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Edit this section for new requests

Mooretwin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

BigDunc and Domer48 given 48 hour blocks, Mooretwin, 2 weeks by Tznkai. PhilKnight (talk) 12:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This user has breached the 1RR on Troubles related articles set out here First revert here then here and here. User has been told to drop the accusation about tag teaming also by Fozz. Also user is well aware of sanctions and was warned about them before. BigDunc^Talk 04:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mooretwin removed a warning - not impressive. This part of it looks cut and dry, but Domer and Dunc's contributions will also have to be looked at.--Tznkai (talk) 04:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BigDunc also made two reverts in 24 hours [1] and [2].

Domer made one simple[3] and one partial [4]

Mooretwin is clearly the most problematic party here (more reverts, including one apparently intended to enforce the 1RR restriction) - I intend a block at least two weeks long. BigDunc has earned himself a short block. Unsure about Domer, since even partial RVs are better than reverts.--Tznkai (talk) 06:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They are not reverts of the same content surely they count seperatly, the same type of reverts happened with The Thunderer and when report was made no block was given as they were not the same content. It is not as far as I am aware 1 edit per page or is that what it is? I have no intention of reverting the content again and as can be seen from the history of the article I have not reverted. BigDunc^Talk 06:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The revert restriction refers to any reversions on the same page within 24 hours - regardless of the particular content. I'm not sure to which incident with the Thunderer you refer to.--Tznkai (talk) 06:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is not my understanding of the sanctions and if that is what they are then my reverts were not done with intention of breaching the sanctions and as I said I did not restore the content that Mooretwin reverted because I thought then I would be breaching sanctions. BigDunc^Talk 06:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Both should be blocked, both users being among the "usual suspects" and the face of the restriction has to be maintained. That BigDunc reported here another user for an offense he himself committed is not impressive (and I do not believe the above claim that he doesn't understand the meaning of "revert"), while Mooretwin only violated the rule after BigDunc (he shows awareness of another's 1rr vio in one of his edit-summaries). BigDunc's block should be shorter not because the offence here is much worse, but because his log is clean and Mooretwin's is heavy. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 06:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not claiming I dont know what a revert is I do but I thought that it had to be reverting the same content. BigDunc^Talk 06:23, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also as stated above I didn't revert the edits that were reverted as I thought that would be a breach and I have no intention of reverting. BigDunc^Talk 06:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reading WP:3RR: A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. You are either claiming to have believed that reverts must include the same content in order to be added to each other and thus not to have known how a revert is defined on wikipedia. That's hard to believe, frankly, given the extent and nature of your wiki-experience. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 06:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well I can honestly say that is what I thought in regard to 1RR I am not trying to make myself out to be stupid I thought with regard to 1RR it was the re revert of an editor that was covered in the sanctions. BigDunc^Talk 06:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mooretwin blocked for two weeks. Dunc, regardless of whether or not you understood the exact nature of the revert parole, the point is that reverting is not the right answer, and the sanction is to impress that upon you and all the other editors. I am past my naptime, so I will return to this in the morning, my recommendation to other admins is as above if someone gets to it before I do.--Tznkai (talk) 06:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it was an honest mistake on my behalf and I will not do it again now that I am aware of my mistake. BigDunc^Talk 06:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I was the person who warned them both, and then it stopped I wasn't even going to go here. If Mooretwin has been blocked, but Domer hasn't I find that worrying, especially as Domer was quick to inform me the first time I went over 1R on that very article (at the time I was unaware there was an ArbCom really). I have to say I do feel somewhat for Mooretwin; to have two editors revert the exact same thing every time, but because he's only one editor he runs the risk of breaking the ArbCom ruling must be very frustrating. Whilst taking everything in good faith I would suspect the editors simply share the same political viewpoint and agenda on article content it somewhat smells that both editors are removing the same single part word each time looks rather suspicious, given their history of following each other around. --Blowdart | ^talk 09:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And what history of following who around? BigDunc^Talk 10:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This one was particularly silly, as by wikipedia's own definition both Protestant and Catholics would be an ethnic grouping. Heck it's happened to did the same to me on the removal of an image from the exact same page where two editors with an opinion can use 1RR to enforce it. It's no wonder he feels ganged up on when all it takes is a two editors against one situation on a troubles related article. I'm not suggesting meat puppetry, but it does show how easily 1RR can be used to push a single point of view if one "side" has more editors than the other. While his cries of tag teaming are annoying and it would help if both sides went to the talk page first I can certainly understand his frustration and how it appears to him. ArbCom's 1RR enables those whose "side" has the most editors to push their revisions. In an ideal world this would be a neutral side, but in Troubles related articles it appears only those with a real interest and a "side" are wanting to edit them. --Blowdart | ^talk 11:33, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed some text which was not mentioned in the article here Mooretwin then reverted me here this is their first revert. I then made my first revert here and was again reverted by Mooretwin here, this being their second revert. Dunc, then reverted Mooretwin here, this being Dunc’s first revert. Mooretwin then reverted for the third time here.

I don’t wish, nor do I think admin’s are, particularly interested in the nature of content dispute so I’ll not comment on that at all. What I will say however, is apart from the breech of AE sanctions which is obvious; the edit summary here by Mooretwin however is bang out of order. Mooretwin has been told about this already and then was given a formal warning about it, but still they persist. As was correctly summarised, any time he is reverted he is victim of tag teaming, and not just that editors both disagree with him.

It is my opinion, and I stand to be corrected, that the examples I’ve given above constitute a breech of the 1RR. That 1RR is pacifically designed to prevent this type of behaviour. I was not aware, that 1RR was applicable to the whole article, regardless of the edits involved. This I would consider to be very restrictive indeed, and open to all kinds of abuse. I have discussed the 1RR privately with Admin’s, on how with my current understanding of it, how it can be abused, or gamed which ever term you prefer. Could we have so clarification please on this, with some considered thought on its practical application?

Finally, it’s my opinion that early intervention in these situations can reduce tensions and deescalate situations arising. I also accept that Admin’s can’t be expected to sit on articles to prevent this type of situation, and that personal responsibility must be taken seriously. I admit that I have on occasion quietly let Admin’s know of potential situations and have seen positive results. On this occasion, I therefore apologise for not seen this coming, my only defence being I was asleep at the time and just woke to this. As Admin’s who are familiar with the history and background to all this will attest, I have on a number of occasions now defended editors with whom I’m in dispute, and requested that they not be blocked. I have failed to report breeches of AE sanctions, and tried alternatives. I don’t want to see anyone blocked, because it generates bad blood and just leaves editors resentful. I do understand however, that AE sanctions and formal warnings must be respected and seen as a last resort.

I have no intension of knowingly breeching AE sanctions, and civility is not an issue with me. I just hope that editors lose the confrontational tone and attitude, and try to be a bit more civil with each other. If I can offer any advice to Admin’s, it would be to tackle the issues of civility more, and take a more active interest in how subjects are discussed on talk pages. --Domer48_'fenian' 10:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The best advice anyone can give you in regards to 1RR or editing at Wikipedia in general is to simply reserve reverting *only* for vandalism. While there are cases for WP:BRD, its unlikely that process is going to work on controversial articles, such as those covering the Troubles. Shell ^babelfish 11:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Domer I'm sorry but no, you reverted the exact same word out twice yesterday. You first removed it here, Mooretwin restored it here and then you reverted the edit here. Mooretwin then restores it again and you revert again here. I point you to WP:3RR, A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.. A revert is not limited to the revert links in the diff view, but any action that reverses. You reverted twice, as did Mooretwin. Or I can't actually count. Which is perfectly possible *grin* --Blowdart | ^talk 11:52, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Blowdart. I've lost count of the number of times that editors have raised concerns about possible tag teaming by users Domer48 and BigDunc and it will hardly seem just if remedies are not applied across the board particularly when both in this case have broken 1RR. Domer's double revert mentioned above is certainly against the spirit of 1RR if not the letter. Valenciano (talk) 12:01, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am still convinced that Mooretwin's justifications for his actions are considerably more problematic, but BigDunc and Domer48 should be very familiar with the sanctions and their terms by now. I propose a 3 day block for both because they did in fact violate the sanctions.

Lets be clear here: we're not getting anywhere with these sanctions - we're just treading water. If anyone has bright ideas how to fix the overall problems with The Troubles. I'd like to hear them, but that is a conversation best had elsewhere.--Tznkai (talk) 13:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the first I knew of the sanctions was when Domer wielded them at me about a previous edit Domer is beyond "should be very familiar" into "knows and applies them". Even without the "I didn't know it applied to the whole article" mitigation (new one on me too) there was still a specific set of reverts on the same "ethno" word, which is not, by any means, the whole article. I don't view 1RR as treading water either, it's simply being abused right now to push one point of view because there are more active editors promoting it. Like I say it would be great if it was the neutral point of view, but it's now (and I'm as guilty as being non-neutral in this as anyone) --Blowdart | ^talk 13:20, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Blowdart for pointing out the obvious with the links you provided. I first removed it here, and then I reverted the edit here. That's it one revert! Blowdart you appear to have put the same link in twice by accident. Thank you also for pointing out this edit were I made you aware of the 1RR rule, it is however posted on the article talk page so you must have missed it. I'm disappointed at the tone you use when you suggest that I "wielded them" on you and suggest you review the edit again. I've also "wielded" them on editors I normally agree with, here and here being two examples, so please accept it in the spirit it was given.

I did? I was thought I was being darned careful too, but you're right. My sincere apologies. Oh and I didn't mean to insinuate that you're only notifying 1RR to those whose viewpoint you disagree with, not at all; but rather that you're not unaware of them. --Blowdart | ^talk 11:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Valenciano I think you should also be cautioned about accusations of tag-teaming. That is, as SirFozzie has suggest here, and if you absolutely have to bring it up yet again, do so in the context of the ongoing ArbCom case with DIFFS that show that they're tag teaming you, not just that they both disagree with you. If you do this again, I will block you for personal attacks. That would apply to Blowdart also.

Tznkai, I'd have to disagree with you with a 3 day block because I did not in fact violate the sanctions. Blowdart inadvertently used the same diff twice. Apart from that however, I think it would be unjustified on the grounds that I have been actively trying to prevent trouble on Troubles articles and despite provocation and incivility I have refused to respond in a like manner. That I have tagged editors that I normally agree with is a point in fact. Could you please review my edits, and if as I have indicated and illustrated above not breeched any sanctions, consider withdrawing your proposal. Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 15:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made no accusation of tag teaming - I said that other editors have raised this issue on several occasions on the past and you've now supplied a difference that shows this to be true. If I recall correctly SirFozzie also said that you were "skating on thin ice" with your comments about other editors. I suggest that you remember that and focus on following the spirit of 1RR rather than making unfounded allegations. Valenciano (talk) 20:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the subject of Domer48 exceeding 1RR, I think s/he did:

edit by Mooretwin followed by revert by Domer48
revert by Mooretwin followed by revert by Domer48

PhilKnight (talk) 21:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you PhilKnight for illustrating that I did in fact Not breech 1RR. As to Valenciano comments, please read my post again, I said you should be be "cautioned" about accusations of tag-teaming, this in light of SirFozzie remarks. While on the subject of SirFozzie comments re: "skating on thin ice" you are also mistaken, and have nothing to do with "comments about other editors." Since you also were mistaken on "Domer's double revert" I can only suggest you consider your comments before making them. This is the perfect example why we should always insist of diff's to support editors unfounded accusations. Thanks again PhilKnight, --Domer48_'fenian' 22:45, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've been trying to find a way to be fair here, trying figure out exactly what the dispute reduces to. There was an edit war involving at least 3 users: Mooretwin, Domer48, and Bigdunc. Mooretwin and Bigdunc broke the existing revert restriction most obviously, Domer48 the least obviously. This whole issue is occluded by partisanship and accusations of tagteaming. I am unwilling and unable to deal with the tag teaming accusations - at the end of the day its indistinguishable from two editors who have a similar point of view.

The purpose of the revert restriction is two fold: to directly prevent edit wars, and to break the habits of edit warring and encourage compromise. Our success at these tasks has been limited, and what little progress made always threatens to unravel at even the appearance of favoritism.

I believe that Domer48 and BigDunc both believe that their actions did not constitute reverting in a way that breached the restrictions - but that does not make their actions not contributing to the edit war. To that end, I am blocking them both for 2 days. This is not a solution that will make everyone happy, least of all me, but I am afraid that is the best I have. I invite other admins to think of better solutions--Tznkai (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is reasonable and reasonably fair I think. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:35, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Nothing actionable. Shell ^babelfish 20:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm posting because I'm concerned with user:Piotrus' closure of 3RR report [5]. This is in relation to the Arbcom caution at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2#Piotrus_cautioned where he is cautioned to avoid using his administrator powers or status in situations in which his involvement in an editing dispute is apparent. Piotrus and Radeksz are close editing associates, for instance as was already found by admins in the previous case [6],(see more on particular envelopment [7]). This surely can't be allowed to go on so soon after such behavior was reprimanded by ArbCom. M.K. (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I caught this earlier when I saw your edit summary on AN/3. I just assumed it was an admin friendly to Piotrus that closed it or someone else ... I wouldn't have thought Piotrus himself would do this so soon after Piotrus 2. Have no idea about the rightness or wrongness of the AN/3 nom, but Piotrus is too involved to have closed it. Yes, this is more than borderline; it is clearly the kind of act that the ruling you cite was designed to prevent. What can or will be done is another question, as an ArbCom caution seems to means very little in practice. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:30, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed; among other things the ArbCom failed to stop users like MK from block shopping or smearing the reputations of others. "close editing associates" - huh? I've noticed editors edit warring on an article on my watchlist, I warned both parties, end of story. My action was already endorsed by other admins. The only questionable thing here is MK stalking certain users (like reporting only one side of an edit war, or complaining about a user (me) he has launched several RfCs and RfArbcoms against, to no avail...). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:30, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You don't think that using admin status to close a AN/3 nomination and try to "save" a user you are known to be aligned/friendly with is a violation of the arbcom caution issued against you? BTW, MK doesn't appear to be smearing your reputation here, though your unjustified allegation that he is doing so could be a smear of him. That he reported you here should no more surprise you than it would me if you reported him or Lokyz (as you have in the past). That's how AE tends to work. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Known to be aligned/friendly". More of your unbacked accusations? And lo and behold, I warned this user. If I blocked him, would you call him my dearest ally? I find your logic strange, albeit not to surprising, considering it was you who launched the last arbcom against me. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize if it is in fact inaccurate, but that you are aligned/friendly I would have thought to have been an obvious truth known to all with experience. The diffs M. K. supplied back the assertion for those with little experience here. Do you deny this? You two don't, for instance, talk to each other by email and such? At the least you know you will be perceived as aligned and thus the faith of any admin intervention is likely to be doubted. At the very very least you know that you and M. K. have long-term issues with each other and that any closure of a listing made by M. K. is unlikely to be interpreted by anyone as neutral. I know you are a smart guy Piotrus, so I don't understand how you could fail to perceive these things ... Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 06:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a game of D&D, Deacon. And frankly, who you perceive as my cabal ally or enemies is not of my concern, and the last arbcom case proved that.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:47, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you answer my question rather than throwing about straw men? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:27, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear User:Deacon of Pndapetzim,

your demeanour is bordering WP:DICKishness.

We all know Wikipedia is not known for the consistency of its procedures. It prides itself for not being a bureaucracy. Yet, amidst that maelstrom of arbitration, there is one policy that is very clear, very straightforward. That policy is WP:3RR.

The only questions to be asked are: was the report accurate? Was the closure within policy? If the answers are 'yes, yes', then the horse is dead and needs no more beating. There are no forms to fill out, there are no inquisitions to be answered by administrators; there is only The Policy.

Attempting to turn a simple case of applying such an extremely simple policy into a circus of parliamentary procedure is a prime example of WP:DICK. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 19:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, the report was misleading, as it reported only one side of an edit war, thus an admin who would have not reviewed everything in detail might have ended up acting out against only one of the pair of edit warring editors... and yes, I agree with you and Shell below that we are witnessing a good example of a "tempest in a teapot". That said, making such tempests can be part of a well-thought strategy. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Piotrus made the right call on the report. Unless there's some contention here that his closing was incorrect, you're creating a tempest in a teapot. Also, if you're going to claim "known to be aligned/friendly", we really need to see some diffs that support the accusation first. (i.e. the first diff doesn't say anything about the issue and the second is simply you repeating the accusation) Shell ^babelfish 11:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To whom you are referring? What accusation?

