Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests: Difference between revisions

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*{{question}} Would the Committee like this thread removed and archived, what with the overwhelmingly negative response to date?<br />Standing by for direction, [[User:AGK|<font color="#2A8B31">'''Anthøny'''</font>]] [[user talk:AGK|<font color="#2A8B31">✉</font>]] 18:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
*{{question}} Would the Committee like this thread removed and archived, what with the overwhelmingly negative response to date?<br />Standing by for direction, [[User:AGK|<font color="#2A8B31">'''Anthøny'''</font>]] [[user talk:AGK|<font color="#2A8B31">✉</font>]] 18:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
**It needs to stay here long enough so the party who made the request has a chance to read the responses. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 19:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
**It needs to stay here long enough so the party who made the request has a chance to read the responses. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 19:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
*Archiving the talk page is allowed, but don't squabble over it. What the arbs are essentially saying is that if you two can't even get along regarding the talk page, there are serious problems here. You two have been at each other for at least a year now and if you can't resolve your differences very quickly, a complete ban for both of you from the article AND its talk page may be in order.<span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Rlevse|<span style="color:#060;">'''''R''levse'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Rlevse|<span style="color:#990;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 16:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


==== Arbitrator views and discussion ====
==== Arbitrator views and discussion ====

Revision as of 16:54, 21 September 2008

WP:RFAR redirects here. You may be looking for Wikipedia:RfA Review (WP:RREV).

A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Current requests

Unapproved admin bots

Initiated by Prodego talk at 19:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Prodego

For the past several years, the subject of 'adminbots' has been a touchy one on Wikipedia. There is a common perception that these adminbots are opposed by the 'ZOMGADMINBOT' crowd[1], who are worried about evil admin bot overlords taking over the wiki. Unfortunately, this attitude overshadows the legitimate complaints with admin bots, and more specifically unauthorized admin bots. Unlike all other unauthorized bots, unauthorized admin bots are often ignored, instead of being blocked, as policy prescribes.[2][3] I think that this situation touches on some very important issues, including: (1) a different treatment of admins simply because they are admins (2) following a consensus among a minority that that is unable to gain wider consensus to change the policies to simply allow these types of bots (3) users taking the attitude that they are 'above' policy, or that it does not apply to them (4) lack of respect for the policies that have developed over time. Particularly in regards to this 4th point, is important to remember that policy is not law. However, if attempts have been made to change a policy, and they have repeatedly failed, simply ignoring the policy is not an acceptable line of action, it is disruption. Ignoring all rules is a great way to allow unanticipated and productive edits that would normally be against policy, but it is not intended to be applied against a policy that is already in place, and that has already developed a consensus on the exact issue for which you wish to ignore it. The users listed above have all admitted to running an unauthorized adminbot in some form[4][5][6][7][8], and (quoting Misza13) "will not request any approval simply because... the bot already is approved, authorized or whatever you call it and operaties[sic] within policy. If that policy is IAR." I find disregarding an established and well followed bot request procedure simply because you don't personally find it necessary to be a problem, and I hope that the arbcom will resolve this issue. I declined to simply block these users as policy suggests, under advice from a number of users, who suggested I file an arbitration case instead. I hope that the arbcom can solve this long term contentious user conduct issue once and for all. Thank you.


Simply put: If I can't follow policy, what is the point of policy. I would like the arbcom to implicitly or explicitly decide if it is justified, in this case, to disregard policy, as these users have, for what seems to me to be no reason other than that they don't feel like getting their bots approved. The alternative was to block Misza and file an RfAR on should anyone unblock, for violating the blocking policy. If necessary I can do that, is that what you would like? Additionally this is not about admin bots they are good. This is about unapproved admin bots we do have approved admin bots. Prodego talk 21:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cyde Weys

Admin bots have been common practice for, what, over two years now? I don't see what arbitration will achieve. Rewrite the policy to reflect current practice and be done with it. --Cyde Weys 19:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I found some links, if anyone feels like reading up on some of the previous situations where this has come up. It never hit arbitration before, though.

And it's come up on my talk page a couple of times too, but I'll spare you all of that. --Cyde Weys 21:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Majorly:
Saying "false positives should never happen" is a utopian ideal at odds with reality. There are false positives (and false negatives) in every industry; the trick is to make them as infrequent as possible. Incidentally, when tasks are trivially automated (such as the CFD tasks my bot does), the error rate goes way down when they are handed over to a robot. The comparison here is against the human, and humans are far from perfect, especially when drudging through mind-numbing, tedious, and repetitive tasks. I made a lot more mistakes when I was handling CFD tasks manually than my CFD bot does now. Ever consider why, when a manufacturing process requires really tight tolerances, it inevitably comes down to a robot doing the precision work? --Cyde Weys 21:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (uninvolved) CBM

There has been ongoing discussion about the issue of adminbots at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Adminbots. A change was proposed in the bot policy some time ago [6], and yesterday I removed the "proposed" sticker. It seems to me that (1) the issue here is that the bot policy has been out of sync for a long time, as descriptive policies often are, and (2) that problem is being resolved through discussion already. For the record, although I am familiar with bots and adminbots, I don't run any adminbots. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re Carcharoth: the 'proposed' tag was added again. The main point of disagreement at the moment seems to be how to deal with existing admin bots; I don't think anyone has objected (yet?) to the part about future adminbots being approved by BAG. The discussion is at WT:BOT. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Миша13

This filing is an example of feeding one's process-wonky needs - playing the process for the sake of it. Not only Prodego is in error in his/her statement that other dispute resolution steps have been tried, he/she does not make clear what the arbitration is supposed to accomplish. ArbCom is not for making you feel warm and fuzzy about the process. On top of that, he/she is citing me with limited context and even then ignoring parts of it (specifically the part about the bot being already "approved, authorized or whatever you call it"). Plz u b wrting an lolenziklopedia, kthx. Миша13 19:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MBisanz

I think we may be short some parties here, bot policy says:

Bots (short for "robots") are generally programs or scripts that make automated edits without the necessity of human decision-making.

Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Adminbots#List_of_adminbots_and_admins_running_deletion_scripts lists several admins running automated scripts for admin activities who are not named in this RFAR. They probably ought to be added if ArbCom decides to take a global look at this issue. MBisanz talk 19:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment to Majorly, the block in question was this block [7] for rapid page moving of the Faggot (slang)[8] after this grawp-like edit [9] and this penis-vandal edit [10] some days earlier. He was later determined to be banned user User:Who ordered 137? and blocked indef, so I really would not hold it against Misza for blocking a banned user who was probably trying to trigger his bot. MBisanz talk 20:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reading the comments here, at the RFC, and at WT:BOT, I'd like to raise the idea of formal WP:Mediation as a way to get all the parties on a single page under a single mediator to keep the conversation on track and towards a goal. Just an idea. MBisanz talk 12:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Majorly

There have been numerous issues with admin bots in the past. I can't think of any specifically, but I do remember an occasion when Misza13 (or rather, his bot) blocked a user because of a so-called bad username, and it wasn't. I remember him defending his (bot's) action, saying words to the effect of "99% of its blocks are good". That isn't good enough, it needs to be 100%. If this bot is so important and works so well, it should be approved like the one other approved admin bot, User:RedirectCleanupBot. Majorly talk 20:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@MBisanz: I don't care if the user is blocked now. It was a false positive, which should never happen. Majorly talk 21:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@MBisanz: And that isn't the one I was thinking of. Majorly talk 21:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments moved from a section set aside for another editor and reformatted.[11] WP:RFAR/G#Responding to others' statements. Anthøny 21:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyde Weys: If the bot was approved, at least it was a legitimate process that made the mistake. Obviously mistakes will happen, but when they happen with what's essentially an illegal process, that's when there's an issue. I don't understand the apparent difficulty in requesting approval... Majorly talk 21:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed and refactored, again. Edit only your own section please. Anthøny 21:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another comment: a request for a deletion bot was carried out in November last year, which would delete old user/talk pages from blocked editors. Despite it failing, ST47 continued to delete old page, en masse. Ignoring the outcome of a community discussion and running the bot anyway shows complete contempt for the community. The RfA may as well have not been run. Luckily, he doesn't seem to have deleted anymore since, but still, I don't like the attitude from many bot people around this whole thing (in particular ST47, Misza13 and MZMcBride). Majorly talk 08:32, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Despite this ongoing RfAr, MZMcBride continues to (what seems to be) bot-delete pages en-masse. We have an approved admin bot, running legitimately on its own account to delete broken redirects. Why do we need another admin account doing it illegimately? Why can't MZMcBride request adminship for the bot like Eagle101 and WJBscribe did? Majorly talk 08:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by krimpet

The point of IAR is to "be bold, but not reckless." Some of our community-elected admins have been running semi-automated and automated tools to help ease the workload for all and keep the project running behind the scenes. The engineering of these tools has been extremely careful and precise - one could say the "gray-area" nature of these tools has encouraged a very high level of quality assurance, since any false positives or bugs would probably lead to a huge, contentious discussion (like what led to the Betacommand arbitration case). If the filing party can provide some evidence on how these admins have actually caused disruption or harm since that case, that would be great... but I am not aware of any since then. krimpet 20:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from AGK

Whilst it is indeed true that adminbots have been a contentious topic in principle for a sizeable period of time (namely, the past 2 years or so), in practice their continued presence has not constituted any danger or threat to the project. I am even inclined to state that the actions of adminbots (robot code, mass-action scripts, etc., being used on administrator accounts) by-and-large are a net positive for the project, and have very little to no ill effect.

Should this matter be considered for acceptance by the Committee, I note that it needs to be demonstrated that there is a serious issue to be Arbitrated. The presentation of a sample of evidence showing that adminbots have a disruptive effect on the encyclopedia is what I have in mind.

It may be a more productive and more feasible course of action, to focus on analysing the results of the adminbots request for comment, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Adminbots. Developing a new forum for granting permission for administrators who run bot scripts on their account to continue to do so, as well as setting up a discussion specifically angled at how to interpret the RfC's results, may be a course of action likely to be more fruitful than a (premature) request for arbitration at this time.

Comment by probably involved Mr.Z-man

I'm not entirely sure why I'm not a party, given that I'm listed on the RFC talk page as having run an adminbot. I haven't run it in some time, mainly due to lack of time. Prodego writes:

unauthorized admin bots are often ignored, instead of being blocked, as policy prescribes

With the possible exception of polices that have real-world implications such as WP:COPY and WP:BLP, policy doesn't "prescribe" anything. It is a description of how things are actually done and probably should be done. As long as it helps the project (or at the least doesn't hurt it), no one has to follow policy (with the exceptions mentioned previously). The RFC mentioned above was not an attempt at dispute resolution, but a policy-RFC to get a policy for adminbots that doesn't suck. Blocking is supposed to prevent damage (hypothetical disruption is not damage, something has to actually be disrupted), from what I've seen, all of the adminbots currently operating are as, or more, accurate than humans. The benefit to Misza's bot is quite clear. Grawp socks are being blocked before they hit the pagemove throttle, often after only a couple moves. Mr.Z-man 21:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved User:B

Having a mass arbitration is ludicrous. If there is any actual evidence of abuse, a case should be considered separately rather than asking arbcom to formulate our bot policy. Cyde, for example, has been running his bot non-controversially for a long time and it pre-dates a lot of the more recent complaining. It is an integral part of our CFD process and eliminating it would simply create extra work. If there's actual evidence that one of the named parties has abused the admin tools or run an unauthorized bot, ok, bring it, but lumping them all in together is asking for a policy to be created, not asking for something to be arbitrated. --B (talk) 21:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved JzG

Ages ago we had Curps (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), a user of such dramatic efficiency that pagemove vandals were blocked in no time and username blocks were performed almost at time of registration. I think it would be pushing our credulity to assume that no automation went into that. I would say that in as much as there is a consensus, it is that adminbots are a regrettable necessity in a few limited circumstances, but definitely not to be encouraged or allowed to proliferate. This appears to be a collision between principle and pragmatism. In the past, pragmatism would appear to have come out ahead on points. Whether that would still be the case now I don't know. On the basis of WP:BOLD, what Cyde says above, and policy being descriptive not prescriptive, perhaps a tweak to the policy page is the answer here. Guy (Help!) 21:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Carcharoth

I would urge a full reading of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Adminbots by everyone commenting on this matter, plus the earlier threads that Cyde has pointed out and any other history that gets linked to. There is quite a bit of background here. I think most of FT2's questions are answered or partially addressed in the RfC - maybe someone could summarise from that and answer the questions here (or indicate that they were not, after all, addressed at the RfC)? I lost track of the RfC towards the end - CBM has provided a diff to the proposed change to bot policy, and it seems this gained approval (is that right, CBM?). What I think was not addressed there was grandfathering in the currently running admin scripts and bots, as listed on the talk page of the RfC (someone else mentioned this list above, but please note that it may not be comprehensive). Was anything discussed about grandfathering in the existing admin bots? Carcharoth (talk) 06:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by WJBscribe

Like many, my practice has been to turn a blind eye to admin bots unless they cause problems. A script that is outside policy but beneficial to Wikipedia is not going to keep me awake at night. To my knowledge, the only administrator who currently causes disruption to Wikipedia through high speed automated admin actions is MZMcBride - see:

These issues have been raised in a current case to which MZMcBride's conduct as an administrator is being considered - Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sarah Palin protection wheel war. If these issues can be handled as part of that case, then I don't think a separate one is needed at this point.

