Arbitration Committee proceedings

Request name	Motions	Initiated	Votes
Designating Sri Lanka as a contentious topic	Motions	10 April 2024	0/0/0

[edit]

Open cases

Case name	Links	Evidence due	Prop. Dec. due
Venezuelan politics	(t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t)	20 Apr 2024	04 May 2024
~~Mzajac~~	(t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t)	—	Case suspended

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Recently closed cases (Past cases)

Case name	Closed
Conflict of interest management	13 Apr 2024

Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing	Motion	(orig. case)	27 February 2024
Amendment request: Armenia-Azerbaijan 3	Motion	(orig. case)	18 April 2024
Amendment request: Skepticism and coordinated editing	Motion	(orig. case)	16 April 2024

Arbitrator motions

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Requests for amendment

Use this section:

To request changes to remedies or enforcement provisions, for example to make them stronger or deal with unforeseen problems.
To request lifting of an existing Arbitration sanction that is no longer needed (banned users may email the Ban Appeals Subcommittee directly)

How to file a request (please use this format!):

Go to this request template, and copy the text in the box at the bottom of the page.
Click here to edit the amendment subpage, and paste the template immediately below this box and above any other outstanding requests.
Using the format provided by the template, try to show exactly what you want amended and state your reasoning for the change in 1000 words or fewer, citing supporting diffs where necessary. Although it should be kept short, you may add to your statement in future if needed as the word limit is not rigidly enforced. List any other users affected or involved. Sign your statement with ~~~~.
If your request will affect or involve other users, you must notify each involved person on their user talk page. Return to your request and provide diffs showing that other involved users have been notified in the section provided for notification.

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It may be to your advantage to paste the template into your user space or use an off-line text editor to compose your request before posting it here. The main Requests for arbitration page is not the place to work on rough drafts.
Arbitrators or Clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.
Requests that do not clearly state the following will be removed by Arbitrators or Clerks without comment:
1. The name of the case to be amended (which should be linked in the request header),
2. The clause(s) to be modified, referenced by number or section title as presented in the Final Decision,
3. The desired modifications to the aforementioned clause(s), and
4. A rationale for the change(s) of no more than 1000 words.
Requests from banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Committee.
Only Arbitrators and Clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request unless you are one of those individuals.

Request to amend prior case: Russavia-Biophys

Initiated by Biophys (talk) at 15:32, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Russavia-Biophys arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

List of users affected by this amendment

Biophys (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Amendment 1

Biophys topic_banned
Biophys restricted - this is a related remedy that may be enacted after the topic ban

Statement by Biophys

I would like to apologize for contributing to disruption and ask for review and direction at this point, almost six months since the beginning of my topic ban. During this time I was active, edited in allowed areas, avoided conflicts, and tried to deal with problems noted in your findings of fact [1].

What was my problem? I edited 4,000 different articles (and a lot of them are related to my Russian cultural background) and created 250 new pages. Few my edits caused anyone's objections, but I always returned back to the articles where someone reverted my edits to be engaged in prolonged disputes, edit warring and complaints. It came at no surprise that the trouble happened in a difficult area that has been already a subject of numerous sanctions.

To avoid this problem in a future I am going to leave any article to others and edit something else if a dispute can not be quickly resolved by talking and compromising. It is enough to remove an article from my watch list. I did just that during my topic ban. This helped me to make exactly zero reverts that could be interpreted as edit warring during all this time (a few “undo” are fixes of obvious vandalism problems). Here are a few examples of someone recently reverting my edits [2] [3][4],[5],[6], and I walked away from these articles. Yes, I fully realize that every editor had his reason for reverting my edits, event though I happened to disagree with them and explained why [7] [8]. There is nothing wrong with returning later to these articles. The entire point is to avoid creating the conflicts.

If there is something else I must do, please tell. I could not care less about ethnic and territorial disputes, but I may have a bias related to human rights issues, no matter if the victims were Russian [9], German [10] or Korean [11], except that I know Soviet subjects much better. But my edits usually describe mainstream majority views and are referenced to books by the best experts, as in the diffs above.

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Request to amend prior case: Kehrli

Initiated by Kkmurray (talk) at 23:12, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Kehrli arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedy 1.1) Kehrli is banned for one year from articles which relate to m/z.

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

kkmurray (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Nick Y. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator of original case)
kehrli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

Remedy 1.1) Kehrli is banned for one year from articles which relate to m/z and from articles related to Kendrick mass and mass units.

Statement by Kkmurray

There is a dispute regarding WP:OR and WP:NPOV at Kendrick mass and Kendrick (unit) that is a continuation of the dispute previously discussed in the resolved arbitration case Kehrli that involved the mass and unit articles Mass-to-charge ratio, Thomson (unit) and Mass spectrum. User:Kehrli has resumed aggressive POV editing related to mass and unit articles. The locus of discussion for this dispute is Talk:Kendrick_mass.

As in the resolved arbitration case, User:Kehrli has over several months pushed original research and POV in mass and unit articles. He has used the general guidelines documents such as ISO 31, the IUPAC green book and a minority view from a single primary source document [12] to justify POV pushing and original research in mass units. He rejects [13] multiple secondary sources [14] and is not abiding by WP:NPOV, WP:SOURCE and WP:OR in article editing.

As in the past dispute leading to the resolved arbitration case, User:Kehrli has engaged in disruptive activity such as deleting talk page comments [15], inappropriately flagging other users talk page comments.[16][17], merging without consensus.[18], removing page flags during discussion, [19][20][21], WP:PERSONAL [22] and lack of WP:AGF [23][24][25].