Why close editing associates? Because:

Piotrus attempted to communicate with Radeksz off-wiki:
- After a revert-war between Radeksz and Piotrus' arch enemy Boodlesthecat, Piotrus (despite being inactive at that time there) requested in the Polish Wikipedia from Radeksz to enable his email. Perhaps due to that Radeksz was inactive there, Piotrus had then requested in the English Wikipedia from Radeksz to look in the "native project" [Polish Wikipedia]. Piotrus removed this note immediately thereafter and Radeksz' email has been enabled since then.
Radeksz is on Piotrus' Christmas card list.
Piotrus has attempted to dissuade the admin who has blocked Radeksz for edit-warring the previous time.
- Piotrus has argued that since he has "warned" Radeksz in Polish about the edit-warring, Radeksz shouldn't be blocked, since there shouldn't be a warning and a block for the same offence if there hasn't been any other offence in between.
  - Now guess why Piotrus is rather quick to "warn" his friends for public offences that might result into a block.
Piotrus asked Radeksz to comment in the Piotrus 2 arbitration...
- This happened after Piotrus had previously told him to address one of his workshop proposals and Radeksz voted "strong support".
Piotrus has referred (ironically ?) to Radeksz as an "ally" .
Piotrus has been in a revert war on the same Armia Krajowa article earlier [8][9]
Piotrus has contested the same piece of information, which was completely removed by Radeksz in the reported revert war.
- Piotrus even told him to address this.
Piotrus has judged at the Edit-warring board that User:M00D0R should receive a warning and has then given him the warning. It should be noted that Piotrus' relation to him is bad enough to consider him as neutral admin, required in such cases per basic policies
- Piotrus accusing him of stalking: [10][11]
- "M0RD00R is certainly biased and non-neutral when it comes to Poland-related subjects"
- "MOORDOOR, please don't muddy the waters"
- Queries at Arbitration/Enforcement: [12][13]
- "I have disagreed with MORDOOR on certain topics since long ago"
- Piotrus filling 3RR case against him: [14] [15] and vice versa.
We have the entire discussion about whether Piotrus is neutral to Radeksz before, so that Piotrus was perfectly well-aware that he is being associated with Radeksz. As well as [16]

So we having non neutral admin, who is a party in a dispute, and using his admin status by closing reports and issuing "warnings" to right and left (newest one directed to me [17] (removed at sight by other admin [18]), therefore it is straight forward neglect of Arbitration ruling, plus it can be seen as neglect of such policies as WP:ADMIN and WP:HARASS as well. The question still stands, how to prevent future abuse of admin status. M.K. (talk) 16:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So I have interacted a few times with those users in a past. So? I have not blocked either of them, instead I've treated them both equally, just as the case (both doing 3 reverts) deserved. I still find it strange that you chose one of those users to report and the other, to ignore... this wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that one of them is Polish and has disagreed with you in the past, would it? Anyway, I've interacted with thousands of Wikipedians, and I believe I can take rational, neutral admin decisions in regards to almost all of them. Several neutral admins have agreed with my decision, so as far as I am concerned, this is EOT. PS. Perhaps for full picture, MK should present the history of his (always failed) attempts to harass me, including one RfC and two ArbCom cases... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:47, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please, read Shell's clear question: [Is there] some contention here that his closing was incorrect ? If there isn't, end of story. If there is, could you, please, present that and not Christmas addresses. I also was greeted by Piotrus on Christmas, and in return did not even bother to say the same. What does Cristmas have to do with all this? Also, please, guys, let's abstain from words like this: I just assumed it was an admin friendly to Piotrus that closed it. Not everybody who once agreed with Piotrus would agree on another occasion. Read the issue, not the user. Dc76\^talk 19:58, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm commenting as the admin who did close the AN3 report, and who removed P's warning there. I think P made a mistake by putting the warning up, but find it hard to see as a serious breach. If we want to pick nits, then technically P didn't use his admin powers in what he did so the arbcomm ruling doesn't apply. Had he issued blocks it would have been different. And the end result was both sides warned, which is what P said, so there is no miscarriage of justice here to worry about William M. Connolley (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Against MK

In addition to the concern over the block removal, the misuse of status against MK should also be noted. "MK is encouraged to stop block shopping against users he doesn't like" posted on AN/3 with the hat of an adminAfter another admin (William Connelly) removed the above, Piotrus "informed" the other admin that M.K. has a a history of stalking and harassing Polish editors; at the very least, his reporting of this case was biased, as he reported only one user (one with whom he has disagreed with several times in the past). Both of these are potentially additional misuses of status. Though I am fully aware little can be done unless it is taken for an arbcom motion, they should at least be noted for the recorded. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It may be of interest to note that the arbitration cited above was started by Deacon after he decided to take another step defending an editor who was stalking/harassing/being disruptive towards me and other Polish editors, having already defended that user against "attacks by Piotrus" in two AE threads when I complained about disruptive actions of that user (Deacon went even as far as overturning a block given out by a neutral admin). The arbitration ended with significant warnings and admonishments towards that user (here and below). Further, the arbitration warned and restricted another user who was found to have been stalking/criticizing me for quite a few years, seeking out threads discussing my person, inevitably appearing there to criticize me and defending anybody who disagreed with me in any fashion (here] and here). I wonder why I am getting a deja vu feeling all of the sudden... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, didn't Deacon start an arbcom aganst Piotrus, that in the end found Piotrus innocent of 99% of Deacon accusations? And didn't MK start several similar proceedings against Polish editors, including Piotrus, with a similar futile outcome? I would strongly recommend people take criticism of Piotrus originating from Deacon and MK with a large quantity of salt. Disclaimer: I have been accused by those editors of being a member of Piotrus/Polish cabal and such, although their accusations are completly false (as proven by arbcom). Tymek (talk) 19:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion moved to RfArb

Interested editors may note that the discussion has moved to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_for_clarification:_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FEastern_European_disputes. I'd suggest closing this thread as to not generate extra wikidramu on two pages.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Grandmaster

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

VartanM blocked for 24 hours by Deacon of Pndapetzim. Shell ^babelfish 17:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster has been POV pushing in the Armenian-Tatar massacres 1905-1907 for quite some time now. He insists on calling Caucasian Tatars Azerbaijanis despite me providing 35+ sources calling the population of what is now Azerbaijan Tatars. Despite the magnitude of sources available on the subject, the article has been stuck in the stub form for years thanks of course to Grandmaster. I broke my 1RR per WP:VANDAL which states Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. I believe the change of Caucasian Tatar to Azerbaijani is unacceptable and constitutes to vandalism just like if someone was to change Roman to Italian. VartanM (talk) 09:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since VartanM filed a report on me, I think it would be good to take a look at his own behavior in the article Armenian-Tatar massacres 1905-1907‎. First of, VartanM has been placed on editing restriction back in December 2007: [19], which limit him to 1rv per week. Yet in the aforementioned article he made 2 rvs today, both times with inflammatory comments: [20] [21] I would like to draw specific attention to his 2nd revert, where he calls vandalism my good faith edit, supported by reliable secondary scholarly sources. He insists on using an obsolete ethnonym for Azerbaijanis, without clarification, that Tatar was what Azerbaijani people were called in the Russian empire, despite the fact that I cited many sources about that. The claim about 35+ sources supporting VartanM's position is not true. In fact, those sources say completely the opposite. I provided quotes on talk of the article. And him calling my edit vandalism, leaving such messages at my talk, [22] and deliberately violating his 1rv per week parole is absolutely not acceptable. This looks very much like baiting other users. And the fact that as soon as he broke his parole he came here to report me speaks for itself, it is nothing but an attempt to divert attention from his own violation. Grandmaster 12:23, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Changing roman to Italian wouldn't be vandalism. It'd be somewhere between silly and historically inaccurate, but it falls within reasonable content dispute. Deliberately compromising the integrity of Wikipedia is a high standard reserved for... well, not this.--Tznkai (talk) 16:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would like the admins to address deliberate violation of revert parole by VartanM. Is he allowed to do that by accusing other editors of vandalism? Grandmaster 16:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Silly and historically inaccurate is if its done once. But not when a user has been edit waring and pushing a pov for years not supported by the academia and has effectively stopped the progress of the article, despite the 35+ sources available in the talkpage. That's when I can loudly accuse him of vandalizing the article and wikipedia's integity, and I have all the proof in the history of said article. VartanM (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are no 35+ sources on the talk of the article that support VartanM's position. I already explained that those sources do not support what VartanM claims, in fact, they say quite the opposite. I quoted them at talk of the article. So constant referring to 35+ as supporting VartanM's position is just an attempt to mislead the admins. Grandmaster 05:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is simply outrageous, it's almost impossible that you are not aware that what you are claiming is a complete fabrication. The article was renamed on the basis of that 35+ sources, now you came up with this lie about what I am allegedly doing and my alleged intentions. Please assume good faith, particularly when you know that your allegations are not true. Worse is that you perfectly know that your version is inaccurate and bogus. The sources of the time ALL! Were either writing Tatar or Tartar, which by no means you have even denied. But yet you still introduce this claim that the Russians referred to them as Tartars... (no one will guess, that it was everyone, not just the Russians). But you had the audacity to push that used term further back, by even adding the term Azerbaijani there too! Two different sources were provided that Tatar also included other Muslims, non-Turkic Muslims. If you had good intentions, you would not have done that, particularly when two articles were renamed because it was shown again and again that you can not do that.

If at least one administrator was to do his homework and check what the problem is, and how you kept bringing it back, knowing full well that you are wrong, then he'd be forced to conclude that what you did was in fact vandalism. If administrators want to see real example of misleading, they should read this sort of edits, where you try to provoke me, by making claims which you know are baseless... or worst that you did not check what you were reverting (again!). For those who have no clue, check his claim: Are you trying to say that Armenians fought with some unknown Tatar people, who had nothing to do with Azerbaijanis? Now dear admins, check the version he reverted: Caucasian Tartars (modern Azerbaijanis)... worse is that I even disagree with my own compromise. But for the sake of peace, I compromised. I rest my case. VartanM (talk) 19:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is not about the name of the article. It is about how to refer to the people involved in the fight, i.e. whether to use anachronistic terms or modern ones. As one can see from numerous sources that I cited on talk, most modern secondary sources use the modern term, Azerbaijani, or Azeri. In any case, content disputes are not vandalism, as you have already been explained. --Grandmaster 06:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This "Azerbaijani" issue keeps cropping up, and will probably continue to crop up until it is resolved by outside arbritration who can cut through the vested interests. In a pre-Republic of Azerbaijan context, changing Azeri (or Azeri Tartars, or Azeri Turks) to Azerbaijani is exactly like changing Roman to Italian. I even saw a recent Azerbaijani English-language news article using the word "Azerbaijanian"! If Azerbaijan wants to use words in such a laughable way then that's their business, but Wikipedia should follow the standards set in other articles. Personally I think "Azerbaijani" should not be used as an ethnic term for any period, it actually describes a nationality: a citizen of the modern country that calls itself Azerbaycan. Meowy 20:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sharing your personal thought is much appreciated. Too bad historians, ethnographers and linguists have made their own educated choice, and that is using the terms Azeri/Azerbaijani in an ethnic sense since at least the late 19th century. As for Azerbaijanian, this term was a preferred translation offered by the bulk of Soviet-published English-Russian dictionaries, nowadays rather archaic but still valid. I believe I have already suggested that you do some research before jumping in with ridiculous and easily rebuttable statements driven by your badly concealed disdain of anything that has to do with Azerbaijan; something that has really grown old by now. Parishan (talk) 06:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Continue your continuous bad faithed and incivil remarks against other members Parishan. I hope at least once, one day an administrator will check your longstanding content disruptions only paralleling those of AdilBaguirov. One for example over here. Even throwing an alleged consensus and requesting a reply when you twisted authors words. And when you are reported, it's ignored and archived.

Reminding the administrators that Parishan created articles which are fabricated history from top to bottom. He even ignores criticism, not bothering to address them nor read them. See here and here about some of the issues on why the article is inaccurate. And see here the only reply Parishan provided that shows he read nothing. What makes things even more ironic is that he likes using that single quote from Shnirelman so much (out of context). It didn't seem he had any use of Shnirelman who wrote so much about the Albanian Church (the article Parishan created) and who considers his creation top to bottom (there is little which Shnirelman didn't cover from Parishan's creation) as a complete fabrication (which is shared by the mainstream Academia). VartanM (talk) 19:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you disagree with other editors, why you never follow the dispute resolution procedures? Constantly accusing others of vandalism, fabrication, disruption, etc is a severe breach of WP:AGF, and is not helpful at all. Parishan created many good articles, including the one about the Church of Caucasian Albania, which became a DYK and third party users involved in talk of the article did not see any serious problems with it. So what's is your point in mentioning that one here? Grandmaster 07:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And I still expect someone to address deliberate parole violation by VartanM. If it is Ok to violate the parole, then everyone should feel free to do the same. A clarification on that would be much appreciated, as this place is intended not for discussion of content issues, but for reporting violations of sanctions imposed by arbitration. Grandmaster 07:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since it appears that VartanM is under AA/AA2 restrictions and he's violated those restrictions an article ban might be appropriate here. Not only did he violate the revert restriction, but by calling those reverts "vandalism" that probably steps over the line of the civility restrictions. Shell ^babelfish 11:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So you're basically saying that you don't care if someone was to rename, Roman Empire to Italian empire and you would ban the user from the article who reverted such a misleading statement. Did you even look at the talkpage of the said article? VartanM (talk) 20:22, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So basically you're saying that the rules shouldn't apply to someone when they think they're right? Shell ^babelfish 20:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So you're basically saying that we should tolerate outright vandalism now? Perhaps the admins should acquaint themselves with the matter on hand before advocating such impulsive solutions as "article ban"? What Parishan and Grandmaster as well as a number of other editors by extension are engaged in is a systematic attempt to introduce anachronistic terms that clearly do not belong in the periods on hand. I'm quite surprised that this concept has eluded all of the admins this far. Speaking of which, whatever happened to the complaint filed against Parishan?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the accusations of vandalism are a breach of civility supervision both VartanM and MarshallBagramyan has been placed on as part of their editing restrictions. Since they keep on repeating the same accusation over and over, despite being explained that there was no vandalism, I believe the admins should also address civility violations of the aforementioned users. And Marshall, do you even know what "anachronistic" is? If anything, it is VartanM who is introducing anachronistic terms to the article in question, while most modern sources which I quoted on the talk of the article use the modern term. In any case, this is not a place for content disputes. There are dispute resolution procedures that VartanM never tried to follow, and he deliberately violated his 1rv per week parole. Grandmaster 05:50, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now someone needs to make a decision on arbitration enforcement. Grandmaster 18:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So constant referring to 35+ as supporting VartanM's position is just an attempt to mislead the admins. [23] Go by your own standards of assuming good faith. Don't take it wrong, but Marshal's level of English is obviously above yours, check the definition of anachronism here on Wikipedia. That's exactly what you are doing. You don't even deny it, Yes, Azerbaijani people were called Tatars back at the time. [24] Among the several sources provided here are the four which you decided to ignore:

Azerbaijani national identity is a recent growth, following a period in the early twentieth century when Azeris identified themselves with other … (New Terror, New Wars, Paul Gilbert, Edinburgh University Press, 2003 p. 61)

Azerbaijan features an official national identity based on an improbable blend... In actuality there has been little historical basis for national identity formation among Azeri elites. ... (National Identity and Globalization, Douglas W. Blum, Cambridge University Press, (2007) p. 106 )

Azerbaijani national identity is a relatively recent formation: before World War I, the people of this territory were alternatively referred to as Turks, Tatars, and Caucasian Muslims. (Language Policy in the Soviet Union, Lenore A. Grenoble, Springer, 2003, p. 124)

In fact, the very name Azerbaijani was not widely used until the 1930s; before that, Azerbaijani intellectuals were unsure about whether they should call themselves Caucasian Turks, Muslims, Tatars, or something else. (Modern Hatreds, Stuart J. Kaufman, Cornell University Press, 2001, p.56)

I'll requote what vandalism is: Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. On the above diff, you admitted that what you reverted was not accurate and that those people were in fact called Tatar. You also know that Russians weren't the only ones who called them Tatars and on top of that you added the Azerbaijani term even with the term Tatar. You suppressed a word, which by your own admission was accurate. If there can be a better evidence to show deliberate change, I hope the admins will provide us with such evidence when they revert changes of birth dates with nonsense without any proof on the intentions of the editors to call it deliberate. I'm also intrigued by their silence about Parishan's disruptions. AA2 clarified that now every sort of disruptions can result with blocks and bans. This gives any uninvolved admin the right to ban for content disruption and that's why Grandmaster was reverted. The only replies we have received so far is on my alleged violation of 1RR, but nothing about whatever or not Grandmaster's edit was acceptable. VartanM (talk) 07:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*poke* Any other admin opinions on the suitability of an article ban for VartanM and/or length of such a ban? Shell ^babelfish 20:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree there wasn't a legitimate reason to go over 1RR, so a ban could be applied, but it doesn't appear to be an especially serious breach of conduct. Perhaps a 1-week ban from the article, but not the talk page? PhilKnight (talk) 22:11, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An enforcement block is necessary here, especially given the intransigence above. We can't have users thinking they can violate restrictions by making disingenuous citations of WP:Vandalism. I'm giving him 24 hours. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 08:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User:VartanM has been engaging in POV-pushing and systematic deletion of information somehow related to Azerbaijan. I recall him and his supporters accusing me of Armenophobia on Arbcoms for adding Azeri names to multilingual lists, where Armenian was also present. If that is a phobia, then what should one call the active ridding of Wikipedia of numerous pieces of information mentioning Azerbaijan, Azeris or the Azeri language?