I operate RedirectCleanupBot, a bot approved by the community to delete broken redirects. I have however been considering surrendering the bot and admin flags this account possesses. Put simply, the unapproved scripts being run directly on admin accounts are faster (the community specifically requested RedirectCleanupBot allow a chance for redirects to be fixed/targets undeleted before deleting them) and delete a greater range of broken redirects (not only those containing one revision), leaving very little for the approved bot to do. In my opinion, RedirectCleanupBot is superior as it links to the target of the broken redirect in its deletion summary and operates within the criteria laid down in community discussion. However, it is beginning to feel rather pointless running an adminbot as a token "approved" one, when most of the deletions the bot could perform are in fact done by another account. If the bot is to be merely a beard for what is actually happening, I am not comfortable continuing to operate it. WJBscribe (talk) 12:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remark by Anonymous Dissident

The matter that underlies the premise of this request falls outside of the scope of the same request. The non-following of policy is merely one dimension in the issue regarding adminbot usage. It is the issue as a whole that requires conversational focus, as it were, rather than this "miscarriage of policy" face of it. The fact is that there is a disparity in the community as to where Wikipedia stands in regards to the use of automated scripts on admin accounts. Filing arbitration requests complaining about the disregarding of policy is not useful when policy is so unclear and so smothered in a latent but ever-present debacle that has been ongoing for many months, if not years. Instead of beating around the bush aiming to make sure policy as it is written is executed, we should instead work towards the clarification of this policy, towards the resolving of a long-standing issue that is the catalyst for the problems themselves. In addition, the lack of community consensus in this area render this request for arbitration inherently void, because action of any kind can hardly be taken when there is such sketchy foundations to base any such action upon. —Anonymous DissidentTalk 15:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphim Whip below: adding a line about admins being allowed bots is an intriguing idea, but doesn't account for the ~1600 admins who were promoted by the community without this consideration. —Anonymous DissidentTalk 16:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Seraphim Whipp

Strangely, I find myself agreeing with part of the sentiment, that admins are allowed to run unapproved bots but editors are not. This kind of special treatment doesn't help with the idea that some editors have of admins. We need to define in RfA that by granting an editor trust to use +1 mop, we approve of them running a bot. If we can get this idea going, it would allow for greater transparency about admin bots. However, I don't think this is an issue for arbitration, but rather an issue for the community to form consensus on. Seraphim♥Whipp 21:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chris

This case is premature, there is currently discusion going on at WT:BOT about the approval of adminbots. I suggest every one here should go and look at it, point out the flaws in the proposed policy and try to help fix them. If not we may just end up with rfa for admin bots (i.e. It doesn't work but it's the best process we've got) --Chris 01:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/2/0/3)

  • I haven't even really started formulating my views on the issues underlying this request, but I would appreciate more detail on whether there are any specific problems associated with these various actual or alleged adminbots, as opposed to a purely procedural or policy issue. I'm not belittling policy or procedure bu any means, but this issue would have a heightened degree of seriousness if the bots in question are doing something incorrect or controversial (compare, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Marudubshinki; Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand), as opposed to simply being arguably procedurally unauthorized. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Perhaps I'm reading poorly here, but I don't see what we're being asked to adjudicate here. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reject. Discuss, discuss, discuss and form consensus about how to approve and use the bots. I see no user conduct issue needing review by the Committee. (And please do not give us a case by ill thought out block wheelwars on the adminbots.) FloNight♥♥♥ 22:19, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is being asked here could be categorized as a "divisive matter between admins". Some admins feel that common agreement on bots using admin tools should be applied, due to the risks involved and need to be sure what's going on given the trust bots require. Others feel that the bots identified as using admin tools in this way are proven and aren't being a problem so this would be pointless to require compliance ("wonkage"). Both views do have strong merits. I would like to refer some very specific questions back to community discussion, because the issue here is more that a good consensus hasn't been formed on some aspects:
  1. When should an automated process or script using admin tools need to get communal approval of code and operation? (What's the baseline beyond which those become appropriate)
  2. Do the existing known admin bots and scripts meet those requirements or some form of "proven okay by history of usage"? (If so, then no problem with them)
  3. Should modifications and new bots and scripts always be checked, or only sometimes? (If the latter, under what circumstances or what baseline)
  4. A user is given admin tools on trust of their judgement. But an admin who writes a bot or script that uses their tools, is asking for additional trust in 1/ their coding and bot design that are not tested at RFA, and in 2/ how they codify often-flexible matters to a strict set of rules, and which (per WP:BOT#Bot usage, a policy) may 3/ require a higher standard due to its higher speed and more automated nature. Should that in turn require some kind of explicit communal or bot-writer endorsement, or when should that extra trust simply be assumed given?
These are not general adminbot questions, or questions about definitions. They are very exact questions that some kind of decisions need to be made upon. Reach a consensus (or find a minimum/baseline that consensus can agree upon) on those four, then if there is still a problem, come back. FT2 (Talk | email) 01:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reject as filed: per the arbitration policy, the Committee doesn't do advisory opinions. But if I can indulge in advising everyone of my opinion: the position for some time has been that anyone who chooses to run a bot or script on their personal account (or a non-bot-flagged separate account) is personally responsible for the edits that the bot or script makes, as if they had made them themselves. If there are actual instances of misuse of tools then a case (or cases) should be brought on that basis. --bainer (talk) 02:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clarifications and other requests

Place requests related to amendments of prior cases, appeals, and clarifications on this page. If the case is ongoing, please use the relevant talk page. Requests for enforcement of past cases should be made at Arbitration enforcement. Requests to clarify general Arbitration matters should be made on the Talk page. To create a new request for arbitration, please go to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. Place new requests at the top. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/How-to other requests


