365,000, "Third Italian Independence War" 135/36,000. In brief, you're holding this article to standards that clearly are not in force anywhere else. Albrecht 22:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

?

Who are you and what is your purpous? I do not in any way wish to sound rude, but you should at the very least have the good will of letting us know what your intentions are. Ancient Land of Bosoni

Bosnian Muslims

About "Bosnian Muslims", it's a lost cause. "Bosnian Muslims" is a perfectly legitimate mainstream alternative to "Bosniacs/Bosniaks"; one can find it in the encyclopedias Encarta, Britannica, Columbia... This issue is basically as follows: a distinct identity in Bosnia came about with the mass conversions of Serbs and Croats to Islam. These people were known since then until the 1990s as "Bosnian Muslims", when Bosnia and Herzegovina became independent. Since then, the term "Bosnian Muslims" has been suppressed and the neologism "Bosniacs/Bosniaks" (as distinct from Bosnians) came about and it has become politically correct to refer to them with the neologism now. Bosnian Muslim/Bosniac/Bosniak historians claim that Bosniacs/Bosniaks have always existed, and have rewritten history back to the middle ages to make room for their ethnic group and the medieval self-identifying Serb rulers of Bosnia are declared proud Bosniacs/Bosniaks by them. For what mainstream experts think, see what I wrote here. For the greatest propagandistic version of the history of Bosnia, see here and the heading of this talkpage. The suppression of the term "Bosnian Muslim" in favor of "Bosniacs/Bosniaks" is promoted on Wikipedia by Bosniac/Bosniak users themselves and users who support "human rights" and "political correctness", despite the fact that the neologism hasn't yet caught one in English (mostly because most people unrelated to Yugoslavia aren't familiar yet with the new name - they were referred to as (Bosnian) "Muslims" officially under communist Yugoslavia). As far as I can tell, there's no chance we're winning this argument - the majority rules in edit wars. Welcome to the nationalist swamps of Wikipedia where the The Law of the Jungle prevails :) --Ploutarchos 21:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda, probably from a Serb or a very uneducated English (who believes to know everything), anyway propaganda. Ancient Land of Bosoni

Dokdo/Takeshima/Liancourt Rocks

Endroit mentioned on AN/I that you stepped in about the last time the naming monster raised its head on this page (he said something about you suggesting a new poll six months after the previous one ended due to the extreme response that poll had). Almost a year later, people have finally got the spirit to raise the issue in discussion. So far everything has remained more or less civil, and no move wars have broken out (what luck). We're in the RFC stage now, maybe you would have some input or suggestion?

The main issue is whether or not we can stick with a single name out of the dispute when neither is more widely used. Then there is the issue of whether either of the local names should be considered English. If not, there is a less-used standard English name (what Google maps, treaties, etc. use). Anyway, I don't want to push my own ideas too much, just suggest you take a look and perhaps offer some guidance. --Cheers, Komdori 00:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to second that. The main thing is that any 'votes' are based on policy, and if we have to resort to Google counts it's based on a fair one. I don't want to say what this one would throw up but the last vote allowed a search of non-English pages and adding together of separate searches which is completely flawed. I just want to see a fair count. (Don't like slashes either). Thanks. Macgruder 18:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Genocide...

I'll get back to you soon. Will update text per the books involved.--Carwil 22:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Witch hunt perhaps

I am to say the least very concerned with your edits, to me it undoubtly seems like something of a witch hunt for the Bosniak people. I am not accusing you, but much of your retorics remind me of nationalistic serbian ones. And you'd be surprised how many serbs "hide" under an english name when editing, I suppose to "earn credibility" since the "whole" world wrongly believes the english to be "the only good ones". So if you feel that I accuse you of propaganda (rather than lack of knowledge) it is because I suspect nationalistic vibes, unfortunately. But as long as you will continue to deny the Bosniak people in order to claim Bosniak land on the behalf of Croats and Serbs, your edits will not be approved. Reminder: It is not very cultural to avoid discussions on wikipedia. Regards Ancient Land of Bosoni

WP:NOR

You know, all the comments at Talk:Holocaust_denial#Original_research_regarding_.22Holocaust_revisionist.22 about your edits being original research are indeed accurate, it was original research. Please read WP:NOR. Adding original research to articles on hot-button, controversial topics then make a dogged talk page stand when called on it is a sure-fire way to earn the community's distrust and exhaust its good will. You may want to consider this and rethink your method of contributing to the project. FeloniousMonk 04:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent attacks by "user: Philip Baird Shearer" and others