He distorted information in the article Azerbaijani language making a false claim and trying to tie it to a source (the source refers to the time when the official name for Azerbaijani was тюркский - 'Turkic' (rarely translated as Turkish), which does not suggest what VartanM claims).
He removed [25] [26] [27] a sourced piece of information on Azeri being the lingua franca of the region. Upon further discussion with a third party, he agreed to a compromise version, but later was unable to provide sufficient argumentation with regard to new evidence in favour of my arguments. As a result, he initiated an edit war refusing to leave a relevant comment on talkpage and using the outdated compromise version as pretext for reverting [28] [29] [30]. Having been placed on 1RR VartanM engaged in what seems meatpuppetting to me, and had the article reverted first by MarshallBagramyan, then by Fedayee, again with no comment on talk. At least in the case of the latter the act of meatpuppetting is obvious given that his recent contributions have been limited merely to adding interwiki and tags to articles.
He deleted the Azeri spelling of the name of the Armenian poet Sayat-Nova, whose surviving works are mostly in Azeri. Moreover he claimed that 'there was no Azeri' back then, despite academic sources indicating that it was Azeri that the poet wrote in.
Without any adequate explanation, he replaced Category:Azerbaijani music with Category:Turkish music, as opposed to just adding the latter.
He was recently reported by myself for making xenophobic comments against Azerbaijan on Talk:Albert Asriyan in suggesting that Azerbaijan has no violinists of its own and therefore is in need of "stealing" them from other cultures. In that same case, he repeated his insulting statement, not once but twice. He got off with a warning. He made similar claims earlier in that it was understandable why he could find few sources mentioning Azerbaijani film director Seyidzadeh, as "not everyone can be Parajanov's" (Sergei Parajanov was an prominent Armenian film director). He is also known for his inappropriate and disrespectful comments in edit summaries: [31] and [32]. Just now, he accused me of creating an article based on fabricated facts, even though every source that I used for that article was neutral. I am fed up with this user's inability to take responsibility for his words. The many warnings he has been getting do not seem to do the trick.
He stripped the article Names of Jerusalem of the Azeri name saying it was not "biblical", without further explaining what that meant. In the many discussions VartanM and his supporters had with me over the inclusion of Azeri into that article, none of them ever managed to justify their point despite trying hard to do so. It seemed like a case of screaming phobia towards Azeri, much like the listed activities by VartanM.
He mass-nominated Azerbaijan-related images for deletion: [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39].

The aforementioned facts lead me to believe that one of VartanM's main objectives on Wikipedia is to obsessively rid it of references to Azerbaijan. Whatever he cannot get rid of, he makes insulting comments about. I fail to understand this behaviour and hope measures are taken to stop this continuous destructive manifestation of bad faith.

As for User:MarshallBagramyan, this user seems to have some serious attitude problems. Quite honestly, I am getting tired of him constantly labelling my activity on Wikipedia as "BS" [40] [41] both before and after being reprimanded for incivility. Parishan (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Wikifan12345 and User:Brewcrewer

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Wikifan12345 is warned that if he makes any further accusations of antisemitism he is going to be banned from editing the article and talk page. Brewcrewer is advised to be more careful in his comments, so as not to make a tense situation worse. Finally, Tundrabuggy has been warned, because of his unhelpful antisemitism remark. PhilKnight (talk) 19:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) has been engaging in some very unpleasant personal attacks against other editors on Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, accusing them - without any justification as far as I can see - of being anti-Semites and of engaging in anti-Semitism [42] [43]. Multiple editors have asked him to withdraw or remove his accusations, but he has responded with scorn [44]. He has been warned to desist by RomaC, Elonka and myself, but has twice deleted these warnings from his talk page and has continued to make personal attacks [45] [46].

Given this apparently wilful behaviour, the standing prohibition on personal attacks and the arbitration sanctions on this article, I believe arbitration action is necessary in this case. Wikifan12345 seems to have been engaged in little more than unproductive bickering and insulting the editors on Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, so I suggest that a ban on participation in that article would be appropriate, along with a block for the personal attacks.

I am also concerned at this intervention by Brewcrewer (talk · contribs)'s on Wikifan12345's talk page, which seem to be both a series of personal attacks against other editors and a call to treat Wikipedia as a battlefield. It's a clear violation of the arbitration sanctions; I suggest a warning for now.

For the record, I'm not involved with this article, but as I've edited elsewhere in the topic area it would be best if another admin could take the necessary steps here. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, you are extremely involved in I-P area, and virtually without fail look to sanction pro-Israeli editors and to weaken sanctions against pro-Palestinian editors. It strikes me that you are not the best one to be taking this to ANI. Also, the area is a battlefield as far a both sides are concerned. It is simply much easier to remain civil when the overwhelming population of editors on a page are editing from your POV. To pretend that somehow the pro-Israel (dare I say, the Jewish State) POV is the side turning this into a WP:Battle is fantasy. The pro-Palestinian side is the side stonewalling and essentially demanding ownership of the article against all comers. The pro-Israeli side is simply not taking every violation to some board, looking for sanctions. Instead we have run the talk page to ~ something over 30 pages in as many days, trying to work toward WP:CONSENSUS. This area is very hot right now and I think a little blowing off is hardly the end of the world. It might be better if an admin really tried to do some serious mediation and help guide things along amicably, instead of trying to knock off pro-Israeli editors. With respect Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is not AN/I, and it's precisely because I've occasionally edited other I-P related articles that I've brought it here for action rather than slapping Wikifan12345 with a ban or block myself. It's disappointing but not really surprising that you should be trying to excuse his behaviour. Calling other editors "anti-Semites" is not "a little blowing off", it's an unacceptable personal attack and it's expressly prohibited by policy. Arbitration sanctions were applied to this topic area specifically "to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Wikipedia as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles". It's not a matter of going a little bit over the line; it's a blatant violation which came after RomaC's earlier warning about personal attacks. There is no inequality of treatment here. If you think someone on the pro-Palestinian side has breached arbitration sanctions, you have just as much right as anyone else to raise it here in arbitration enforcement. Finally, I'd advise you to tone down your own overt hostility and assumptions of bad faith - this page is not a good place for it, particularly as you're already serving a month's ban from editing that article. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've got this page watchlisted, seeing as how the obviously inapplicable request to consider triggering restrictions against me has not been withdrawn. ChrisO, I didn't look at anything Wikifan12345 has said or done here, but I did glance at Brewcrewer's comment. Brewcrewer wrote to Wikifan12345: "I encourage you to try to edit the article and try to interact civilly on the talkpage, but when things get too crazy just move on to another article that is of interest to you." There's no way in tarnation that that is a "call to treat Wikipedia as a battlefield." Quite the opposite. No warning is called-for there, whatsoever. Nada.Ferrylodge (talk) 01:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That advice isn't too bad, but it's the preceding lines that concern me: "The swarm of nasty pov-pushers butchering the article in the name of a consensus are really out of control. I generally avoid the article because I don't want to find myself in a situation where I would lose my control and tell these pov-pushers where to go ... Hopefully, one day the pov pushers will go back to their porn habit ..." That kind of comment is not helpful, particularly where tensions already exist. I don't think it merits a block but Brewcrewer needs to be reminded that he should not be personalising disputes. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I too wish that all POV-pushers at Wikipedia would go back to their porn habit. But that's not a personal attack is it? I haven't named anyone, after all.Ferrylodge (talk) 01:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not get hung up on the naming issue. Look at the big picture: it's obviously a highly contested article, tensions are running high and it's very unhelpful for editors to denigrate each other in this way. Derogatory comments about editors, individually or collectively, are ipso facto a type of personal attack; that kind of hostility needs to be discouraged. As I said, a block is not necessary at this stage, but the point certainly needs to be made clear. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd think a friendly reminder to Brewcrewer would suffice. Anyway, I just hope that whoever runs this AE page will dispose of my matter before yours! :-)Ferrylodge (talk) 02:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do think Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) stepped over the line with Hitler analogies and calling other editors antisemitic when they did not agree with him. Bandying accusations of antisemitism is highly offensive, he was asked to strike the comments by several editors but refused, he was cautioned on his talk page by several other editors and simply blanked the cautions. That's not productive behavior in my opinion. On the other point, I don't regard Brewcrewer's comments as problematic. RomaC (talk) 02:24, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I was unable to defend myself because User:ChrisO blocked me after requesting my involvement. Kind of odd. Anyways - RomaC, my Hitler analogy was not directed at any user - it was in reference to Richard Falk. And not so much comparing Falk to Hitler, which I emphasized quite simply, but how we were giving Falk too much credence and not balancing the section. For further info regarding such discussion, Falk section

The accusations of Antisemitism was the result of my interpretation of users User:Nableezy, User:Untwirl, and many others refusal to agree to information that did not reflect their own personal opinion. I tried to rationalize what was going on, why they wouldn't agree. Their excuses were rather short-sighted, or again POV-pushing like User:Nableezy insisting the war was a genocide. I didn't go around slamming people who didn't agree with my ideas as anti-Semitic, only disagreements that had no justification. If you take a look at my original propositions, you will find that my manner was more than appropriate. If you want to disagree with me that's fine, but if there is no logical or rationale evidence that supports your disagreement, and you refuse to concede or come to a compromise, I will most certainly examine the situation and call it according to what is is (or in my case - antisemitic). In retrospect, this was a bad call. Which is why I headed to the warning that I take a break from the article which I voluntarily did. But please keep in mind, I've been called or references as an extreme-Zionist many times in these types of articles (Israel and the apartheid analogy), which I am most certainly not. Never had there been such a fuss, as I didn't think it was part of the problem. There was so much POV-pushing and nothing was getting done that it's just part of the game for people to get mad. I'm not defending my unfriendly response, but I really hope you can in the least empathize with the circumstances. The talk was nothing short of a huge bandwagon, and many users agree with me. Again, I apologize for my approach, and will voluntarily take a break from 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict if desired. And I must say, I never even edited the article. Not a single edit if I recall. I prefer coming to a consensus in talk as revert wars seem to be a major issue in those kinds of articles. Be that as it may, I don't think I will ever edit the article unless it's grammar or vandalism. Too much trouble and it will likely be reverted regardless. Ok - my point is: it seems this arbitration is labeling me as a total troll, which I am not. Also, User:RomaC, correct me if I'm wrong - but I'm pretty sure you were on the opposite fence of the discussion in the article. Does that pose a conflict of interest? Or I may be confusing you with User:RolandR. Hmm, anyways.

Also also also, please refer to my talk page for further info on the matter. I was discouraged by User:ChrisO involvement, seeing as he and I have a lengthy history on similar articles Israel and the apartheid analogy where he was accused of over-stepping his bounds as an admin to push opinions outside of the consensus. I'd also like to request a delay for further "sentencing" so I can formulate a response. It seems there is heavy discussion on my user talk page User:Elonka's, and several other areas of this site. I hope we can condense it all to make this easier. And, I hope we can have administrators who were not involved in past disputes to arbitrate as well. Thanks! edit: Sorry for grammar, will clean later.Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I never once called this war a genocide, in fact I said quite clearly that it was not. There is not a single anti-semitic comment that I made in the entirety of the 30 odd archive talk pages in that article. Not a single one. Every other editor involved in the discussion told you that you were out of line to make that accusation, yet you stood by it and continue to do so. Nableezy (talk) 15:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I didn't see your response User:Nableezy. According to the discussion, you did refer to the recent war as a genocide. Maybe it was in jest, but you did: You are right, I salute Israel for not completing a genocide. What tremendous moral fiber they must possess. I can't seem to find it, perhaps you deleted it or perhaps I'm just not a good researcher: but if you search, genocide it will be on the first page: Genocide

Another quote proving the woeful ignorance of another user:

falk and the un are reliable, notable, and npov - User:untwril

A little off-topic, but here is another quote from User:Nableezy that demonstrates his extreme POV: It is the character of the occupation that gives rise to sharp criticism of Israel's approach, especially its harsh blockade of Gaza, resulting in the collective punishment of the 1.5 million inhabitants. By attacking the observer rather than what is observed, Israel plays a clever mind game.international Wikifan12345 (talk) 17:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is untrue to claim you were "unable to defend myself because User:ChrisO blocked me after requesting my involvement." I warned you at 12:45, 3 February 2009. That was the first contact I'd had with you. ~~You were not blocked at that time or any point thereafter.~~ (Added: It looks like you were caught in an autoblock - I'm guessing this was accidental collateral damage from another blocked user on the same network. That does happen occasionally.) Elonka gave you a separate warning at 18:10, 3 February 2009. You blanked both warnings at 22:06, 3 February 2009, without responding to either. There has been nothing to stop you from replying to any of the three warnings by myself, Elonka and RomaC, or retracting your personal attacks, but you have not done so - even now. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Am I not allowed to blank warnings? Your warnings were simple cease-and-desist and did not request for a response. Unless you're definition of response is listening, then yes, I followed Elonka's warning and ended my involvement in the talk discussion. What, I say I'm sorry or you're going to ban me from editing? Seriously Chris? If this is your main concern, then I'm sorry. I truly am sorry. Now, please review my lengthy post above and if you have any further complaints, don't hesitate to add them here. Thanks! Wikifan12345 (talk) 08:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not me or Elonka to whom you need to apologise - we're not the ones you attacked. I'd suggest that you do as the other editors on that talk page requested and remove your accusations of anti-semitism. I think doing that would show good faith on your part. I do appreciate that you may be getting frustrated, but you might like to take a look at Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot for some practical advice on how to deal with that. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You want me to tamper with the evidence? Yeah, I don't think that is a smart move. And as I said, I've explained my rationale for my statements. I didn't go around trolling the talk like you are insinuating. I apologize if I actually offended anyone, though I doubt I did. They're still continuing their extreme-POV pushing and my fuss did nothing to stop it. In fact, I may very well get banned - even a greater win. : )

So Chris, I'm sorry. But I'm not going to write out a confession and cry my eyes out for saying something I sincerely meant. But, I am sorry if I actually offended anyone and if my behavior was considered inappropriate beyond typical Israel/Palestinian arguments. The core of my argument is trying to distant myself from what I said, but also emphasize the double-standard being applied. The users who have reported me have step the bounds of NPOV many times, and the article itself screams bias. I like to consider myself a logical thinker sometimes, so when I see someone acting antisemitic, I tend to say it if they continue to impose their extreme agenda and refuse to even enter a consensus and their responses give me that impression. My comments have antisemitism were not an accusations wirled at those who disagred with me. I went along with the bandwagon for several pages until I realized it was going nowhere. If the users I accused are not antisemitic, then what explains their unchanging refusal to appreciate suggestions outside their own? If there was a logical explanation for their disagreement, instead of fallacy-loaded rhetoric, I would have totally agreed. It's not like I have a history of slamming those who disagree with me as antisemitic. In fact, it's just the opposite, many users who share similar opinions have been berated with Zionist insults accusations, even in the presence of admins like User:ChrisO. You might have to sift through the Israel and the apartheid analogy discussion, but it's there. I mean seriously, how can I be completely and totally wrong and their opinion is 100% factual and neutral. I don't see the logic in that. Again, I apologize for my statements and will voluntarily remove myself from the article, but the illusion that banning me from the article and banning me from editing indefinitely will magically erase the blatant POV-pushing which clearly is the source of the problem is rather silly. All I wanted to do was improve the article, or at least minimize the overt-bias, but no one wanted to. And if you take a look at the user pages whom I have accused, and the user pages in the talk, you will notice a pattern in opinion. ; ) Also, it's kinda hard to respond when people add in posts inbetween discussions. Can we just continue the talk up-to-down...? Wikifan12345 (talk) 17:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, issues in this area seem to be a bit convoluted, but here's my take: Wikifan12345 made a comment labeling other editors as anti-semitic over a disagreement; he also called their viewpoints insanity and made other unnecessarily personal remarks. Looking at his history (not many diffs were given here) it looks like he occasionally gets too involved and has an outburst like this. That seems to be pretty typical behavior in this editing area, not that everyone shouldn't work to be better, but meh.

So, how about Wikifan agrees to work on walking away from the computer instead of ranting, with the understanding that continued outbursts will result in a mandatory break from the topic area? And as a side note, Brewcrewer, its one thing to share frustration over editing, but if possible, try to make sure that you're not going to be stirring up an already tense situation. Like it or not, working on P/I articles means something different than working on most of the rest of the project. Shell ^babelfish 08:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But I hope this applies to everyone, especially those that actually edit articles. Expecting users to honor the system 100% of the time regardless of circumstances is kind of ignorant. I'm sorry if people were offended, but I believed at the time my calls were sincere and justified. I was more than accommodating, but it was like arguing with a stonewall. Either you get with the program or your "unproductive." This type of mob-rule is quite common in Israel/Palestinian articles, and to cherry-pick users like myself while ignoring the much larger source of the issue doesn't make sense in my opinion. Other users have reiterated my "controversial" beliefs, so this is nothing unique. I'm not perfect, and the POV-pushing users who continue to use their extreme bias to influence articles without warning/administrative action are far from perfect as well. And I need to emphasize, whatever bias I carry I never used it to influence the actual article. I firmly believe a reasonable consensus/comprise is necessary to promote a more productive and active environment, but when users who share identical beliefs and group up to further push their collective agenda, it's extremely difficult to not get mad. And, as I've stated before, ChrisO's involvement is highly suspicious, and I hope that is addressed soon. ; ) Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:10, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So one editor gets canned for 2 weeks for telling someone to "fuck off", while another who hurls antisemitic rhetoric gets the wrist-slap, and maybe a firmer wist-slap if it happens again? Something is wrong with this picture. Tarc (talk) 14:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was never involved in the recent dispute with [User:Eleland], but in the past he's been extremely unkind and has called me and others Zionist epithets several times. I never ever reported him and honestly don't think he should have been canned because these controversial articles simply beg for inappropriate responses. Wikipedia assumes everyone should be neutral, but most people are not, especially in political talk. So when there is a huge bandwagon, whether it be pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian, telling someone to "****" off in my mind can be a rather reasonable response to the way people are treating you. I mean, when I'm interpreting the loaded responses with bandwagoning, and not a single user is appreciating my suggestions, and it seems every user who isn't understanding clearly has a conflicting POV, and none of them will even consider ideas outside their own, I feel like they're telling me to "****" off, even though they aren't saying it. I'm sure User:Elelenad deserved it and I am in no way defending his case, but I really hope that the admins can understand the kind of pressure we are in. There is a huge lack of moderation, and when people complain, it's mostly to get rid of people like me who have a different opinion. They piss you off, bate you, and when you react - "time for punishments!" Anyways lol.