Current requests

Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/John Buscema

Involved users
Evidence and links

Statement by Scott Free

Having been banned from editing said article, while maintaining the freedom to edit the article's talk page - are there any arbcom restrictions that prevent me from doing archive maintenance on said talk page? My reasons for wanting to do so are:

There was a lot of old discussion threads starting to accumulate - I archived them (respecting the pre-existing, consensused archiving structure), keeping the most recent thread- I don't see the problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJohn_Buscema&diff=237152156&oldid=236990123

It was alledged that I was doing so, I gather, in bad faith - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rlevse#John_Buscema

As explained above, that wasn't my intention, and in fact, no proof of such allegations were provided. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rlevse#No_one.2C_banned_or_otherwise.2C_should_be_removing_legit_talk_page_edits

I was blocked for this, although the administrator's interpretation that I removed legit talk page edits is, I believe, incorrect. I bring this to Arbcom clarification because I think that this is more a question of arbcom ruling interpretation than one of conduct issues to the extent that I have been able to demonstrate that my archiving edits were done with reasonable respect to existing consensus and archiving guidelines with a willingness to civilly discuss any differences of opinion on the matter.

--Scott Free (talk) 00:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS - Here's the page previous to my archiving - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:John_Buscema&oldid=231305105

Here's how I archived it - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:John_Buscema&oldid=236917151

--Scott Free (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may seem lame to people constantly involved in controversial socio-political disputes with heavy policy violations - However, I do believe the question is genuine - there's some uncertainty as to the question of where archiving stands in the parties' rights to edit the talk page. It would take just as much time to answer the question than to explain why one doesn't feel inclined to. I.E. it's not that the question can't be worked out, it's just that one party genuinely feels that archiving isn't allowed according to the arbitration decision.

In general, part of the problem is that there's a lack of understanding of the arbitration process and certain guidelines on both sides - I don't feel that strongly about archiving per se - asking someone else to do it is probably impractical as I think the situation has scared everyone away and there are no active editors on the article beside the two parties.

In general if a party feels that a request is beneath their dignity, that's cool by me, just don't respond to it - let the people who have a sincere motivation to help out with this question address it, no rush.

--Scott Free (talk) 01:43, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

  •  Question: Would the Committee like this thread removed and archived, what with the overwhelmingly negative response to date?
    Standing by for direction, Anthøny 18:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It needs to stay here long enough so the party who made the request has a chance to read the responses. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Archiving the talk page is allowed, but don't squabble over it. What the arbs are essentially saying is that if you two can't even get along regarding the talk page, there are serious problems here. You two have been at each other for at least a year now and if you can't resolve your differences very quickly, a complete ban for both of you from the article AND its talk page may be in order.RlevseTalk 16:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I would say 'this is lame'. Regardless of the intentions of anyone, prevention is better than cure. There's no bureaucracy in leaving a request at the bottom of the talk page asking for archiving old discussions. fayssal / Wiki me up® 01:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lame, per FayssalF. Err on the side of non-annoyance. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per FayssalF and Jpgordon. If the editors on this non-controversial article can't even agree about how to archive the talkpage without edit-warring and blocks, the situation has become ridiculous. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Best to move on past this as the other arbs say. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Gazimoff

I am requesting clarification from Arbcomm regarding the case above. This discussion may appear to be slightly premature, but I feel that it is appropriate to raise a request for clarification in order to minimise the potential for further disruption. TTN has been involved in two Arbcomm cases relating to content disputes. As a result of those cases, TTN has been subject to the following remedies.

The remedy from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters stated the following:

  • The parties are urged to work collaboratively and constructively with the broader community and the editors committed to working on the articles in question to develop and implement a generally acceptable approach to resolving the underlying content dispute.

The remedy from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2 stated the following:

  • TTN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is prohibited for six months from making any edit to an article or project page related to a television episode or character that substantially amounts to a merge, redirect, deletion, or request for any of the preceding, to be interpreted broadly. He is free to contribute on the talk pages or to comment on any AfD, RfD, DRV, or similar discussion initiated by another editor, as appropriate. Should he violate this restriction, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.
  • The parties are instructed to cease engaging in editorial conflict and to work collaboratively to develop a generally accepted and applicable approach to the articles in question. They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute

TTN was since blocked twice for violating these restrictions as recorded here The restriction placed upon him lapsed without extension on September 10th, 2008. Since that date, TTN has created a high number of deletion discussions. The concern here is not about the articles, templates and so on being listed for deletion. It is more about the high volume of content being listed for deletion in a short space of time only days after a lapsed editing restriction prohibiting this behaviour. Such action can potentialy stretch any cleanup team a wikiproject may have over a large number of articles, potentially reducing the quality of debate that can occur and leaving TTN open to criticisms of working against the wikiprojects involved.

The requests for clarification are as follows:

I appreciate that Arbcomm are limited in resource, and hope that by presenting this concern early and cleanly, clarification can be reached with minimal impact on the project.

See also related discussion

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#TTN nominating large numbers of pages for deletion (link contributed by Coppertwig (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Statement by GRBerry

Related WP:AE threads are currently at (reverse chronological order):

  1. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#Violation of TTN's restriction?
  2. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive26#Eusebeus
  3. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive22#Eusebeus still edit-warring over TV episode articles (partial copy also in archive 21)
  4. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive21#TTN and Sonic the Hedgehog characters
  5. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive20#Unreasonably broad interpretation
  6. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive20#User:TTN
  7. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive20#TTN and notability tagging?
  8. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive20#And so it begins again

There have also been plenty of AN, ANI, et cetera threads involving many parties. I conclude that remedy #2 "The parties are instructed to cease engaging in editorial conflict and to work collaboratively to develop a generally accepted and applicable approach to the articles in question. They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute." has failed. GRBerry 18:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, the threads with Eusebeus's names in them were not selected for inclusion because I have any concerns about his actions, they were included to help the committee realize that the "all get together and sing Kumbaya" recomendation of remedy is not working and not going to work. In the archive 26 thread, DGG observed "The disputed cases are about minor characters in the most important fictional works, such as plays by Shakespeare, and even major characters in relatively unimportant works." No consensus is going to form that draws a hard and fast line with no grey zone ("no character articles" or "if the work can have an article, every character can have there own article" are both thoroughly rejected by the community. So long as there is a grey zone, there will be disagreements and need for community discussion. The committee should only make sure that reasonable conduct bounds are drawn and enforced for that discussion. GRBerry 03:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by sgeureka

One way to look at it: TTN is quickly destroying the 'pedia with his quick AfDs. Do something about it.

