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Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: Amorymeltzer (Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Newyorkbrad (Talk) & Rlevse (Talk) & Risker (Talk)

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

In addition to the usual guidelines for arbitration cases, the following procedures apply to this case:

The case will be opened within 24 hours after the posting of these guidelines.
The drafting arbitrators will be Newyorkbrad, Rlevse, and Risker. The arbitration clerk for the case will be Amorymeltzer, but all the active arbitration clerks are asked to assist with this case as needed.
The title of the case will be Climate change. Participants are asked to bear in mind that case titles are chosen for administrative convenience and do not reflect any prejudgment on the scope or outcome of the case.
Notice of the opening of the case will be given to all editors who were named as parties in the request for arbitration, all editors who commented on the request, and all editors who commented on either of the two pending related requests ("Sock Puppet Standards of Evidence" and "Stephan Schulz and Lar"). If any other editor later becomes a potential subject of the case, such as by being mentioned extensively in evidence or named in a workshop proposal, a notice should also be given to that editor at that time.
The issues raised in the "Sock Puppet Standards of Evidence" and "Stephan Schulz and Lar" requests may be raised and addressed in evidence in this case if (but only if) they have not been resolved by other means.
Preparation of a formal list of "parties to the case" will not be required. In previous cases of this complexity, extensive discussion about who is or is not or should be or should not be a party has often become the focus of controversy, sometimes to the detriment of the parties' focusing on the merits of the case itself. As long as all editors whose conduct is being reviewed are notified of the case, and the decision makes it clear which editors are affected by any sanctions, it does not ultimately matter whether a given editor was formally named as a "party" or not.
Within five days from the opening of the case (i.e. by 00:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)), participants are asked to provide a listing of the sub-issues that they believe should be addressed in the committee's decision. This should be done in a section of the Workshop page designated for that purpose. Each issue should be set forth in as a one-sentence, neutrally worded question—for example:
- "Should User:X be sanctioned for tendentious editing on Article:Y"?
- "Has User:Foo made personal attacks on editors of Article:Z?"
- "Did Administrator:Bar violate the ABC policy on (date)?"
- "Should the current community probation on Global Warming articles by modified by (suggested change)?"

The committee will not be obliged to address all the identified sub-issues in its decision, but having the questions identified should help focus the evidence and workshop proposals.

All evidence should be posted within 15 days from the opening of the case (i.e. by 00:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)). The drafters will seek to move the case to arbitrator workshop proposals and/or a proposed decision within a reasonable time thereafter, bearing in mind the need for the committee to examine what will presumably be a very considerable body of evidence.
Participants are urgently requested to keep their evidence and workshop proposals as concise as reasonably possible.
The length limitation on evidence submissions is to be enforced in a flexible manner to maximize the value of each user's evidence to the arbitrators. Users who submit overlength diatribes or repetitious presentations will be asked by the clerks to pare them. On the other hand, the word limit should preferably not be enforced in a way that hampers the reader's ability to evaluate the evidence. For example, an editor may present evidence in a form such as "event A occurred [diff 1] and then event B occurred [2], which led to event C [3], followed by a personal attack [4], and an uncivil comment [5], resulting in a block [6], an unblock [7], and an ANI discussion [8]." It sometimes happens that the editor is asked to shorten his or her evidence, and it is refactored to read something like "there was a dispute about a block [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]." This does not make life easier for the arbitrators who have to study all the evidence. Editors should take this into account before complaining that other editors' sections are too long.
All participants are expected to abide by the general guideline for Conduct on arbitration pages, which states:
The pages associated with Arbitration cases are primarily intended to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed, and expeditious resolution of each case. Participation by editors who present good-faith statements, evidence, and workshop proposals is appreciated. While allowance is made for the fact that parties and other interested editors may have strong feelings about the subject-matters of their dispute, appropriate decorum should be maintained on these pages. Incivility, personal attacks, and strident rhetoric should be avoided in Arbitration as in all other areas of Wikipedia.
Until this case is finally decided, the existing community sanctions and procedures for Climate change and Global warming articles remain in full effect, and editors on these articles are expected to be on their best behavior.
Any arbitrator, clerk, or other uninvolved administrator is authorized to block, page-ban, or otherwise appropriately sanction any participant in this case whose conduct on the case pages departs repeatedly or severely from appropriate standards of decorum. Except in truly egregious cases, a warning will first be given with a citation to this notice. (We hope that it will never be necessary to invoke this paragraph.)
This procedural notice shall be copied at the top of the evidence and workshop pages. Any questions about these procedures may be asked in a designated section of the workshop talkpage.
After this case is closed, editors will be asked to comment on whether any of the procedures listed above should be made standard practice for all future cases, or for future complex cases.

Motions and requests by the parties

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Proposed temporary injunctions

GoRight unblock

1) WITHDRAWN Fast tract request, GoRight (talk · contribs) be granted an injunction and probation to participate in this case. He was banned during the sanctions, for too many enforcement request, and his views on the sanctions are highly relevant. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 23:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC) This relevant issue may distract from the core "disruption" issue in this, what is expected to be a long and complicated case with evidence diffs and principles worked out to resolution. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Er, he was not "banned for too many enforcement requests". He was initially blocked indefinitely by 2/0 for a variety of long-term behavioral issues. He was conditionally unblocked by Trusilver (talk · contribs), in the interest of a last chance. However, Trusilver became disheartened at GoRight's continued problematic behavior and brought the matter back to AN/I here. As you can see, the thread was closed in favor of a community ban; GoRight appealed to the Ban Appeals Subcommittee, and received this reply.

GoRight's participation in various dispute-resolution forums was broadly problematic, and in fact played a major role in his ban. Given that he's been a net negative in dispute resolution (particularly on climate change), I don't see what would be gained by inviting his participation here. MastCell ^Talk 23:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Problematic, in that he found himself in a constant state of appeal after he would try to get folks to look at wikipeidia principles ~~als~~. Instead, they tossed out the foundation with the rules and banned him. Perhaps I may be expecting that folks will respect a principled argument in ArcCom. After all, there are scientists with Ph.Ds participating. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 05:07, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to gently suggest that a principled argument would begin by correctly explaining the rationale for GoRight's ban, ideally with diffs and links. MastCell ^Talk 23:35, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Questions to the parties

Sub-issues to be addressed

As requested, please list your concise, one-sentence, neutrally worded question(s) here

Issues by Hipocrite

1) When evaluating the prominence of a scientific argument, what is the appropriate weight given to various media types?

2) How are new, single-purpose accounts to be dealt-with in the area?

3) Are all editors appropriately following sourcing policies?

4) Are all adminstraotors appropraitely following involvement standards?

5) Are current involvement standards appropraite?

Sub-issues suggested by JohnWBarber

1) Should the current community probation on Global Warming articles be modified by having the Arbitration Committee appoint the administrators who would deliberate on complaints at the WP:GSCCRE page?

2) If the Arbitration Committee decides to appoint administrators to deliberate on complaints at the WP:GSCCRE page, should it ask the community in a year's time to suggest to ArbCom whether WP:GSCC is still needed in any form, and if so, whether that new, ArbCom-appointed set-up should be continued or revert back to the present set-up, and in either case, whether it should be modified in other ways?

3) Should User:William M. Connolley be sanctioned for tendentious editing, ongoing incivility, assumptions of bad faith and personal attacks?

4) Should User:Kim Dabelstein Petersen be sanctioned for tendentious editing, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior and WP:BLP violations on climate change articles?

5) Should User:Jehochman be sanctioned for assumptions of bad faith, WP:BATTLEFIELD-like behavior and personal attacks on the WP:GSCCRE page at "Request concerning JohnWBarber" (filed March 3 and "ChrisO" request filed March 8, and on other pages, or should behavioral violations be tolerated when administrators are committing them in the course of commenting on a situation?

6) Should User:Franamax be sanctioned for assumptions of bad faith, WP:BATTLEFIELD-like behavior and personal attacks on the WP:GSCCRE page at "Request concerning JohnWBarber" filed March 3 and "ChrisO" request filed March 8, and on other pages, or should behavioral violations be tolerated when administrators are committing them in the course of commenting on a situation?

7} Has User:Polargeo been disruptive on various pages related to climate change articles, particularly WP:GSCCRE and its talk page?

8) Should User:Hipocrite be sanctioned for excessive and frequent incivility?

9) Should User: Short Brigade Harvester Boris be sanctioned for tendentious editing, edit warring and disruption at Climatic Research Unit email controversy?

Suggested issues to examine by Cla68

1) Has there been any extended abuse of BLP articles by a group of established editors, including one or more administrators?

2) Have any established editors, including one or more administrators, employed incivility including personal attacks, bullying, baiting, sarcasm, and insults over an extended period of time on the talk pages of any of the climate change articles and, if so, did the behavior result in decreased cooperation, collaboration, and compromise in expanding or improving the content of those articles?

4) Have any established editors, including one or more administrators, displayed contempt, derision, or indifference towards Wikipedia's policies, guidelines, and/or article-improvement forums such as WP:Good Article or WP:Featured Article?

5) Have any established editors, including one or more administrators, used delaying tactics in article talk page discussions including non sequiturs, wikilawyering, and revert warring to impede addition of new content to any climate change articles?

6) Have any established editors who may have a conflict of interest, such as having a close personal or professional relationship with BLP subjects involved with climate change controversies, edited climate change articles in a way that could be interpreted as a violation of NPOV?

Suggested issues to examine by Lar

1) Should the Scientific point of view be used in the GW/CC area instead of NPOV?

2a) Does article goodness (and scientific accuracy) excuse poor editing behavior to the point that the ends justify the means, or does it matter what the editing process to get the articles to that state was?

2b)Further, is Global Warming such a dire threat to mankind that Wikipedia should take a position on it or at least modify normal standards to ensure that the articles adhere to generally accepted scientific consensus at all times and in all ways?

3a) Should the definition of "uninvolved" as used in the CC/RE pages be modified to conform to the generally accepted definition elsewhere? (taking into account editing in the general area as well as editor interaction)

3b) If so, should this modification also apply to other enforcement areas beyond CC/RE or is CC/RE a special case?

4) Are the following editors "uninvolved"? (list to be supplied later)

5a) Has the "Duck test" been broadened inappropriately?

5b) Is the "Duck test" routinely misapplied?

6) Is the "Scibaby threat" so dire that normal standards of evidence, investigation, and process, including allowing the accused some chance to speak for themselves, should not be used, or can normal processes deal with Scibaby and other high volume sockpuppets?

Submitted for consideration. ++Lar: t/c 13:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC) ... and revised. ++Lar: t/c 19:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested issues to examine by Polargeo

1) Should the fact that an admin has not edited a Climate Change article give them carte blanche to deal with an editor in this area no matter what the admin's past history with the editor may be? Polargeo (talk) 14:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested Issues to examine by ATren

Is it appropriate for editors with a strong POV to be editing the biographies of people with whom they disagree?
Is it appropriate for editors to add blog-sourced criticism to BLPs, and in particular, when the editors have prior association with those blogs?
Is the disruption caused by individual Scibaby socks so severe that we are willing to block on little or no evidence (i.e. less than 25 non-vandalism edits, no checkuser support)?
Has the zeal of a small group of long term editors, protecting against real or presumed socks, caused a de-facto banning of opposing views in this topic area?
Should editors be held to a basic standard of civility?
Does truth supercede verifiability?