Dispute resolution steps so far

This dispute has been discussed extensively for several months (primarily at Talk:Kendrick mass) and has gone through a proposed merge, request for comment, and informal discussions with prior case administrators. The discussion has been useful in establishing the views of the editors and several new scientific references have been found that provide additional facts that shed light on the dispute. Informal discussions with administrators from the prior dispute process have led to further clarification of the situation, [26] It appears that further discussion will not likely be useful as User:Kehrli does not seem willing to compromise. [27]

Specific dispute resolution steps:

Kendrick unit article created December 18, 2009 by User:Kehrli [28]

PROD January 17, 2010 by User:Glenfarclas [29]

dePROD January 17, 2010 by User:Glenfarclas [30]

Move Kendrick unit to Kendrick mass January 25, 2010 by User:Kkmurray [31]

Reverse move and redirect Kendrick mass to Kendrick unit August 17, 2010 by User:Kehrli [32] [33]

Restore Kendrick mass and propose merge from Kendrick unit to Kendrick mass August 17, 2010 by User:Kkmurray [34] [35]

Request for comments from WikiProject Chemistry, WikiProject Mass spectrometry, September 24-27, 2010 by User:Kkmurray [36] [37] [38]

Open RfC October 17, 2010 by User:Kkmurray [39]

Informal request for assistance from prior case administrators November 1, 2010 User:Nick Y. [40] [41] [42] [43]

Examples of recent original research related to Kendrick mass

Kendrick mass [44]
Kendrick (unit) [45]
Atomic mass unit [46]
Thomson (unit) [47]
m/z [48]
The "Kehrli Plot" and original methods: [49]
Rationale for original research and rejecting published scientific literature: [50]
Rejection of secondary sources [51]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Awaiting statements; will comment thereafter. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Awaiting statements also - please note that as this is a case from 2006, I will only be reading the final decision as background. If more background reading is needed, please indicate this in statements. Carcharoth (talk) 00:25, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Date delinking

Initiated by Ohconfucius (talk) at 06:57, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Date delinking arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedies

17): "Ohconfucius is prohibited from using any automation in article space indefinitely."

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Ohconfucius (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Username3 (repeat above for all parties)

Amendment 1

17) amended to: "Nonwithstanding remedy #17, Ohconfucius (talk · contribs) is permitted to use the dashes script created and maintained by GregU (talk · contribs) for sole purpose of bringing the use of hyphens and dashes – as interrupters and as range separators between numerals – into conformity with WP:MOSDASH.

Statement by Ohconfucius

It has been 16 months since the date-delinking case was closed. During this time, I have thought at length about my past actions and the potential for disruption which automation can cause; I regret my actions, and acknowledge that I was wrong to use automation in the way I did during the case, in breach of the injunction.

I have continued to perform valuable work in good faith for Wikipedia (see my significant contributions): in addition to a large number of minor, “gnoming” edits, I have made significant contributions to or created a number of articles, five of which have become Good Articles, and two of which have become featured articles, here and here – both of which required diplomatic and intercultural skills on my part.

The script I hope to use has been in use for about a year, and has proved to be highly successful, with almost no false positives and to my knowledge no objections by editors. Its use would be ideal complement to my manual gnoming, since where the use of dashes is out of line with the style guides (in a surprisingly large proportion of our articles), the fix sometimes requires a large number of minute tweaks; for example, where hyphens have been used as dividers in large lists. I believe that allowing me to use this script would benefit the project and pose no technical or social risk. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 06:57, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

I am impressed with the quality of your contributions since the Date delinking case, and with the tone and substance of your comments here. Given that the underlying issue has long been resolved, I think we can remove the restrictions entirely. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 21:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with Kirill, Roger ^talk 19:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motion

1) Remedy #17 ("Ohconfucius automation") of the Date delinking case is terminated, effective immediately, and Ohconfucius (talk · contribs) is permitted to use automation subject to normal community guidelines.

Support

Proposed. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 21:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SirFozzie (talk) 16:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Risker (talk) 17:01, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Roger ^talk 19:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've copyedited by substituting "terminated effective immediately" for "rescinded" (the latter could be read to mean that we've decided the remedy was wrong in the first place, as opposed to what we do mean, which is that it's no longer necessary now). Any arbitrator who disagrees with the rephrasing may revert. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:41, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support and agree with Brad's copyedit. Shell ^babelfish 01:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
— Coren ^(talk) 13:36, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain

Recuse

Carcharoth (talk) 22:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motion adopted. Clerk to archive and notify. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Franco-Mongol alliance

Initiated by Per Honor et Gloria ✍ at 04:01, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Motion 1 "PHG's topic ban is renewed" [52]

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Per Honor et Gloria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Srnec (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Angusmclellan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

[53]
Lifting of editorial restrictions

Statement by Per Honor et Gloria

Continued contributions

Since February 2008, when my editorial restrictions started (on the Mongols and the Indo-Greeks...) I have been contributing as many as 800 new articles on a variety of subjects (see Created articles), through about 20,000 additional edits, for a total of 50,000 edits to date, without major issues. I have received 6 Barnstars and Awards in the meantime (see here). I have also completed about 100 DYKs in the same period (see User talk:Per Honor et Gloria for a sampling).

Existence of a Franco-Mongol alliance

Since all started in 2007 with a dispute about the way the Franco-Mongol alliance is described in the historical literature, I have reviewed about 70 authors, and found that many authors, probably most, acutally do write about the actual occurence of an alliance, which was based on written epistolary agreements, with military cooperation, lasting years at a time, although authors generally differ about its precise nature and timing. I found however that it is inexact to describe it generally as "only attempts at an alliance". For a precise analysis of the sources wih online references, see Historians on the Franco-Mongol alliance.

I believe a balanced presentation of the variety of views on the subject would be best. Clearly, it cannot be said that there was a full-scale, overarching alliance with a major, continuous military commitments. It was much more however than just "failed attempts at an alliance". What occured was something in between, a series of epistolary and diplomatic agreements resulting in a fleeting Franco-Mongol alliance, leading to attempts at large military combinations, but ending with rather small scale, ineffective, military operations. I would have no issue with the usage of qualifiers such as "A fleeting Franco-Mongol alliance", as often used in the literature, and am open to discussions about how to qualify it. Overall, I wish to be cleared of the accusations that I would have made up the existence of an alliance between the Franks and the Mongols: "alliance" is indeed the way it is described by most historians, the question is more the degree and the limited results of this alliance (Historians on the Franco-Mongol alliance).