Another way to look at it: Crappy fiction articles get created (in good faith) faster than they can be dealt with through what-some-would-label "recommended" channels. Cleanup templates get ignored for months (usually because the articles cannot be improved), merge proposals for popular yet crappy articles often get shot down through local fan consensus or take forever (by which time tons of new crappy articles have been created), and bold redirects or bold mergers for popular yet crappy articles get reverted and have demonstratedly already led to severe arbcom restrictions when someone tried to enforce to leave the redirects in place. AfDs however, especially for long-time cleanup-tagged articles, get quick results with community consensus. Not perfect but accomplishes the goal in the absense of other workable solutions.

Summa summarum: Leave dedicated editors at least one tool to keep up with the desperately needed cleanup. Or: fight the source of the problem (creation of crappy and unimprovable articles), not the symptom (AfDs). – sgeureka tc 19:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by A Man In Black

Bearing in mind where my obvious biases are, what's the harm in a bunch of AFDs of articles that will all either be deleted or merged? TTN was censured for edit warring, not cleanup. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fut.Perf

TTN is right. Censoring him was wrong from the start. It really is as simple as that. Fut.Perf. 20:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DGG (talk)

Based on a comment by TTN on my talk page, [12], I suggested there that the AfDs are being brought deliberately because of TTN's knowledge that they will not be approved at the article talk page. This is essentially the same behavior that the arb com was first asked to address--as it is in essence continuing, with afds showing no previous attempt to discuss, in clear violation of deletion policy, the restriction should be made permanent. There are a great many articles needing redirection , merge, or deletion. There are are a great many other editors to propose them. DGG (talk) 21:27, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by PhilKnight - responding to DGG

In situations where an episode or character article doesn't comply with notability guidelines, the article talk page is invariably dominated by editors who are vehemently opposed to any merge, let alone deletion. The problem is one of a local consensus attempting to override policy and guidelines. The obvious solution is to take the article to AfD. Accordingly, what DGG describes as a "clear violation of deletion policy" is normal practice for this topic area. Also, looking at WP:DELETION, there doesn't appear to be any requirement to start discussion before nominating the article. Obviously, it's good practice to notify the article creator, and perhaps even some of the other editors, however for deletion (as opposed to deletion review), I can't see any requirement for prior discussion.

Statement by Protonk

So long as non-community enforced pathways for dealing with marginal and sub-marginal fictional articles result in intractable stalemates and so long as the community cannot agree on a daughter notability guideline to deal clearly and appropriately with these articles, we will have situations like this. AfD is a perfectly acceptable route for dealing with articles which do not meet our inclusion guidelines. Since we have no real agreed upon guidelines that are binding concerning lists of characters, episodes and other daughter articles, AfD may be the preferred route. We may wish, in an abstract sense, that editors discussed improvement, then proposed mergers, then discussed why the merger didn't gain consensus, then prod, then nominate for deletion, but any editor who learns from past experiences will be tempted to skip steps. I see this as a policy issue that needs to be worked out by the community. We don't have an agreed upon way to treat characters and episodes (as it were), so we have problems like this. Fix that policy issue and we have fixed most of the problem.

Statement by User:Randomran

We need to assume good faith, rather than assuming that TTN is somehow on a vengeful mission after being locked away for 6 months. TTN got himself in trouble when he WP:BOLDly redirected pages en masse. He's learned his lesson, and is now soliciting the feedback of neutral Wikipedians in AFD. "AfDs are a place for rational discussion of whether an article is able to meet Wikipedia’s article guidelines and policies." I do not echo his support for deletion in each and every case, but he's using the process as it is designed. Anything else is a discussion of actual content: discussions that TTN has initiated, and cannot unilaterally decide. That's how Wikipedia works.

That said, I might advise TTN that he could generate more good will by nominating AFDs at more scattered intervals. He hasn't broken any policy, consensus, or arbitration decision. But this does needlessly inflame the inclusionists. The WP:DEADLINE applies as much to clean-up as it does to anything else: what's your hurry? Randomran (talk) 01:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RyanGerbil10

So User:X was told not to do Y for Z period of time, X did not do Y until after Z (as asked), and now we're back at ArbCom? Seems to defeat the purpose if you ask me. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 19:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Norse Am Legend

Anyone's allowed to make statements here, right? What TTN is doing is similar to a police officer strongly and swiftly enforcing the law on any potential criminal that he sees or hears of. Is this acting in good faith? Possibly. Is he doing anything technically wrong? Apparently not. However, when every car in a five mile radius has a ticket on the windshield and the local courthouse is filled to the brim with people paying fines and undergoing trials, many people start to get really annoyed. Going on deletion crusades to "fully purge the video game and anime and manga character categories" and the like isn't something that should be fully endorsed without question - Norse Am Legend (talk) 02:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Comment, I'm aware of this request. I've briefly looked into the situation. I'm not seeing a problem that needs Committee action at this time. The Community needs to deal with the content policy issues involved, not ArbCom. I do not see any user conduct that approaches disruption. I urge all involved parties to listen to the input of other users. Before giving input to other users or taking an action, try putting yourself in the other persons shoes and thinking about how what you do and say will be received. Be understanding that other people have different views, and that they want what is best for Wikipedia, the same as you do. FloNight♥♥♥ 18:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • To extend a bit on what FloNight has already said... A simpler approach would be AfD-listing a few articles (a dozen or less?) and wait and see what would be the outcome. You can then, go on from there either way... stop and discuss the whole issue or list the rest. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 01:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Privatemusings

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by NonvocalScream (talk)

Can you amend this remedy so that this action can be permissible. At this time, the mentors can not do what they are doing, because PM was not editing a biography, he was editing AN, and a subject totally outside biographies?