ATren (talk) 14:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Issues suggested by Stephan Schulz

1) Is climate change a field in which "expertise is irrelevant", because Wikipedia only "reflects what reliable sources say" or is climate change a large, complex scientific topic in which a general understanding is necessary to achieve due weight?

2) How can the community deal with high-volume sophisticated socking without causing editor burn-out?

2a) Has the normal SPI process been an undue burden on non-socking editors?

3) Should participation in off-wiki discussions be taken into account when determining good faith and civility? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

4) Is there a concerted off-wiki attempt to influence on-wiki content, and, if yes, how should the community handle it?

5) Is there a off-wiki campaign targeting certain Wikipedia users, and, if yes, how should the community handle it?

6) Per "everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler", is the requirement that each issue should be set forth in as a one-sentence, neutrally worded question something that should be strictly enforced or would we rather not force our competent editors to use their immense grammatical skills and the English language's ability to connect several sentences with conjunctions to write one long and convoluted sentence where two or three short ones would have been simpler and clearer? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC) (last updated 08:38, 17 June 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Issues suggested by ZuluPapa5

1) Should William M. Connolley be topic banned for uncivil disruptions?

2) Should Stephan Schulz be admonished for enabling William M. Connolley's problematic behavior?

3) Was Lar's May 18, 2010 block for 1 hr to William M. Connolley for "Disruptive Editing" for valid and fair reasons?

4) Should GoRight Request for Arbitration, which was closed and lead to the Climate change probation, be reopened in this case?

5) Should Stephan Schultz or others be sanctioned when behavioral evidence is submitted in sock investigations and there is no sock puppet findings, and then they repeatedly continue to make false allegations on unknown editors?

-- Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 19:06, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

-- Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 00:03, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

-- Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 18:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 05:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:56, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Issues suggested by William M. Connolley

1) Are wikipedia's science-of-climate-change articles (headed by global warming) generally held in high or low regard externally? 21:38, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

2) Should editors be held to a basic standard of usefulness? 21:54, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

3) Has the Cl Ch probation unnecessarily tagged large numbers of non-controversial pages? William M. Connolley (talk) 10:30, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

William M. Connolley (talk) 21:54, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Issues suggested by Count Iblis

1) Should the unofficial but de-facto WP:SPOV policy that editors stick to on almost all science related articles, including the global warming related articles, be made official (possibly after it is rewritten by the Arbitrators), for at least the global warming related pages, in order to reduce tensions?

2) Do we need new civility rules to prevent sniping at experts while allowing people to utter justified criticism at each other, so that the experts don't run away?

3) Is there a self-selection effect that contributes to and amplifies problems (i.e. does the Kindergarten like nature of many of the disputes attract editors who are most at ease in such a climate)?

4) Has enforcing civility rules without addressing the core problems made things worse?

5) Do we need periodic external peer review by climate science experts to see if the procedures the editors (and possibly Arbitrators) decide on, do indeed lead to high quality articles?

6) Do we need to study if the commonly used "reliable sources" in Wikipedia (newspapers as well as scientific journals) follow proper editorial policies in case of news reporting on climate change (e.g. when a news report has been debunked, the source retracts the report), to determine what sources can be considered reliable sources for Wikipedia's climate change topics?

Count Iblis (talk) 19:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Issue suggested by Heyitspeter

Do the arbitrators believe that WP:SPOV should be followed as it is written currently?
Does WP:SPOV contradict WP:V?
Are scientists to be considered authorities on metascientific issues at the expense of other reliable sources, e.g., with respect to research ethics, controversies surrounding the politics of global warming, etc.?
How do WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE apply to articles related to global warming?
Does a supportive editing environment yield better article content?
Since the presence of certain editors has a negative effect on this topic area, would a topic ban for these editors improve the editing climate, or is some other response prudent?
With respect to WP:RS, how should we approach sources that stem from scientists who self-describe or are described as skeptics of anthropogenic global warming?
How should we approach sources that stem from nonscientists who self-describe or are described as skeptics of anthropogenic global warming?
Where reliable sources like the New York Times, the BBC and the Wall Street Journal contradict scientists in the field (e.g.), should scientific sources be included at the expense of the other reliable sources?

Issues suggested by TheGoodLocust

What/who is the source of the problem?
How long has this problem been going on?
Have sanctions changed the behavior of the problem contributors?
Have the problem contributors driven away both experienced and new editors from wikipedia?
Has a culture been created in the topic area that promotes incivility and a battleground mentality?
Which side on the debate has benefited from that culture?
If the probation has not changed the culture in the area, then what can cure it?
How do we deal with obstructive practices by a tight group of editors who show up at esoteric articles to defend each other?
Is WP:MEAT being properly applied to long-term contributors in the area?
Should all long term SPAs (or nearly SPAs) be checkusered to weed out socking?
~~Is Hipocrite a sockpuppet of William Connolley - his at-work account?~~

~~Is Hipocrite creating "false flag" socks in order to demonize the opposition and block new editors?~~
Would sanctioning editors for wikilawyering help the situation?
Should editors be able to extensively source articles to their blogs, ex-blogs or the blogs of their friends?
Similarly, should editors be able to extensively source articles to the scientific papers of their friends, while excluding the viewpoints of other scientists?
At what point, in % of edits, do revisions, reverts, and removals of other's edits become intentionally obstructive?
Should editors with high %'s of such behavior describe themselves and each other as "high quality contributors?"
What dispute resolution processes should be used to resolve any conflicts on article content?
Would extending the probation to cover content fix obstructionism or codify it?
Are the sides accurately described as skeptics vs. non-skeptics?
Since the majority of people who oppose the long-term global warming group actually believe in global warming why do they oppose them?
And why does the global warming group insist on calling those editors "skeptics" or "scientifically illiterate" if they hold the same beliefs?
Does William Connolley have close relationships with certain controversial scientists?
Do such relationships motivate him to promote their work and protect their reputations?
Have his actions demonstrated such activity (e.g. using wikipedia to increase google page ranking of their websites)?
Finally, would topic banning the top editors in the area improve the situation?

Issues suggested by Short Brigade Harvester Boris

1) Are repeated declarations of a desire to "level the playing field" more favorably toward certain editors and less favorably toward others consistent with the role of a neutral and uninvolved administrator?

2) Is the declaration of a specific content position while engaged in enforcement consistent with the role of a neutral and uninvolved administrator?

3) Are repeated characterizations of editors as a "cabal," "cadre" and similar terms while engaged in enforcement with those editors consistent with the role of a neutral and uninvolved administrator?

4) Are personal insults such as "socially inept" directed toward editors with whom an administrator is engaged in enforcement consistent with the role of a neutral and uninvolved administrator?

5) On articles related to scientific topics, what weight should be given to views that have little or no credibility in the relevant scientific community but are widely promoted in blogs and the popular press?

6) How should Wikipedia respond to external criticism?

7) Should responses to external criticism vary according to the source; e.g., academic evaluations or straight news reporting versus partisan commentary?

8) How should op-eds and similar commentary be used as sources?

9) May editors deliberately insert or retain information that is attributable to an otherwise reliable source, but which is unambiguously known to be erroneous (e.g., misstatement of the author of a book) under Wikipedia's policy of "verifiability, not truth"?

10) Is global warming primarily a scientific topic that has sociopolitical and economic consequences, or is it primarily a political topic that is to some extent informed by science?

11) In the interest of fairness, should WP:WEIGHT be abandoned in favor of a perspective that treats all views presented in any reliable source as equally valid, regardless of their proportion those sources?

Issues suggested by KimDabelsteinPetersen

1) Where does BLP start and stop with regards to professional/scientific controversy?

2) Are comments (by another published expert) [critical or non-critical] on published papers by a scientist considered BLP material?

3) Is there a difference between material/content/text placed in a regular article, and a biography, with regards to the materials BLP or non-BLP status?

4) When considering content on different articles with differing amounts of published material both in time and distribution, should there be a set standard for how much neutral/praising/criticising material there is? (both in distribution and length?)

5) If a reference can be shown to be factually incorrect (by using more reliable sources), what consequences does this have for its state of reliability/weight?

6) Do books published by political commentators automatically count as reliable and weighty sources to science?

7) If a political advocate writes a book or makes a film about a topic, does the book/film count as opinion or as a general reliable source (to science or otherwise)?

8) When dealing with a top-level summary article on a very large topic, is it considered incivil to point out that discussion and possible inclusion of a "news/blog issue of the day" doesn't belong, but instead should go to a sub-article?

9) Is it incivil to point out that WP:TALK seems to disallows general discussion on a topic?

10) What, if any, measures can be taken so that article talkpages do not become soapboxes/forums for the "issue of the day" within a topic-area?

11) Would a welcoming committee consisting of bipartisan editors for a topic-area be useful for catching newbie editors, on their talkpage (pointing out problematic behaviour/editing) before making mistakes ending up in grief?

Question raised by BozMo

1) Should Social Inclusiveness have equal or greater or lower priority than content quality?

2) What should our approach be to the "attitude" which is not quite uncivil, but goes along the lines of "why should well qualified contributing editors reasonably have to spend a large proportion of their time civilly educating a rotating series of much less qualified virtually non-contributing editors about fairly basic errors/meanings", even assuming that we agree that the judgements therein are merited.

--BozMo talk 17:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Issues suggested by WavePart

1) Should Hipocrite be prohibited from filing further requests for users to be blocked as sock puppets?

2) Given the controversial nature of climate change articles, and the tendency for bad faith assumptions to run rampant from one side toward the "other" side, should all non-scibaby-checkusered sock puppet blocks be accompanied by specific evidence justifying the block as a sock puppet?

WavePart (talk) 06:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Issues suggested by ScottyBerg

1) Can administrators be considered "uninvolved" in a particular matter if they have a history of personal animosity toward the editors involved, even if they have not edited within that subject area?

2) Are existing enforcement mechanisms adequate in dealing with the set of circumstances presented by the global warming articles?

3) To what extent are administrators to be held accountable for statements, wherever made, reflecting on the integrity of editors and groups of editors?

ScottyBerg (talk) 18:10, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:ScienceApologist

Proposed principles

When the science is settled

1) When the science is settled on a question, as in the case of the reality of anthropogenic global warming, Wikipedia articles make it clear that the science is settled.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by others:

Some of the most heated controversy in global warming articles concerns the extent to which the considerable doubts about global warming expressed in popular media, public opinion polls, and by congressional representatives should be covered. I suggest that while such sentiments cannot be described as science per se, the fact that AGW has engendered significant political conflict as few scientific theories have is itself notable.