Mongol occupation of Jerusalem

A major point of contention was also whether the Mongols occupied or not Jerusalem in 1299-1300. It was claimed that this did not happen, that I had made it up, that it was a hoax etc... (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mongol conquests and Jerusalem: I was copiously attacked for describing this event!!). I again researched the sources, and it is clear that this event indeed happened and that the historical concensus confirms it. See sandbox article with online sources for the details: Mongol occupation of Jerusalem. In the meantime, an independent contributor of high standing User:Srnec has also researched the subject, and explained that basically all historians agree that Jerusalem was occupied by the Mongols in 1299-1300, explaining that "the modern, reliable sources say unequivocally that the Mongols were in Jerusalem": see Mongol conquest of Jerusalem. To quote Srnec's own words, I am requesting that we stop "inventing a dispute where there isn't one" [54]. For my sake, and for the sake of historical truth on Wikipedia, I wish to be cleared of the accusations that I would have made up the story of the Mongols occupying Jerusalem in 1299-1300.

Sources

Since it was claimed I misrepresented sources to describe the above subjects, I made a detailed analysis and response to a quite faulty and partial "Report on the use of sources" that was apparently used as a basis for my restrictions: see Response to report on the use of sources. I believe that my usage of sources, although it may not be perfect, is generally correct. It is always my intention at least to be as exact as possible.

Hopefully things are being clarified with time. I am again bringing up this point because I believe it is a disservice to Wikipedia and to history fans in general to hide or dismiss these historical events, and attack those who describe them. I am requesting that my reputation be cleared, and that my normal editorial status be returned. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 04:01, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Responses

Questions are being raised regarding my "acknowledgement" of "past behavioural issues". The latest case in date (Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG) invoked the two following issues with my editing: "Prior damage in topics related to Mongol alliances with European nations" and "Continued likelihood of POV-pushing".

1) I do not believe documenting Mongol operations in the Levant between 1260-1303 to be "damage in topics related to Mongol alliances with European nations". I may certainly have been over-enthusiastic on the subject as I researched it for Wikipedia (I created the Franco-Mongol alliance article and most of its content...), and may for sure have over-mentioned it in some peripheral articles (for example one or several paragraphs, where a sentence might have been enough). It was always done with good intentions, but I understand it may be viewed as giving too much weight to these events, depending on the context. That's a pitfall I am clearly willing to avoid in future contributions.

2) I do not believe that writing about these events and describing the various views of historians on the subject of the Franco-Mongol alliance to be "POV-pushing". The variety of views is evident when looking at the sources (Historians on the Franco-Mongol alliance). On the contrary, I believe it is very POV to limit the interpretion of these events to simply "attempts at an alliance" as Elonka has been doing. I am only asking that all major views be given their fair share of representation, and that the description of these events be balanced. It is also downright false to claim that the Mongols did not occupy Jerusalem (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mongol conquests and Jerusalem) when the vast majority of historians declare that they did (Mongol occupation of Jerusalem). I believe it is our responsibility to make sure historical facts are properly represented on Wikipedia. I am willing to do so in collaboration with others, as I gladly do in my other contributions on Wikipedia. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 14:14, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Elonka: Looking up on Google for references to the "Mongol occupation of Jerusalem" might not be the best solution... Scholarly references can rather be found on Google Books. See Mongol+occupation+of+Jerusalem or Mongol+Jerusalem+1299: it is indeed a subject of scholarly inquiry, certainly not a "non-topic" as you claim. For more references see Occupation of Jerusalem in 1299-1300. May I remind that User:Srnec has also researched the subject extensively and disputed your version of the events, as he determined that "the modern, reliable sources say unequivocally that the Mongols were in Jerusalem": see Mongol conquest of Jerusalem. Noted historian, and specialist of the matter, Reuven Amitai concludes the subject in 2007: "The Mongol forces rode as far as Gaza, looting and killing as they went, and they entered several towns, including Jerusalem" [55]. "Finally, it is quite clear that the Mongols did enter, and terrorize, Jerusalem" [56]. Let's just be truthful to what historians say, please. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 00:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification. I asked Arbitrator Coren for clarification about what he meant "the problem is" that I would be "unwilling or unable to understand"[57], as it was indeed quite unclear and cryptic to me [58]? He answered that the problem was that I "fail to accept consensus", and that on Wikipedia editorial consensus has to be followed, "even if you are correct" [59]. Well, thank you, this is much clearer. But I must say I am OK to follow the rule of editorial consensus, even if it is not always a garantee of "truth". But if I remember well, "consensus is not immutable": it is also perfectly accepted on Wikipedia that Consensus can change. This means, I think, that I can, from time to time, bring new evidence to the subject to check if the consensus is still the same or not. Regarding the Mongol occupation of Jerusalem etc..., the situation is much clearer and much more documented than it was 3 years ago, and I think it would be worthwhile to consider the matter anew between editors interested by the subject. If it can help, I can formally promiss I will follow editorial consensus. If I don't, it would be easy to restrict my editing again. Best regards. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 22:01, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motion If such a motion is to move forward, I would like to ask for a narrowing of restrictions to simply the relations between the Mongols and the Crusaders. I do a lot of work on the Middle-Ages, the Renaissance and Asian subjects (literally 100s of articles [60]), and often the simple appearance of the word "Crusade" or "Mongol" in an article blocks me from contributing to it (like... History of Japan, History of China etc...). I feel it would be legitimate to adjust the restrictions to precisely "articles related to interraction between the Crusaders and the Mongols", which is really the crux of the matter we've been discussing. Thank you Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 03:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Georgewilliamherbert

PHG - you are addressing issues of historical research and completely bypassing findings regarding your behavior, which is what actually led to the topic ban being renewed six months ago.