They cite a remedy for which they can not apply here. Thank you, NonvocalScream (talk) 01:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • John: Nothing controversial here... just that in order to apply what you applied, the case //must// be amended. NonvocalScream (talk) 01:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • John: You have cited a remedy that was not applicable, how do you expect Arbcom to enforce it this way? It needs clarified or amended, no matter if all four of you agreed, AC needs to agree as well. This is not the precedent we set, mentors do not = arbcom. NonvocalScream (talk) 02:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I withdraw this request for amendment with the understanding that the mentorship extension at dissonance with the remedy, mutually agreed on between the four, and that the extension is broader in scope than what the Committee mandated and therefore the original enforceable mentorship ends at the unextended (pre extension expiration is still valid) time. NonvocalScream (talk) 03:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • PM: Kindof sortof? But can you answer more fully, did the mentor group have informed consent, or not? NonvocalScream (talk) 01:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Based on this answer I am under the impression that the mentorship extension occurred outside the mandate. My motion remains withdrawn with my earlier opinion on the dissonance. Whether or not the Arbitration Committee modifies the remedy to fit this extension, are allows the extension to expire naturally will be completely up to the other party, mentors and arbitrators. I will ask that any further agreements of this nature take place on the wiki before such announcements of extensions take place. This type of action should be on the wiki. Absent any modification, I will clear the extension from the arbitration case page Log of blocks and bans in a few days time. NonvocalScream (talk) 02:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • JV: No threats, just that you really can't do things in accordance with a remedy, if it is not really in accordance with a remedy. Surely my correcting the AC page will not disrupt your intentions. A quick scan of AN reveals that I was not the only one confused at this odd extension. As for structural damage - do you seriously think that this has damaged a mentoring relationship? You are mentors, not arbiters. So mentor. You did this extension on odd grounds, not me. On wiki actions are open to review. NonvocalScream (talk) 05:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • JV: Very well. Then I will take my hands off. I trust you all - I just want to see this handled well - PM has great potential. NonvocalScream (talk) 06:01, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Flonight: Agree and suggest - "For the purposes of editing success, Privatemusings (talk · contribs) is placed under the mentorship of User:Lar, User:Jayvdb, and User:Durova. The mentorship will expire after ninety days from acceptance of this motion. Mentorship arrangements may be extended at the descretion of the mentors." This is my suggestion. NonvocalScream (talk) 17:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by John Vandenberg

I am just recently online, and have only just now seen an email from Lar informing me that there has been a request at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Privatemusings#Mentoring notices for clarification by the mentors and/or privatemusings.

NonvocalScream, that is based on your opinion of how the arbcom remedy was amended last time, and without an appreciation of how it is being applied. If you are right, and the mentoring arrangements have gone beyond the arbcom definition, and someone like you requires that we explicitly have arbcom approval for every detail of the mentoring, then we would have come to arbcom to seek their advice. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay. In order to re-assess properly whether the mentorship has been operating within the scope of the arbcom remedy, I have wanted to review the recent rfar clarification, and of course needed to review the related email discussions from the last month.

I think I speak for all the mentors that we have understood the arbcom remedy prefix "soley for the matter of editing biographies of living persons" as an indication that that is the outstanding set of problems that arbcom still sees the need to remedy, and also as a limitation on the remit of the mentorship.

So, how does this Moulton issue fit within the scope given to the mentorship? As Durova mentions, at the beginning of the mentoring arrangement, Lar proposed an overall strategy consisting of three stages, one for each month. One of the mentoring arrangements was that for the first month privatemusings was to alert the mentors in advance of any posts that are broadly interpreted as "what ArbCom was worried about", and waits for the mentors give an appraisal of the intended post. This is in context of three or four arbs initially commenting harshly on the "general lack of clue" shown by edits like this one made a few days prior to requesting the prior restrictions being lifted. We felt it was necessary for Privatemusings to keep his head down for the first month in order to apply himself to the task at hand.

At the three months, we as mentors need to be able to say that he has addressed the BLP problem, and we cant do that if he is preferring to spend his wiki-time wading into every drama he can find, or worse yet, initiating them like he did with this Moulton unblock request. Privatemusings hasnt kept his end of the bargain, resulting in only 30 rather simple content edits over the last month. As a result, the mentors have decided that a much more focused approach is needed to ensure he undertakes actual editing during this three month period. We need evidence of good editing rather than the lack of bad evidence. He needs to get a better appreciation for the need for good editing practises, in order to obtain a release from the shadow over his head. If he isnt going to focus on serious editing in the three months, I dont feel right letting the mentorship continue for two more months as a charade.

We have decided on the basics of the new more focused approach for the coming month, however we are waiting on privatemusings to give us some thoughts on the specifics and his preferences. John Vandenberg (chat) 04:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. Also part of the mentoring arrangement was that the clock being reset if he didnt stick to the three stage plan. John Vandenberg (chat) 04:19, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@WAS 4.250, I agree wholeheartedly with the message Create. We are hoping that privatemusings does more of that in the coming months. The mentorship arrangement doesnt not require that he seek our permission to do that he wants; otoh, it does attempt to curtail his tendency to treat this as a free speech project. If he wants representation, for himself or for others, that comes at a price: free content. As another example, refer to User:Privatemusings/A walk on a path in a garden#Talk:Giovanni di Stefano, where Privatemusings waxed lyrical whilst proposing to edit an article that the arbitrator Newyorkbrad explicitly told Privatemusings to steer clear of in the last clarification discussion. I have privately told him that his involvement in the Wikiversity project is a good thing, but warned him to ensure that his edits there over the duration of this mentoring stage are of the kind that all arbcom members will decide are constructive and well intended, 'cause the committee members are sure to look. The three months of mentoring is in vain if his mentors do not unanimously agree that the problems identified in the last arbcom case appear to be able to put to bed safely, or if the arbcom members review his contributions over this period and come to the view that the problems remain, that he has hasnt done much here. John Vandenberg (chat) 11:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@Troikoalogo, the notice was public, and hit AN, as it was a unanimous agreement of the mentors that in the last month, privatemusings had not cut the mustard. If we hadnt disclosed the "clock reset" publicly, two months from now we would have had people wondering why we hadnt notified everyone publicly at this stage. It seems like the only way to have streamlined this would have been to ask Arbcom to reset the clock instead of doing it ourselves. We live and learn. p.s. Privatemusings wished, and the committee agreed, to give me this plastic sheriff's badge.  :-) He is welcome to have it back if he likes. John Vandenberg (chat) 11:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@NonvocalScream, your involvement in this has caused more complication and confusion than it has solved. You brought the matter to arbcom, so please dont complicate things further by boldy clerking the matter based on your "impressions" - we can do without that. As an update, privatemusings has now emailed the mentors so the train is back on the track. Mentoring discussion to check for structural damage is now getting underway, but may be protracted due to timezones and the heightened tension caused by this also being on arbcoms desk. John Vandenberg (chat) 04:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@Yes, it definitely derailed what the mentors unanimously considered to be the right next step, and it prevented privatemusings from comfortably letting us know what he thought the (different) direction he thought it should take. We are not trying to be arbitrators, but if we dont undertake to mentor properly, the arbitrators will be less likely to let others out of their bonds early onto the path to enlightenment. I can see why you consider this to be an unapproved extension of the remedy, but at the time it seemed plain that privatemusings was in full knowledge of this when it was being discussed, and had spectacularly forgotten more recently and when he had to be reminded of it at User:Privatemusings/A walk on a path in a garden#Talk:Giovanni di Stefano. I agree that the mentoring plan should have been onwiki a long time ago, and sent to arbcom-l formally to ensure they were 100% happy with it. But those things didnt happen, out of laziness and the lack of foresight, and we find ourselves here. I dont mind if you go remove the notice from the arbcom page, but I dont see why it is necessary. There are clerks who can do that. It would be great if you let us untangle it, or hand it over to arbcom to untangle. John Vandenberg (chat) 05:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question from Avruch