Comment removed [1]

Settled science is an important concept when considering WP:WEIGHT. The difference between a novel but speculative suggestion like string theory and a settled and vast consensus understanding such as "AGW" means that when discussing the scientific understanding of the idea it is important to keep in mind that vocal minorities buttressed by non-expert naysayers do not dominate the balance of the discussion. Tiny minority ideas are generally excluded. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:29, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with SA, but disagree that Some of the most heated controversy in global warming articles concerns the extent to which the considerable doubts... should be covered. is *currently* true. In fact the science-of-GW articles have been little troubled for some time now. Where is this dispute occurring? Perhaps I have missed it William M. Connolley (talk) 09:56, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that if the pro-science groups were to be removed from global warming articles within no time the naysayers would move in and set-up shop. This has generally been the case in most Wikipedia science articles even though we have WP:FRINGE, WP:WEIGHT, WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:RS to guard against such activity. Policies and guidelines need users to enforce them. WP:BATTLEGROUNDS do not disappear just because the article has achieved stability. See Talk:Big Bang for struggles with my most "controversial" theory that isn't controversial at all among the WP:EXPERTS. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:02, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a false dichotomy. Your group does not represent "science," nor have the job of being the "defenders of science." They are not the only "pro-science" editors willing to work in that area, and are not in the position to judge who is "pro-science" or not. On the contrary, I argue that it is this kind of attitude that has fostered the battleground mentality on the page, reducing involvement by those who might otherwise assist with keeping it accurate. Secondly, this same argument was made in regards to Intelligent Design, and has not been borne out as the case when many of the problematic group in that area left or moved on to different topics. This slippery slope argument is just FUD. The reality is that a less toxic atmosphere attracts a variety of editors, some of whom will be fringe proponents, but more of whom will support an article in line with accepted science. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 20:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The groups don't determine what is and is not scientifically relevant, the sources do. To that end, I see a major distinction between groups who denigrate scientific sources or claim that they don't apply and those who use them in these articles. The claim that "many" of the "problematic group in [intelligent design] left or move on" is not true. Most of the editors who were acting as gatekeepers there (including myself) are still active there. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:06, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed they do, but very little else. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:38, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This comment is obscure. You appear to be suggesting that, say, the global warming article contains little more than the assertion that the science is settled. That assertion is blatantly false, so you can't have meant that: what did you mean? William M. Connolley (talk) 09:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, for example the global warming article contains little more than the scientific communities consensus on how it works, how it came to be, how it (potentially) effects the planet and the life therein, and how these issues are being addressed; there is negligable coverage of the ongoing debate/campaign promoted by skeptics and denialists, even though it gets considerable general media coverage. This is in contrast, for example, to the article regarding abortion, where not only are the medical, historical, and legal aspects covered by reference to the professionally supported facts, but clearly notes those opinions and their rationales that are opposed to the practice - regardless of the fact that they are not grounded in sustainable scientific grounds. I give this as an example of an article upon a subject that is more than simply scientific explanation, but a balanced view of the issues also. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Abortion is a medical procedure, not a scientific fact. Better to compare this to evolution where the controversy is generally confined to creation-evolution controversy where it belongs. Global warming's cause by human actions is a scientific fact that should not be swept under the rug by media hype. ScienceApologist (talk) 1:04 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4)

I agree that abortion is a poor analogy. A better one would be nuclear fission which does not trouble itself with the politics of nuclear power or nuclear bombs, but leaves those to political articles William M. Connolley (talk) 17:55, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The analogy is that it is the issue surrounding the subject (AGW/abortion) that provides the discussion, not the uses made of the subject - such as fission as weapons. The creation/evolution debate is perhaps a more relevant counter, but only as much as the abortion argument, as that is more a matter of substituting science with religious belief where AGW is more argued on the basis of whether the science is being conducted properly and the results correctly interpreted. Oh, and abortion is as much (and historically was) a biological process as a medical procedure. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Global warming denialism is politically motivated: it's no more about "whether science is being conducted properly and the result correctly interpreted" than creationism. The same canards are trotted out by both groups, but their motivations are clear and neither are based in scientific inquiry. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is this proposal relevant to a dispute? For example, how will we know when the science is settled on anthropogenic global warming seems beyond the scope for ArbCom action now. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I endorse this principle. This goes to the heart of this issue, and ZuluPapa5 raises an interesting point: does Wikipedia as an institution need to recognize that the science on global warming is settled? Personally I believe as a layman that yes, the science is settled. That may explain why the scientific articles seem to be least controversial, while the ones on the fringes are the most contentious. The corollary is that skeptics represent a fringe point of view that are generally to be granted less weight and less deference in determination of article slant where scientific issues are paramount. The balancing act comes in articles where the science is not paramount. To what extent should this principle be reflected in articles on issues and people impacting on global warming? That seems to be the crux of the matter. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed answer .... Wikipedia will know when the science is settled when there are no longer NPOV disputes in the articles. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 15:59, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Baloney. As someone who is very active in these areas I can tell you that for every settled instance of science we can find quirky and wrong Wikipedia editors who promote "NPOV disputes" on the topic. Think perpetual motion violates the laws of thermodynamics? There's a number of Wikipedians who don't. Think that the speed of light is constant? There are a number of Wikipedians who don't. No, Wikipedia's open-door policy suffers fools gladly and any crank with a computer can perpetuate a "NPOV dispute". The reliable sources external to Wikipedia are what dictate the foundational aspect of settled science. Naysayers can say "nay" all they want, but they should not get a chance to railroad Wikipedia into perpetual conflict or ambiguous hemming and hawing in the articles as you propose. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:04, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with what I take to be the intent of this proposal, but as it is currently worded it violates WP:V. Can you rephrase?--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We can verify the settled nature of the science by looking at the IPCC report. See the second point below. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I suppose I don't agree with the intent of your proposal then, insofar as it is revealed here. You're moving from x is correct to x is verifiable (i.e., only the science as summarized by the IPCC is settled --> only the science as summarized by the IPCC reports is verifiable). That is an inversion of WP:V. WP:V asks for verifiability and that's all. If there are two sources, the IPCC and some other RS in conflict with it, we don't choose the correct one, as you suggest here. Instead we represent both, as per WP:V. That is why your principal is insupportable as per WP:V. (Before commenting please read or reread the links I've provided.)--Heyitspeter (talk) 22:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are required to weight heavily against the erroneous and unreliable protestations of global warming denialists. We can verify that they believe things that are incorrect, but we can also verify that they are incorrect. Since we are able to do that, to pretend that there exists any sort of quid-pro-quo is disingenuous and contrary to the respectability of building Wikipedia as a mainstream reference work. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:36, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it being advocated here that the ArbCom decides for Wikipedia if the science is settle on AGW? Wow, you better start cracking open the books Committee, you need to be absolutely sure before you decide on this one. Cla68 (talk) 03:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not a difficult fact to verify and it would serve as a useful tool for defending Wikipedia from the coordinated attacks of denialists. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - True enough, but that's not the major problem here. ++Lar: t/c 19:46, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I disagree. I think that this is a major issue that causes more consternation than necessary. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:05, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources

2) Wikipedia follows the most reliable sources, and those sources dealing with the science of global warming agree with the IPCC assessment.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by others:

The reliable sources relating to the scientific consensus, yes. The reliable sources relating to the continuing debate not so much. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:41, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment removed [2]

The critiques are all marginal. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:30, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Most" but not all. Many reliable sources are critical of the IPCC and a few, at least one reliable source has presented a consensus view on the science, which would could threaten the IPCC's monopoly view. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Views trumpeted by political organizations and promoted by a tiny group of itinerant scientists do not belong promoted at Wikipedia and have been duly impeached as being unreliable. Let the people who want to change the settled science fight it out externally, but do not let them have a soapbox in Wikipedia. WP:CBALL. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This may be true for sources related to the science, but is not relevant to articles where scientific principles are not paramount. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:57, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly every article on the subject of global warming touches on the scientific facts of global warming and at every turn anti-science proponents have attacked those facts as they've been presented. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just thought the language was a little over-broad. Perhaps you could rephrase it? ScottyBerg (talk) 14:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. Does the new change help? ScienceApologist (talk) 15:11, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it does. It's a small change but it shades the meaning helpfully. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does not recognize the concept of a "most reliable source," and it specifically states that we should not simply "follow" the statements of a single reliable source where there are other conflicting sources.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RS is very clear that we evaluate sources through corroboration, reputation, and scholarship. To that end, the IPCC source is impeccable and the "conflicting sources" are unreliable. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument neither rebuts my statement nor supports your conclusion that "conflicting sources" are unreliable.--Heyitspeter (talk) 22:12, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since the IPCC source is more heavily corroborated, has a far superior reputation, and is documented to rely on the best scholarship available in spite of the uncorroborated, disreptuable, and unscholarly protestations of its detractors, we use it as the most reliable source and the other "conflicting sources" are denigrated according to their lack of quality in this regard. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:38, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to appeal, The IPCC is highly notable and worthy of Wikipedia inclusion; however, they self-publish their synthesized political opinions with little or no objective editorial oversight from outside and independent third parties. This is offensive to Wikipedia:POORSRC. Errors have been found in the IPCC's reports. The IPCC claims authority where Wikipidia demands NPOV with other sources. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 00:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems it has been guessed that some people may be making arguments such as that around now. A study published by the US NAS just today "use[s] an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that (i) 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of ACC [Anthropogenic Climate Change] outlined by the [IPCC] Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and (ii) the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers."[3] In plain English, that is very damning to the position you are arguing.[4] --Nigelj (talk) 01:12, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did any of them have an opportunity to provide editorial oversight to the IPCC? Who, if anyone, provides editorial oversight to the IPCC? Best I can tell, the IPCC answers to no one but themselves, as far as promoting the opinions prescribed in their mission. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This kind of argumentation is extremely anti-science and essentially amounts to the canard "Since peer review is done by scientists, it isn't independent." This discussion is over, as far as I can tell. The anti-scientific POV that you continue to push is fairly obnoxious. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bit unhelpful of a comment. ++Lar: t/c 19:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that ZP5's comments are unhelpful. Do you? ScienceApologist (talk) 23:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The primary issue in the topic area is not with the science articles themselves. ++Lar: t/c 14:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter. The science is relevant to all articles on the subject. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course. But the science is not at issue. Not seriously. It's settled what the current scientific consensus is. The issue is the behavior of the editors in this area and what the cause for that behavior is. And the most problematic articles are ones that have less connection to the science. I gave examples elsewhere (Skeptic bios, popular culture items like Gore Effect, news coverage and what to call controversies such as Climategate, and the like). These have little or nothing to do with the science or the settled questions. ++Lar: t/c 19:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These issues you list have a lot to do with the science. Almost all these items are directly relevant to the fact that there exists IPCC consensus and a certain group of editors are working to obscure, denigrate, or hide that relevant fact. The denialists seem content to claim that because they deny this consensus is true, therefore it is appropriate to attack editors who write sourced text about this in articles connected to it. And, yes, the articles you outline are connected to that. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed findings of fact

Editors with a political bias against the scientific facts relating to global warming

1) Editors with a political bias against the scientific facts relating to global warming have hounded scientists and neutral editors to the point of driving some away and causing the general quality of global warming articles to deteriorate.