What do you believe is different regarding your behavior and attitude compared to six months ago? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shell Kinney

This seems to be the perennial request and looks no different than the last time it is declined. Rather than provide evidence that he recognized the problems and has moved on, PHG once again tries to justify his behavior because he's "right". Same silly content claims aside, he doesn't seem to understand that it's not about content, it's about behavior. Sadly, until he's able to understand the issue, I won't be able to support lifting the restrictions. Shell ^babelfish 15:58, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PHG's responses were somewhat as expected; no understanding of the actual problems here and minimalization of serious issues as "overzealousness". Elonka makes a good point, rather than have to reinstate the restrictions when they run out again shortly, perhaps they should be made indefinite so that we don't have to keep revisiting the same dispute and they can of course be lifted if PHG demonstrates an understanding of the problems. Shell ^babelfish 17:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Groomtech: It's important to read the case and to understand the context here; the major problem is the "sources" PHG provides don't support his conclusion and he has repeatedly misrepresented those sources even to the point of claiming the exact opposite of what a source really says. Despite many editors pointing out these problems, to date he continues to misrepresent those same sources and mislead other editors, like yourself, who are unfamiliar with the source material. This is the failure to respect consensus that everyone is referring to; it's not about the article content, it's about that exact list of sources and the way he understands them. Shell ^babelfish 08:26, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Elonka

I have seen nothing from Per Honor et Gloria (talk · contribs) (PHG) to indicate that he understands the reason for his topic ban. Indeed, he appears to be continuing to collect grossly biased information in his userspace (See his sandbox article "Mongol occupation of Jerusalem" which cherrypicks a few footnotes here and there to rewrite history that in no way adapts to mainstream historical consensus). So it is obvious that if his ban were to be lifted, he would immediately resume his previous practice of creating biased WP:COATRACK articles pushing his pet POVs in the Mongol topic area. I strongly encourage the Arbitration Committee to not only deny PHG's request for amendment, but even to extend the ban indefinitely. Right now his ban is set to simply expire at the end of one year's time, meaning in March 2011. Considering that the problems with PHG's editing have been continuing since 2007 (see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance), I do not believe that it is reasonable to assume that by March of next year, PHG's editing will have magically improved. Better, I think, would be for ArbCom to authorize an indefinite ban, that can only be lifted once PHG demonstrates that he understands the community's prior concerns and is willing to modify his behavior in the future. Ideally this could be done in concert with a mentor, though I am unclear if PHG even still has a mentor (his last one was User:Angusmclellan). At the very least though, I would say that a request to have PHG's ban lifted should come from some other editor than PHG himself. --El on ka 16:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning PHG's sandbox article "Mongol occupation of Jerusalem", I feel that this could be considered a violation of his topic ban. As an FYI to those who are unfamiliar with the subject matter, the fact that the page is POV is pretty clearly proven by simply going to Google and searching on the concept of "Mongol occupation of Jerusalem". It's a non-topic, and, of additional concern, the few links that are there are mostly traceable back to PHG's userspace.[61] We as Wikipedians know that a userpage is not in main article space, but to those outside of the project, seeing the "wikipedia.org" domain is often all they recognize. Or in other words, the draft page should be deleted, and PHG should be instructed not to use his userspace as a way to get around his topic ban and continue to push his pet theories. --El on ka 14:37, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jehochman

I requested the original case. When an editor cites for the sake of historical truth as a reason for doing something, there is a strong possibility of tendentious editing. If the Mongols were in Jerusalem, somebody else will discover this fact and add it to our articles in due course. There is no need for PHG to make that particular edit. Please leave the topic ban in place. Jehochman ^Talk 17:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe User:Groomtech's assertions of objectivity. That account is somehow related to User:The Wiki House, User:A.K.Nole, and at least one other account. For the cryptographically challenged, A.K.Nole is "Elonka" backwards. Something is amiss. Jehochman ^Talk 13:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your explanations, Groomtech. I am going to blank User:The Wiki House and put up a {{retired}} template. That should help resolve any future concerns, Groomtech. The fact that you seem to agree with Shell's careful analysis is good sign. I don't think we ever got an explanation to resolve the concerns about the username of User:A.K.Nole. Is that just a weird coincidence? Jehochman ^Talk 17:43, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Groomtech

I have never been involved in this case, so thought it might be interesting to give an outsider's and a newcomer's view. It seems to me that PHG has a point of view about a certain historical event and can bring forward sources to support it. Presumably there is another POV and sources to support that, and this is perfectly normal for Wikipedia. Since PHG has agreed to abide by consensus, there seems no reason not to allow him to demonstrate that he is willing and able to do so. Confident predictions that he will be certain not to seem unduly pessimistic and there is no obvious foundation for them. Groomtech (talk) 06:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Shell Kinney has explained the matter clearly and I withdraw my comment. Jehochman should do the same. Groomtech (talk) 06:22, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment 2

Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested
Details of desired modification

Statement by your username (2)

{Statement by editor filing request for amendment. Contained herein should be an explanation and evidence detailing why the amendment is necessary.}

Statement by other editor (2)

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Waiting for any further statements, but I am not currently inclined to lift and or/loosen the sanctions. SirFozzie (talk) 11:27, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm willing to entertain a motion to make the sanctions indefinite, if my fellow Arbs have no issues with it. SirFozzie (talk) 17:30, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason, a priori, to believe that the behavioral problems that have let to the ban being renewed have been addressed. PHG, do you have something to say on that matter (as opposed to the content issues)? — Coren ^(talk) 20:49, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given that PHG is unwilling or unable to understand what the problem even is, I see little that can be done except extend the restriction indefinitely to prevent the issue from resurfacing repeatedly to the detriment of all (including PHG's). — Coren ^(talk) 02:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Decline Per Coren. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Decline per the above. Carcharoth (talk) 05:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motion for Amendment

The existing topic ban imposed in the PHG arbitration on Per Honor et Gloria (talk · contribs) is extended indefinitely. Accordingly, this user is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, all broadly defined. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion. Per Honor et Gloria may appeal this sanction no more than once every six months, starting six months from the passing of this motion.

As there are 11 active arbitrators, 1 of whom is recused, the majority to pass is 6.