I posted you this message on the Bosniaks talk page

In recent days, user "Philip Baird Shearer" has been questioning the "term Bosniak", as he calls it. First off, Bosniak is not a "term" nor is it a "recently constructed name" - Bosniak (and Bosnia) have historical land founding roots back to the early middle ages. BOSNIAK is a historic ethnic designation for people who stem from Bosnia. User "Philip Baird Shearer" has however been insisting on the highly inappropriate term "Bosnian Muslims", note: this is (in contrast to Bosniak) truly a TERM and not a historic NAME/ethnicity. This term came about in the 60's during a period when Yugoslavia and Bosnia were heavily dominated by serb/croat nationalist interests. The nationalist and communist serb and croat officials frankly denied Bosniaks as a people, despite that this people is the first one recorded to inhabit the Bosnian state, if you read the article you will see that BOSNJANI (Bosniaks, in old Bosnian language) are the first recorded people of modern Bosnia. And if you further read the 'Bosnians article' you will see that bosnian croat and serb nationalities didn't exist in Bosnia prior to the 19th century. Now "Bosnian Muslims" is an inappropriate term that the west ADOPTED from communist Yugoslavia, despite that this state was not based on human rights - the way the west handles and handled Bosnia is a disappointment of great magnitude, compare for example how the kurds in turkey were called "mountain turks" by turkish officials, I haven't however yet seen any western media use this designation. What I am trying to say is, Bosniaks are a people/ethnic group that are defined by the fact that Bosnia is their motherland and their common language is Bosnian - and NOT that their majority religion happeneds to be Islam -Bosniaks have existed even prior to Islam, as any normal humanbeing could suspect (see Bosnian church). And still one should not forget that Bosniak (and Bosnian language) is a name that is protected by the Bosnian constitution and international law. The fact that MEDIA uses a false term is no reason to call it appropriate - media is famous for missguiding people and facts. User philip baird shearer says that none of his friends nor he knew about bosniaks until he read wikipedia - well Philip, we live in a time when Bosniaks almost became extinct - something which was prepared for already in the sixties by giving Bosniaks the name "Muslims" in order to undermine them as a distinct people and instead designate them as merely a religious group. Politics aren't simply black or white, remember that. Nor is it a good characteristic to be morally equivavelent all of the time, sometimes neutrality automatically serves the purpous of the perpetrator. In the future you should double check all the Bosnian facts that you might hear from croat or serb users, I have noticed that you enjoy to engage in discussions with these people. Ancient Land of Bosoni

Do not be intimidated by these or similar posts of Bosnian Muslim nationalists. You have every right to make your own oppinion, and I'll inform you that term Bosniak was practically forgotten until the beggining of the war, when muslim nationalists started using it again in an attempt to create a nation for their new state. For a vast period of preceding time, inhabitants of Bosnia were simply called Bosnians, and it was known wheter someone was Serb, Croat or Muslim. --Velimir85 19:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal of data

Hey Philip, could you tell me why you removed the data? I don't think the fact that the data is duplicate justifies anything. In many previous disputes, whenever there was an archival session, I restored data back to the talk page & no admins said anything about it. I think that restoring the archive has many practical pros. For example, I doubt that most people read the archives when they vote (probably out of laziness), and they pour out their own personal theories & dogmas. But if they see the data, then they know what to vote on. Don't you think so? Also, are you an admin? (Wikimachine 19:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

Never mind. I didn't read your explanation. (Wikimachine 19:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

Tags: Most maintenance templates should be placed on the talk page

Wikipedia:Template standardisation/article

Phillip, I saw a post that you made over at Template talk:Cleanup last February. I couldn't agree more, and have been inspired by an essay I read on tags, which I hope you will read. Lately, you may have noticed the trend towards using a small icon, instead of a big gaudy tag, on sp pages. Well, User:Notmyhandle has created a similar small icon for articles needing cleanup. You can see this new small tag here. Please take a look, and if you like it, leave a supporting note on the Template talk:Cleanup page, where he has introduced it. Unschool 14:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

rv of Dokdo

I don't like you constantly removing my recalls of previous debates that I assume as unfinished & you know well that it's completely right for me to do so. If you keep this on, I'll bring this onto admins and other editors for their opinions. (Wikimachine 23:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

If you revert without discussing with me first, I'll see this as act of aggression & call on other admins & fellow editors for support. (Wikimachine 23:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

You don't reply, but your rever. Double bind: Either you purposely refuse to reply in order to shut the opposition completley, or you are not active and I can revert - to which you will not revert.

I doubt that the article will be moved back, but feel free to present information about meat/sockpuppeting on the Liancourt Rocks side says Husond. Now, do you understand? (Wikimachine 23:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

And you won't. I'll make sure that Husond & Visviva step up to stop this revert war that you're declaring. (Wikimachine 23:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Wikimachine, you pointed me here and apparently you decided to make good on your threat [2]. I'd like to suggest you try to move forward on the article in question. I came here to thank Philip for at least trying to make some positive changes to the article and get it moving so something can develop besides the naming issue, saw this section and wanted to work my thanks into it (thanks Philip). Continuous posting on the name issue forever is going to result in a stall of virtually all progress on the article and almost certainly won't result in you gaining a consensus for your name. Apparently he's trying to avoid this disruption. —LactoseTI^T 23:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

But I don't see the move as final, and this is not a disruption. I will not let you stop me. (Wikimachine 23:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

What does that redirect answer? (Wikimachine 23:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

I don't want to get into an argument on another user's talk page, but an "I will not let you stop me" attitude is kind of indicative of "disruption." —LactoseTI^T 23:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

When the opposing party has clearly indicated that he will revert my future edits, I see my response as very moderate & controlled. (Wikimachine 23:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

So stop disrupting things; do it on your userspace if you want. No one is stopping you. The conclusion is made on the move, no one is stopping you from talking to other admins for more opinions, setting up this data on your userspace, etc. Just let editors make progress with the article at the same time. —LactoseTI^T 23:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This appears to be one of those cases where a normally calming archive operation is instead percieved as taking sides and stifling debate. Philip, I agree with you in principle, but Wikimachine's going to have this discussion if he wants to. The article talk page is arguably the right place for it. Past a certain level of controversy, attempts to short-circuit giving the community its time and space to argue it all out (pointless or not) are counterproductive. The discussion has to happen for people to feel it's over and move past it. I recommend just leaving Wikimachine be and letting him have it (subject to usual NPA and CIVIL and so forth...). Georgewilliamherbert 00:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)