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Comment removed [5]

How do you define an "editor with a political bias against the scientific facts"? The global warming issue is based on politicized "scientific consensus". ( Scientific consensus is not by itself a scientific argument, and it is not part of the scientific method.) Can you give an example where an editor's political motivation has violated the principles in wp:5 ... can you show how an editor has advanced an agenda that precludes other notable and objectivity established positions? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:37, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors who are global warming denialists routinely attack climate scientists in an effort to gain an upper hand in editing articles to conform to an anti-scientific POV. You have done this yourself. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:56, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really, how do you see my views as "anti-scientific"? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The diff speaks for itself. I offer a full deconstruction of it for anyone who wishes me to explain how anti-scientific it is off-line. The details of the specious, erroneous, and downright incorrect insinuations you make there are irrelevant to this particular line, but suffice-to-say, it is evidence of a concerted effort to promote an anti-scientific POV whether you realize it or not. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by User:LessHeard vanU

Proposed principles

Wikipedia is a General Purpose reference work

1) Wikipedia is an open editing project, designed to produce an encyclopedia that is accessible to all and to cover as wide a range and breadth of topics as possible. It does not confine itself to narrow definitions of article matter, and only concerns itself that articles are notable, referenced and accurate.

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Trying for a standard wording that reflects the nature of a project that is open to all to edit, constrained only by basic principles in constructing the encyclopedia. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:24, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of a General Purpose Encyclopedia is to educate the general public

2) Wikipedia's content is directed toward the layman seeking information upon various issues relating to a subject, and therefore needs to reflect all aspects in respect of the subject that may be raised by the readership.

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Further to the above, noting the requirement to focus subject matter upon the expectations of the readership rather than defining it by the majority expert viewpoint only. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:28, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What concerns me about this principle is that it can be misunderstood to justify excessive inclusion of fringe points of view that may tend to mislead the reader. In the article on the "Climategate" issue, for instance, we are currently debating how much detail we need in the lead, when those details are media reports that were repudiated by subsequent findings of investigators. We can actually mislead the reader by being too focused on being indiscriminate in the information that we provide. There seems to be a continual tension between those two aspects of Wikipedia: "fringe" and "inclusiveness." ScottyBerg (talk) 14:02, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This principle is in direct contradiction to the provisions of WP:V and WP:NPOV#WEIGHT. The arbitrators have generally resisted proposals for unilateral change to major site policies, but perhaps they will relent in this case. This leaves aside the very major point of how we will somehow divine all of the "aspects in respect of the subject that may be raised by the readership." Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is in contravention, since legitimate questions ("What is the effect of a raise in sea temperatures?") will be covered in topics under WP:DUE and frivolous ones ("Why do scientists have beards if the weather is getting warmer?") will not - and the answers to the serious concerns will be referenced. The issue I am attempting to address is the type of question exampled by "Why does Dr X think that the effects of rainforest depletion is overstated" having no answer because it is the scientific communities considered opinion that Dr (of dentistry) X's concerns are so ill founded they need not be addressed or indeed noted. A good encyclopedia should note Dr X's position neutrally, assuming that it has had enough exposure to indicate notability, while noting also that it is considered marginal by the scientific community (and having links to related articles where the scientific consensus is explained). Thus the reader is educated as to why Dr X makes that comment, and its relationship to the wider and contrary viewpoint held. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In most cases it is impossible to note fact that Dr. X's opinion is "considered marginal by the scientific community." Experience has shown that such attempts will be rejected as WP:SYN unless a reliable source has stated that "Dr. X's opinion is considered marginal by the scientific community" in those exact words. The pattern is that individuals who are mentioned even once in a local newspaper get their opinion presented unchallenged, because they are not sufficiently prominent or credible to have drawn a formal rejection in a reliable source. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that that is an issue, but the brevity of Dr X's article, and the source provided, should give a reader some indication of its value, expecially if they click the link to Rainforest and find Dr X's position is either solitary or not noted at all when viewed with the rest of the content regarding rainforest depletion. Neutrality in reporting, like democracy, might give an appearance of untoward recognition of extremely minority viewpoint but, like democracy, that ideal should not be sacrificed for reason that it is unrepresentative of a majority or significant minority. Also, by deciding what should be included even if it otherwise satisfies inclusion criteria does mean that WP is advocating certain viewpoints as being the only legitimate ones - the antithesis of neutrality. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:11, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I as a layman would be concerned about including Dr. X's viewpoint, unless the article clearly indicates that he represents a fringe viewpoint. I am sure that most casual readers would not pursue the matter further by clicking on other articles. That presents a problem of misinforming or misleading a person with limited time coming to Wikipedia for some quick background on a subject. If the article is brief, then it may be preferable to omit his view entirely. I don't think we have an obligation to include all points of view, and that's not my reading of the relevant policy. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:26, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is broken. Some of wiki's pages are directed towards the general public, some are clearly not. Mandating that *all* pages should be written for the general public would be a very bad idea William M. Connolley (talk) 14:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How does one determine "the expectations of the readership"? Should we engage a polling organization? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with you guys on this. If the articles are not written for the general public, it would open the door to fringe opinions on the grounds that a particular article is for a more technical audience that can distinguish between the fringe and the non-fringe. Rest assured that laypeople like myself are in no position to do so. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SBHB, to determine the expectations of the readership just look at how Wikipedia describes itself. From WP:NOT PAPER "A Wikipedia article should not be presented on the assumption that the reader is well versed in the topic's field. Introductory language in the lead and initial sections of the article should be written in plain terms and concepts that can be understood by any literate reader of Wikipedia without any knowledge in the given field before advancing to more detailed explanations of the topic. While wikilinks should be provided for advanced terms and concepts in that field, articles should be written on the assumption that the reader will not or cannot follow these links, instead attempting to infer their meaning from the text.". Weakopedia (talk) 14:54, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we're at apples and oranges here. Your reply deals with the level of presentation and I fully agree with it. Our articles often are harder to read than they need to be, not only because of technical detail but also because of the writing style. But LHvU's proposal has to do with content, i.e., "all aspects in respect of the subject that may be raised by the readership." Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I understand your concern on that, I see no problem if the policy concerning fringe positions is strictly adhered to. Laypeople have a special need to know which positions are fringe and which are not. Re "all aspects in respect of the subject that may be raised by the readership," I don't see a problem if it is clearly delineated which views reflect the scientific consensus and which are not. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:05, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Articles may be more than a definition of a subject

3) An article may be more than the sum of its technical description, its history, and its application(s) (if any). Attitudes and opinion toward a subject, favourable, unfavourable, neutral, historical and current, may be included where these meet the criteria of notability and reliable references and exposure in the wider world (and thus readership). Related content may be included where relevant and provides greater understanding.

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Clarifying that content is not dictated by narrow definitions, but should reflect per WP:DUE all aspects relating to the subject matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:24, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, the editors of an article on a scientific topic may decide not to include views expressed outside the realm of peer reviewed science if they feel that this would provide for less understanding. This decision is an almost invisible rule on almost all science related articles. It is "invisible", because it almost never has to be applied explicitely on most science articles (because the popular media rarely writes about, say, special relativity), but see here for a rare case where it is applied. In case of an article on a scientific topic that is controversial politically, it is even more important to apply this rule if we want to report the scientific facts accurately. Count Iblis (talk) 14:59, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV is a distillation of all notable viewpoints, per WP:Due weight

4) Noting that while a majority viewpoint, or an expert consensus upon the subject, should have prominence, that all reliably sourced viewpoints, with regard to compliance with WP:Due weight, should be recorded for an article to be considered neutrally written.

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Making the point that a majority or consensus viewpoint is not of itself necessarily the Neutral Point of View; that dissenting or variant pov's may be included in presenting a NPOV. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:08, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is essentially a null finding. No-one disagrees with it William M. Connolley (talk) 22:44, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that to be the basis for principles (but the proposed findings are below, anyhoo). LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not seriously disputed as far as I can tell. The problem is in deciding what constitutes "due weight" for each view. Specifically, for scientific topics is it the weight accorded in the relevant scientific literature, or the weight accorded in newspapers, blog postings and soundbite journalism (as you have argued elsewhere)? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 23:06, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors, including WMC, have repeatedly removed dissenting POVs from articles in the CC topic area in tension with this principal. It certainly is disputed.--Heyitspeter (talk) 01:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]}. And note that "in tension" is fine - disagreements amongst editors of good faith frequently arise as to what is NPOV. "in contradiction" would not be fine, were you able to find examples William M. Connolley (talk) 09:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The determination of the primary genre of a topic is guided by general public perception

5) The consensus what heading a topic may fall under is dictated by its regard in the outside world.

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The genesis of this proposed principle has been crystallised by the differing viewpoints expressed within this page, expressed around the assumption that AGW is primarily a science topic. Although seemingly in a minority here, I wonder if this assumption can be sustained outside of both WP (currently) and the AGW "scientific" - both pro consensus and skeptic/denialist - communities. If the general public, and therefore the likely major readership, tend toward the opinion that it is a scientific discussion then the WP:Due weight must largely reflect the scientific consensus. If the potential readership consider it a matter of political, economic and social import then the debate largely advocated by the skeptic or denialist pov then those views should be accorded the WP:Due weight within that arena. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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6)

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Proposed findings of fact

Presentation of the scientific consensus regarding AGW within related articles is excellent

1) The scientific consensus in respect of AGW/CC is clearly, fairly and consistently applied throughout Wikipedia, being well sourced and referenced.

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Obvious. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Presentation of skeptic or denialist viewpoints regarding AGW within related articles is deficient

2) The coverage of viewpoints not according to the scientific consensus in respect of AGW/CC is patchy, inconsistent, marginalised, frequently exorcised, deprecated, and in some cases non existent, regardless of the sources and references used and the application of WP:NPOV and WP:DUE.

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I feel that the weight of evidence will draw the the conclusion that there is a bias toward not including content that is contrary to the scientific consensus within major subject articles, of marginalising skeptic or denialist viewpoints to articles specifically relating to those issues, permitting the inclusion of contrary viewpoints toward skeptic/denial content that is not reflected in relation to scientific consensus content, the more stringent examination and challenging of sources, and of greater scrutiny of the editing ethos of contributors of denialist/skeptic inclined content than there is of those editing to the scientific consensus. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see even a trace of evidence for this. The main global warming article contains a section on solar variation, mentioning the hypothesis by Svensmark. And then we have an article dedicated to solar variation which contains a big section on global warming and a big paragraph on solar variation theory. Last but not least, there is a wiki article on global warming controversy, containing many statements by sceptics that are not propperly rebutted, because scientists are not going to rebut every flawed statement made by sceptics.

So, clearly the views of sceptics are overrepresented on Wikipedia. This is consistent with the contents of some other popular wikipedia science articles. E.g. the article on dark matter contains a rather large section on alternative theories, even though it is a rather small part of the literature. The only difference between climate change articles and the other science articles is that in the latter case the contrarian points of view are part of the regular scientific discourse. Count Iblis (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is factually incorrect. Global warming mentions alternative hypotheses such as solar variation and cosmic rays in much greater proportion than their appearance in reliable sources, as do various sub-articles. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:27, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per CI and Boris: this finding is factually incorrect (but may go some way to explaining LHVU's biases) William M. Connolley (talk) 17:51, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Deficient in comparison to what? I suspect (and I may submit evidence to show) that Wikipedia actually extends far more coverage to minoritarian claims about climate change than other comparable general-purpose reference works. MastCell ^Talk 17:38, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not quite this simple. There are a few credible scientists who hold contrary opinions, but more than that, there are leaders in the political, social, and economic communities who hold contrary opinions for various reasons. Trying to introduce any of these viewpoints into an AGW article in Wikipedia is often extremely difficult because of POV-warring by a group of editors who mainly edits those articles. Cla68 (talk) 03:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A sort of general answer; I think people a confusing WP:DUE with the number of alternative references presented in an article - and it is an issue with encyclopedia writing generally. If there is a statement that "Water is accepted to be wet" then we will likely use one or two cites, to very reliable sources (usually those accepted as being authorative), but there may be very many alternative sources that all, in different ways, argue with that statement. Just because there are many "dryist" references to the couple of moist references does not mean some dry commentary needs to be culled to give balance. Those cites that are reliable are used, to demonstrate the breadth of discussion surrounding the dampicity of water - but it should not take away the generally accepted notion that water (at common temperatures and pressures found on Earth) is wet. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

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Proposals by ZuluPapa5

Proposed principles

The basic foundation for civil editors to create a free and open NPOV encyclopedia

1) Assume Good Faith

Assume good faith in the absence of evidence to the contrary. This keeps the project workable in the face of many widely variant points of view and avoids inadvertent personal attacks and disruption through creation of an unfriendly editing environment, and keeps with our long-standing tradition of being open and welcoming.

2) Civility/disruption/reasonableness

Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably in their dealings with other users and to observe the principles of assuming good faith, civility, and the writers' rules of engagement. If disputes arise, users are expected to use dispute resolution procedures instead of making personal attacks.
Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. This is considered editing in bad faith. State your point, but don't attempt to illustrate it experimentally.
Editing in a manner so as to intentionally provoke other editors is a form of trolling and goes against established Wikipedia policies, as well as the spirit of Wikipedia and the will of its editors.
Insulting and intimidating other users harms the community by creating a hostile environment. All users are instructed to refrain from this activity. Admins are instructed to use good judgement while enforcing this policy. All users are encouraged to remove personal attacks on sight.
The Wiki software and Wikipedia policy anticipates that disputes may arise regarding the wording and content of Wikipedia articles. When disputes arise editors are expected to engage in research, discussion with other users, and make reasonable compromises regarding the wording and content of Wikipedia articles.

3) Consensus

As put forward in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through the use of polite discussion, in an attempt to develop a consensus regarding proper application of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines such as Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Surveys and the Request for comment process are designed to assist consensus-building when normal talk page communication has not worked.
In cases where compromise cannot be reached, users are expected to follow the Dispute resolution process.

4) Edit wars

Edit wars or revert wars are usually considered harmful, because they cause ill-will between users and negatively destabilize articles. Editors are encouraged to explore alternate methods of dispute resolution, such as negotiation, surveys, requests for comment, mediation, or arbitration. When disagreements arise, users are expected to adhere to the three-revert rule and discuss their differences rationally rather than reverting ad nauseam. "Slow revert wars," where an editor persistently reverts an article but technically adheres to the three-revert rule are also strongly discouraged and are unlikely to constitute working properly with others.

5) Neutral point of view (and associated principles)

Wikipedia's neutral point-of-view (NPOV) policy contemplates inclusion of all significant points of view regarding any subject on which there is division of opinion.
Wikipedia articles should contain information regarding the subject of the article; they are not a platform for advocacy regarding one or another point of view regarding the topic.
Injection of personal viewpoints regarding the subject of an article is inappropriate and not to be resolved by debate among the editors of an article, but referenced from reputable outside resources. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
A strong point of view expressed elsewhere on a subject does not necessarily mean POV-pushing editing on Wikipedia; that can only be determined by the edits to Wikipedia..
Aggressive point-of-view editing can produce widespread reactions as editors attempt to combat an outbreak of it, mobilizing others to join the fray. While this creates the appearance of disorder, it is better seen as an attempt to deal with a refractory problem.
The Wikipedia policy of editing from a neutral point of view, a central and non-negotiable principle of Wikipedia, applies to situations where there are conflicting viewpoints and contemplates that significant viewpoints regarding such situations all be included in as fair a manner as possible..
Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy contemplates including only significant published viewpoints regarding a subject. It does not extend to novel viewpoints developed by Wikipedia editors which have not been independently published in other venues.
Neutral point of view as defined on Wikipedia contemplates inclusion of all significant perspectives regarding a subject. While majority perspectives may be favored by more detailed coverage, minority perspectives should also receive sufficient coverage. No perspective is to be presented as the "truth"; all perspectives are to be attributed to their advocates. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
Wikipedia articles are edited from a Wikipedia:Neutral point of view which contemplates that all significant viewpoints regarding a matter shall be appropriately represented. Where necessary, contributors must be willing to "write for the enemy".
All contributions should be written from the NPOV. (See Wikipedia:NPOV.)

6) Original research

No original research.
Wikipedia is not the place for publishing original work or development of Neologisms, Wikipedia:No original research.
Wikipedia is not a venue for publishing of otherwise unpublished original research.
Wikipedia is not a vehicle for original research. (See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, expounded in Wikipedia:No original research.)

7) Ownership of articles

(a) Wikipedia pages do not have owners or custodians who control edits to them. Instead, they are "owned" by the community at large, which comes to a consensus version by means of discussion, negotiation, and/or voting. (b) This is a crucial part of Wikipedia as an open-content encylopedia. See Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages

8) Personal attacks

Personal attacks are expressly prohibited because they make Wikipedia a hostile environment for editors, and thereby damage Wikipedia both as an encyclopedia (by losing valued contributors) and as a wiki community (by discouraging reasoned discussion). Wikipedia editors should conduct their relationship with other editors with courtesy, and must avoid responding in kind when personally attacked.
Personal attacks which occur during the course of Arbitration either on the Arbitration pages or on the talk pages of the arbitrators fall within the jurisdiction of the Arbitration.
Personal attacks are not excused or justified by offers of demonstration of their truth.

9) Provocation

When another user is having trouble due to editing conflicts or a dispute with another user it is inappropriate to provoke them as it is predictable that the situation will escalate. Provocation of a new or inexperienced user by an experienced and sophisticated user is especially inappropriate.

10) Staying cool when the editing gets hot

When editing on highly conflicted topics, editors should not allow themselves to be goaded into ill-considered edits and policy violations. Administrators in particular have a responsibility to set an example by staying cool when the editing gets hot.

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Generally, I am generally in agreement with the general points - but I am ballywhacked if I am going to detail where I agree more or less with a specific point under this layout... LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As LHvU. Also, is this a cut and paste from some other case? (it reads like it) For one this long maybe just give the diff link and suggest endorsement. Because this stuff is motherhood and apple pie around here, or is supposed to be anyway. I reformatted the heading, please revert me if you disagree, ZP5, or remove this comment if you are OK with it ++Lar: t/c 19:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

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Proposals by User:William M. Connolley

Proposed principles

Avoiding article bloat

1) WP:NPOV and WP:RS does not mean that articles should bloat to include all information. Wikipedia is better served by discrimination: when articles become large, easily identifiable sub-blocks should be split off from the main article. In the case of global warming such sub-blocks include politics of global warming, global warming controversy, climate sensitivity, attribution of recent climate change, temperature record, urban heat island and many more, which correctly allow the main article to focus on an overview of the core science William M. Connolley (talk) 17:59, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Wonderful. I suggest joining and working nicely with others here at the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Environment/Climate_change_task_force to effectively implement. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:26, 21 June 2010 (UTC) This Wikipedia:Article_size is a good guideline should any disputes ever make it up the dispute resolution path. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:51, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Negating bloat is not reason to violate WP:NPOV in removing content which is adversarial to the standing consensus on a subject, but only where content is nonsustainable in any context or repeats other content. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC) Addendum; Why should Science of Anthropological Global Warming not be a sub-block of Global Warming, which would be the introductory article for all aspects of the subject? LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as "science of anthropogenic global warming" - there is a science of climate change though. The anthropogenic part is a conclusion, not a preclusion. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, LHvU's Science of Anthropological Global Warming could be useful. An anthropological approach to the topic dealing with public perceptions, group behavior, etc. would be interesting. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that LHvU had in mind can be found at Global_warming#External_forcings, which has the following sub-articles: greenhouse effect, radiative forcing, atmospheric CO2, solar variation and global dimming. People keep asserting that the global warming article (to pick an example) has too much of the science and not enough of the 'other' views. The problem is that most people don't bother to actually look at the article. The GW article is 3833 words long (according the the DYK-check tool). But the "Views on global warming" alone is 516 words long. Almost 15% of an article that is, after all, about a scientific topic, is dedicated to politics. Another 373 words are dedicated to "Responses to global warming" - policy, in other words. About a quarter of the article, in other words, is not about science. A further 522 words are dedicated to the effects of global warming, which is, of course, a distinct topic. So not even counting the lead, the "science of global warming", even in the broadest sense, only gets a little more than half the space in the article about global warming which remains primarily a scientific topic.

The problem isn't that science is given too much space. The problem is that certain editors want to insert a paragraph into the article each time a new "skeptical" Op-Ed comes out in the Wall Street Journal or their favourite blog. And spinning off the science into its own article won't solve the problem, since the "skeptics" claim that their works is also science and deserves to be treated as if it were mainstream science. Guettarda (talk) 06:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scope

2) Wikipedia is an entire reference encyclopaedia and is not aimed exclusively at the general public. Where the core of a subject is too complex for the general public this should be handled by creating an introductory article rather than dumbing down a complex subjects William M. Connolley (talk) 18:05, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The general public is the primary audience, by far. I'm not sure that there are other audiences, actually. Or if there are, that they would not be far better served by peer reviewed publications rather than one open to all and sundry to edit. That said, the use of introductory and overview articles with backing articles in greater depth or of greater complexity is a core organizing principle here regardless of the validity of the first sentence. ++Lar: t/c 14:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a primary reference and an educational tool Wikipedia cannot inform experts in their subject, but only condense what is reported as written by experts in a manner which non experts may understand. Experts may use the sources referenced to test their knowledge, if required. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:46, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rubbish, the global warming article dumbs down or obfuscates key portions of the AGW theory (because they don't make sense) and downright lies or promotes myths in the lead (e.g. that storms with increase in frequency AND strength [6] [7], increased desertification (the opposite in fact)). It is written to be as alarmist as possible and you know it. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Global warming does not claim "that storms with increase in frequency AND strength", either in the lede nor elsewhere. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:10, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I never said it did, I said it promoted the myth of it through implication. The lead says, "Other likely effects include changes in the frequency and intensity of extreme weather events..." The implication of that sentence, in the lead, is clear due to the myth Al Gore promoted about Katrina being due to global warming. I notice you don't mention anything about the lead saying desertification will occur when increased CO2 will probably cause forests to reclaim some desert area. These are just a few examples - the articles are full of errors, omissions, and obfuscations that lay people wouldn't notice - it is easy to promote myths, but much harder to dispel them. This is especially true due to how often some of these myths have been repeated by an alarmist media. TheGoodLocust (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you wrote "and downright lies or promotes myths in the lead" - so is your "downright lie" just hyperbole, or does it apply to one of your examples? As for the desertification, I'll take one misrepresentation at a time. You have presented one 7 year old non-peer reviewed source that says that CO2 fertilisation may explain expansion of forrest in the Negev. You take that to refute a much more recent peer reviewed paper that says that GW effects "probably include expansion of subtropical deserts". That's really a classical case of cherry-picking denialism. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I realize english isn't your first language Stephan and so I direct you to the "OR" part of that sentence you just quoted. Obviously implying storms will increase in frequency/strength is a myth that is being promoted. Anyway, there are other papers that back up my version of events and I'm sure you are aware of them and can look them up yourself instead of wasting more of my time (the point I suppose), but I'm sure if you thought about it for two seconds, and assuming that the models are correct (haven't been yet) and that we do get an extra degree of warming, most of which would be in the arctic/antarctic (odd how the global warming lead doesn't mention the antarctic eh? I guess that must be what you call "cherrypicking"), then you'd realize that the increase in CO2 would be far more important factor than such a piddling temp increase. The fact is that the lead of the global warming article is nothing but cherry picking and I'm honestly surprised you guys haven't included ridiculous claims that say global warming has increased prostitution (from your favorite source - the UN)- baby steps I guess - and this wikipedia article is just a primer for such alarmism. I suppose the most amusing part of the article is that it promotes things that have been going on for thousands of years as "proof" of global warming (e.g. sea level rise/melting glaciers.) TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't seem to be going anywhere constructive. Maybe you could argue personal viewpoints on climate change elsewhere? MastCell ^Talk 05:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I think this is a great example of why it's important to understand what you're talking about. TGL writes: the lead saying desertification will occur when increased CO2 will probably cause forests to reclaim some desert area, as if these were two contrasting ideas. And to the average person, they probably look like contrasting ideas. But they aren't. Increased CO2 concentration leads to increased water use efficiency in plants. Increased WUE, increased woody biomass. And while I suspect that the authors of press release get it wrong about the change in soil moisture, this whole thing is entirely unrelated to "desertification". Desertification is primarily driven by land use, not plant growth. Increasing woody biomass in some deserts may affect desertification, but only inasmuch as it alters human behaviour. And since woody biomass competes with herbaceous biomass, it's also possible that increased woody biomass can put more pressure on grazing lands, thus speeding desertification.

This is a classic bit of original synthesis that appears to be "common sense" as long as you don't understand what's going on. This is especially common in these articles. It's difficult enough to explain this to the average person. But when you have editors who arrive here spoiling for a fight, ready to right a great wrong, it becomes impossible to deal with. Sure, all we need to do is follow policy, since it forbids SYNTH. But that doesn't do much good when you have editors who aren't willing accept that "increased woody biomass" ≠ "reduced desertification". Guettarda (talk) 06:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some papers about desertification and CO2/climate change. Anyway, the excellent point is the one you inadvertently made - human behavior causes a lot of the problems associated with climate change. Glacier's melting? Land use changes and black carbon deposits are reasons some of them shrinking (e.g. the oft-cited Kilimanjaro). Coral reefs dying? Farm runoff. But back to the global warming lead - why doesn't it talk about climate forcings there instead of sounding like a namedropping Greenpeace pamphlet? After all, the models are all based on these theoretical mechanisms that have never been demonstrated in reality, and, in fact, I'd say are pretty much disproven. But hey, we can continue to ignore how the IPCC's models compare with that whole "reality" thing - it isn't like "real science" should be falsifiable or anything right?

So again, why doesn't the lead talk about climate forcings? Without which the models completely and utterly fail? Why does the lead graph come from surface temperature measurements instead of satellites? Why does that graph stop at 1990? Isn't that cherrypicking? Why the misleading trend lines in the second graph? Why do so many of the graphs mix data from different sources? Why aren't the error bars shown (which would take up nearly the entire graph)?

Thank you, but I'll continue to go with Richard Lindzen, atmospheric physicist at MIT, even though he isn't as good at self-promotion and media manipulation. In fact, he recently said, "As far as I can tell, skepticism involves doubts about a plausible proposition. I think current global warming alarm does not represent a plausible proposition." Hopefully the articles on wikipedia will reflect that sentiment more instead of sounding like they were written by Green Party politicians who care more about idealogy than the cold hard reality of their actions. TheGoodLocust (talk) 07:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, this is the kind of thing you have to deal with in articles. My point was that increased biomass ≠ reduced desertification, not that desertification was unrelated to climate change. In a complex system, if A is related to B, and B is related to C, you cannot simply assume that A is related to C. That can be counterintuitive to many people.

BozMo suggested that we should feel obliged to explain these things to new editors. I can accept that, up to a point. That point stops somewhere short of an editor who needs to be right, even though they don't understand the underlying science. Guettarda (talk) 15:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So the article can imply, in the lead, that there will be increased desertification, even though there are many factors for it, CO2 will increase the "biomass" of the desert and it is an observed fact that CO2 helps plants that are subject to water stress (not that global warming would even cause water stress)? What exactly is the justification for saying there will be more desertification? Let me guess the failed "models" predict it?

Again though, I must thank you for inadvertently making my excellent point about relationships, and I can only wonder why some people attempt to link global warming to a whole host of ridiculous things (great resource for you guys to expand the global warming articles I imagine), but ignore the proven reasons for them (as I demonstrated earlier). Of course, I keep on hearing that the "science is settled" and then I come across interesting Climategate emails where they say they can't explain the lack of warming, or that they "wish the science was proven true regardless of the consequences" and recently I came across this one where he seems to imply some interesting things about Michael Mann (odd how wikipedia promotes Mann's work so much - it is almost like someone editing the articles in his personal friend) and nicely summarizes their knowledge of the paleoclimatology field with "(we) honestly know fuck-all about what the >100 year variability was like with any certainty (i.e. we know with certainty that we know fuck-all)."

Finally, I'll leave you with a nice quote from Richard Lindzen (perhaps you can add it to the global warming article), "Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 21st century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a roll-back of the industrial age." Odd how his work doesn't seem to make much of an impact on the global warming articles, but we instead constantly cite the Climategate scientists even though the Institute of Physics has said, "The CRU e-mails as published on the internet provide prima facie evidence of determined and co-ordinated refusals to comply with honourable scientific traditions and freedom of information law. The principle that scientists should be willing to expose their ideas and results to independent testing and replication by others, which requires the open exchange of data, procedures and materials, is vital. The lack of compliance has been confirmed by the findings of the Information Commissioner. This extends well beyond the CRU itself – most of the e-mails were exchanged with researchers in a number of other international institutions who are also involved in the formulation of the IPCC’s conclusions on climate change."

Ouch! Almost as bad what the Wegman Report said about Mann et all isn't it (again, funny how often wikipedia promotes his website and "science")? Odd, how most of the "criticisms" (again some of which are misleading/wrong) of the Wegman Report are sourced to Real Climate, where Mann is one of 8-9 contributors and a founder, but that section doesn't say where the "criticism" came from - nor does it stop the wikipedia article from stating those criticisms as if they were fact. That'd be like George Bush being criticized for Katrina while "some people" criticize that criticism a being inaccurate - without mentioning that those "people" are Bush and Cheney themselves. Cheers. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:05, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Purpose

3) The purpose of wikipedia is building an encyclopaedia, not a social club.

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Standard William M. Connolley (talk) 14:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely agree, and we should worry about myspace-ish behavior when we see it. However a collegial work environment with an atmosphere of mutual respect is almost always much more productive than an incivil and adversarial one. ++Lar: t/c 18:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Standard; as is the necessity of not being insistently unsociable when engaged in building the project. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by User:MastCell

Proposed principles

Role of the Arbitration Committee

1) It is not the role of the Arbitration Committee to settle good-faith content disputes among editors.

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Copied from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion. There seem to be a lot of requests for ArbCom to rule on whether climate change is a "scientific" or a "political" topic. That's a content issue for editors to hash out amongst themselves, not one to be decided by fiat. If good-faith discussion of the issue has broken down, then it's ArbCom's role to see what can be done to restore it. MastCell ^Talk 18:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell's comment is perfect. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral point of view and sourcing

2) The requirement of the neutral point of view that points of view be represented fairly and accurately, and Wikipedia's nature as an encyclopaedia, demand that articles should always use the best and most reputable sources. A neutral point of view cannot be synthesised merely by presenting a plurality of opposing viewpoints, each derived from a polarised source.

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Copied from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion. A large part of the problem is the reliance on polarized sources. In fact, the argument seems to me to boil down to the idea that not enough polarized sources from one side are being presented. The point is that we will never be able to create a serious, respectable article by accreting an ever-increasing volume of polarized sources.

There is no lack of high-quality, reliable sources. There does seem to be a lack of will to base articles on them. Instead, there seems to be a lot of argument around the use of blogs and partisan opinion pieces. It doesn't really matter how those arguments are resolved - they are misguided from the start. MastCell ^Talk 18:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind. My points were essentially addressed further down at "Encyclopedic coverage of science" -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Too simple a description, I think. There is enormous value in noting in a science-related article the unreliable but widespread views on the subject and to give some information on what the response of the best/most reputable sources have on those alternative ideas. Most of this is and should be done in "child" articles to the "parent" articles. Popular views, no matter how disreputable or wrong they may be, deserve some attention. There's an inevitable, irreducable tension (reflected in disagreements among editors) over how much attention should be given to a view that is widely held but not widely held among the most reputable sources. The best we can do is just discuss the issue clearly and civilly (that's also the least we can do). Also, for the climate-change-related articles that are essentially about non-science topics (some books, BLPs, controversies) the sourcing itself is largely polarized, and it doesn't hurt to reflect that in a Wikipedia article. Where there are few of the very best kinds of sources, and where the community has decided to keep the article (The Gore Effect is one recent example among many), citing the best available sources often means polarized sources. Polarized sources should not be ignored in any controversy article either, since there wouldn't be a controversy without the polarity (example: Climatic Research Unit email controversy). -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC) I now notice that MastCell's "Encyclopedic coverage of science", a little way below, addresses much of this. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the idea behind polarized sources might have to do with that articles should have criticisms intertwined with out a criticisms section having a list of criticisms. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:20, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight

3) In describing points of view on a subject, articles should fairly represent the weight of authority for each such view, and should not accord them undue weight. Thus, views held by a relatively small proportion of commentators or scholars should not be overstated, but similarly views held by a relatively large proportion thereof should not be understated.

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Copied from the cold fusion case. Obviously, the devil is in the details, but this seems like a reasonable starting point to address issues of neutrality and weight. MastCell ^Talk 18:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good start; however, when a single org (e.g. IPCC) usurps authority on a POV, fair and prudent governance requires that minorities be protected and fairly presented multiple POVs in the scales of justice. There are countless folks who have not granted consent to the IPCC's weighted authority. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your belief that the IPCC has "usurped authority" (from whom?) shouldn't really have a bearing on our encyclopedic coverage of climate change. Moreover, the IPCC is hardly unique or solitary in their assessment. MastCell ^Talk 16:32, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The IPCC's claim to own "scientific consensus" is being usurped from those with scientific facts who don't consent to their opinions. Fortunately, there are adequate reliable sources, with bearing, to present a NPOV on the topic in Wikipedia, without their political agents disrupting the process. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 16:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedic coverage of science

4) Encyclopedias are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with current mainstream scientific thought.

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Copied from the cold fusion case, although similar principles have repeatedly been promulgated by ArbCom. Insofar as climate change is presented as a scientific topic, it is incumbent upon us to provide an overview in line with current mainstream scientific thought (which is easily demonstrable on this topic). Insofar as climate change is treated as a political topic, it should be clear that we are addressing its politics rather than its science. MastCell ^Talk 18:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, however I think that much of the dispute stems from the fact that many editors are viewed as playing up or in some cases imagining a scientific consensus more unanimous than actually exists. Because it isn't clear which views are 'mainstream', or that there is a mainstream view in the first place, it makes sense to broaden coverage to include 'dissenting' viewpoints.--Heyitspeter (talk) 01:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See US NAS study, (study, 3rd party review) discussed above under #Reliable sources --Nigelj (talk) 01:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A good principle. However it is not particularly helpful. This principle does not address much of the problem area. For example, what is the "current mainstream scientific thought" (CMST :) ) about whether the email hacking incident article ought to be titled Climategate or something else? Or the CMST about the appropriate slant to the Fred Singer biography? Or the CMST about whether the Gore Effect is a popular culture phenomenon that is sufficiently notable to merit inclusion in the project? (note carefully, it is clear that CMST holds that Gore Effect is not actually a real thing, Gore's presence at events or meetings doesn't actually cause weather anomalies... that is not my point). So while this is a helpful principle it's not all that relevant to the problem area or to the behavior of problematic editors. ++Lar: t/c 14:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this one principle hardly addresses the entire dispute, although I also think it's an important starting point and an important baseline principle. There are multiple problematic behaviors at play; one of them is a tendency to drive our scientific coverage away from mainstream scientific thought. I'm not getting into the thorny question of whether this problem is "worse" than other behavioral issues like incivility, but we need to be clear that it is in fact a problem. MastCell ^Talk 16:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be a bit more blunt. This isn't a principle that gets to the root of any serious current problem. I'm not sure there is a "tendency to drive our coverage" that is such a problem that collegial but firm editing, by a large contingent of welcoming and unbiased editors instead of the small, overly defensive cadre there now, can't address it. I think introducing this principle is a smoke screen. I think trying to make this case about the science, or about "skeptic vs scientist" is a smoke screen as well. I think you need to address my counterexamples that show problematic articles and problematic editing that have nothing to do with this principle. The vast bulk of the problem is with those. Not the science. I suppose if I want to feel better I could introduce "The sun rises in the east" as one of my principles... slightly less relevant. Slightly. ++Lar: t/c 19:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't address your counterexamples because I agree with you that the problem is bigger than just science coverage. Perhaps we can agree to disagree about the relevance of this principle. I'm a little disappointed that you think I introduced it as a "smoke screen", rather than as an honest representation of my perspective on the dispute, but I'll live. MastCell ^Talk 05:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The question is, is AGW primarily a science topic where the political debate promoted by skeptic and denialist fringe advocates is largely disregarded or a social political topic where the arguments over the scientific consensus require reporting? In good faith, how is this question answered when a group editing to the scientific consensus will not engage in discussions whether it is a primarily science topic or not? LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:56, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That rather depends on the article. Politics of global warming is about politics. Global warming is largely about science. Just like Nuclear fission it has many dimensions; but just like NF, that doesn't mean science articles should be stuffed with politics William M. Connolley (talk) 19:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My contention is, where is it decided that AGW is primarily a science subject? The scientific consensus is vitally important in framing the subject, but is it more of a political and social issue in the greater world (because what we decide to do about it, aided by the understanding of the science, is of greater import than correctly interpreting the detail of the data)? The various (non)agreements on curbing greenhouse gases, etc., are informed by the science, but are driven by political, economic and social criteria. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. If the science was all there was to the decision to fight AGW, we'd (as a society) already be addressing the problem in a much more concerted and serious manner. IMHO anyway. That we are not... proves that this is not primarily a science topic. But I think whether it's science or social is a side issue, a content question to be addressed by the editors involved. Or should be. LHvU seems to be saying that the process to do so has broken down. As evidence of THAT, I point to WMC two posts above arguing the point here instead of on the appropriate talk. Here is not the place. ++Lar: t/c 19:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think since Global warming is, at root, a science topic, and the core of it is a science topic, that we should assume it's primarily a science topic and science should take up the largest part of it. That article is an introduction to the topic with various "daughter" or "subtopic" articles naturally stemming from it, and as long as those related topics have prominent links, it seems to me that the central issues revolving around science should be given a lot more weight. Editors with more knowledge about science usually should be deferred to in content questions about science, particularly WP:WEIGHT because that requires knowledge of a number of sources in order to really get right. But if the scientifically knowledgable editors are rude and seem to be pushing a POV agenda rather than trying to fairly present the full range of opinion among the most reliable sources with their proper weight, other editors are not going to trust them on any discussion about WP:WEIGHT. This is where eroding civility and, especially, collegiality, harms the encyclopedia -- if you want your scientific expertise to be respected, you'll have to suffer unscientific fools gladly. This isn't a faculty lounge or a science club or an academic journal's editorial board. The door is always open to the public at Wikipedia, and anybody gets to walk in. There should be deference to expertise, and I'm willing to give it when the experts will let me. Bad behavior by editors with various POVs in discussing and editing non-science topics that we can all understand has badly eroded trust. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's an old lawyer joke that most people have heard: If the law is on your side, argue the law. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If neither is on your side, argue louder. The editors with scientific expertise should be demanding strict compliance with WP:TALK and especially WP:CONSENSUS on talk pages when it comes to science topics, because with their expertise they should be able to undermine the points of those with less expertise. They should demand that discussion and consensus control contested content and edit warring should be opposed to the hilt. If you've got better arguments, it's in your best interest (and the encyclopedia's) to make sure that cool discussion rules and edit warring (and distracting incivility) are given the bum's rush. On non-scientific topics, the experts' advantage will be almost entirely lost, as it should be, but since there's a scientific background to just about all these topics, a bit of an advantage remains with the experts, and it's much easier to reject edit warring and incivility everywhere rather than only on some topics. I know it's infuriating to deal with rude fools, and there certainly have been some on the skeptic side, but it's hard for them to win in some areas if editors with expertise have patience and embrace good practices. More editors should read Vanity Fair. A little humility greases a lot of skids. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Resp to Lar) I am not sure that there has been that discussion, or even attempted. I am aware that 3 admins (you, me and TheWordsmith) have separately suggested, after coming to the Probation request page and hearing the arguments for the scientific consensus viewpoint to the defining arbiter of what might be allowed on the page, that there might be a specific "science of AGW" page where such balance might be considered the npov - and I don't think any of us got a convincing reason. I am also somewhat constrained in that I have only been involved in these issues since being an uninvolved admin, and I - to attempt evenhandedness - decided not to immerse myself in the history. Is there anyone who can say that they tried to bring these issues up previously? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:07, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The power of example

4) Administrators who intervene in complex disputes should model the sort of behavior they hope to see from others. If an administrator finds him/herself repeatedly descending into bickering, snarkiness, or petty exchanges with editors in a dispute, then they should consider either making an effort to set a positive example, or withdrawing from the area until they are able to do so.

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If I were to pick one reason why the probation regime failed, it would be this. The people commenting below the "uninvolved admins" header need to set an example for those commenting above it. This didn't happen, on multiple levels. Some are in evidence already, and some I may present evidence on myself. This is not intended as a prelude to sanctioning any specific admin, but it needs to be said as a reminder to otherwise sensible people who have fallen down on this score in the current instance. MastCell ^Talk 18:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I were to pick one reason why the probation regime hasn't been as successful as it might have been, it would not be this one. This is a minor symptom of the toxicity of the overall GW environment, not a root cause of anything. ++Lar: t/c 19:12, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The more I look into this the more I think that it is a serious problem. Some of the behavior I've seen borders on paranoia. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:24, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your first edit is this year, it appears. You may not have been around long enough to see the patterns, unless you've done considerable research into past contributions and past situations. ++Lar: t/c 13:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)d[reply]

I know that there has been long-term hostility between editors in this area. There is considerable antagonism and even hate. I don't believe that a history of hostility in the past is an excuse for current hostility, or somehow makes it less objectionable. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:22, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree but I'm not sure I see the connection to your suggestion that there is behavior bordering on paranoia. Or to my previous comment. Mere hostility isn't what I am referring to when I speak of patterns. The pattern that concerns me can be executed in a most civil manner (on the surface, anyway). ++Lar: t/c 18:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how that concept of "patterns" materially changes the need for a strong principle requiring that administrators not become involved in administrator actions affecting editors with whom they have had conflict. If you agree to that, then we may be quibbling about side issues. Do you? ScottyBerg (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't agree that a strong principle is required to address this matter. It's just not a root cause of the problem here. I think you need to clarify your paranoia comment. ++Lar: t/c 19:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes people "descend" when pushed. I think it's much easier to make this kind of case when it obviously isn't a matter of someone being pushed or goaded. There are cases of admins unambiguously violating WP:NPA, WP:AGF and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and it is unquestionable that there was no goading or personal pressure applied to them to tempt them into it. Within days I will be submitting detailed, dead-to-rights evidence to that effect. Anyone who wants a preview of that can follow my references in my list of subissues. I think arb-appointed admins would be less likely to engage in this behavior, whether or not the admins are later pushed or goaded. (I should add that, angry as I still am over this, I think it's much more important for ArbCom to state that this kind of behavior is wrong, to be able to point to evidence of it, and to change the sanctions set-up so that it's much less likely to happen again, rather than for any admins to be pilloried for it.) -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a given that admins acting on a heavily disputed topic will be "pushed". None of the admins I have in mind is so naive as to be unaware of that reality. If an admin wants successfully intervene in a complex, heated dispute, then they have to be capable of recognizing provocation, and capable of handling it without sinking into the mud. MastCell ^Talk 21:15, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking from an editor's perspective, which I think is not too far from an admin's position in this particular situation, I find it's very much harder to keep your cool over time. Months of pushing and goading eventually wear you down, and anger sneaks up while you're telling yourself that you're still in control of yourself. Retreating from the particular pages of the dispute has its own cost because nobody wants to think that pushing and goading succeeded in running them out of the neighborhood. I can't say how whatever dynamics are involved on a panel of admins would affect an admin's thinking about leaving -- in the abstract, it should make it easier to leave, knowing there are other admins around to take up the slack; in reality that's not necessarily the case. Having said all this, I should point out that you're essentially right on the underlying point. It would be interesting to get input on this from admins who came and went from GSCCRE or who were involved at length in other longstanding disputes. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that there's a difference between an administrator making heated comments in the "heat of battle" and an administrator who, having cooled down and counted to ten and such, makes a conscious decision to become an adversary of an editor or group of editors. When an editor attacks the integrity of an editor or group of editors, I don't think that it's a valid excuse to say that this person is a victim of some kind of post-traumatic stress disorder and needs to be excused for his conduct. ScottyBerg (talk) 22:32, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't think anything that I brought up amounts to an excuse, but I do think there are ameliorating circumstances, which can sometimes loom large. The specific circumstances will show how large. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'd actually rather not split hairs or try to divine intent. If an admin wants to intervene in a heated dispute, then they should be capable of setting an example - ideally a good one, but at least not a harmful one. I agree with most of what JohnWBarber has to say about the way people get drawn in, and I agree that people are sometimes loathe to take a break because it feels like "giving in" to bullying. All of that is eminently reasonable, but still shouldn't absolve admins from setting an example. MastCell ^Talk 22:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the way to sort the problem is at the root. Get rid of the bullying behavior (if necessary by getting rid of the bullies) and things will improve. I'm glad to see you acknowledge that there's been bullying, MastCell. ++Lar: t/c 14:01, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that where there is bullying, we should address it. However, I don't think that excuses an admin (or anyone else, but especially an admin) who descends to tit-for-tat responses to perceived bullying. In general, a big part of the behavioral issue here is the tendency to externalize everything: "I was being goaded, I was being baited, I was being bullied..." I'm not denying that those provocative behaviors exist, but I think we can legitimately expect admins (in particular) to set an example of how to respond to them, while still acknowledging that those behaviors are problems themselves. MastCell ^Talk 16:52, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@MastCell: I think that if you are evaluating how people behave, you have to divine intent. If an administrator gets drawn into a tit-for-tat squabble with somebody who is attacking him, if it's a one-time occurrence, then I think that it's understandable and of no consequence. But if an administrator has a chip on his shoulder about a particular editor or real/perceived group of editors, and drops in with gratuitous comments long after the provocation has vanished, that is the kind of thing that just should not be tolerated. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:05, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We're doing no good here by not bringing up specifics. I think we've plumbed the depths of how much we can say in general. I'm a bit uncomfortable making comments here before my evidence is in, because it's a lot easier to talk about specifics. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:29, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you intend to introduce evidence of an actual chip on an actual shoulder? Otherwise that seems like a gratuitous comment. ++Lar: t/c 15:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In what way is it gratuitous? ScottyBerg (talk) 15:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Two ways, first "chip on his shoulder" is not a dispassionate term, and second, if you don't intend to introduce evidence, it's polemic. ++Lar: t/c 18:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we're quibbling about semantics. "Chip on shoulder" is a synonym for "personal antagonism." Let's refocus on the central issue, which is this: Should administrators who have a record of personal antagonism concerning certain editors become involved in administrative actions concerning those editors? Do you agree with this? ScottyBerg (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so much sure it's semantics. Rather, it's connotation, your second word choice is much less judgemental. But I agree with you. In fact I may choose to introduce evidence that shows there are several such administrators that have carried out such actions, although I doubt I will unless it really becomes necessary, as I'm not sure it's the most fruitful line of inquiry though. It's far more important to get at the root cause of why administrative action is needed in the first place, and why the GW area is such a non-level and unpleasant environment, than to quibble about who likes whom the most. ++Lar: t/c 19:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I'm not talking about the commentary between the uninvolved admins in their section of the enforcement page when I suggest I might introduce evidence of problematic admin behavior. ++Lar: t/c 20:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The commentary between the uninvolved admins in that section of the Enforcement page was exemplary, I would suggest. The polite interchange which lead to the consensus' - and in many cases, a realisation there was to be no consensus - found there was in stark contrast to much of the other interactions on that page. Perhaps there were instances where a "uninvolved" admin commented outside of that section (and I certainly did so when my opinions were not meant to be part of the inter admin discussion) and they were not as careful in their use of tone as they might have been, but I cannot recall instances. There were also instances where uninvolved admins noted their intent to uphold WP policy regardless of whether potential miscreants were editing to the accepted consensus or not - and this was certainly loudly decried as troll enabling, partisanship, and bias by some. If someone believes that a declaration that any troublemaker is liable to sanction as partisanship, then it needs to be considered if that is not a confession that they had been troublemaking on behalf of the angels... LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with LHvU. By and large, the core 4-6 admins worked very well together to build consensus in the uninvolved section of requests. This includes those with whom I frequently disagreed (BozMo, 2/0). There were a few passersby admins who were somewhat more antagonistic, but they didn't stick around long. ATren (talk) 19:37, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that in many cases admins were able to work together collegially in handling enforcement requests. And, for that matter, some of them set excellent examples of how to handle attacks and provocation (including LHvU, who handled unpleasantness directed at him quite well). Maybe I should withdraw this, since I'm not sure it's a good use of time here to present evidence and in any case I don't think any administrative behavior has risen to the sanctionable level. A word to the wise that admins need to set a good example would be the most I think evidence would support, so maybe it's a better use of time to focus elsewhere. MastCell ^Talk 05:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposals by Stephan Schulz

Proposed principles

WP:UNDUE and WP:VALID are integral parts of WP:NPOV

1) NPOV requires that we "represent all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias". For a field like climate change, which has been a topic of intense research for a generation, and the topic of intense public reporting for 20 years, nearly every opinion, valid or refuted, has been reported in some usually reliable popular press outlet. Thus, mere mentioning of a position in a reliable source is insufficient to justify inclusion in a high-level article like global warming. Rather, the weight of sources, and, for a scientific topic, in particular the weight of scientific sources, must be taken into consideration when deciding what to include into an article.

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Surprisingly timely external comment: [8]. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:32, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First point, does the consensus scientific view form the npov, inform the npov, or form part of the npov? Second, do we construct article length to the readers attention span or do we cover all important aspects of an issue and allow the reader to digest as much as they can in as many readings as required? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re. 1: No, yes, yes. 2: I don't think "the reader" has a well-defined attention span. But we do have guidelines on article length. Just the IPCC WG1 AR4 report has about 1000 pages - after much summarising and condensing. Google Scholar finds 283,000 papers for the search term "global warming" published in the last 10 years. I'm certain their authors all think them important. Clearly we cannot include all of this material - and we have not even started discussing grey literature, the popular press, or think tank propaganda. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Far too often we see "this is mentioned by RS, *therefore* it belongs. So a reminder of UNDUE is needed William M. Connolley (talk) 15:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Defend each other

2) From MeatballWiki : "Allow other community members defend you; if they don't, shame on them. In particular, no matter what differences of opinion exist, no editor should accept, condone, or repeat false and malicious claims about fellow editors. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Collegiality

1) The editing environment at Wikipedia is intended to be welcoming, collaborative and collegial.

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Collegiality

1) By and large, with notable happy exceptions, and with changes in the tone of individual articles/talk pages from time to time, for good and for bad, the editing environment in the topic area is not welcoming, collaborative and collegial. ++Lar: t/c 19:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Civility

1) In a collaborative project such as Wikipedia, civility plays an important long-term role in the project. While the occasional flare-up of tempers is to be expected, consistently rude, condescending, bullying, or abusive behavior, particularly when directed at new users, creates a toxic atmosphere that harms Wikipedia.

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Quite. We have several versions of this idea now and I think this one's wording is among the best. ++Lar: t/c 19:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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@@ Line 808: / Line 808: @@
 :::::::::::Again, this is the kind of thing you have to deal with in articles. My point was that increased biomass ≠ reduced desertification, not that desertification was unrelated to climate change. In a complex system, if A is related to B, and B is related to C, you ''cannot'' simply assume that A is related to C. That can be counterintuitive to many people.
 :::::::::::BozMo suggested that we should feel obliged to explain these things to new editors. I can accept that, up to a point. That point stops somewhere short of an editor who ''needs'' to be right, even though they don't understand the underlying science. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] ([[User talk:Guettarda|talk]]) 15:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
+::::::::::::So the article can imply, in the lead, that there will be increased desertification, even though there are many factors for it, CO2 will increase the "biomass" of the desert and it is an observed fact that CO2 helps plants that are subject to water stress (not that global warming would even cause water stress)? What exactly is the justification for saying there will be more desertification? Let me guess the failed "models" predict it?
+::::::::::::Again though, I must thank you for inadvertently making my excellent point about relationships, and I can only wonder why some people attempt to link global warming to a [http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm whole host of ridiculous things] (great resource for you guys to expand the global warming articles I imagine), but ignore the proven reasons for them (as I demonstrated earlier). Of course, I keep on hearing that the "science is settled" and then I come across interesting Climategate emails where they say they can't explain the lack of warming, or that they "wish the science was proven true regardless of the consequences" and recently I came across [http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=356&filename=1062592331.txt this one] where he seems to imply some interesting things about Michael Mann (odd how wikipedia promotes Mann's work so much - it is almost like someone editing the articles in his personal friend) and nicely summarizes their knowledge of the paleoclimatology field with  "(we) honestly know fuck-all about what the >100 year variability was like with any certainty (i.e. we know with certainty that we know fuck-all)."
+::::::::::::Finally, I'll leave you with a nice quote from Richard Lindzen (perhaps you can add it to the global warming article), '''"Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 21st century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a roll-back of the industrial age."''' Odd how his work doesn't seem to make much of an impact on the global warming articles, but we instead constantly cite the Climategate scientists even though the [[Institute of Physics]] has said, "The CRU e-mails as published on the internet provide '''prima facie evidence of determined and co-ordinated refusals to comply with honourable scientific traditions''' and freedom of information law. The principle that scientists should be willing to expose their ideas and results to independent testing and replication by others, which requires the open exchange of data, procedures and materials, is vital. The lack of compliance has been confirmed by the findings of the Information Commissioner. '''This extends well beyond the CRU itself – most of the e-mails were exchanged with researchers in a number of other international institutions who are also involved in the formulation of the IPCC’s conclusions on climate change.'''"
+::::::::::::Ouch! Almost as bad what the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy#Committee_on_Energy_and_Commerce_Report_.28Wegman_report.29 Wegman Report] said about Mann et all isn't it (again, funny how often wikipedia promotes his website and "science")? Odd, how most of the "criticisms" (again some of which are misleading/wrong) of the Wegman Report are sourced to Real Climate, where Mann is one of 8-9 contributors and a founder, but that section doesn't say where the "criticism" came from - nor does it stop the wikipedia article from stating those criticisms as if they were fact. That'd be like George Bush being criticized for Katrina while "some people" criticize that criticism a being inaccurate - without mentioning that those "people" are Bush and Cheney themselves. Cheers. [[User:Thegoodlocust|TheGoodLocust]] ([[User talk:Thegoodlocust|talk]]) 17:05, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
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