Doesn't the remedy state "solely for the purpose of editing biographies of living people" or something to that effect? If the mentorship agreement stipulates a wider area of supervision, it has nothing to do with the Arbitration Committee. Also, and importantly, this seems premature. Privatemusings hasn't had the opportunity to make his view known on that page.

Noting Durova's post below, it seems likely that Privatemusings agreed to the extension. Nonvocalscream - in the future, it might be good sense to contact the participants involved before posting a clarification request in a situation where you do not have all the relevant facts. Avruch T 02:24, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Durova

John is correct: Lar's proposal allowed discretionary extension within the realm, broadly defined that could reasonably be considered what arbcom was worried about. All parties agreed that extension was appropriate, including Privatemusings.

A summary of the matter is that Privatemusings has a track record of intervening in high tension areas in a manner which--although well intentioned--tends to consume administrative attention. Editors who are successful participants in Wikipedia namespace have usually acquired an intuitive grasp of site dynamics from article building. We are in agreement that Privatemusings would benefit from more mainspace editing experience, preferably sustained attention to building a single biography article. Our goal is a guided approach that would leave Privatemusings well equipped to function independently at the end of the mentorship term. A review of the first month led to the conclusion that not enough progress had been made yet.

Request withdrawal of this motion. We aim to reduce onsite drama, not increase it, and the decision was reached with unanimous agreement. DurovaCharge! 01:57, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Dan: assume good faith is policy. Before attempting to attribute a negative motivation, an appropriate prelude would be consultation with any of the parties or at least a review of the editor's contributions. Privatemusings has averaged approximately one mainspace edit per day since mentorship began, mostly minor wikignome work. It is our opinion that two more months' mentorship at this level would be insufficient. Editors who take on the site's hot button disputes, sensitive BLPs, etc. and make difficult situations better are usually people who bring experience from thousands of mainspace edits--often having shepherded articles from stub-class to GA or FA. The concern is that PM's interest in resolving such situations, unless tempered by better field experience, runs a likelihood of missteps that would ultimately lead either the community or the Committee to a pragmatic assessment of his productivity as an editor v. the scarce administrative time consumed by his attempts to assist in sensitive areas. We, the mentors, wish him success and have agreed upon this course of action with his consent. DurovaCharge! 03:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Nonvocal Scream: mentorship is by its nature a consensual relationship. Declared or undeclared, mandated or voluntary--it cannot be effective without the consent and active participation of all parties. It works best in an environment of trust and goodwill. Privatemusings's best interests ought to be our driving concern, not the establishment of formal statements about the legitimacy of this or that adjustment. Good mentoring responds naturally to changes in circumstance. I think I speak for all the mentors here in saying it would be much more constructive to engage us in dialog if such serious concern arises again about our mutual choices, rather than initiating preemptive formal motions that--even at best--must consume energies better spent on mentoring itself. DurovaCharge! 05:37, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dtobias

I'm not particularly pleased with what can be seen as a punitive action against somebody for the sole reason of their sticking their neck out with a WikiPolitical opinion that others find politically incorrect. *Dan T.* (talk) 03:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Lar

To Dan: I agree 100% with you, I'm not at all about punitive actions. However this action is not punitive. Per Durova, we're (by mutual agreement, including that of Privatemusings himself) taking him on a path to enlightenment. That includes aiding PM in improving situational awareness about what's prudent and what isn't. A mentorship does after all include some actual learning by the mentoree or else it's not successful. We probably should post the email that outlines our mutually agreed upon approach, though. I note that the three of us are not always on the same side (of anything) and yet we mutually agree PM acted imprudently here. Mentorships work best when the elbows of the mentors aren't jiggled. Agree with Durova that this motion is ill advised and should be shelved. NVS no doubt knows better now, although I think he meant well. ++Lar: t/c 03:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To NVS: A clarification: ArbCom does not enforce remedies. We, the collective users of the site, do. If this mentorship fails (and I really hope it does not... we did not do this reset because we want failure, we did it because we want success!) it will be up to us (1500 admins, millions of users) all to enforce the rest of this decision. ++Lar: t/c 04:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For reference: User:Privatemusings/A_walk_on_a_path_in_a_garden/A_threefold_path_to_enlightenment (a subpage of where the article specific discussions have been held) This process was agreed to in advance via email. Perhaps it should have been documented on-wiki rather than privately, but privately seemed a good approach at the time for "respect for the individual" reasons. ++Lar: t/c 14:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:WAS 4.250

I would just like to reflect here on how far off the initial path we have come. The free culture movement began with copy left software and now has Wikipedia as its most public example. The opposite of free culture is called in the movement "permission culture". Stop asking permission. Create. WAS 4.250 (talk) 08:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If PM wants to enter into a private agreement to be mentored in orange-eating ((c) fayssal - below) then that's his affair. But when his orange-eating regime is then posted in large letters on government buildings as if it were a wanted poster, then the citizens are entitle to ask "WTF?".

If a private agreement, why was this posted on arbcom enforcement (Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Privatemusings#Privatemusings_placed_under_mentorship)? And why did it need posted to AN [13] as if it were a sanction for PM's postings about Moulton's block. A private agreement, should be a private agreement, and a matter for e-mail and talk pages. The effect of the way this has been handled is at variance with Durova's stated intent "to reduce onsite drama, not increase it" - it looks official and putative and has an obvious chilling effect.

The intention may be good, the mentorship unobjectionable, but I still think that some people have let the plastic sheriffs' badges go to their heads. --Troikoalogo (talk) 08:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Privatemusings

In a few hours time, barring objections, I'll post all the email correspondence to subpage in my mentoring area (this has been discussed a bit between the four of us, and my reading is that permission has been clearly granted - but it's better to be safe than sorry! In fact, I'd say some commentators thus far have probably been a bit 'hasty'. I don't think I agree with some that's been said, and I'll write stuff up in a bit. :-) Privatemusings (talk) 20:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I won't post the email correspondence, because I'd misunderstood, and I don't have permission. I'd like to edit unencumbered by an arbcom restriction as soon as possible.
I understand my mentors' worry that my post to AN was impolitic / unwise, and I further understand the point of view that posting controversially can waste resources, is in someways disruptive, and undesirable, though I think it's a rocky road, and by no means fully agree.
I need to talk through more fully the perspectives that my mentoring programme has been disappointing, or that I haven't kept my end of the bargain, because I don't really understand them yet (I've actually been really pleased and proud with what I've been up to!)
there may be merit in arb.s clarifying how they see the 90days working from their perspective (per Nonvoc's final point above), and if there's any stuff folk want to chat about, swing by my talk page or drop me an email any time. Privatemusings (talk) 23:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)although I think an eggshell ballet may work out better for me than making omelets! - and better yet! - go write an article :-)[reply]
ps. just 'cos it might actually be relevant, I should note that I'm heading out, likely for at least 24 hours, now :-) Privatemusings (talk) 23:34, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@bainer - the answer is kinda sorta... you can see the correspondence here... I should have taken the time to respond more substantially to the tension between the arb mandate and the mentoring terms previously, and I really think that any miscommunication is my fault - hopefully we're moving on now on a good foot :-) I certainly wish to edit unencumbered by an arbcom restriction as soon as possible. :-) Privatemusings (talk) 01:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Tom harrison

Maybe the way we can avoid drama is to keep most of our edits in article space. Tom Harrison Talk 21:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gladys J Cortez

When I saw the addition of the "mentoring extension" notice at the bottom of the "Moulton unblock" thread, it seemed to me, by the placement and the wording, that the extension was caused by Privatemusings' request for the unblock of a controversial user. Now, obviously from what's been said since, that's a complete misread of the circumstances--but it's also clear that I wasn't the only one who misread it that way. Had the notice of mentorship been placed somewhere less-proximate to the Moulton thread, I wonder if this confusion and the resulting drama might not have been avoided. Just an opinion, anyway...Gladys J Cortez 21:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

Regarding NVS' stated intention to clear the extension from the logs of the arb case, I encourage the arbs to address this issue in their ruling. RlevseTalk 09:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • If Privatemusings entered into a mentorship agreement that was broader in scope than what the Committee mandated, then as Avruch says, that is his business, not the Committee's. That then begs the question of what did Privatemusings agree to? I await his input here before saying anything more. --bainer (talk) 03:11, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so I gather these are the terms that the mentors and PM arranged. It purports to create a mentorship scheme applying to two things, firstly any proposed edits to BLPs, and secondly "any posts, broadly construed, that might fit into 'what ArbCom was worried about' (cases, policy and the like)". It also provides for the mentors to reset the process. This goes beyond what was mandated by the motion. What was mandated was mentorshop "[s]olely for the matter of editing [BLPs]" (emphasis added). Further, the motion provided for expiry in ninety days "[i]f no issues arise"; this was not particularly clear, but it should be understood to mean that the Committee can extend the mentorship if issues arise.
Of course, as has been said PM and his mentors are free to agree to terms of mentorship that go beyond what the Committee mandated, and if they wish to do so then I wish them all the best. However, from the circumstances, I do not think that is what has happened here; I believe that PM and his mentors have constructed terms on a misapprehension about the meaning of the motion. The mandated mentorship is limited "[s]olely for the matter of editing [BLPs]", and does not extend to "cases, policy and the like". If we had intended that we would have said so.
I think now PM and his mentors need to work out some terms once more with the understanding that the mentorship mandated by the Committee extends only to editing BLPs and is subject to review by us at the end of the ninety days. --bainer (talk) 11:56, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apologies to Privatemusing and NVS if my comment would sound inappropriate but I am sure you would understand that it is meant to clarify some interesting issues related to drama. The drama goes this way... Once upon a time, there was someone who ate chocolate more than his body could afford, so the doctors advised his parents to keep monitoring his chocolate diet until the body becomes able to fathom and get adapted to some degree of chocolate consumption. Recently, he started eating oranges (in a normal way - no exaggeration yet) and immediately their neighbors went asking doctors to clarify if eating oranges is permissible. fayssal / Wiki me up® 06:33, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per Thebainer, this was a voluntarily entered into agreement. Having in effect delegated to the mentors the responsibility of overlooking Privatemusings' contributions it would not be right to supervise them excessively in so doing. So I'm not inclined to intervene; however I would say this. Suppose (for the sake of argument, I'm not saying this is something he would actually do) Privatemusings had gone blanking large sections of history articles that had nothing to do with living people. That would be disruptive; is it argued that the mentors must ignore it because it is not about BLPs? I don't think that's reasonable. Finally, logs of blocks and bans should be kept up to date and not blanked unless authorised by the committee or its clerks. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support John, Durova, and Lar's approach to handling this mentorship. In general a mentor's close working relationship with their trainee, even during a focused one such as this one, necessitates them keeping an eye on other aspects of their trainee's contributions. In this situation in particular, getting to the root of the problem is important if PM is going to succeed as an editor on Wikipedia. While this mentorship was formed to focus on the removal of the BLP restriction, the other concerns identified in Privatemusings case indicate that simply educating about the BLP policy and monitoring PM's contributions is most likely not going to achieve the enlightenment needed to succeed in editing BLPs. For mentorships to succeed, a broader approach is often needed, and I think John, Lar, and Durova understood that going into the situation. For example, a discussion about good communication methods and then coaching a trainee in ways to achieve their desired goals through good communication is appropriate during most mentorships and is key to the success of this one. Based on my view about mentorships, I see no need for us to alter the wording of the motion, but if others disagree then I think we need to expand the wording to give them free reign to do what is needed to achieve the best outcome. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:08, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I trust all the mentors here, individually and even more so as a group, and see no need to change the wording of the mentorship agreement. And, no, no messing with logs of blocks and bans. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]