Support

Feel free to edit the motion, I just decided to get the ball rolling. ((removed Hellenistic India per the parties request.)) SirFozzie (talk) 16:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Risker (talk) 17:39, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With minor copy edit Roger ^talk 19:25, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(A few more minor copyedits.) I regret that this extension is necessary, but it does appear to be so. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per Newyorkbrad. Carcharoth (talk) 22:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
— Coren ^(talk) 13:37, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Recuse

Request to amend prior case: EEML (2)

Initiated by _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} at 22:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedy 3

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

N/A

Amendment 1

Piotrus topic banned
This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 3 to end the topic ban that applies to Piotrus and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Piotrus

The amendment proposed last June concerning my person was described as "premature" and the Committee members suggested it should be revisited in one to three months time. As three months have passed, I would like to ask the Committee to consider it now (the topic ban is now in its mid-length, with six months passed, and six months to go).

I would like to repeat what I said three months ago (update: which I could summarize as "I apologize for becoming radicalized and violating WP:CANVASS and I promise not to repeat those mistakes") and to confirm that three months later I have still not been involved in any controversy or dispute resolution and that I am still actively contributing to English Wikipedia and other WMF projects. Notably, there have been not a single complain about my WikiProject Poland related activity, allowed by the amendment from May. I would like to resume carrying out clean up work on articles myself (instead of having to report all issues, even obvious vandalism, and burdening other editors with carrying out the tasks I can do myself). Further, I would like to resume regular new content creation (see how much content I created before and after the topic ban). I was the author of many uncontroversial Poland-related Featured Articles; in fact I have had a draft of a now-defeatured Poland-related article ready for transfer to en wiki for several months now (the article even passed a mock GA review a while ago)... is the project really benefiting from me not being able to fix this article and others...?

I would like to stress that content I created was never an issue of concern, the EEML case was about inappropriate canvassing. If the Committee has any lingering doubts, I can promise to voluntarily abstain from casting votes in Eastern European related discussions (moves, deletions, etc.) for the remainder of the topic ban original duration.

To the expected peanut gallery, I have this to say: I am here to build an encyclopedia, and I invite you to join me in good faith in this collaborative effort. To the "Piotrus is EVIL" chorus, I have this to add: I forgive you (you should try it, it does wonders for one's wikistress). To those who have supported me in the past and will do so in the future, I want to say thank you. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Ghirla

"The absence of Piotrus from the Eastern Europian minefield made it a much safer and pleasant place than it used to be". Really? Given this, the numerous AE threads and even the discussions here, including some recent Arbitrator comments below, sadly, I am not seeing this. The dramu continues, without the dreaded EEML members. I wonder why... weren't we the root of all evil after all? :>

Anyway, here's a piece of ancient history: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus-Ghirla and User:Durova/Mediation. I stood by and still stand by your request and my promise - I have never commented on you since that mediation. It saddens me to see that you are not returning this favor, even through you made a clear promise: "I promise not to mention his [Piotrus] name in similar circumstances" (the similar circumstances being "to stop discussing [the other editor] on public noticeboards".

I was disappointed when you withdrew from that mediation, but till now, we have not interacted, and I considered our ancient disagreements a thing of the past, and the hatchet well and deep buried. I appreciate your uncontroversial content contribution to the EE topic, and your lack of involvement in the surrounding dramu; till your present comment on my person I thought you were the model reformed, deradicalized editor we could all learn from (create content, avoid conflict and dramu). I'd really appreciate it if you could reconsider your involvement, and rebury the hatchet. Thank you, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Offliner

You ask for some valid statements/links, and I am happy to provide them.

"a real admission of all transgressions (not just a single one like "EEML case was about inappropriate canvassing", which is even in the passive voice) & a real apology": if you'd prefer an active voice statement, here you go: "I was involved in violations of WP:CANVASS during the EEML period, for which I apologize." Please also see here;
"a real promise that nothing similar to the transgressions will recur": repeating from three months ago: "I plan on ensuring that errors of the past will not repeat themselves in the future";
"perhaps proposing measures that will discourage relapse". In addition to the links above, please see here, here and here. Sadly, those proposals were not met with much discussion, amid calls for blood and such. I wonder, were this not the case, would the EE arena today be still as battleground-ish as it is now? Blocks and bans are simple, but not that effective, as experience shows. What is needed is a desire for participants to bury the hatchet and talk things over. Nothing less will fix the situation, I am afraid. Anyway, this is not the best forum for discussion, but I invite you to read my thoughts on this issue here and comment on the talk page.

In exchange, could you point me out to the apology you have made for the events that led to your block on January 15, a promise not to repeat the actions that led to it and any proposals to discourage relapse you have made? Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to "4+1+40 Offenses": I did and do acknowledge, apologize and promise never to repeat all items that the arbitrators listed in the findings of the case (what you refer to as "4 Offenses", which includes canvassing; I refer to the other items as "radicalization" and I mentioned that in my recognition&apology&promise above). I have never seen this bizarre "40 Offenses" list; it was certainly never a part of any proposed (or passed) finding. It looks to me like your own version of the official findings, in many instances differing substantively from them (and as such not something relevant to this amendment). In fact, some of your claims directly contradict the Committee findings (to start with your first claim - I will not discuss others for reasons of space and relevance - is that I was the list founder and organizer - the Committee found otherwise). Let me remind you that that this is not the place to re-litigate the case by bringing concerns from that time that were not taken up by the Committee, but in any case I do agree that the behaviors you describe should be avoided (by me and others). Once again, I did and do apologize for the relevant ("4") offenses and plan never to repeat them again. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:32, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Skäpperöd

This is ridiculous, or bad faithed, or both... sigh. Regarding the note to Jusdafax, I found some anon vandalism, and I reported it to an admin that already reverted part of it. Months ago Coren has already confirmed I can report vandalism to administrators; the topic ban prevents me from undoing it myself but certainly does not mean that I should keep mum when I see it (oh, and during the period I was banned, I emailed info on vandalism I spotted to several arbitrators regularly, too). Sigh. This "evidence" gets even more ridiculous. Forced labor in Germany during World War II to which I made just a single mostly automated c/e edit concerns multiple nationalities, not to mention Germany is not in Eastern Europe the last time I checked; see also article's talk page and categories which do not contain any EE projects nor categories, just German ones. The only edit to Second Northern War I made was adding an uncontroversial talk MILHIST assessment template; in any case, just like the previous article, this article deals only marginally with Poland, probably as much as generic World War II article (for example); further the MILHIST template when assessed by another editor did not merit inclusion of a Poland-taskforce.

