Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity/Evidence

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk) Case clerks: NuclearWarfare (Talk) & AlexandrDmitri (Talk) Drafting arbitrator: Kirill Lokshin (Talk)

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Create your own section and do not edit in anybody else's section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum of 1000 words and 100 diffs. Giving a short, concise presentation will be more effective; posting evidence longer than 1000 words will not help you make your point. Over-long evidence that is not exceptionally easy to understand (like tables) will be trimmed to size or, in extreme cases, simply removed by the Clerks without warning - this could result in your important points being lost, so don't let it happen. Stay focused on the issues raised in the initial statements and on diffs which illustrate relevant behavior.

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Evidence presented by John J. Bulten

• Preliminaries, introduction, Itsmejudith's introduction, stipulations.

Ryoung122 repeated indeffable violations

• Reference.

Harassment

• Incivility: charging irrationality, self-delusion, unbrilliance, idiocy, self-deification, ridiculousness, ravaging, inconsideration, egotism.
• Comparing opponents to witch-hunters.
• Attack: charging subversion, manipulation, canvassing/recruiting, bullying, lies, intimidation, cabal (misstyling all names), forum-shopping, sockpuppetry, warring, machination.
• Presumptiveness: claiming to know my POV, my political party, my links to AlterNet (it's WorldNetDaily).

Disruption

• Talkpages: Manhandling chaotically, maladjusting other users' talk, commenting lengthily in wrong place, interrupting, hiding comments and signature offscreen. Defended previously.
• Threatening (24-hour block).
• Threading: Often confusingly indenting first graf threaded, but later grafs flush.
• Mass reversion.
• Wikilawyering.

POV-pushing

• Alerting others to all-caps "FACTS".
• Baldly asserting fringiness.

Unverifiability

• Continued thesis-citing; found unreliable for purpose.
• Unsourced/unexplained edits, tag removal.

Socking

• After block.
• Appearance of double-voting, consensus. 76.17.118.157 is Ryoung122.

Ryoung122 broke restoration conditions

• Reference.

Unsourceability

• Within 100 days.

Ownership

• (Nonlongevity) list-presentation control, edit-warring.

COI

• Self-identification.
• Editing about GRG and Young.

Canvassing

• Stealth. Defended.

Editors had COI

• 12.144.5.2, Bart Versieck, Longevitydude, NealIRC, Plyjacks, Sbharris, StanPrimmer, TML.
• Petervermaelen COI is per NickOrnstein.
• Cjeales COI is per NealIRC.
• Kletetschka found as sock or meatpuppet.

Editors were unduly influenced

Unquestioningly advocating for Ryoung122

• Bart Versieck.
• Brendanology (I "ignore"d IAR!).
• Canada Jack, openly.
• Kitia.
• Longevitydude.
• NickOrnstein.
• ResidentAnthropologist.
• Sbharris.

Unquestioningly supporting COI sources

• Bart Versieck.
• NealIRC.
• ResidentAnthropologist.
• Sbharris.

Editors duplicated Ryoung122's violations

Harassment

• Bart Versieck: Charging irrationality.
• Canada Jack: Incivility, charging threats.
• ResidentAnthropologist: Charging forum-shopping.
• Sbharris: Charging admin abuse.

Disruption

• Bart Versieck: Threatening, adjusting other users' talk, disruptive tagging.
• Brendanology: Wikilawyering.
• Canada Jack: Commenting in wrong place.
• Kitia: Noncommunication.
• Sbharris: Talk diatribe, strawman.

POV

Unverifiability

Socking

• Kitia.

Unsourceability

Ownership

• 218.109.112.0x12, Brendanology, DerbyCountyinNZ, Dhanson317: Edit warring.

COI

Canvassing

• Kitia.

BLP violations endangered the project

• Premature and/or unreliably-sourced death reports.
• Ryoung122: defending report disputed by self-identified family.

References

JJB 19:40, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Evidence presented by timneu22

LongevityDude made bad-faith/stalking edits.