If necessary, I'd be happy to point out the hypocrisy and prove my case of bandwagoning. The vast majority of the talk section users sit on the pro-Palestinian aisle, and as result, everyone who says nay is shutdown. Everyone. Especially in regards to controversial sections. From what I see, the ones who are pushing for my ban are those who disagreed with me in the first place and those who have been involved in past disputes, like user user:ChrisO. I like user User:Elonka and consider her opinion to be more than impartial, but she's also been in past disputes. If you want to ban me temporarily go ahead, but Elonka is asking ChrisO is I should be perma-banned from wiki all together - so uhhh. Does he provide enough useful content, that we should only implement a focused ban? Or is a site-wide block more appropriate?

I'd like to emphasize that I never edited the article, and never imposed my obvious bias. Just so you all know. And also, I've been involved in other Israel-related topics that haven't raised this kind of discussion, though the recent one has made an article-starter rather upset: link title That has cooled off from what I remember. Also, if you're just starting to read the discussion again, please look through the posts a second time as I had to edit in more responses because some users posted in between posts. This took forever, almost and hour. Please make an effort to respond to most of the points I make instead of choosing one and ignoring the rest. I doubt this is on purpose, I do it too sometimes, but since my privileges as an editor are at risk, I hope you do your best. Cheers. Wikifan12345 (talk) 17:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There have been plenty of personal attacks on this page from users on both sides of the aisles. And while I am not into labeling people and calling them names, one has to remember that this article concerns a conflict/war in which one side in the conflict is the Jewish state. And in fact, it is accepted definition of antisemitism that there is antisemitism in relation to Israel. [47]. It includes such things as

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Certainly the idea of double standards have been brought up time and time again in the talk in this article, in relation to sourcing, what is included in the article and what is left out. A user can be excused for believing that some of the editors (and even some of the admins) may be antisemitic or motivated by this. I agree that it is best not to name-call, but give me the rest of the day and I can find plenty of (egregioius) examples of name-calling from the other side. Mind you I have a life outside of wiki. I say warn wikifan and let it pass. As for Brewcrewer, he was talking on a personal talk page only, did not name names, and frankly gave Wikifan good advice. This should never have come up. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, this edit conflict is extremely annoying. I'm not very technical with wikipedia formatting and when discussions get so huge it's hard to go through every paragraph. Here is my recent discussion, I just pasted everything from the start. If someone would be so kind as to put the right info in the right spots feel free to, if not...just think of this as an updated copy. It should go right above Tundra's recent post. Wikifan12345 (talk) 17:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

edit, ok I fixed it. But it took forever. I denoted all my updates with *, to make it easier to navigate. Sorry! Wikifan12345 (talk) 17:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, maybe we can section off this discussion like "for", "against", and "comment." I don't know, just an idea. Wikifan12345 (talk) 17:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The 'genocide' line was in response to you saying that Israel could have killed every single person in Gaza in 15 minutes if they wanted to. That would have been a genocide and I commended Israel on not doing so. The second part was not a quote from me, it was a direct quote from the person you were accusing of bias, Falk. Read beyond a single word and you may find that you are incorrect in your assertions. (and you doubled up on some of the comments here, might want to fix that) Nableezy (talk) 17:41, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, you said it. You inferred that the war in Gaza was a genocide, and you comment on their "moral fiber" (sarcasm). Look, I don't care. I don't care that you have an extreme POV. I really don't. But if I'm going to get railed while the rest are free to go, I do care. As tundrabuggy as explained quite thoroughly, there is something inherently wrong with this process. I'd like to think this has nothing to do with my inappropriate language, as far greater acts have occurred within that talk page and no action was sought by any mod, admin, or user. And again, I don't care. I try not to complain, all I wanted was to improve the article - but it's impossible when people won't come to a consensus, and when you tell them the your opinion, you're the bad guy. I seriously believe wikipedia should just toss these kinds of articles because nothing ever gets done and all they do is promote bias one way or another. Bias that will never be solved. It's beyond controversy, it's simply propaganda. Wikifan12345 (talk) 17:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, this discussion could probably be closed now. I agree with Shell that if Wikifan12345 makes further accusations of antisemitism he should be banned from editing the article. Also, I agree that Brewcrewer was making a tense situation worse. Finally, I've left a note for Tundrabuggy, because of his unhelpful antisemitism remark. PhilKnight (talk) 18:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why closed? I just spent a lot of time explaining my case and you have reduced it to something I thoroughly proved incorrect. I urge you to read what I wrote, because you would know I never edited the article to begin with. Thanks! Wikifan12345 (talk) 18:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, article and talk page. Otherwise, I don't see why this can't be closed now. PhilKnight (talk) 19:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I find it rather odd that I offer my explanations to ChrisO and the rest of the gang, and after I've done that, you say the article should be closed and I should be banned. Is this how the process works? I hope this isn't a show trial lol. Btw Phil, what is your take on the Israel article? Where do you sit, partisan wise? I only ask because I'd like to see an admin who is not emotionally invested in the subject to in the least offer their opinion. And by that I mean actually reading what I've written and giving specific comments. Is that too much to ask? If knew the punishments were pre-determined I wouldn't have even responded to the warnings tagged. Cheers. Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems my accusations aren't unique: link title Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No they are not unique, I have had an editor say that I am clearly a Hamas operative, that was because I said 'many consider Hamas a terrorist organization, but many also consider it a resistance organization and it is the current government of Gaza'. Bringing up other people who make wild accusation without cause does not make your case stronger. If you think I am an anti-semite actually point to something that I wrote that is anti-semitic. But the wild accusations of some anon editor dont prove your case. Nableezy (talk) 19:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ferrylodge

WP:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge

Ferrylodge has been giving me a headache on Talk:Abortion, so I'm too close to this to have anything resembling a reasonable perspective. Could someone review Ferrylodge's (and my) edits on Talk:Abortion to see if he's out of line in a way that would trigger restrictions?--Tznkai (talk) 20:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There was a Request to Amend the restrictions to extend them from article space to talk space, eleven months ago. The request was rejected. Even if the request had not been rejected, I would not think anything I said at the pertinent talk page today was disruptive,[48] unless you consider opposing blatant and politically motivated censorship disruptive. No one forced Tznkai to engage in a talk page discussion with me. Apparently she did not enjoy the discussion. Nor did I.

It also seems pertinent that I pretty much ended the conversation before Tznkai decided to bring the matter here. I said: "Given time, I could find lots more and lots better examples for you. But I do not have the time right now."[49] Bringing the matter here seems quite punitive.Ferrylodge (talk) 21:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ferrylodge, you're stepping over the line in a few places there - for example "You are behaving like a censor and a propagandist." is a bit much for anyone to swallow. However, I think the stepping over the line was all into the realm of incivility and personal attacks and not in ways that would trigger the Arb case. The two of you (with a little outside help) are engaged in one of the perennial debates on the subject - is imagery nothing more than an emotional appeal or is the lack of imagery simply poor coverage of the subject. I doubt its something that's going to be solved between a small group of editors (much larger discussions have been held before) so I'd suggest running an RfC or using some other form to notify interested editors about the new image suggestions. Shell ^babelfish 08:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the perspective Shell.--Tznkai (talk) 14:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks for the perspective Shell. I think it would be naive to think that there is no censorship or propaganda at Wikipedia, and this seems to me like a clear case in point. However, I suppose it would have been better for me to say something like "that solution would result in censorship and propaganda" instead of "you are a censor and propagandist". And Tznkai might try to rephrase stuff like "Your very reasoning shows that it comes from an emotional pro-life knee jerk reaction" (plus try reading Arbcom restrictions before trying to get them enforced). :-) Incidentally, I am in favor of legal abortion of embryos on demand, as a means of birth control or for whatever other reason a woman chooses. But that does not mean I favor pro-choice propaganda and censorship on Wikipedia. And let me be very very clear: to have an entire article about abortion, with pictures of women and historical artifacts and surgical procedures and instruments, and the like, without even a drawing of what is aborted in an average abortion (before it is torn apart!), is the worst kind of propagandist whitewashing. I have no regrets about saying so, and will keep saying so.Ferrylodge (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I endhorse Ferrylodge's opinion. I was the one who started the picture discussion and it went nowhere, not particularly shocking, but it must be known that the discussion isn't limited to Ferrylodge and he isn't the only one who has complained. It makes sense to illustrate the process of abortion on an article about abortion. If someone thinks that's offensive, too bad. Wikipedia isn't PG rated. 70.181.150.70 (talk) 18:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC) - Wikifan12345. Sorry, computer is acting weird. 70.181.150.70 (talk) 18:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking as an administrator who believes he has neither particularly strong feelings about the subject matter either way, nor prior involvement in editing the article, I can't see anything that would trigger sanctions on that talk page, and am surprised to see what appears to be a good faith content disagreement wind up here. (Just a thought about that dispute: have you considered looking at how other general reference works have chosen to illustrate their article on abortion?) Sandstein 21:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tundrabuggy and edit warring over images at 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs) banned from 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict article for 1 month (free to edit associated talk page) by PhilKnight. Cerejota (talk · contribs) notified of discretionary sanctions and warned.

I am quite frankly tired of the constant edit warring around images, an a discussion were the arguments change by the minute 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict.

WP:ARBPIA was supposed to take care of this type of POINT behavior, were one editor is warring over content that by any objective measure belongs in an article. I know ArbCom doesn't rule on content, but my issue is not that: is that every time I see consensus developing, positive conversations happening, in comes Tundra and bang, screams "no consensus" reverts everyone, and then generates a new polarization. Reasonable differences are to be expected, but POV pushing to where no consensus is possible is not.

I have tried in multiple occasions to engage Tundra, and have even defended the editor from uncalled for attacks, but the behavior exhibited is not one that moves us forward, but keeps us stuck in a partisan and devisive environment. Let us argue with the dim hope of acheiving a good article, not with the nagging feeling that one is in the talk page of some debate website.

But really, this is the straw:

Tundrabuggy (Talk | contribs) (142,259 bytes) (→Gaza strip: No consensus. POV and unbalanced. Time to take this to arbitration I think)

Ok. ArbCom, ball in your court.

--Cerejota (talk) 07:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly ban Tundrabuggy and Cerejota from removing or reincluding images on this article for a month? PhilKnight (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tundrabuggy is a troll. Ban him permanently. Moreschi (talk) 15:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This comment is outrageous and beyond the pale. Even the editors that are opposed to TB and interact with him on a daily basis have not had the gall to accuse him of being a troll. An admin should know better then to hurl unsubstantiated insults at an editor. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brewcrewer, the above comment is your 13th comment in this thread. I get that you don't like my decision, but it's getting to the stage where I think it's time to suggest you consider putting down the stick, and backing away from the horse. PhilKnight (talk)

Well then, if your counting is correct this is my 14th. But you're in a close-second place, so I wouldn't give up it I were you ;-) If I recall correctly, in the previous brouhaha at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive30#Jaakobou you were also in a hurry to consider the conversation over when a multitude of editors began criticizing your unilateral highly-questionable actions. But turning to the substantive issue if I may, would you like to comment on User:Moreschi's insult above? --brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:26, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Contra Moreschi, I don't think Tundrabuggy is a troll. He seems to be a fairly standard-issue dogmatic ethnic/religious nationalist who sees Wikipedia as a battlefield - a means of promoting his POV and a place to oppose POVs that he doesn't like. Such people tend to go in one of three directions - mellowing and adapting to Wikipedia's requirements, getting frustrated and leaving, or getting blocked or banned for being a nuisance. Tundrabuggy currently seems to be aiming for the latter. It wouldn't be a great loss to us, frankly. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware this is somewhat off-topic, however I asked Moreschi about his understanding of the word troll when he stood for ArbCom, and his definition was basically that of a disruptive or tendentious editor. PhilKnight (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking more in terms of the ED kiddies who like to run around messing things up "for the lulz". Tundrabuggy is certainly tendentious and has been disruptive, but he seems to be motivated more by ideology than sociopathy. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:46, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've had several disagreements with Cerejota on that page, he's new to I/P articles. But I've found him more than amenable to discussion, consensus and good-article building, and he came to that page because of a keen and real interest in military history, which indeed is in part what the page deals with. I won't comment on Tundra, since I'm biased, except to remark, more for comic effect, that I don't believe Cerejota shares outland views like Tundrabuggy's belief that Jews, collectively, constitute 1% of the world's Muslim population. It is hard to work with people who think like that.Nishidani (talk) 16:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Outland? You do the math. 14 million Jews worldwide, 1.5 billion Muslims Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is an aside, however I think he was saying that around 20% of humanity are Muslims, while 0.02% are Jews. I'm not sure if that was relevant to improving the article though. PhilKnight (talk) 20:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes in fact it was absolutely relevant to the WP:UNDUE aspect of the article, since the editors attempting to quash the pro-Israeli perspective, attempting not to include smaller pro-Israeli demonstrations on the grounds that the Arab ones were so much bigger. According to this thinking, we should only include large demonstrations, which would effectively wipe out the pro-Israel voice. The diff presented was an analogy, but apparently blinders on make it impossible for some to see another's perspective except to ridicule it. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Following comments here, and a bit more background checking, I've given Tundrabuggy a 1-month ban from 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, and listed Cerejota as notified of the restrictions. PhilKnight (talk) 19:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very sneaky - posting this here without giving any sort of notice to Tundrabuggy to discuss his edits. I would think the blocking admin would have made sure that TB had a chance to discuss his edits before banning him from the article. Cerejota previously unsuccessfully tried to get TB blocked on some nonsense 3rr violation, so this looks like revenge. This ban was based on some kangaroo court of partisan editors (see block log). I would strongly advise the banning admin to reconsider this ban. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 20:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The page is on my watchlist, and the edit warring over pictures has got out of hand. PhilKnight (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, apparently overlooked by the banning admin was that per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions, a ban must come after some sort of warning, none of which was given to this editor. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 20:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree PhilKnight (talk) 20:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're kidding, right? A vaguely worded warning from his first week of editing nine months ago is the warning?--brew crewer (yada, yada) 20:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The standard message was given to Tundrabuggy June 2nd. This is the same warning everyone else gets, and yes, it covers the requirement dictated by the remedy.--Tznkai (talk) 21:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That satisfies the letter of the ruling, but not the spirit. Turn it around and look at it in the context of some other topic area (say, pseudoscience). Would it be fair to ban an editor for 30 days from an article, without a single warning to their talkpage, and then defend it as, "Oh, well, you were warned 6 months ago, you should've known a ban was coming?" I think that if an editor is editing in such a way that no warnings are needed for several months, that we should do them the courtesy of at least one new "warning shot across the bow" on their talkpage before proceeding to a lengthy ban. --El on ka 21:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. This is not simply a question of bureaucracy. The question is whether Tundrabuggy was aware that the topic area was under arbitration sanctions. Clearly he was - he has been notified before and he is well aware of what is expected of him. It should not be necessary to notify an editor every time he edits a new article in the same topic area or after every arbitrary period of time. If an editor is aware of arbitration sanctions, he should modify his behaviour thereafter. There is no time limit at which a notification "expires". -- ChrisO (talk) 21:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does this qualify as a 'warning shot across the bow'? Nableezy (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's more shocking, it that Cerejota, one of the most partisan editors I have ever come across (see history of Roof knocking) gets some friendly warning while he knows good and well about the Arbcom rules for I-P articles, while TB a relatively new editor, gets blasted with a ban without any sort of valid warning. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 20:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brewcrewer, I notified the entire talk page of the article in question, on a single thread. --Cerejota (talk) 21:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little surprised by the ban as well. Before imposing discretionary sanction bans, the ArbCom requires that a warning be issued to the editor first, to give them an opportunity to moderate their own behavior. I see no such warning on Tundrabuggy's talkpage. --El on ka 21:17, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tundrabuggy has had plenty of exposure to arbitration sanctions before; he certainly can't be said to be ignorant of the restrictions that the ArbCom has imposed on these articles. If I recall rightly, I notified him myself some time ago about arbitration sanctions [50], and I note that his talk page is full of people requesting him to stop edit-warring and reverting against consensus, so there was clearly a problem here that needed to be resolved. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but though you're an administrator, you're also an involved editor in the topic area. I'm more looking for something in the nature of, "Hi, I'm an uninvolved admin. Your behavior lately when you <fill in blank> was not acceptable, and discretionary sanctions are being considered. To avoid this, you need to <fill in blank>." Then, if the editor still ignores a clear warning, then on the next infraction, admins can either choose to warn again, or just proceed to a ban or block. The amount of warnings necessary prior to a sanction can vary depending on a lot of factors: Is this an editor with a history of good content contributions, or an obvious SPA; is the editor antagonizing a lot of other good editors, or are there multiple people that are causing the problem; has the editor been banned/blocked before, etc. My own experience with Tundrabuggy is that when he receives a clear warning from an uninvolved administrator to modify behavior, he does so. But I haven't seen a warning from PhilKnight on Tundrabuggy's talkpage for several months. Instead, TB's talkpage was quiet for days, and then suddenly PhilKnight appears with "You are banned for 30 days". If I were an editor in that topic area (or any topic area), that's not how I'd like to be treated. And even for you, ChrisO, if you were being disruptive, even though you've received warnings (and a ban) in the past, I would hope that any administrator who was concerned about your behavior would do you the courtesy of a warning before placing another discretionary sanction. Isn't that how you would like to be treated? --El on ka 22:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at Cyde's warning. PhilKnight (talk) 22:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