In fact, to make Skäpperöd's job easier, let me report myself for many similar edits. In the past few weeks I have made edits to pages like Wikimania (2010 edition of which was held in Poland), Revolution (I am sure some occurred in Poland), Pax Mongolica (Mongols invaded Poland at one time, you know), and multiple articles on generic concepts from the fields of science and literature, which are variously connected to Poland (galaxy for example contains the planet Earth which contains Poland, or space opera, which is a genre that Polish writers write in and some are probably mentioned on that page, too). I have also added assessment templates to scores of articles, and while I tried avoiding those obviously connected with Eastern Europe, I might have missed the fact that some of them mention something EE-related in the main body (which I usually don't read). I have also use AutoEd on the main body of many articles; again, it is likely that some of them may mention something EE-related (hmmm, come to think to it, I was working on the world-systems article, and IIRC somewhere in it is an example that mentions Poland in one sentence... I could go on :>

More seriously, I strongly believe I have upheld the topic ban quite well, and I think Skäpperöd's evidence proves it - in fact, thanks for bringing it up, I couldn't make a better argument myself :)

As I said above, I strongly believe that the EE area is not going to improve without editors following WP:FORGIVE. I am afraid, however, that if some editors will keep bad faith attacks on others, aiming to forum shop blocks or bans on anything that can be stretched and called "evidence", the battleground atmosphere will persist, and the Committee may need to step in again :( Perhaps some kind of restriction on bringing spurious evidence and requests is in order? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:34, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kotniski

Again, I support Piotrus's request. There are no and never have been any serious complaints about Piotrus's actions as an editor of articles; and so, considering what a productive editor he is capable of being, any continued restrictions on this editing serve only to harm the encyclopedia.--Kotniski (talk) 08:55, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ghirla

The absence of Piotrus from the Eastern Europian minefield made it a much safer and pleasant place than it used to be, prompting even Ghirla to resume editing activity, albeit on a limited scale. What a hell of an atmosphere it used to be when Piotrus and Co conspired behind the curtain how to oust from the project the editors like Ghirla, with more than 165,000 edits under his belt. It sends shivers down his spine even now. Poor Irpen, where he is now. Let's pardon the participants of the infamous mailing list, and you will have more drama, witch-hunts and persecution, leaving the Russia-related topics what they had been for quite some time: barren of authors. --Ghirla^-трёп- 16:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The comments below remind me that I was declared a "hate/propaganda monger" (June 23) on what they call the "Russian front" or "taking the fight to the enemy" (June 21). I don't think I've ever commented on the case; only a prospect of full impunity for everyone involved in the long-term pattern of personal attacks and wikistalking prompts me to comment here. Those guys have succeeded in ousting every reasonably productive contributor from Russia-related topics. Just think about it. P.S. Mr Vecrumba is an EEML member and seems to be actively violating his topic ban. --Ghirla^-трёп- 07:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Malik Shabazz

As I did three months ago, I once again support Piotrus' proposed amendment. I agree with other editors who have mentioned how prolific a contributor Piotrus is. I believe he has learned from the EEML debacle and will work toward the improvement of the project.

Currently, Piotrus is allowed to comment on Poland-related matters at WT:POLAND. Every week, he reviews new articles and posts notes about them (e.g., which ones should be nominated for DYK, whether articles should be nominated for speedy deletion, etc.). Then I evaluate Piotrus' suggestions and act upon them as I see fit, a task in which we are sometimes assisted by other editors. I think it would be easier for all concerned if Piotrus were able to perform this Wiki-gnoming directly, rather than by proxy.

In summary, I think Piotrus is an asset to the project and his inability to edit articles in the area of his expertise is a detriment to all of us. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question for SirFozzie

Could you elaborate on your comment a little, please? It isn't clear how your comments with respect to Skäpperöd's proposed amendment relate to the this proposed amendment. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:03, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question

In light of the long period that has passed since Coren said he would draft a motion, I feel the need to ask whether Carcharoth's comment ("I would suggest all those under sanctions of finite length just wait out the bans") reflect the Committee's latest thinking, or is it just Carcharoth's view? If the latter, could somebody indicate when the Committee might make some progress on this proposed amendment? Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Offliner

I cannot speak for what others or even Arbcom will want to see but this would be what I'd personally hope for. If any of this has happened before, it will have escaped my attention and some diffs will do to rectify me.

a real admission of all transgressions (not just a single one like "EEML case was about inappropriate canvassing", which is even in the passive voice)
a real apology
a real promise that nothing similar to the transgressions will recur
perhaps proposing measures that will discourage relapse. Offliner (talk) 21:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The 4 Offences known from the official findings of facts

Canvassing
Piotrus was aware that usage of the list was inappropriate, and made efforts to keep its nature and existence secret from Wikipedia editors.
Piotrus has used his administrative tools in disputes he and other members of the list were involved in in order to affect disputes and in furtherance of their point of view.
Piotrus has participated in a variety of disruptive activities coordinated on the mailing list, including 'tag team' edit-warring and encouraging and advising list members to circumvent Wikipedia policies.

The 1 Offence Piotrus has acknowledged and promised to avoid

Violations of Canvassing

- Canvassing is most easy to game for Piotrus. In this recent on-wiki message (everyone knows that Piotrus usually prefers off-wiki contacts), Piotrus refers someone to his amendment, reminds that he supported him last time and implies support for an adminship application. He just obfuscates the meaning by using a pretext that he was interested in why that person had forgiven him unlike the others. Piotrus didn't write a message to those who had opposed his amendment last time, although it would make much more sense to ask them for forgiveness and ask why they had opposed him.