I hope this is a correct place to put this information; in any case, it does seem relevant to any discussion about LongevityDude. Copied from recent ANI that was archived: A while ago, User:Longevitydude stated that it was good advice to take the opposing side for any of my AfDs. It seems that this has been happening recently, and also note some inappropriate edit comments. It's fine that people can have differing opinions at AfD, but this is a clear case of a user intentionally voting the opposite of me, just because of who I am. (I explained to the user when it was suggested he would take this course of action, that I would report it, and here I am.) An example is this AfD, which has only one non-delete vote (the author of the page) and then the LongevityDude comment, who says the AfD is "in bad faith and makes no sense". Based on other votes of that page, clearly the LongevityDude comment is about spite of the nominator (me), not article content. — Timneu22 · talk 16:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Not at all true, and this can be seen by viewing my edits over a long period of time. There's no question this was intentional on your part, as you seem to have no history at all of voting on AfDs outside the narrow scope of World's Oldest People. — Timneu22 · talk 13:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

LongevityDude claims this is untrue, because he voted on an AfD 8 months ago. I stand by my claim that his two recent edits are absolutely intentional, and my evidence shows this. — Timneu22 · talk 01:51, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

And now he's voting in my favor, as if to show some sort of atonement. — Timneu22 · talk 01:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

• Recently: more unwanted messages on my talk page. — Timneu22 · talk 14:03, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
  • More recently, the user continues to stalk my edits. It is not random that he's commenting on my AfDs, which are otherwise not in this user's general field of interest. Appears to be obvious WP:POINT. — Timneu22 · talk 14:06, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Longevitydude

Timneu22 assumes bad faith accusing me and other members

I was a part of the Elizabeth Kucinich afd, thats out side of the project. Longevitydude (talk) 21:05, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

this diff is proff that im not voting because of who he is Longevitydude (talk) 20:15, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Theres no appeasing this guy, even when I acknowledge he does something right he thinks im trying to atone, this isnt about atonement, its about expressing my views on something. Longevitydude (talk) 15:10, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Whenever one of your decisions made sense I acknowledged that, its you who make a bigger deal out of this than needs to be made out of it, and yes, 23 minutes in hell is something that interests me, and how would you know what interests me or not, I can be interested in whatever I want thank you very much. Longevitydude (talk) 15:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

My advice is you dont know what im interested in, and if I couldnt comment on your section then you cant comment on mine. I know what im interested in, and you would save a lot of time just not worrying about coincidental stuff.

• Look everybody, im loyal to the GRG/WOP and ill do just about anything they want me to do, Robert young has more brain and experience in the subject of Gerontology than any of us put together, and hes actually a nice guy once you get to know him, and with all due respect, its not Ryoung122 that got a warning for incivility, he was just being frank.

Leave Sumbuddi out of this

I will admit some of the arguements are understandable, I mean some of my edits are wierd, but other than 23 minutes in hell, none of those articles are in my public interests, you didnt know that until I admitted that, but other than that one afd I would say timneu22 has a valid point in his accusations, ban me however long, i deserve it, but Robert young and the grg/wop will NEVER be silenced, we have science on our side. Longevitydude (talk) 20:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence presented by David in DC

WOP WikiProject's peculiar view of its role, and the role of the GRG Yahoo group

My view of the relationship among WP, the GRG Yahoo group, the World's Oldest People WikiProject, RYoung and his colleagues on both the GRG Yahoo Group and WOP WikiProject can be found here in responses to LongevityDude in an AfD discussion.

LongevityDude's response reflects the problem well.

Here's LongevityDude's honest, if misguided, view of how other editors should work with GRG/WOP. Here's Griswaldo's apt response. But, somehow, LongevityDude digs in deeper.

My summation at the closing of the JV AfD helps summarizes the whole WOP/GRG problem. David in DC (talk) 14:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

The WOP Wikiproject uses two "sources" routinely. One is the GRG tables. Enough electrons have already been expended on that. It's obscured an even worser source.

The Louis Epstein Oldest Human Being (OHB) list carries an introductory disclaimer that makes it abundently clear that it is not a reliable source as we define reliability here on WP. It's hosted here. C'mon. How does one argue, in good faith, for sourcing things on Wikipedia to here David in DC (talk) 20:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

SPA's, puppets and drones. Oh, my!

Here's some fairly typical WOP/GRG sock- or meat-puppetry.David in DC (talk) 14:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

And here's an SPA whose edits, and guidance to LD (and clerks) suggest that at least one party may not be quite as unavailable as we've been told. The focus on death dates, the interest in helping LD present his case, and the additional contacts with the clerks about oversighting two edits on the intitial request page for this case may well be coincidence. My wholly inadmissible spider sense says otherwise. David in DC (talk) 20:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

SPA used over two days, with only one topic of edits: Contesting AfD nominations of centenarian bios. It could be sheer coincidence. But I wouldn't bet my pennies, marbles or pet froggie that it is. David in DC (talk) 20:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Incivility and name-calling

The same AfD features fine samples of RYoung's unique approach to collaboration.

And this edit summarizes my experiences with RY. Over time he's accused me of being a homophobic, anti-porn cabalist.

Here's the result of junior members of WOP adopting more senior members' editing style. David in DC (talk) 14:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's some brand-spanking new incivility, and an indication of what "unavailable until after December 15th" means. David in DC (talk) 21:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Still more name-calling while unavailable. David in DC (talk) 21:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

And still more. David in DC (talk) 21:50, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Here I reply to a reiteration of previously imputed callousness. I grant that the castigation factor has been ramped down to "callous". Historically, the castigator has demonstated a far more robust repertoire of invective. But it keeps happening while he's putatively unavailable. It's kinda galling. David in DC (talk) 20:06, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Still more invective although not directed at me. David in DC (talk) 18:23, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Brendanology misrepresents sources, including one that mirrors his blog

Here's my response when Brendanology told me to review the sources on a page.

And here he says there are sources in external links on the same article's page. There are none. David in DC (talk) 19:27, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Update: There's one now, inserted by someone else. David in DC (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

12.144.5.2 intentionally disregards WP:NOR, WP:RS, and WP:V

This approach, elucidated on my talk page and signed L.E., is startling. David in DC (talk) 18:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Additional comment: Even the edit summary is startling. Here 'tis, cut-and-pasted, verbatim: (→Gerontology Research Group and Guinness World Records:

Original research is the gold standard,anything else is second best.)

David in DC (talk) 18:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

A jaw-dropping policy proposal re WP:NOR, WP:RS, and WP:V on the World's Oldest Person Wikiproject

This essay on the WOP Wikiproject talk page, explains a great deal about why the project's approach and goals are at odds with those of en.wikipedia. David in DC (talk) 18:21, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Sjakkalle

Some notes concerning List of African supercentenarians

I am not a party to this case, but I have noticed that an AFD I closed, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of African supercentenarians has been brought up, and that an IP mentioned it on the main case page. December 4, 2010 at 06:58 (This edit appears to be misplaced in the section for User:Itsmejudith, and I believe a clerk may want to move it to a separate section or talkpage.)

• 10 November 2010 04:58, 05:27 List of African supercentenarians and List of South American supercentenarians nominated for deletion by John J. Bulten.
• 25 November 2010, 11:57 I closed the AFD as "delete" with a rationale where I cited the reliability of the GRG website.
• 25 November 2010, 14:33 JJB requests that I delete a second article (South American supercentenarians) which was also nominated in the aforementioned AFD. I complied with that request.
• 3 December 2008, 20:24 Ryoung122 requests that I overturn the decision and delete, citing the reliability of GRG, the political WDN background of JJB, and the notability of the article. I declined this request.

Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Sandstein

Ryoung122 uses Wikipedia as a battleground during this RFAR

On 3 December 2010, after the start of these proceedings, Ryoung122 wrote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Asa Takii:

"Aside from the fact that the "zero sources" assertion is a lie, both JJBulten and DavidinDC have previously collaborated in an anti-supercentenarian cabal (...)" ([37]).

Casting such aspersions without evidence is inappropriate; and such comments violate WP:BATTLE and WP:NPA.  Sandstein  09:12, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence presented by The Blade of the Northern Lights

WikiProject World's Oldest People was/is fundamentally flawed

I don't have a huge amount of evidence to give, save my involvement in fairly recent discussions. My involvement began with the Jan Goossenaerts AfD, in which I voted to delete and commented on the vitriolic responses from some of the "keep" voters; my comment is here (which I had slightly refactored after realizing that hounding could be misinterpreted as WP:HOUND). I have an extremely high threshold for invective- I have PDD-NOS, and in real-life I can be rather abrasive at times- and due to my real-life interest in history I'm capable of cutting through such invective to the heart of an issue, so I'm not normally one to worry about people's tempers flaring; however, I could tell that things there were getting out of hand, and that people coming to this AfD without a lot of experience dealing with screeds of angry text would have a hard time separating out the real arguments from the ranting (in my opinion, Timneu22 made quite a valiant effort, and should be commended for it). A couple of days later, I happened across a thread on the WikiProject World's Oldest People talkpage (how I got there I don't remember), and I realized that the users belonging to it were the source of most of the ranting at the Jan Goossenaerts AfD. My comments are still there, specifically in the End COI section, which I stand by. My primary involvement there was to provide a fresh voice, as I saw evidence of a huge walled garden that wouldn't be fixed without outside voices. Thanks to the efforts of editors like Itsmejudith, the situation there is definitely getting better; however, the fact that this wikiproject was able to maintain this huge walled garden for such a long time is somewhat disconcerting.

Ryoung122 misrepresents the arguments of people who disagree with him

When this issue was brought to ANI, a couple of users had made claims that this was an attempt to sabotage an expert in the field. To rebut this claim, I stated that experts were welcome, but that they had to adhere to policies like WP:N and WP:V like everyone else. To demonstrate my point, I repeated an analogy I had initially made at the WikiProject World's Oldest People talkpage here (with a slight addition in my next edit here); we don't and wouldn't allow Moonies to take total control over articles on the Unification Church, nor should we allow gerontology experts to take total control over articles relating to their field. His response, "Comparing material on supercentenarians to articles on Moonies is like Bishop Eddie Long claiming to be David, when he is in fact Goliath", was a complete misrepresentation of what I had said. I responded with this, where I pointed out that in fact I was not comparing the content of the two types of articles, but trying to point out why experts don't have the last word on notability or verifiability within their field.

Timneu22's assertions about Longevitydude are correct

This will be extremely brief; however, I would just like to say that Timneu22 has a valid point about Longevitydude's new-found interest in Timneu22's AfDs. Timneu22 and I are both New Page Patrollers, so we communicate on a fairly regular basis, and I've noticed much of what he's said in his section. There was a brief AN thread that fizzled out, which I'm surprised and disappointed didn't garner more attention then, and I think that Longevitydude's behavior warrants further scrutiny. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:24, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Longevitydude's rather bizarre response to this has only bolstered my view. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Matchups

Brendanology was uncivil

• This edit reverted the addition of a person supported by a reliable source with the edit summary "What is this trash?"
• This edit removed some possibly useful, if somewhat awkwardly phrased, information with the edit summary "What trash is this?"
• This edit, similar to the previous, with edit summary "Removed trashy, unconstructive edits."
• A large percentage of his (infrequent) edit summaries are in all caps. See here for example.

Ma^t_chups 15:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion of this here on my talk page.Ma^t_chups 11:29, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Brendanology

John J. Bulten behaved inappropriately

• Following a failed ArbCom request, I would like to present evidence that Bulten has behaved inappropriately on multiple longevity-related articles; I will name them below.

He went around intimidating and attempting to convert editors:[38]; he also went around threatening editors with blocks without prior attempts to seek consensus [39]. The dispute was on whether or not some words were to be bolded. The article originally came WITH those bolded words; JJB elected to change them and attempted to pass it off almost immediately as new consensus, which was extremely rude and inconsiderate; etiquette dictates that the opposition should take the matter to talk and propose the new change there, not the defendant. Reading off from the timestamp of the warning, only one prior attempt by John J. Bulten was attempted to propose change to that article, to which no replies had yet been made. [40]

John J. Bulten abused multiple Wikipedia policies related to AfDs

JJB did the following: (1) submitting batches of biographies on long-lived people for deletion under near-identical criteria; [41][42][43][44] (2) spamming the same AfD message with minimal differences, [see beginning of each AfD listed for (1)], (3) broken multiple AfD contributing policies (such as not voting on your own AfD,[see beginning of each AfD listed for (1)], and (4) attempts, using spammed messages more than once to the same editor, and often to several different editors as well, to scare off editors who voted "keep" on articles he nominated for deletion.[45][46][47].

John J. Bulten displayed hypocritical behaviour

In this diff[48] Bulten attacks User:Petervermaelen for making identical comments on five AfDs when he has also spammed identical messages (see above). This has led to confusion and misconceptions about his aims owing to his hypocrisy.

JJBulten displays poor conduct and malformed understanding of notablility guidelines on AfDs

Several things are telling from his diatribe [49]:

- Pointing out that User:DHanson317 replied on six AfDs (User:Jc iindyysgvxc at least three AfDs) seems to be a suggestion by him that DHanson317 and jc had contributed to "too many" AfDs and ought to 'stop'.

- JJB's line, "While further consensus is still sought at the discussion link in the nom, I believe it established that there is no consensus for biography-level notability inhering in single-source cases on such broad criteria", is saying one thing and then another.

He admits that consensus was still sought with regards to biography-level notability, and then presents completely unevidenced belief that makes his own sentences seem self-important when there is actually no real meaning or vaild point made from that argument.

- Highlighting my previous statement, JJB also mentioned that Yukichi Chuganji, Margaret Skeete, and who knows else were in an average of seven Wikipedia lists under different criteria (likely 100 oldest men ever, list of Japanese supercentenarians, etc.), and deemed their appearance in those lists to "already be excessive" and proceeded to declare this as one of his supporting reasons for getting rid of Chuganji's and Skeete's articles, among others; JJB labours under the delusion that he creates policies on Wikipedia and that they are supposed to be followed blindly. Since it is argued that since outside sources choose to grant coverage of "world's oldest persons", it is only proper that Wikipedia articles be created and/or considered for them as long as enough information has been established, among other reasons. John J. Bulten believes that as they were all supercentenarians, it is thus appropriate for their articles to be deleted as batches, rather than as individual entities considered separately. As stated, in the batch of articles mass-nominated for deletion shown above, JJB attacked other users for submitting identical comments to each of those AfDs, whereas, as stated, he himself submitted identical comments to each of those AfDs with minimal changes to suit the article in a "one-size-fits-all" style, and voted on his own AfDs in a similar "one-size-fits-all" style.

John J. Bulten smears RejRes to push his point

Rejuvenation Research is stated to be a highly and peer-reviewed journal with reliability established[50]; JJB smeared RejRes as "unreliable GRG published" [51] in order to push his point without first validating the reliability of the source.

John J. Bulten establishes inappropriate friends network à la Facebook

As seen here, John J. Bulten establishes a friends network on Wikipedia which is inappropriate and disruptive given the nature of his behaviour. Despite stating "add your name here", he has been known to add names himself [52]. The word "friends" can be taken to mean editors he has corresponded regularly with, but in an Internet-ish sense it can also be taken to mean an ally; Thus his behaviour, in addition associated with his tendency to add names himself, can be considered WP:CANVASSING and I see this to be highly disruptive.

→ Brendan (talk, contribs) 09:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

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