TB has nicely asked Cyde to explain his comment and to give further advice about how to proceed. Ten days have passed and Cyde has yet to get a chance to respond. Most perplexing is that Cyde has not made one edit to the article or commented on the article's talkpage, yet claims to have been "looked over the article history". The article is 30-odd days old and has already churned out 26 archives full of TB's comments and attempts at consensus-reaching. Did Cyde look through all 26 archives? I find it hard to believe. Similarly, PhilKnight claims that the page was on his watchlist and noticed the edit-warring going on for a while. As far as I know, PhilKinght has not made one edit to the article or comment to its talkpage. I have a hard time believing that editors watching the article were unable to find one opportunity to help out with the edit-warring and extreme POV violations that are going on there on a daily basis. I know I should assume more good faith, but I can't help but be suspicious when I see admins swooping out of the sky and issuing bans and refusing to make any sort of attempt at normal discussion with the editor under discussion. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 23:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I watchlist the current month's articles listed on Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues. PhilKnight (talk) 23:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's been suggetsed that a number of people on the talk page opposing Tundra are SPA's, for what that's worth (I can't speak to that, just noting it). Effectively, no warning was given Tundra which is highly improper. June 2nd(?) was a while ago. I'll also note that on Cerejota's talk page, the message reads: "This message does not necessarily mean that your current editing has been deemed a problem..." Is that a warning? I'll answer my own rhetorical question: no. So, one user gets a ban with no warning, and the other involved user gets no ban and no warning... IronDuke 21:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how relevant this is, but I've pointed out the ARBPIA sanctions a couple of times on the talkpage of this article, including reproducing the entire notice once. Anyone who has been editing it consistently over the last couple of weeks will have seen the notice. Avruch^T 22:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to note that the last time PhilKnight has been involved in an Arbitration enforcement issue it was also a very questionable action taken against a pro-Israel editor. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive30#Jaakobou, where PhilKnight issued a "final warning" to an editor after a bunch of uninvolved admins agreed that no warning at all was warranted. I would suggest that PhilKnight remove himself from being an uninvolved admin regarding the I-P conflict. I am not suggesting that he isn't neutral, but I think it's important that editors have true confidence in the system. PhilKnight has apparently lost the confidence of half of the editors at the I-P conflict. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 22:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's true that PhilKnight has "lost the confidence of half of the editors at the I-P conflict" and even if it were that doesn't necessarily mean he's doing anything wrong. This article is a hotspot, with lots of conflict and inappropriate comments and actions flying around. Which "side" you're on is really not relevant - we all ought to be on the side of Wikipedia, and permitting this sort of poor conduct is not to Wikipedia's benefit. Avruch^T 22:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I explicitly disclaimed any ideas that PhilKnight is doing anything wrong. However, as I stated above, it is important the editors involved in the I-P conflict have confidence in the system and trust that they will be treated fairly. Unlike the other uninvolved admins, PhilKnight has clearly lost the confidence of half the editors. Of course "we all ought to be on the side of Wikipedia" and it's the most beautiful thing I've heard today. However, it is important that we be practical and realize what's going on here. There will be partisan editors here at WP for as long as WP exists. Most fundamental is the partisan editors have confidence that the system will treat all partisans fairly. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 22:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I’ve actually been having similar thoughts about Phil, but haven’t been sure enough to post them. Seeing as you’ve opened the discussion, I’ll make my thoughts known. I believe that, in terms of adminstrative actions, PhilKnight is reliably “pro-Palestinian.” I say this purely from my own, anecdotal observations, not from any exhaustive look at his logs. If there is a strong feeling that I make a study of it, I will, though I’d really rather not. I recall that in the Eleland “cunt”/”douchebag”/”He can go fuck himself” affair, wherein Eleland (a pro-Palestinian editor) compared a self-identified Jewish editor with a Nazi (widely regarded as itself being antisemitic), Phil reduced his block to a week, citing in the log that it was based on “rough consensus.” By my count, the feeling was running at about 9 for the block, 9 against, discussion here “Rough?” Yes. “Consensus?” Not at all. Phil does not, AFAIK, take much part in editing articles in the I-P area. This would allow him to appear as “uninvolved” when enforcing ARBPIA decisions, but my impressions leave me with the feeling that he has a strong POV, and that his enforcement efforts are demonstrably one-sided. I’d like to be wrong about this, and would welcome evidence to the contrary. IronDuke 22:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wish that Tundrabuggy had been warned on his talk page before a ban was put in place. That being said, Cerejota did warn him at Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict#edit_summary that this discussion had begun and based on Tundrabuggy's almost continuous presence on the talk page I would find it hard to believe that he was not aware of this discussion before the block came down. I would also like to point out that Cerejota previously referred Tundrabuggy to the 3 revert warning board for removal of pictures of casualties of the conflict (there was some consensus to include pictures of the casualties of the conflict) after which Tundrabuggy continued to remove pictures [51]. A summary of these events can be found at Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict/Archive_25#Pix_.28restored.29. This latest removal is the straw that breaks the camel's back.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 22:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh please, counting Cerejota's warning as something to be reckoned with is like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse. Cerejota himself was blocked a few weeks ago for edit-warring at an I-P conflict article. Cerejota spends most of his time here at WP edit-warring and issuing bogus warnings to editors (see his talk page history). He secretly brought this complaint here without giving TB any sort of notice. The 3rr that he initiated against TB was nonsense and was consequently closed with no action taken. The picture controversy is exactly the type of issue where TB's viewpoint is needed. Unless of course we want the whole article plastered with pictures of dead and burned Arab babies.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 22:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I know you and Tundrabuggy are buddy buddy and it's quite obvious that you hold the same opinions about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. [52] That in itself should be a warning that your edits might lack a necessary amount of neutrality, or give the appearance of a lack of neutrality. But this discussion should clearly be about policy, not politics. We wouldn't be here if Tundrabuggy were just expressing his viewpoint. Tundrabuggy repeatedly removed pictures against consensus and after numerous, numerous discussions where consensus was that they should be kept. It's called edit warring and it can get you blocked on wikipedia. Please take care not to confuse the issues.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 22:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that TB and I are buddy-buddy, and we share similar views about the I-P conflict. However, this conversation should not be about politics nor about who is buddies with who. What's important is that we not confuse a partisan and previously blocked editor's comment as a valid warning. TB has removed the pictures when there was no consensus for the addition of the POV-violative pics. Even with all the SPA's, you guys were unable to get any sort of consensus to turn the article into a picture album of dead Arab babies. If you call me non-neutral because I opposed turning the article into the Holocaust article, then yeah, I'm not neutral.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 22:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't lump me in with the SPAs. As far as being one of the "guys" you refer to, my concern with the page is with the censoring of the pictures, which began with anonymous editors removing them without edit summaries. I am in the group of "guys" who would like to see this page reflect an "honest" portrayal of this war. That includes not forgetting about the casualties. Obviously, this issue goes hand in hand with finding a "balance" on the page that people will accept. Do some of Cerejota's edits look partisan to me? Yeah. Do some of your edits look partisan to me? Yeah. Do some of my edits look partisan to you? I suspect they do. (By the way, don't tell anyone, but I actually secretly do have an opinion about things). What's relevant here however, is the constant edit warring by Tundrabuggy that has gone on over these pictures, which in my opinion, was against consensus. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 23:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There never was a consensus to add a whole bunch of dead-baby pics to the article. Yet TB is the one banned for edit-warring for removing these pics that were added by multiple SPA's without a consensus. Outrageous.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:08, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are confused at what pictures are in question here. But that is irrelevant, or is this discussion about content and not behavior? Nableezy (talk) 00:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you reread the archives. It took a long time to even find a picture of a casualty from this conflict that was properly sourced and copyrighted. There's only ever been one picture of a dead baby that I'm aware of. But Tundrabuggy has removed all the available picture of casualties at one time or another. (Picture of the dead girl [53] [54] [55] [56] [57]) (pictures of bodies at the morgue [58] [59] [60] [61]) (picture of a dead infant [62] [63] [64]) (Picture of a wounded man [65]) But don't worry. I'm sure Tundrabuggy will be back to fight another day.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 00:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To elaborate with an opinion now that I've fully read the rest of this... the requirement for a warning is intended to ensure that folks open to sanctions understand that before they fall afoul of them. We don't need to assume that they'll forget with time once told- clear warning one time is all that is needed to make editors aware that caution is necessary, and awareness is all the warning step is supposed to create.

Since he's an editor in the conflict area, has been warned directly about the IP sanctions, has been warned and cautioned repeatedly about his conduct and has most likely seen my notes about the IP sanctions on the talkpage of the article in question... It seems strange to suggest that Tundrabuggy would have been unaware that his actions left him vulnerable to sanction. If he was aware, then the need for a warning is met. Avruch^T 22:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The idea behind warning is to ensure that an editor is aware of communal norms and special restrictions - Tundrabuggy's behavior has been an issue multiple times before and even though time has passed, there's no reason to believe he would have simply "forgotten" what is and isn't acceptable. Regardless of the special sanctions in this area, his behavior was over the line. Editors who consistently edit war and block/stall consensus should be politely led out of that subject area and encouraged to contribute in places where they can contribute productively. There's only so many times we can say "please don't do that" before we have to acknowledge that the soft touch doesn't always work. Shell ^babelfish 23:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sanction against Tundrabuggy is harsher, and more unilateral, than what I'd have done. But hey, I stopped bothering after I openly displayed my strident anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian bias. Whatever. Within the spectrum of reasonable use of discretionary sanctions. To be honest, some of the behavior on this noticeboard thread is actually much more troubling and sanction-worthy than anything from Cerejota or Tundrabuggy. MastCell ^Talk 00:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I kinda agree with the last sentence. I'm logging out till tomorrow, so everyone can party on without me :-)--brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, MastCell. Missed that, looks like quite the party. Avruch^T 00:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After having reviewed more of the background, I support the ban. It is stronger than I might have issued, especially without a more timely warning, but it is indeed within the scope of allowable sanctions. --El on ka 02:16, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

hang on, "Possibly ban Tundrabuggy and Cerejota from removing or reincluding images on this article for a month?". That would simply be wrong. Cerejota simply reinserted images removed by Tundrabuggy and me (violating WP:POINT on my part) so if you are going to ban anyone for a month it should be Tundrabuggy and me. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:27, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1. Here's a diff showing Tundrabuggy removing an image.

2. Here's a diff showing me violatibg WP:POINT.

3. Here are exhibit A and exhibit B showing Cerejota fixing both edits.

I rest my case. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:03, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well surprise surprise -- a one month ban without even having had a warning or a chance to defend myself in this discussion! How very fair of everybody. I will only say that I am sure that those who support the ban could not have followed this article very well. I have made my case over and over on the talk pages, on ANI boards etc. There was no consensus to add the pictures. The pictures were POV and unbalanced in the article. I was one of many who thought so. I would just ask the banners here one question. Why is it acceptable to leave pictures in for which there is no consensus? Why is it edit-warring when the pictures are POV and unbalanced and there is no consensus? Why wouldn't the burden be on the people who insist on putting them back in despite consensus? Also, since no warning was necessary since I "should have known," I assume there is now precedent to no longer require a personal warning for anyone, and the policy of warning is no longer in effect? Or am I somehow a "special case?" Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand why you'd be angry -- much of the tongue-clucking and head-wagging over your "behavior" comes from editors with a pronounced political slant. It must suck from your point of view, but one can only calmly protest and hope it does some good. IronDuke 02:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks IronDuke, I do appreciate what your support and those of the other editors that have supported me.Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Really? What's my political slant? I'm curious. Avruch^T 03:29, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that I was speaking of you. But you're welcome to say what it is, if you'd like. IronDuke 03:33, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[edit conflict]:::Well, Avruch, I do not understand your position in regard to me. Perhaps you would clarify what exactly I did with that article that was so egregious? I would appreciate it. When there is no consensus to add the material, why isn't the burden on those who insist on adding it? Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well guess I really am the "special case." As User:PhilKnight did manage to give the appropriate warning to Cerejota, despite the fact that he/she "probably was already aware of it" or some such. [66] Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The underlying problem?

Troubling, as MastCell says? Yes, definitely. Let me repost something I said a while ago in that thread that MastCell referenced, because it's still going on today:

Some editors - who don't by any means represent everyone who shares their POV - are using obnoxious methods to delegitimise and intimidate anyone who disagrees with their views. In particular, critics of their views are tarred as racists and enemies of their side. They go further, by attacking in similar terms anyone who disagrees with their debating or editing tactics. They also behave as a faction, using Wikipedia policies as a club to attack their perceived opponents while minimising policy violations by their perceived friends. They are purposefully trying to create a situation in which Wikipedia's policies and conduct standards aren't applied to them or their faction because admins are too intimidated to intervene.

We've seen this over and over again, and we can see it going on now in this thread. PhilKnight is being attacked for acting against a pro-Israel editor. Over on WP:AN/I at this very moment, other members of the same faction are attacking SheffieldSteel for daring to give a pro-Israel editor a 3RR warning [67]. We've just had a very long and bitter AN/I thread in which pro-Israel editors and pro-Palestinian editors have attacked admins for being either too harsh or too lenient in dealing with transgressors [68]. As usual we have bad-faith pile-ons and false accusations of political motives. This kind of barracking is why admins often steer clear of Israel-Palestine issues, because they know they will be attacked by vindictive partisans. Every thread to do with admin decisions on the topic area seems to turn into a bitter hate-fest that goes on for dozens or hundreds of posts. Who could blame uninvolvd admins for steering clear? Personally I think we need to do some spring cleaning and get rid of the worst partisans on both sides; they're not contributing much that's useful anyway. Arbitration enforcement, IMO, should extend to dealing firmly with editors who consistently disrupt talk threads by behaving like petulant children. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who would be some of the partisans on the pro-Palestinian side you think ought to be gotten "rid of?" IronDuke 02:06, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the silence is suddenly deafening. But to Chris' point. It would be nice if those admins who don't steer clear of these areas were to actually go in and make a comment or two on the article's talk page so we know he/she is there, or give a warning rather than to suddenly show up and put nasty comments or bans on an editor's page. One wonders just how much real understanding of the situation such an admin really has, or whether he has been recruited by one of the page's partisans. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'd be quite happy to nominate myself for the role of one of the apparently "pro-Palestinian" editors to be got rid of if that helps smooth things over. Of course the reality is that it wouldn't change anything. The funny/disturbing thing is that simply attempting to produce Wiki articles that describe the objective reality of Israel-Palestine related issues in a neutral and verifiable way based on reliable sources without censorship is often perceived as pro-Palestinian by many editors. Strange but true. Many editors appear to have malfunctioning intentional stance implementations in their brains and perceive bias everywhere. Consequently, objective reality is apparently biased according to this fatally flawed approach. In that kind of environment consensus becomes meaningless and disruptive violations of WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTCENSORED are inevitable. It's similar to the Teach the Controversy, Evolution vs ID issues where many editors (like me) have to spend time firefighting manufactured controversies that have little relation to objective reality. Tundrabuggy, you are a special case in the sense that you have openly stated the political reasons why you object to and remove certain images and the political consequences of including such images from your perspective. You've made your POV quite clear and that's a good thing in my book. However, editing on that basis is inconsistent with what Wiki is trying to do, produce good encyclopedia articles. I personally don't think it merits a ban. It would be better if you simply acknowledged that your political views compromise your approach to editing and try to fix that (...your editing not your political views). Sean.hoyland - talk 05:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are talking out of your hat. I have said and I stand by the fact that the pictures did not improve the article, but rather made it unbalanced. The fact is that it took FIVE DAYS to reach a stalemate over a supposed picture of a burned baby which was supposed to have been run over by an Israeli tank(!) and those "pro-Palestinian" editors like yourself could see nothing wrong with the fact that they were taken by the International Solidarity (with Palestine) Movement or in putting them into the article. You editors could see nothing wrong with showing the faces of dead children, of bodies piling up at the morgue. The fact is that there were many many other editors who agreed with my position, demonstrating that there was no consensus to add them. Tundrabuggy (talk) 06:06, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, I don't have a hat because it's 34C here right now...oh, I see what you mean. We have already discussed the issue to death and the impressive array of arguments brought to the table, almost all of which were inconsistent with guidelines and what we are supposed to be doing here only provided yet more evidence that some editors simply do not want certain kinds of images in this particular article (in quite stark contrast to other articles). This is apparently the case even when the images come from a reliable source such as Al Jazeera. I, like others have repeatedly tried to use rational arguments to at least attempt to get some kind of agreement, even if just in principal that a minimum set of images that describe the basic key features of this event be included. Apparently even that isn't possible despite suggesting as some kind of concession that we use a 1:1 ratio for images from both belligerents. A consensus is meaningless if the views of editors are inconsistent with guidelines. The reality is that a set of editors are advocating the absence of information. I oppose that and so I will inevitably appear pro-Palestinian to those editors. In actuality my objectives are related to NPOV and opposing censorship. I can assure you that I have very strong partisan views about religion based political movements and people who use violence but that is neither here nor there. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My defense