Statement by nihil novi

Not having been a participant in the East European Mailing List, I may not have a full understanding of some of its activities, which I gather were involved in sanctions now under review. I personally do not recall ever having been contacted in an inappropriate way by Piotr Konieczny. I have seen him as a most competent, dedicated and productive contributor to Wikipedia on a broad range of topics, including the history of Poland and Europe. His contributions to the overarching project have been of inestimable value, both in the production of content and in the coordination of an appreciable portion of the efforts of other productive authors. Wikipedia can, I think, ill afford to exclude such a capable individual from full participation in the community's efforts to build a comprehensive, honest, reliable online encyclopedia. Nihil novi (talk) 06:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jacurek

Piotrus's contribution to the Wikipedia especially Project Poland [62] is outstanding. His dedication and knowledge are way above the average contributor. Keeping him banned from the topic area of Eastern Europe any longer only hurts the project itself. Ridiculous and bad faith comments from well known opponents of Piotrus such as this one for example[63] of user Skäpperöd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are sad examples of aggressive block shopping that should be punished.--Jacurek (talk) 18:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jniech

I consider myself a Polish editor (but British with a Polish father) hence I declare any bias.

First I find it difficult to really understand the view “that Piotrus and Co conspired behind the curtain how to oust from the project”. It easy enough to set-up a Wikipedia account and use a different IP address. If editing is easier then it is because those involved have accepted their punishment.

Further I understand that based on the decision, that Piotrus was found guilty.

I support this proposal that Piotrus be allowed to edit articles related to Eastern Europe. Having said that if it is rejected I would hope he would be allowed to write new articles and allowed to interact on talk pages (e.g. add quality, importance and take part in debates). Jniech (talk) 20:59, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Lysy

I support the request, for the same reason as before. As for my bias, yes, I am Polish and I admit that I am interested in the quality of Poland-related articles as well as unrelated articles. While Polish, I remained unaware of the illegal mailing list existence, so the conspiracy might have not been that wide and powerful, after all. This said I'm still surprised that mailing lists are considered illegal on wikipedia. Anyway, in my opinion the topic ban is irrelevant to the offence, serves no useful purpose and in fact is only destructive for wikipedia. --Lysy^talk 17:38, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Artem Karimov

As an outsider, I would like to voice my opinion as well. It appears to me that Piotrus' behaviour has got no better since the EEML case. Such an obfuscated payoff pointed out by Offliner made me completely convinced that lifting the block is NOTNOW. If Piotrus' behavioural pattern does not change in the future, then, quite possibly, NOTEVER. Retracting my previous statement. There is always enough rope anyway. And Piotrus sounds sincere so probably we could give him a chance to redeem himself. Therefore support. Artem Karimov (talk | edits) 16:52, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ezhiki

As long as Piotrus can stay out of trouble and edit peacefully, I see very little point in Wikipedia loosing a valuable contributor in a severely undermanned area. I support the remedy, although I would also support re-instating the topic ban immediately should Piotrus find himself in an (accepted) Eastern Europe-related ArbComm case ever again.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); October 7, 2010; 15:18 (UTC)

Statement by Biophys

You issued editing restrictions for a lot of editors in several recent cases. Some of these editors will not behave well and perhaps invite more serious measures, as evident from the recent discussions at AE and elsewhere. Others will follow your order to edit peacefully and productively in allowed areas and behave well in every respect, just like Piotrus. Whatever his problems in the past, Piotrus shows a very positive example (please compare with others). It makes a lot of sense to support editors like him. Otherwise, there is no hope. You should not only use big stick. Biophys (talk) 02:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Septentrionalis

I have not been contacted by Piotrus; I am not a professional Pole - on the other hand, I do not have ideological commitments to any of the other nationalities contending for Minsk and Silesia. My experience with Piotrus has been that he was always comparatively reasonable, and more willing to yield for compromise than several editors who were not sanctioned or have been sanctioned for fixed terms.

It is clear, above, that Piotrus recognizes the problem, and that he asserts his intertion to avoid it, under pain of permanent topic ban. Let us lift it, or at least declare a term (and at this point, many terms would already have expired); those who think otherwise should be prepared to jusitfy a permanent ban. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In response to a comment: I see I have erred; Piotrus is under a ban of twelve months, to begin after his three month block. (Why so much vehemence over so short a time remaining?) This seems unusual, although understandable; ArbCom rarely attempts to regulate more than a year in advance - either things are indefinite or one year renewable, as with PHG above. I support the current motion, although I hope it will be interpreted assuming good faith and enforced by warning before blocks; a hostile admin could construe any diplomatic or military action of Poland-Lithuania as "ethnic conflict". If it passes and succeeds in keeping Piotrus out of inflammatory areas, that will be more evidence of Piotrus' moderation. If it fails, may I suggest making the year topic ban concurrent with the block, thus ending next month? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by Skäpperöd

Looking at Piotrus' talk page, one finds a recent note of Jusdafax, in which he confirmed making this EE edit on "request" by Piotrus (otherwise not knowing about the issue, see edit summary). What makes this even more worrying is that the "request" was apparently made off-wiki. Piotrus also violated his topic ban last month when he came to this article after his associate Molobo had edited there. I further remember Piotrus' interest an article I wrote, Second Northern War, which also is within the scope of his topic ban. The article was up for GAC review when Piotrus and encouraged another user to make critical comments during the review [64] and tagged its talk page.

In the request below I provided evidence that Radeksz is back at his old targets after the return from his topic ban, he even got blocked for his post-topic ban disruption, and we are just talking about this summer. Molobo's post-block behaviour is also in part mentioned in that request. Jacurek evaded his topic ban by sockpuppetry. The group's associate Loosmark was recently EE topic banned. Biophys was subject to another Arbcom case after the EEML. The remedies of the EEML arbcom should have quieted the EE are for about a year, but they have not succeeded in doing so.

Until Piotrus2, Arbcom had decided in dubio pro Piotro, then gained access to the EEML archive, and responded with moderate remedies. This approach has failed. It is unlikely that Arbcom will every now and then be provided with a random archive of Piotrus' group's off-wiki collaboration, nor will Radeksz copy his inbox to mainspace again as he did while proxying for Molobo. That doesn't mean that it has stopped.

I suggest that Piotrus' group is subject to a permanent topic ban from EE articles concerning shared histories, naming disputes, or shared/disputed nationality issues.