I realise I am already banned but I still feel I have the right to make my case, so here goes. On the 20th Cerejota took this to the EditWar board: ("Contiguous edits count as one, so no vio".) [69]. This led to a note on the article talk page from the admin, William M Connolley [70]. "The edit warring about pictures made it to WP:AN3. Now that the rather emotive destroyed-Israeli-house pic is removed from the intro the article seems vaguely balanced, and I think emotive pix should stay *out* until there is a clear conclusion to the pix discussion above. The current state looks plausible to me. Further edit warring to include them, before the discussion is concluded, will be looked upon unfavourably. William M. Connolley (talk) 08:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)"

Since then, the 20th:

[71] 21:00, 20 January 2009 Cdogsimmons (Talk | contribs) (137,941 bytes) (?Gazans: restored picture, based in part on talk page discussion, that was previously removed by Tundrabuggy) (undo)

[72] 17:55, 23 January 2009 John Hyams (Talk | contribs) (133,525 bytes) (?Casualties: Removing identifyable girl's face per discussion on talk page) (undo)

[73] 21:24, 23 January 2009 Cdogsimmons (Talk | contribs) (133,456 bytes) (Undid revision 266026666 by John Hyams (talk) If anything, there is consensus to keep the girl's image. Not remove it.) (undo)

[74] 16:27, 24 January 2009 Oren0 (Talk | contribs) (133,292 bytes) (?Casualties: re-remove dead girl photo, per discussion on talk. This doesn't serve any encyclopedic purpose) (undo)

[75] 15:02, 24 January 2009 Brunte (Talk | contribs) (133,307 bytes) (Restore DeadGazagirlcloseday14.JPG) (undo)

[76] 15:09, 25 January 2009 Tomtom (Talk | contribs) m (136,432 bytes) (?Incidents) (undo) Remove

[77] 16:38, 25 January 2009 Cdogsimmons (Talk | contribs) (136,080 bytes) (Undid revision 266206061 by Oren0 (talk) re-re-restored picture of dead girl removed by Oreno. No consenus on talk page for its removal.) (undo)

[78] 20:02, 25 January 2009 Tundrabuggy (Talk | contribs) (139,411 bytes) (?Casualties: Removing image on the grounds that there is NO consensus on the talk page to include it, AND that it violates Undue#Balance) (undo)

[79] 22:02, 25 January 2009 Timeshifter (Talk | contribs) (139,770 bytes) (?Casualties: Gallery. Wikipedia is not censored. WP:CENSOR) (undo) (TimeShifter adds 4-5 photos)

[80] 23:38, 25 January 2009 Cerejota (Talk | contribs) (140,606 bytes) (?Casualties: I dislike galleries, and I removed the wounded child picture as overkill, pun not intended) (undo) -- (removed one picture changed the pictures around)

[81] 17:22, 26 January 2009 Tomtom (Talk | contribs) (141,090 bytes) (?Gaza strip: Removed pics of dead girl) (undo)

[82] 17:47, 26 January 2009 Cdogsimmons (Talk | contribs) (141,046 bytes) (Undid revision 266646493 by Tomtom (talk) Please see the talk page. There is consensus for keeping this picture.) (undo)

For an earlier list see [83]

Perhaps PhilKnight and those who chose to ban me for a month will explain a bit more clearly what it was about my revert that they found so egregious? Tundrabuggy (talk) 06:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to edit warring over the images of fatalities, you have also edit warred over the white phosphorus issue. You aren't banned from the talk page, and I suggest you help to build consensus on these and other contentious issues. PhilKnight (talk) 15:27, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:O Fenian

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Enforcement no longer desired--Tznkai (talk) 15:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

O Fenian (talk · contribs) is removing sourced material from Chronology of Continuity IRA actions. This article comes under the The Troubles Arbcom ruling. All of the material is sourced. O Fenian maintains that because some of the sources do not state dates, all of the material for each entry should be removed - rather than letting a fact or cn or even a refimprove template stand for a while so that better sources can be found. Note that many of the current sources are eminently reliable, such as the BBC and the Independent Monitoring Commission. Similarly, rather than amend an entry that had said someone was arrested and charged, he is removing it rather than correcting it to match the source (the Irish Times newspaper), which states the person was sentenced. I warned him about breaching 3rr, sought an administrator's input then remembered this Arbcom and posted about it, saying the article was actually under 1RR - and O Fenian reverted again. I concede his point about some of the sources where material has been removed (dead link, internet forum), but the BBC, Irish Times and Independent Monitoring Commission are pretty reliable. I do suggest that the material be restored with appropriate tags where necessary so interested editors can at least see there is a challenge to the dates and can see if there are additional sources. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 02:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am removing unsourced or improperly sourced information from the article. Bastun points out the BBC are reliable, well yes they are. However the only time the BBC are cited in the information I removed is in this addition;

"9 January 2009 The CIRA issued a statement threatening to shoot drug dealers who were using their groups name as a cover for criminal activity. In the statement they said "Following investigations into drug dealing and allegations of CIRA involvement into activities in Belfast it has come to our attention that some individuals are using the name CIRA to engage in drug dealing activities". Five days later a man was shot in a paramilitary style attack in west Belfast." It is sourced by the BBC and undated link.

I have asked multiple times on the talk page for Bastun to reply to my questions, one of which includes "The BBC article says nothing about the CIRA, so who says it is connected to their statement?" and have received no reply other than the false assertion he has answered the question. Check the BBC article for yourself, it does not mention the Continuity IRA, it does not mention drug dealing, and tellingly it says "They added that a motive for the shooting had yet to be established and that there were no further details at present". So why is Bastun so intent on adding it back to the article to imply a connection between that and the CIRA's statement? That is just one of a number of problems with the material. I have attempted repeatedly to discuss the problems with his edits with him, and received nothing but evasion in response. O Fenian (talk) 02:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bastun, you really didn't explain why the Trouble's ruling would be applicable here. This seems like a content dispute that should be handled through dispute resolution. Shell ^babelfish 03:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The remedy applies to: "All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, the Baronetcies, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related." The Continuity IRA is a splinter group of the Provisional IRA, one of the main protagonists in the Troubles.

What's the guideline for content disputes - revert then discuss? I tried that, and got accused of making a "disgusting revert" and was told never to revert him again. I have answered O Fenian's questions, but even accepting that the references need improvement and including a "refimprove" tag, I get reverted. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 10:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"I have answered O Fenian's questions". Can anyone see where on the talk page or here Bastun has answered questions 2, 3, 4 and 7? This constant evasion and false assertions about having answered the questions are very tedious. O Fenian (talk) 12:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside you're both over the 1RR rule for Toubles related articles. --Blowdart | ^talk 12:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - I'd completely forgotten about the 1RR, and when reminded of it, [it out on the talk page]. O Fenian then went ahead and reverted anyway, ignoring my suggestion of getting a third opinion. Thanks for your participation in the talk page. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh on all counts. Bastun, O Fenian: WP:3. Looking deeper into it, but this is getting irritating.--Tznkai (talk) 15:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm quickly running out of good ideas here, so this is what I'm proposing: Bastun and O Fenian are topic banned from anything related to Ireland until they've made fifty edits doing something else.--Tznkai (talk) 23:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, after I've spent 10 mins on 'recent changes patrol', I'm good to go... (By the way, is that Ireland or Ireland? ;-) ) Blowdart has acted as WP:3, his suggestions seem to work for both O Fenian and me. Think this can be closed. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Momento at Prem Rawat (continued)

Less than a week ago Momento (talk · contribs) was warned on this page "that, if he continues to edit-war in order to resolve [...] issues [regarding the Prem Rawat article], instead of requesting appropriate intervention, he may also be sanctioned" [84]

Momento however continues to apply reverts to the Prem Rawat article, citing only two from the last 24 h. (reverting out "Balyogeshwar" despite a standing consensus to keep it in which was agreed several months ago): 10:44, 26 January 2009 - 20:15, 26 January 2009

Momento was warned recently not to edit war on this article (20 January 2009); Momento is well aware the article is under article probation; Momento has been blocked for edit-warring on the Prem Rawat page in the past, which was 72 hours on last instance (see block log), and despite a recent formal warning on this AE page, continues the same behaviour: I don't think a block of this user should be less than his previous blocks for edit-warring on the page of his preferred guru.

As before, the relevant ArbCom remedies are Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat#Remedies from the Prem Rawat RfAr page --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't an edit war! Cla68 correctly suggested that the lead should start with who Rawat IS not WAS. This suggestion has been accepted by all and all the edits made are good faith attempts to reflect the change to the present tense. There has been and continues to be discussion on the talk page about it. Seven editors have edited the Prem Rawat article in the last 24 hours. Pongostick has made 4, I have made 3, Cla68 has made 3, WillBeBack has made 3, Rumiton has made 3, Jayen and Surdas 2 and Sylvie and now Wowest 1. All editors have added and removed material since Cla68's suggestion. I have made only 4 edits since the Arbcom warning and have already noted in the discussion that we may need Arbcom intervention. Please don't reward FrancisSchonken's targeting of me, he is trying to use you to get at me. He says about me "my preferred guru", be very careful about supporting an editor whose actions are solely based on religious intolerance.Momento (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, Cla68 said nothing about names, so citing him is irrelevant. There has already been extensive discussion of this matter going back at least four years. Will Beback talk 21:35, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're right will, he didn't say anything, he just added a new title "Lord of the Universe" to this article without discussion. You and Francis allowed it to continue but my removing it is an edit war. And, according to Cla68's suggestion to put the first sentence into the present tense, which everyone agrees with, means that "Balyogeshwar" must go because he isn't known by that name. It is a title and it hasn't been used for more than 20 years.Momento (talk) 21:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And, according to Cla68's suggestion to put the first sentence into the present tense, which everyone agrees with, means that "Balyogeshwar" must go because he isn't known by that name.

Everyone does not agree that we should omit the subject's life story from his biography. I think athat Cla68 just meant we should also include his current job title, not that we should delete his former titles and names. Regardless, there is no conensus for this change to text that has been stable for months, and which has been discussed for years. You've been warned about edit warring just this week, so ther's no excuse for this. Will Beback talk 21:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since Cla68 changed the grammar tense of the first sentence from the past tense to the present tense there have been more than 20 edits that have maintained his present tense suggestion. No one is suggesting we "should"omit the subject's life story from his biography" but since the source for "Balyogeshwar" is a book written over 30 years ago, it cannot be said Rawat "is known as". And since the change in the article was started by Cla68 and I have made the same number of edits as you, how can I be edit warring and you're not. At least this gives Arbcom another chance to see how you and Francis single me out for special treatment.Momento (talk) 22:08, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "...since the source for "Balyogeshwar" is a book written over 30 years ago...": that's not the most recent source used: either you neither really look at talk page discussions nor references, either you're wilfully disturbing processes. Neither is an excuse for edit-warring. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The source for Balyogeshwar is "The world of gurus" by Vishal Mangalwadi. According to the author's website it was written in 1977.Momento (talk) 22:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, more recent sources are e.g. mentioned in talk page discussions, see the one I linked to above. Still, no reason to embark on the next edit-war as you did. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:49, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mangalwadi refers to DLM in the same paragraph so that dates it as the 70s. And the Srinivas Aravamudan book gives it as an alias of Guru Maharaj Ji which dates it to the 70s also. So neither support the claim that Prem Rawat IS known as "Balyogeshar" which is what the lead sentence incorrectly said. I was right to remove it. And it is not an "alternative name" as Will suggested, it is a Hindi title given to Rawat by others and discarded by him when he eliminated Indian/Hindu aspects of his teachings.Momento (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, none of what you offer here is a valid excuse for edit warring. There was no BLP violation. If you wanted to make a change to sourced, stable text that had been discussed at great length, then you should have discussed it first on the talk page rather than started an edit war. Will Beback talk 23:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Say "edit warring" as often as you like WillBeBack but two edits isn't an "edit war". Pongostick, Cla68, Rumiton and your good self have made as many edits as I have, why is it that I'm the only one edit warring.Momento (talk) 03:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the problems with this article, it would appear that some editors are logging out to make reverts.[85][86] (and from the other day [87]). Will Beback talk 21:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, there's no religious intolerance. Objecting to accusations you can't substantiate, and which (like all personal attacks and most strongly the frivolous ones) reflect back unfavourably on the accuser. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an outside observer, I think those three edits I made recently may be the first I've ever done to the Rawat article, I'd say that a checkuser needs to be run on those IP reverts and that an uninvolved admin check the diffs to see if Momento did violate the article probation and the revert warning he was given recently. If so, I would suggest a longer than 72-hour block to follow the principle of escalating corrective actions. Cla68 (talk) 23:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The spirit of last week's warning appears to have been to encourage Momento to use regular processes rather than engage in edit warring. Although I do not edit Prem Rawat or related articles, my role in Jossi's retirement may lead some editors to doubt my neutrality here, so seconding Cla68's request for neutral review. Momento may be stretching the BLP policy a bit farther than it actually extends: the policy does not authorize unlimited reverts to neutral information. Talk discussion and content RFC are preferable, especially so soon after a formal warning. Durova^Charge! 23:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We don't need any more evidence or another neutral review Durova, anyone can see that I made three edits in 24 hours as did Cla68, WilBeBack, Rumiton and Pongostick. What separates me from these other editors (and the 6 other people who have edited this article in the last 24 hours) is that FrancisSchonken and WillBeBack's claim that my last two edits equal an "edit war". Since one was to remove an undiscussed and inappropriate addition to the article, the only question is why are you and the other admins allowing this witch hunt to go on? No one complains that Cla68 was naughty to add material without discussion, no one complains that Cla68, Rumiton, Pongostic and WillBeBack made 3 edits in 24 hours, no one even cares that the first sentence now has a redundant comma! No, hold on a minute, I care. And I'm going to remove it [88]. Is this what you mean by "unlimited reverts"?Momento (talk) 03:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This looks just like a day's Rawat editing to me, with Momento on 2RR [89][90] Will on 2RR [91][92], Pongostick on 4RR [93][94][95][96], Surdas on 3RR [97][98][99], and two IP reverts. By all means run checkusers. Now of course you might ask, why is it that Momento is dragged here with his two reverts, rather than Surdas or Pongostick, or indeed Will? And if anyone still cares about writing an encyclopedia rather than counting reverts and hoping for the AE post that will finally get rid of the hated opponent: It's nonsense to say "Prem Rawat, also known as Balyogeshwar". Bal is Hindi for "baby" or "kid". It's a name Rawat had when he was six, and it meant "the kid master yogi". We've discussed that a number of times before as well. It's like saying "Bill Clinton, also known as Little Billy." If there's still people who don't get it, and insist on reverting that back in, it's not for lack of being told. I am tempted to say lock the article or topic-ban the lot of them for a week. Jayen466 02:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jayen: Bravo! Olé! I hope more people like you will come to Wikipedia, and fewer of a differente kind.--Pedrero (talk) 04:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reason that Momento bears blame in this matter is that he instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable. And then he proceeded to edit war over it, depsite having been specifically warned not to do so less than a week ago. While the inclusion or exclusion of this or that name may have merit, it should be discussed rather than just done unilaterally, especially when the issue has been discussed for over four years, including just last year at length including Momento. His behavior qualifies as tendentious editing. User:Pongostick has been warned repeatedly not to edit war, and informed of the topic probation. He has no excuse either. Will Beback talk 04:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WillBeBack's comment above is a complete lie. Cla68 is the editor who "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable" when he changed the lead that had been stable for months to put it in the present tense.[100]. By changing the tense, which I agree with, he wrote that PR is a guru, which is not true. The article and every scholar on the subject says PR dropped the tiitle "Guru" and almost divine status in the early 80s. Rumiton reverted the error [101]. Cla68 then made an edit to say PR is a "spiritual leader", which is not great [102]. And then added "Lord of the Universe" as a current name for PR, without discussion, which is completely untrue [103]. I then made my first edit of the day, removing the "LOTU" and "Balyogeshwar" titles that are not current names.[104]. Then followed a dozen edits whilst people tried to get the best wording for who PR is - "philanthropist, teacher, teacher of meditation" etc but not "guru, LOTU or Balyogeshwar". During this WillBeBack reverted once, claiming to "restore names that have been discussed extensively", which is a complete lie since "LOTU" was a new addition less than 24 hours old, had not be discussed extensively and is not a title by which Rawat is currently known. [105] The "LOTU" inclusion was removed by Rumiton [106]. And then reinserted by a new editor Surdas. [107]. Removed by Pongostick [108] and then reverted by WillBeBack to include "LOTU" with the dishonest edit summary "undiscussed deletion of sourced, discussed material" since the "LOTU" title was not discussed. Pongstick reverted, Surdas reinserted "LOTU". [109] I made my second edit of the day and removed "LOTU" [110] and then another edit to remove "Balyogeshwar" because the sentence, now in the present tense for the last dozen edits, required that an old title from the 70s wasn't appropriate for the present.[111] My editing in the 24 hour was based purely on Cla68's correct suggestion that the first sentence of the lead should state who PR is not what PR was. That suggestion has been accepted and still holds 20 edits later, the "LOTU" title has also been dropped and "Balyogeshwar" remains even though the source for it was written more than 30 years ago. It is a complete disgrace that admins who have read this complaint and followed the diffs haven't thrown this "complaint" back to FraqncisSchonken with a warning to stop harassing me. [WP:HA] WillBeBack should also be warned, his gross distortion of the facts above to try to paint me as the person who "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable", demand it.Momento (talk) 22:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't approve of Jayen's querulous contribution above (in view of Pedrero's reaction I'd even qualify it as somewhat "populist").

Only a few days ago Jayen attempted to infuse more and stricter WP:NOR material into the WP:NPOV policy. And then here the crux of the reasoning s/he presents is an elementary WP:NOR transgression. What should be the crux of our thinking on the content of this matter is what the sources say. It is a fact that readily available sources (reprints as well as new publications, e.g. from US university presses) refer to the subject of the Prem Rawat article as "Balyogeshwar". So, on the content side of the matter: no, Jayen's comment is missing the point, defends an "Original Research" stance and can only be qualified as tendentious editing.

And then Jayen's defense of the behaviour: where was, e.g., Will notified that he would have been behaving improperly on the Prem Rawat article? Where was he reprimanded recently for reverting on this WP:AE page? Will wasn't, that's clear. So, no, there's not a sound reasoning to put Will and Momento on the same line: it's just "quid pro quo" mud-slinging, bad style because Jayen provides a gloss of equality to what is profoundly unequal. So also on the behaviour side of the matter reprehensible tendentious editing by Jayen.

I think it's about time to take the cloak of protection offered to *edit-warring* editors like Momento by *ambiguous* editors like Jayen away, then pretty soon imho editing articles like Rawat's will become a harmonious enterprise. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Knowing another language is not original research, neither is having a rudimentary understanding of the culture one is purporting to write an encyclopedic article about. Here is Balganesh (baby Ganesh), here is Balhanuman (baby Hanuman), here is Balkrishna (baby Krishna). Jayen466 14:52, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think you have made your point rather well, Jayen. What do other editors think? Rumiton (talk) 15:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What does any of that have to do with the edit warring that is being complained about here? These arguments should be made to explain edits and seek consensus beforehand, not to justify an edit war after the fact. (Even so, Jayen's links don't seem to touch on what Prem Rawat has been called during his life, the topic of this dispute. Whatever point Jayen is making belongs on the article talk page, not on WP:AE.) Will Beback talk 16:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- - Will, as far as I can see, Momento's first removal of the Balyogeshwar name at 10:44, 26 January 2009, as diffed in the filing above, was not even a revert. The name had been there for months. Its removal became necessary because of Cla68's sensible edit changing the first sentence to present tense: [112]. The old wording, "Prem Rawat, also known as Balyogeshwar ... became guru at age 8 ..." had long enjoyed broad acceptance by all, including Momento, because Rawat was called Balyogeshwar at the time he became guru. Once Cla68 changed it to present tense, "Prem Rawat, also known as Balyogeshwar ... is a spiritual leader based in California" [113], the childhood name no longer fitted. Rawat is no longer known as Balyogeshwar, and has not been for decades. That's what Momento fixed. So now Momento's two reverts, inasmuch as they relate to the Balyogeshwar name, are actually one. That gives you one more revert than Momento [114][115] – and they are proper reverts, making the same change twice and undoing, rather than building on what another editor had just done – and you are just as aware of the strictures against edit-warring, just having reminded Momento of them. ;-) So let's remember WP:KETTLE and stop this. I suggest we return the article to strict 1RR rules; I seem to remember that worked quite well last year (once we had defined exactly what it meant). Jayen466 19:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I don't recall anyone discussing these deletions before making them. The fact that an uninvolved editor drops in and changes the tense of a single word doesn't mean that we should re-write stable, relevant, sourced text to accomodate his change. The names could have just as easily be kept by splitting the sentence or other minor changes. For reasons that I don't entirely understand, Momento and other pro-Rawat editors have objected to including his alternate names, and it's pretty clear that Cla68's minor change was used as a pretext for deleting them. This issue does not involve any violation of BLP or other extenuating circumstances to excuse the edit warring that did occur. Momento knew he was making a controversial edit. He didn't discuss it and then he restored it, still without discussion. On a topic like this, already under probation, editors should seek consensus or at least give a thorough discussion before upsetting the apple cart. Constantly re-fighting settled issues is tendentious editing. 1RR can't work in an environment where brand new accounts and IPs appear out of nowhere to further edit wars started by established editors. I don't see any admins stepping up to handle the violations by Pongostick, so perhaps this case needs to go back to the ArbCom to get enforceable remedies. Will Beback talk 19:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Taking a more charitable view, one could also concede that the appellation "boy yogi" (which is what balyogeshwar means) is not very appropriate for someone in his fifties, especially when the text has been changed to imply that that is what he is called today. As for your point about 1RR, I'd suggest it is still worth giving a try. At any rate, my impression is that new editors are popping up on both sides of the debate, and 1RR would force people to talk and work out agreements. (Here's hoping!) Jayen466 19:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        No, I don't concede that we should delete things from biographies just because they happened decades ago. The text that implied he was being called that today should have been changed rather than deleting the relevant, sourced text. If a random editor visited Jimmy Carter and changed "is a former U.S. President and peacemaker" to "is a U.S. President and peacemaker" then we wouldn't delete the presidency even though it was almost 30 years ago. We'd adjust the grammar instead. As for 1RR, it didn't work before so I don't know why you think it would work now. 3RR isn't even being enforced, despite the ArbCom probation. What would work is if editors treat this as a controversial topic and use the talk page to seek consensus before making significant changes. Do you object to that? Will Beback talk 20:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        [116] Hope that will do it for anyone. If not, then let's have any further discussion on where and how to mention the Balyogeshwar name on Talk:Prem_Rawat, please. Jayen466 00:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Anyone who wants to make any significant change to the article, especially to material that has already been discussed, should first discuss it on the article talk page. There's no excuse for starting these edit conflicts. Will Beback talk 01:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        
        PS: Jayen, thanks for drafting that version, which is close to the status quo ante. It's fine with me. Will Beback talk 08:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Can't agree with Jayen's edits shown in the diff above ([117]). It is just continuing the edit-warring. Sorry, Will, can't agree with you, these edits are not "fine with me", neither are they close enough to the status quo ante to be even near to acceptable. They are just Jayen showing off disruptive behaviour. The talk page discussion I linked to above (TWICE already, and here for the third time shows external links, AS SAID ABOVE to "readily available sources, including new publications, from US university presses", in other words scholarly publications, from English-speaking countries, published when Rawat was about 40 years old, *still* preferring Balyogeshwar as name for the subject. It shows Jayen (as well as Will, as other participants for that matter) ignoring what others have to say, and certainly not finding any time to look at a previous discussion or external links contained therein before feverishly proposing and implementing new solutions.
        Really, this has to stop. I reiterate: Jayen has been disruptive while (1) being tendentious and incorrect on the level of content preferring a quick original research over careful perusal of sources, and (2) tendentious and showing favouritism on the level of behaviour. His way of ignoring other peoples comments and links is taking near proverbial dimensions. (as he recently did in the WT:NPOV discussion finally admitting "Having now read [XYZ] – which I failed to do at the time). Seems like for Jayen it's WP:TLDR too often, typing faster than reading previous discussion and external references. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Francis, this revert, while you clearly believe it to be right, is against the consensus expressed here and on the talk page, which is that this version is not good. Concerning the question whether Balyogeshwar is a honorific, see [118]. It is from the Encyclopaedia Indica, it is written by an Indian, and it states that he received the appellations "Balyogeshwar" and "Guru Maharaj Ji" when he took over as guru from his father. It was not a name given at birth, and was not bestowed for any other reason. As for recent books using Balyogeshwar, your 1992 source is a revised version of a book first published in 1977, as has been pointed out before. It uses seventies' language throughout. I'd also like to add that American scholars are not the most reliable sources when it comes to telling apart Indian names and honorifics. David G. Bromley and Anson Shupe, bless them, writing in 1981 (Strange Gods, pp. 44–45), apparently thought that "Ji" was Rawat's surname, and wrote things like, "Since Ji had earler ...", "At one point, Ji was ..." "Ji" means "Mr." or "Dear Sir". So much for the reliability of world-class US scholars on Indian names. Jayen466 12:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        
        Jayen, you provide diffs and external links: none bear out the claims you make, unless with an unacceptable dose of OR. Here's the catch: for everyone else you want to make the NOR policy more stringent, and you often enough point out that for BLPs core content policies (...like WP:NOR) need to be interpreted stricter than on average... That's what I call your profound ambiguity.
        This is an ownership thing maybe: using all available means to have "pro" people take ownership of Rawat-related articles (comparable to what is being discussed re. Scientology articles), and then incoherences in interpretation and pushing of policy don't matter.
        Like I've said before: my recommendation to you is that you continue to engage yourself in the Scientology RfAr (you're deeply involved anyway) until it has come to its conclusion, before taking unilateral action in the sense of pushing policy change or change encyclopedia content contrary to current policy. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:14, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        It is correct that I am arguing in the direction of ownership by "pro" people in the case of Scientology articles, because they have long been firmly in the hands of passionate and committed opponents of Scientology, to the detriment of article quality and sourcing standards (read the evidence page if you haven't done so already). I am also resisting attempts to eliminate pro people from the Rawat articles like this present effort, based on ganging up on them and hauling them to AE when they sneeze, while other people do the same and worse and no one comments. This is not quite the same as arguing for ownership by pro people.
        As for your other points, I am not aware of trying to "change content contrary to current policy." If you have a problem with a specific edit of mine, kindly let me know on my talk page, or the article talk page. Lastly, the Scientology RfAR has been quiet for most of this month, and it may take months to come to any conclusion. I believe I am quite within my rights to voice my opinion on policy talk pages in the meantime. If there is a policy or guideline that says that people involved in arbitration should not initiate or participate in any such discussions, then please point me to it; if it is only your opinion that I should not comment, then it is noted as such. Cheers, Jayen466 13:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        
        If all Momento did was 1 revert, then I'm not sure if it's serious enough for a block, in spite of the previous warning. I did, in fact, add Lord of the Universe to the lead without discussion (it was based on the Register article which stated that Rawat is also known by this title), so I don't think it necessarily improper for someone to remove that and ask for further discussion first. Cla68 (talk) 02:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        No offense, but I think you're right that you "started" this, so to speak, even if with the best of intentions. Technically, the article probation applies to all editors but new or occasional editors can't be expected to know that. This topic has so many contentious issues that it is like a minefield. As my high school physics teacher liked to say in similar circumstances, "your punishment is 50 lashes with a wet noodle." Just don't do it again. ;) Will Beback talk 08:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Well, after searching the web, it doesn't look like there's too much out there in reliable sources to use to improve the article, so we're left with making sure what's there is as encyclopedic as possible. The omission of what Rawat currently is from the intro was glaring, and hopefully now has been fixed. It seems that what the current editors of that and related articles, besides yourself, are working on right now is trying to message the wording as much as possible to their POV. In my opinion, all of this fighting over articles that probably contain as much information as is already available until something else gets published in the future is a waste of time for everyone involved. I would suggest topic banning all of the clearly pro and anti- Rawat editors from all these articles and calling it a day. Cla68 (talk) 23:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No offense!!!! This is hilarious. It's taken you days to figure out what every conscious editor knew from the start. I spelled it out for you 30 edits ago.[119] "Wet noodle"? You should resign as an admin and FrancisSchonken should be topic banned 6 months.Momento (talk) 09:55, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi sent me an odd email last night (quite surprising) in which he both admitted that I was the proximate cause of his retirement, and acted offended. So setting the record straight. On 22 January at AE I defended Jossi against an unsubstantiated attack on his character,[120] then did likewise when someone posted a corresponding attack from the other side.[121] In the current dispute, going to mediation or a content request for comment would be a very good idea on all sides. Yet one specific party was warned for edit warring very recently. So particular attention there may be appropriate. Any Wikipedian whose neutrality may be challenged ought to disclose it proactively when weighing in at AE. Walking the walk there, and anyone who may have been contacted via backchannels about it is welcome to get both sides of the story. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Durova^Charge! 17:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not Jossi was offended by your evidence section doesn't really matter to us here. What matters is if Jossi has any explanation or defense for his violations of the community's trust and standards which are detailed in your evidence. Cla68 (talk) 02:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we should have a look through Durova's evidence to see how well it stands up to scrutiny. I have not clicked through all the diffs. But edits like this [122], given as examples of Jossi's wrongdoings, or Durova's entire argumentation in this section, don't convince me at all. Jayen466 14:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When Jossi was a Wikipedian he faced several investigations spurred by his self-proclaimed conflict of interest. He was examined by Wikipedia's best and brightest and was cleared of all charges, in fact commended for his restraint. It seems now he is gone his history will be written by a self-serving reporter at the Register. It is a sad and pitiful situation. Rumiton (talk) 14:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We're not here to discuss the current ArbCom case in which Jossi is a party. This noticeboard is for discussing enforcement of remedies in closed ArbCom cases. The applicable one here is Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat. Will Beback talk 21:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent>I believe that the editors of the Prem Rawat articles are in need of formal mediation. We had some informal mediation last year, but that fell apart after our mediator had his own problems and left Wikipedia. When formal mediation was subsequently explored, I was against assigning a designated representative for each side (for various reasons), but now I'm willing to consider representatives if that's what a mediator requires. I have been asking editors to refrain from making major edits on these article(s) main spaces for some time now, until they have proposed their changes and gained consensus on the talk page(s). Formal mediation will certainly make the process more tedious and slow everything down, but this article(s) always takes a lot of time and seems to be in a perpetual status of change, despite already-agreed-upon matters having been stable in the article(s). The practice by some editors of changing long-standing, stable edits is getting real old, real fast, given we are going on five years editing these Rawat articles. There are 39 archives on the Prem Rawat talk page alone! I'm sort of throwing out a desperate plea for help here to the community for some genuine assistance to rein things in. I also think that a tag needs to be placed on all Rawat articles warning new editors to discuss changes on the talk pages before editing the articles. Food for thought. Thanks. Sylviecyn (talk) 14:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I recall (correct me if I err) we were heading towards mediation but Francis didn't think it was a good idea. Rumiton (talk) 15:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are erring. Further, please comment on edits, not on editors, that was near (too near) to a personal attack. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe Rumiton is erring, nor do I think he has attacked you. [123] Jayen466 12:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Still, Rumiton is erring, and the contrary is not borne out by the diff provided by Jayen. And I'm getting tired of these lame defences of near SPAs by profoundly ambiguous editors. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sylviecyn is right that editors should discuss significant edits before making them. However I don't agree that mediation is needed at this time, because it is designed to settle specific content disputes and there aren't any major ones right now. However there is clearly are problems with the interactions of editors on the topic and the ArbCom's remedies haven't worked out well in solving them. Will Beback talk 21:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only problem is some Admins are reluctant to apply the remedies. Last week Nik Wright2 made a dishonest complaint against me and FrancisSchonken and WillBeBack vigorously supported it. The remedy applied by Sandstein and backed by PhilNight was that Nik Wright2 was topic banned for one month and I was warned not to edit war to solve similar problems. [124] A few days passed and FrancisSchonken made this complaint about me and WillBeBack has supported it to the extent of falsifying the editing. He has said I deserve "blame in this matter in that Momento instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable. And then Momento proceeded to edit war over it". [125] In fact, it was Cla68 who "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable".[126][127] And Cla68 belatedly confirms it here. [128] And it was WillBeBack who indulged in the "edit war". [129][130] WillBeBack's response to Cla68's belated admission is that he should be "lashed with a wet noodle". "Wet noodle" for Cla68 for "instigating changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable"? An Arbcom complaint for me for, and I'll let Cla68 say it, "If all Momento did was 1 revert, then I'm not sure if it's serious enough for a block, in spite of the previous warning". You're right Cla68, the revert isn't serious. What is very serious is the long term and persistent harassment of another editor (me) by FrancisSchonken [131] and WillBeBack. FrancisSchonken needs to be topic banned from Prem Rawat and associated articles for six months (he made this absurd complaint after Nik Wright received a one month ban for the same behaviour). In May last year after another FrancisSchonken/ WillBeBack harassment I wrote "I don't deserve to be blocked, I deserve to be protected". [132] WillBeBack needs to be stripped of his admin status. If a Wikipedia admin is allowed to indulge in this sort of behaviour despite previous complaints and appeals for help, heaven help Wikipedia.Momento (talk) 23:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, if I've been found by the community to have abused the admin tools then I'd willingly resign as admin. However I don't see any evidence of that, nor any evidence of other misbehavior on my part. Please stop making these unsupported charges. Will Beback talk 23:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't about "admin tools". This is about you deliberating supplying false evidence to admins about the grounds for this complaint. You claimed I deserve "blame in this matter in that Momento instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable. And then Momento proceeded to edit war over it". Is your claim true or not?Momento (talk) 23:09, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that you deleted the sourced name "Balyogeshwar" and inserted the unsourced occupation "philanthropist" without ever discussing those changes.[133] It is also true that you deleted the name a second time after it was restored. Will Beback talk 23:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer the question "Yes" or "No". Up above you say to Cla68 "No offense, but I think you're right that you "started" this". Is that not true? Of course it is because Cla68 preceded my edit of the lead with three of his own. It was Cla68 who "instigated" the changes to the lead which had "already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable" when, with his first edit, he added "is" and removed "was", added the unsourced "based in California, United States", removed "people" and added "followers" and added "reportedly"; all without discussion. Is that not true? And when these initial, undiscussed changes to the previously stable lead were reverted by Rumiton to the "discussed, sourced and stable version", Cla68 then added the unsourced "spiritual leader", reinserted "based in California, United States", changed "became" to "reportedly became". And then with his third edit added the undiscussed and chronologically flawed "Lord of the Universe". All of which preceded my first edit! So let me ask you again - am I the person who "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable" as you claimed? Or is Cla68 the one who "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable"? A simple - "It was Momento" or "it was Cla68" will be sufficient. Momento (talk) 00:41, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, I did source the "spiritual leader" name to the Register article and linked to it in my comment on the talk page to justify why I was making the addition. The fact that the Register used that title to refer to Rawat appeared to show that that was the most neutral, best descriptive term to use to describe what Rawat is. Momento, please tell the truth, or it may be hard to assume good faith with your participation here. Cla68 (talk) 01:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's where you added it. [134] Here's what WP:CS says "Sources should be cited when adding material to the biography of a living person". Do you see a cite for your addition? I don't. And here's what WP:RS says "Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material immediately if it is about a living person, and do not move it to the talk page".Momento (talk) 20:46, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) When AE threads grow as long as this one is, it's unlikely that anyone will intervene. So offering as evenhanded a solution as possible here: The Register is not generally recognized as a reliable source at Wikipedia. So it would be better to remove reference to it and any information that hinges upon that source. Recommend shaking hands and agreeing to mediation/content RFC as an alternative to edit warring. That goes for all sides, however, in light of the recent formal warning if Momento resumes edit warring I would certify a conduct RFC on Momento. Per reasoning above, parity arguments do not apply here. On one side, you have a questionable reliability source disallowed. On the other, you have an offer to certify user conduct RFC. That looks appropriate in both cases. So here's hoping everyone is reasonable enough to mark this thread resolved and leave it at that. Durova^Charge! 01:32, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I still have several problems.

The Register is not just a questionable reliability source, it is a source whose aims are directly opposed to those of Wikipedia. It is an act of gross disrespect by one editor to have included a quote from it in the first place, and of disingenuous partisanship on the part of others when they did not immediately revert it.
Momento has been treated in a most discriminatory way here, and so far no one has acknowledged it. He did not edit war initially, as removing a defamatory link from a BLP is to be recommended. He was chastised for doing it himself, rather than asking for wider community assistance. I believe he accepts that.
We tried for mediation last August, but contrary to Francis Schonken's recollection above, the attempt was torpedoed by him. See [135]

This is what the mediator said in closing:

== Case closed ==

Further to Francis' withdrawal from this Mediation, I am afraid the only course of action now available is to close. I have held off this for as long as possible, in the hope that a reconsideration would arise; evidently, this is not forthcoming.

Mediation requires the agreement of all parties at all times for it to take place; that one party (and a major one in this dispute, to boot) has stricken his previous agreement, and superseded it with a disagreement, unfortunately falls short of the requirements we hold on the Committee.

To that end, I am closing this case. The ball is now firmly in the parties' court: as a group, formal Mediation has not worked (due to a lack of agreement). The decision is now in your hands as to where to proceed from here on in. Returning to the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal may be an appropriate course of action.

Good luck in your future attempts at discussing your differences.

Regards, Anthøny 11:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This long and painful history needs to be acknowledged. Rumiton (talk) 13:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC) Momento has been painted as the bad guy, and the truth is way more complex. Rumiton (talk) 13:08, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I endorse Rumiton's summary. Jayen466 13:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How times have changed, when someone supposes a need to inform me of the Register's shortcomings. Thank you for adding levity to a dull morning. AGK referred the dispute to Medcab. You can go there, or content RFC. Or--ideally--stop trying to cast a content dispute in polarizing/dramatic terms such as 'bad guy' and get on with the work of building a collaborative encyclopedia. Multiple AE threads within one month are not a good thing; other forms of dispute resolution may open without your endorsement if this pattern continues. Durova^Charge! 17:57, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Resolved", Durova? "Be reasonable enough to leave it at that"! Be under no illusions folks, this issue isn't resolved until FrancisSchonken is appropriately punished for his fraudulent complaint. And WillBeBack punished for the lies he's told in support of it. It's time admins thought about what is good for Wikipedia instead of hiding their heads in the sand.Momento (talk) 21:08, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia remedies are preventitive, not punitive. Durova^Charge! 21:31, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently not, since past remedies have done nothing to prevent this second attack.Momento (talk) 21:43, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one has been prepared to make a decision I've called on "Admins prepared to make difficult blocks" for help.Momento (talk) 10:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, firstly, I'm sorry there hasn't been much response from uninvolved admins. There is currently a request for comment on ArbCom Enforcement, which makes reference to this failing. I've read this discussion, and looked at the article history, and to be perfectly honest, I can't see anything block worthy. Yes, the assertion that you were edit warring is, at best, an exaggeration. However, beyond indicating that Francis's should avoid making spurious reports in future, I don't believe that I could justify any further action. PhilKnight (talk) 17:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, at "best" it is an "exaggeration". But this isn't an at "best" situation for FrancisSchonken. He is fresh out of another spurious claim by NickWight2, so he is completely familiar with the need for accuracy in these matters. And yet to make his complaint Francis had to ignore that Pongostick made 4 edits, WillBeBack made 3, Rumiton made 2, Jayen and Surdas 2 and Sylvie 1 all between my first edit and my second. It's harassment Phil, pure and simple. And the fact that the last five edits of the Rawat article show FrancisSchonken making one edit and reverting to it twice in 24 hours is ample evidence to conclude that FrancisSchonken still believes there is one rule for him and a hundred for me. [136] The latest example in an ongoing campaign made possible by WillBeBack's vigorous support.[137] WillBeBack constantly shouting "edit war" and even claiming that I "bear blame in this matter" because I "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable", is a complete lie that he has not retracted or apologized for despite several explicit requests from me to address the issue. If you care to apply the rules/precedence then FrancisSchonken must be topic blocked for a period greater than NikWright2 was for a making a spurious complaint to this forum. If you're OK with admins harassing other editors and lying in Arbcom Enforcements then WillBeBack is just doing his job. But if harassing other editors and lying in Arbcom Enforcements is not part of the Admin brief then WillBeBack must be formally warned to cease and desist and under go a period of probation.Momento (talk) 00:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Any other comments?Momento (talk) 11:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giano

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Let's archive this now, resolved (sort of). Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Under the terms of the sanction imposed against me, I want this baiting editor dealt with [138]. Giano (talk) 08:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I note the editor in question has received a polite warning from an Arb. However, this stirring and baiting aditor is attempting to make trouble elsewhere [139]. I think a short block is now called for - or is all this talk dealing with baiting editors rather hollow - shall I deal with myself, as I normally have to do? Giano (talk) 11:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, I am dealing with the matter myself [140] Silk Tork is a liar. Giano (talk) 11:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Arbs for your usual prompt attention in dealing with baiting and troling of me. No mater, I have dealt with it myself [141]. Giano (talk) 15:41, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For future reference Giano, new requests go at the top so those of us who monitor the page will see it, admins are the primary repsondants to Arbitration Enforcement requests, there are no provisions in your sanction for dealing with baiting (actions like that done under admin/community discretion usually falls within AN/ANI jurisdiction), and your civility sanction is hands off to admins.--Tznkai (talk) 15:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not to worry, I expect no one checks this page very often, and I certainly did not take the grand words spoken about dealing with baiting on ANI the other day seriously. Fortunately, I am well able to deal with problems myself, the Arbcom are not a body I need, I just thought it would be interesting to see if the new lot were any better than the last - it appears not to look very hopeful so far - does it? Giano (talk) 16:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is a conversation better perused on a user talk page if you infact wish to persue it at all.--Tznkai (talk) 16:37, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, why do new requests go at the top of this page when they go at the bottom of every other page I've ever seen on this website? AN, AN/I, refdesk, talk pages, everything always goes at the bottom of the page. Tex (talk) 19:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion discussions are at the top, which probably says something about the regulars here

--NE2 20:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly because thats where the page instructions ask you to put new complaints, and thats where people learn to look for them. In addition, resolve discussions get moved out of the way on to bottom before being archived.--Tznkai (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Depends what instructions you follow. If you read the top of the page, you see the "new section" tab, which would presumably give you a new section. --NE2 20:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well it's all rather silly, as I have resolved it now. Interesting though how the clerks are normally very keen and eager to shunt my edits quickly to the correct place. Giano (talk) 21:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giano, I'm one arbitrator that doesn't follow this page, and I suspect several other arbitrators don't either. If you want the attention of an arbitrator, you probably want another page. In fact, the best way to attract an arbitrator is probably to e-mail the arbitration mailing list. Carcharoth (talk) 04:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is that the same list that David Gerard controls? Giano (talk) 08:20, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requesting formal notices for Israel-Palestine edit warring

Could a neutral administrator please take a look and please give a {{subst:Palestine-Israel enforcement}} notice if warranted to Historicist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and another editor, who has just jumped into the fray, Mhym (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)? I have never been on this board before so please bear with me here....

There has been edit warring, (claimed) BLP violations, AGF and NPA violations, etc., on at least five articles related to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, heating up in the past five days. Discussion on the talk page to WP:BLP/N and WP:AN/I have failed to resolve anything, one of the five pages is now indefinitely protected, and the edit war continues sporadically on another. For reference here is the edit war history of Historicist, who is the most active editor, copied from AN/I.

Rashid Khalidi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Edit warring here:[142][143][144][145] leading to indefinite article protection.[146]
Henry Siegman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Edit warring here:[147][148][149][150][151]
Moshe Ya'alon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Edit warring here:[152][153][154][155]
Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). A single edit by Historicist[156] in what looks like an edit war by multiple parties but it is hard to tease out.
Arnaud de Borchgrave (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). One edit, no edit warring.[157]
Alleged Ya'alon quotation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Original location of this material, created by Historicist[158] then turned into a redirect per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alleged Ya'alon quotation

The civility / behavior problems can be found on the article talk pages, for example, accusing long-term productive editors who object to BLP violations as only being on Wikipedia to promote "anti-Israel propaganda".

As an involved party I'm the first one to accept that I'm on notice of arbitration enforcement, and should not edit war or commit incivilities either. It is a little one-sided, though, because I'm trying to patrol articles, maintain sanity and stability, avoid BLP vios, and watch out for editing problems.Wikidemon (talk) 18:30, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Wikidemon, the biographical articles probably aren't in the scope of the WP:ARBPIA discretionary sanctions. PhilKnight (talk) 18:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How so? These are articles about scholars, military figures, politicians, and partisans whose life work is the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the edit warring and the war of words (both off Wiki and in the edit warring and incivility over questionable BLP material) relate to these people calling each other liars, propagandists, academic frauds, murderers, etc. over the Israel / Gaza flare-up. The subject of the arbitration decision per [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles and WP:General Sanctions and general sanctions is "The entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted." The committee was deliberate in applying its decision to the broad subject matter, not just a specific set of articles. To clean up the articles about the events and nations, without cleaning up the articles about the people, is like bailing out the front half of the boat and leaving water in the back half - it doesn't work. I made this request at the suggestion of User:ChrisO, one of the administrators active in enforcing the arbitration decision, here.[159] So if not here, where? I'll let ChrisO know and maybe get some further guidance. Wikidemon (talk) 18:58, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but just so you know, Chris isn't one of the admins enforcing the arbitration decision. PhilKnight (talk) 19:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have no opinion on whether or not warnings are necessary at this point, but the articles themselves do seem to be within the scope of WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict: "The area of conflict in this case shall be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted." The "broadly interpreted" clause would allow the inclusion of biographies of individuals who are associated with the conflicts, the peace process, Arab/Israeli politicians, or other pro/anti-Israel debates. Another indicator can be seen by the names of the editors who are edit-warring at these articles: In multiple cases, it's the same group of editors who use the other Israel/Palestine articles as battlegrounds, some of which editors have already been placed under other ARBPIA restrictions. So if the dispute is overflowing to other articles, it would seem reasonable that the ARBPIA authorized sanctions would also be appropriate to use in these new articles as well. --El on ka 19:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me - I saw ChrisO's name all over the sanctions log and knew he(?) was an administrator so I made assumptions. I now see he was a sanctioner and a sanctionee as well. The case and the template are a little ambiguous as to whether the template is a "notice" or a "warning". On the community-imposed Obama article probation, which worked pretty well but applied to a fairly narrow range of articles and a somewhat less tendentious subject, we used a template as a neutral notice. That is to say it did not indicate that someone had done something wrong, just establishing for the record that they are on notice of general sanctions. The problem here is the threshold I have to overcome as a non-administrator to get any administrator to pay attention to this. There's been a 3+ month long push by one primary proponent and a few others stopping by of various pieces of disputed material trying to disparage scholars, one Palestinian-American professor in particular who was the subject of anti-Obama political attacks as an alleged "PLO spokesman" during the US election (which is how I came to notice this). That has lead to page protections (at least 3), a number of BLP reports, edit warring involving probably a dozen editors over the period, etc. This mini-meltdown continues, and seems to be beyond BLP/N, AN/I, and the article and editor talk pages to resolve.Wikidemon (talk) 19:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I think a reading of the diffs and Talk:Henry Siegman will show that Historicist was making a valid argument, and that he was actually trying to prevent a Wikipedia entry from libeling Moshe Ya’alon. I think furthermore that his critics on Talk:Henry Siegman were guilty of WP:BITE and dealing with him by confrontation rather than explaining how he could make his reasonable edits under WP policies. Any bad behavior on Historicist's part should be dealt with first by education rather than imposing blocks. I have disagreed with Historicist, and reverted his edits, but I think he's being unfairly accused here. Nbauman (talk) 21:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That cut-and-paste is an utter misreading. We have edit warring BLP violations into multiple articles simultaneously, accompanied by vexatious incivility, over a months-long period, with two blocks, 3+ page protections, multiple AN/I reports, etc. This is not a WP:BITE situation for a new editor's innocent mistake, it is long-term tendentious POV pushing on one of Wikipedia's most heated topics. I'm not making an accusation here, by the way. I'm asking for a notice that Israel-Palestine arbitration enforcement applies to future behavior. We are about to have a second article edit protected now. What is the alternative, that it is okay for this to continue? This is the last stop before a behavior RfC and a clarification or new case before ArbCom. The whole thing would be a lot simpler if a concerned administrator could put their foot down and say to Historicist (and to be fair and level to every editor on the page), no more accusations and edit warring. Wikidemon (talk) 21:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's my feeling that a formal notice of WP:ARBPIA is not necessary at this point. I did, however, put a note on Historicist's talkpage with some advice, which I hope will be helpful. Wikidemon, in terms of getting admin attention, I can sympathize that sometimes it is difficult. Do you ever use IMs? I can frequently be found on AIM and Gtalk, and you're welcome to bounce ideas off of me. You can point me at a developing situation, and I'll give you my honest opinion about whether or not administrator intervention might or might not be helpful or appropriate in that particular case. --El on ka 21:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 314: / Line 314: @@
 :::::Yes, thanks for the perspective Shell.  I think it would be naive to think that there is no censorship or propaganda at Wikipedia, and this seems to me like a clear case in point.  However, I suppose it would have been better for me to say something like "that solution would result in censorship and propaganda" instead of "you are a censor and propagandist".  And Tznkai might try to rephrase stuff like "Your very reasoning shows that it comes from an emotional pro-life knee jerk reaction" (plus try reading Arbcom restrictions before trying to get them enforced).  :-)  Incidentally, I am in favor of legal abortion of embryos on demand, as a means of birth control or for whatever other reason a woman chooses.  But that does not mean I favor pro-choice propaganda and censorship on Wikipedia.  And let me be very very clear: to have an entire article about abortion, with pictures of women and historical artifacts and surgical procedures and instruments, and the like, without even a drawing of what is aborted  in an average abortion ('''''before''''' it is torn apart!), is the worst kind of propagandist whitewashing.  I have no regrets about saying so, and will keep saying so.[[User:Ferrylodge|Ferrylodge]] ([[User talk:Ferrylodge|talk]]) 15:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 :::I endhorse Ferrylodge's opinion.  I was the one who started the picture discussion and it went nowhere, not particularly shocking, but it must be known that the discussion isn't limited to Ferrylodge and he isn't the only one who has complained.  It makes sense to illustrate the process of abortion on an article about abortion.  If someone thinks that's offensive, too bad.  Wikipedia isn't PG rated.  [[Special:Contributions/70.181.150.70|70.181.150.70]] ([[User talk:70.181.150.70|talk]]) 18:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC) - Wikifan12345.  Sorry, computer is acting weird. [[Special:Contributions/70.181.150.70|70.181.150.70]] ([[User talk:70.181.150.70|talk]]) 18:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
+Speaking as an administrator who believes he has neither particularly strong feelings about the subject matter either way, nor prior involvement in editing the article, I can't see anything that would trigger sanctions on that talk page, and am surprised to see what appears to be a good faith content disagreement wind up here. (Just a thought about that dispute: have you considered looking at how other general reference works have chosen to illustrate their article on abortion?) <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span></small> 21:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 == [[User:Tundrabuggy]] and edit warring over images at [[2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict]] ==