Statement by DonaldDuck

For Piotrus, topic ban was deserved remedy. And this remedy worked. After Piotrus was topic banned, Eastern European topic area became much safer place. Editors can work without fear of being targeted by Piotrus and his group. EEML remedy should not be amended now. DonaldDuck (talk) 11:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heim talketh

Apparently I'm now going to join the scorned "Piotrus is evil" crowd. So be it.

I'm quite concerned that Piotrus still seems to show no sign of remorse or even much concern about what he did. Indeed, his comment seems to almost be telling us that we need to absolve him. Forgiveness is not something to be demanded, it is to be humbly requested, and I'm not seeing this. Of course, this shouldn't be about personal disputes (and I don't believe I ever have disputed with Piotrus, myself), but the approach he's taking leaves me really skeptical that he's really learnt anything. He holds up his spotless record since his return from his siteban. Well, yeah, that's because he's been mandatorily away from the area where the problems happened. I can't see that this record proves much. (True, this can be said in the case of any topic ban.) I acknowledge that he's been a hard working contributor at Wikipedia for a long time, but the abuse he perpetrated with EEML can't be mitigated solely by that, and the committee has to weigh if he's really likely to be a net positive here. OK, still some concerns, but I did miss that there was an apology. Striking this much.

If the committee decides to lift, even in part, this topic ban, which I really think is probably not in Wikipedia's best interest, I strongly urge an oversight mechanism to be in place so that any relapse into previous behaviour will result in the reinstatement of the sanctions. Eastern Europe articles are already the biggest, most festering national/ethnic-related stinkhole on Wikipedia, despite the joys of Israel/Palestine and Ireland/the British Isles. I ask the arbitration committee to do whatever it can to be sure it festers and stinks less. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:07, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clerical note: Piotrus has raised concerns about statement that suggests I may have missed things. I intend to look later and make amendments as necessary. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:41, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've stricken some of my comments that I believe were inaccurate. I acknowledge that Piotrus has, contrary to my original understanding, apologized, which I reckon is a start, at least. I continue to reiterate that, given the severity of previous lapses, if the committee chooses to lighten this restriction, there should be proper oversight to stop this situation if there's any relapse. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 11:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically for Newyorkbrad

Concerning your suggestion, I'm going to have to be one of those people who raises questions about line-drawing. In this volatile area, ethnic disputes pop up in unexpected areas. For example, Nicolaus Copernicus would seem like it ought to be just another science article, but no, it's also a been a point of ethnic disputes over the scientist's nationality. I have no real ideas about how the lines would be drawn, and I honestly question whether this idea is feasible. Completely understand the want to do this, but is it realistic? Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:16, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on terminology

I think Coren's comment is the second time recently that I've seen an arbitrator using the expression "toe the line" in a way that seems to be contrary to its normal meaning. My experience of its use is roughly in line with the wikipedia article where it quotes directly from sources:

"To adhere to rules or doctrines conscientiously; conform" (American Heritage)
"To conform to a rule or standard" (Oxford)

The way it's used here though in "trying to toe the line and argue about where it lies" seems to mean... something else. The best I can make of the intended meaning is along the lines of "trying to push the boundaries". I think it's an emerging case of a locally redefined word or phrase that hinders communication with anyone from the rest of the world and would best be dropped before a local meaning sticks. Wikipedia really has too much of that already. 87.254.73.141 (talk) 04:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

See below for my response and thoughts in this area. SirFozzie (talk) 22:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Further: I reiterate what I think down below, that the fact that people in this area cannot or will not get along with each other bodes very ill for the consequences.. as for the narrowing, I agree with Brad, and will at least be willing to narrow the topic ban, with the caveat that it's going to be very quickly reapplied if there are future issues. SirFozzie (talk) 04:16, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The current topic-ban provides that Piotrus is currently "topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed." I do not think that in view of the entire situation and history, a consensus to lift the topic-ban in its entirety is likely to emerge. However, consistent with what I have suggested on other occasions, I am considering a motion to narrow the topic ban to apply only to "articles concerning nationalist or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe" and related pages, as opposed to all articles about Eastern Europe. This would allow Piotrus to edit many articles in his areas of interest without, hopefully, stoking disputes about the most contentious ones. I understand that there may be concerns about line-drawing, but I think they are solvable. Comments on this possibility would be appreciated; please submit them by Saturday so that, for once, we can potentially have a timetable for resolving this request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:37, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recused. Shell ^babelfish 09:20, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree in principle with a narrowing of the topic ban, but that would be accompanied with a stern warning that trying to toe the line and argue about where it lies is the swiftest way to have it return. I'll propose an amendment in a few day unless one of my colleagues does so first in order to give more time for other arbs to chime in (we have had, regrettably but predictably, our attention mostly taken by an ongoing case rather than this page). — Coren ^(talk) 20:47, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Like Fozzie and some other arbs, why is it the East Europe editors seem completely incapable of getting along with one another. I'm beginning to think we should open another case and use wiki-tactical nuke level measures. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - over the past near-two years I have been an arbitrator, this has remained an incessant battleground area. I fully expect that unless the same names that keep appearing time and time again get the message, there will be further measures taken either by this committee or the new one in 2011. There is such a thing as wearing out the patience of ArbCom as well as the community. I would suggest all those under sanctions of finite length just wait out the bans, and those with indefinite restrictions limit themselves to getting the restrictions changed to ones of a finite length. Carcharoth (talk) 06:01, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recuse Roger ^talk 19:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motion

Remedy 3 of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list "Piotrus topic banned") is replaced with the following:

Piotrus (talk · contribs) is topic banned from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about these topics until March 22, 2011 (the date on which the topic ban imposed in the original decision was to expire).

As there are 11 active arbitrators, 2 of whom are recused, the majority to pass is 5

Support

With my apologies by the externally imposed delay in proposing this motion. — Coren ^(talk) 13:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SirFozzie (talk) 14:43, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Added the time limitation; I believe this motion is intended as a narrowing, not an extension, of the existing topic ban. If I have misinterpreted the intent, any arbitrator can revert and we should discuss. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that was the intent. — Coren ^(talk) 22:03, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Carcharoth (talk) 00:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Risker (talk) 02:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain