Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard

Welcome – report issues regarding biographies of living persons here.
This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input. Do not copy and paste defamatory material here; instead, link to a diff showing the problem. Search this noticeboard & archives Sections older than 7 days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. Additional notes: Edits by the subject of an article may be welcome in some cases. For general content disputes regarding biographical articles, try Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies instead. Editors are encouraged to assist editors regarding the reports below. Administrators may impose contentious topic restrictions to enforce policies.

Daily Kos

• Daily Kos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - At the talk page of this article and the subject at the crux of the debate, Armando (blogger), a discussion as to whether it was appropriate to put personal details of this living person in. The details (full name, profession, law firm) are not libellious in nature, but it is asserted that the details in question may cause harm to the subject. These details have been published in very reliable sources - National Review, The New Republic - as well as publically distributed by the subject himself. Is this a BLP issue, and is it improper to have such information? // badlydrawnjeff talk 17:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Use of National Review and The New Republic as sources should be avoided as probable NPOV. Use of personal details in an article is highly highly discouraged. Electrawn 22:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yet they're from opposing sides? No one's relying on one side for one part of the info and one side for something separate, as discussion at the articles indicates. And use of personal details isn't discouraged, poorly sourced use is. Certainly, no one would consider two magazines of their stature poorly sourced, right? --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Was a majority of the damage/potential harm already done by articles posted in these publications posting the personal info? If Wikipedia can be used to further harm the anonymity of the blogger, avoid using it. If its out of the closet per se, then include it. If borderline, error on the side of keeping it out per WP:BLP. Electrawn 02:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me toss it out this way - there's nothing that's being put into the article that hasn't been published in two very reputable sources already. As the cat is out of the bag, no further damage could really be done unless we were going a step further and adding information that was not well sourced like this. If you have any question, there's a ton of discussion at the talk pages. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Jeff is, IMHO, quite right. The only concerns that I suppose might be raised is that Wikipedia serves to aggregate personal information already published in disparate reliable sources, but I don't appreciate the existence of any consensus for the proposition that BLP means to proscribe the inclusion of a real name and profession in situations such as this. Joe 03:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

In your opinion. These are mainstream, reputable publications and meet the requirements of WP:RS. Gamaliel 22:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a question. What is the useful encyclopedic purpose of including the personal information? Crockspot 13:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It was a newsworthy event. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe so, and it probably does not violate BLP. Just consider whether it really adds to the article. You should also consider whether we as Wikipedians should be aggregating personal data and publishing it in one place. That's the kind of crap that Daniel Brandt does with some Wikipedian's information -- do we really want to start doing that? Morton devonshire 01:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

That was what I was hinting at. Unless Daily Kos is hurting for examples of notability in order to maintain qualification under WP:WEB, which I don't think it is, I don't see how the inclusion of this information enriches an article about Daily Kos. It could be construed as a purely malicious entry. Crockspot 17:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Kancha Ilaiah

Kancha Ilaiah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - user:Blnguyen has protected the page ; the version does not conform to WP:BLP.Plz see the talk page.Immediate action required.HW 10:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The protection was entirely justified in this case. HW has been edit warring over a well-sourced insert on the subject of the article and making allegations of BLP violations despite the fact that several users clearly detailed that there was no BLP violation, nor defamation, nor anything (see article talk page). Instead of debating the matter, he has been making threats in my talk page of getting me blocked and using similar intimidation tactics. Please see his edit summaries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kancha_Ilaiah&action=history

[1]

Here: [2]

Here: [3]

He changed his stance suddenly and said that the edits were "in bad faith" whereas all good faith efforts were made

Here: [4] When another user reverted the changes back, he makes accusations of libel, which, I believe, constitute a legal threat and are a violation of Wikipedia: No legal threats.

Then he made allegations in the talk page that did not even make any coherent sense to me (or, for that matter, to any of the other involved parties).

In other edits , he said "revert as per talk page", yet no legitimate reason was provided in the talk page, nor a single coherent sentence that qualifies as a logical argument.

I repeatedly requested him to debate the matter sensibly, but he has just kept re-iterating his accusations in the article talk page. I do not believe that this merits the valuable time of those admins who are monitoring wikipedia for legitimate acts of BLP violations.

As example of a similar edit, note that the article on David Duke, a personality similar to Kancha Ilaiah has similar descriptions in the beginning (alleged white supremacist for Duke, alleged anti-Hindu for Ilaiah) and it was decided in the talk page of that article that no BLP violation was committed. Hkelkar 10:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You are not supposed to rant here .,It might be considered disruption of ANB.HW 10:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe that I was ranting. I believe that I was laying out the facts for the benefit of the admins viewing this "request".Hkelkar 10:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If you really have an issue with me ; Go for RfC.This method is not acceptable.HW 11:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Plz see Talk:Anti-brahmanism user:subhash bose made some remarks violating WP:BLP on Kancha Ilaiah,I deleted that citing diffs,he rv again. HW  17:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This matter has already been resolved. HW has engaged in furious and disruptive edit-warring over Kancha Ilaiah in the talk page of the article Talk:Kancha Ilaiah and has been censured by an admin to that effect. If you look at the talk page, it will be clear that both admin and several editors agree that the term "anti-Brahmin" is quite apt since Ilaiah has decribed himself as such on numerous occassions.Shiva's Trident 17:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The matter has not been resolved , Mediator Ben agrees to it ref:Talk:Kancha Ilaiah.This person has charged Kancha in rather incivil tone which has no foundation at all.Matter must be looked into immediately. HW  17:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Jeff Gannon and articles linked to it

• Jeff Gannon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - The Jeff Gannon article, and at LEAST one other article linked to it, makes a claim that Mr. Gannon is a male prostitute. The Gannon article also has a category of "courtesans and prostitutes". The sources cited to verify this claim are, for the most part, editorials written by authors who can arguable be called biased. While these sources allude to Mr. Gannon being a male prostitute, in none of them can be found evidence that he ever actually engaged in prostitution, which is a crime in nearly every state of the US. I have removed these statements several times, citing WP:BLP, from Jeff Gannon, and from List of famous prostitutes and courtesans. My edits have continuously been reverted by an admin, Gamaliel. This admin disputes my contention that the sources do not verify the claim. I requested an advocate from AMA, and since my dispute is with an admin, another admin, Fred Chess, was assigned as my advocate. The advocate has briefly examined the sources, and also cannot find evidence to support the claim that Gannon ever engaged in prostitution, and also points out that he believes that prostitution is a crime.User talk:Crockspot#AMA_request There is no evidence that Gannon has ever been arrested, charged, or convicted of prostitution.

I am not seeking any sanctions against Gamaliel, I simply want the statements removed, or solidly sourced (which I don't believe can be done at this time). Perhaps a protection of the articles after editing is also in order. Gamaliel and I are of different political persuasions, and have had several disagreements in the past, however this one seems so clear cut to me, and speaks to the basic credibility of Wikipedia as a whole. I am afraid that his personal feelings toward me may be clouding his objectivity on this one. I generally try to handle my own disputes, but this one is beyond my ability to resolve.

Here are the sources cited at the two most aggregious articles linked above.

• [5] (is this even in compliance with WP:RS?)
• [6]
• [7] - another questionable RS, whose evidentiary links are almost all dead.
• [8] - possibly the strongest source, yet IMO, still gives no evidence of actually engaging in prostitution.
• [9] - editorial
• [10] - editorial from perhaps the most left mass publication in the US.

One may possibly argue from these sources that there were nude photos of him online, that there may have been pricetags associated with these photos, or that his sexual orientation may be other than heterosexual, but one cannot verify that he ever actually engaged in prostitution, and therefore calling him such in his biography, catetgorizing his biograpy as such, and listing him on a list of famous prostitutes, is inappropriate and against Wikipedia policy as set forth in WP:BLP.// Crockspot 16:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't an issue for BLP, this is an attempted end run around discussion and consensus. This discussion belongs on Talk:Jeff Gannon as a content dispute. And the personalities involved are irrelevant, as if Crockspot can build a consensus among the editors of that article, my objections would be rendered moot. Gamaliel 22:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a BLP issue. BLP changes the rules about consensus and discussion due to potential defamation and strawman arguments. Cut first, then discuss and build consensus. The burden of proof shifts to the editors who want content to remain. If it wasn't a biography, regular consensus forming would be followed. Electrawn 03:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is my take on this. I had posted it elsewhere, it seems more appropriate to bring it here. At Talk:List of famous prostitutes and courtesans#Alleged male prostitutes, User:Crockspot and I are having a disagreement about the threshold of reliability required by WP:BLP. If I understand him correctly, he is saying that regardless of the caliber of a source, there must be multiple independent sources. Those sources must not have any axe to grind. And perhaps he is claiming something even more restrictive than that, which I'm not quite picking up. I find the second requirement a bit troubling, because it is hard to say who does and does not have an axe to grind. In this case, the two sources I provided, which were rejected as inadequate, were:
1. An opinion piece, published in The Guardian in the UK, which states as fact that the individual in question was a prostitute. As most of you know, the UK has pretty much the world's toughest libel laws, so that if the individual had any intention of challenging this, then that was the ideal venue to do so
2. A piece (originally from The Nation, but reprinted on CBS's website) that says that the individual "apparently was seeking customers as a gay, military-oriented prostitute."
Since then another editor has found two articles from the Washington Post asserting, respectively, that the individual's "naked pictures have appeared on a number of gay escort sites" and that he "was offering his escort services for $200 an hour, or $1,200 a weekend". So, if these don't add up to enough, I'm a bit bewildered. Is Crockspot correctly interpreting this rule? If so, I believe we have an enormous amount of material about living people that does not meet this level of citation, probably the bulk of it. - Jmabel | Talk 00:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

From my experience in the industry, opinion pieces generally don't go the same fact-checking and vetting processes as regular articles. This generally makes them a poor primary source, which seems to be the use in the article. As a source in general, The Guardian is reliable. The Washintonpost is reliable. I believe WP:BLP with WP:NPOV apply a higher standard of WP:RS. Tone and bias of sources may have to be vetted on an individual basis for inclusion in an article. Under an ordinary article, using a dubious source may not damage any one individual and wikipedia can move slow to correct it. Under a biography of a living person, there is possibility of harm and reputation to the person and their career via wikipedia. Most states will recognize that accusations of homosexuality are defamation per se, Slander#Defamation_per_se. In english, we are well down the road to a judgement in a potential defamation suit, its already assumed the statement is defamitory. This seems to be why Crockspot is raising such a stink, and he has the exceptions granted in the power of WP:BLP to do so. Make sure the sources used are rock solid in any BLP article. Also, editors who revert such material are to be held accountable, not the editor deleting the material. Further, the fact that wikipedia has an enormous about of material that doesn't pass a high bar of WP:BLP is quite agreeably disturbing. Electrawn 03:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I have been trying to make the editors above aware that BLP has a higher standard, and that standard has been evolving. I didn't feel that I was being adequately heard, and that is why I brought it here. It is true that there is an ENORMOUS amount of libellous material on Wikipedia, and that is one of the reasons I have been pushing for a task force specifically charged with dealing with these issues. This noticeboard is a good start, but we need to really crack down. Crockspot 12:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Something along the lines of Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism_Unit. I have been monitoring Wikipedia:Neutrality_Project, Wikipedia:Criticism,Wikipedia:Guidelines_for_controversial_articles. Libel-Protection Unit? Wikipedia:Libel-Protection_Unit Electrawn 15:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

On further contemplation, I think that the strongest statement supported by the sources is something along the lines of "Some have alleged that Gannon is a male prostitute". Anything stronger than that would be drawing a conclusion from the sources, and that, I believe, is Original Research. Crockspot 14:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it would be directly quoting news stories in the Post to say that "[his] naked pictures have appeared on a number of gay escort sites" and he "was offering his escort services for $200 an hour, or $1,200 a weekend". [11] [12] That's rather more specific than the mealy-mouthed "some have alleged", and much more verifiable. - Jmabel | Talk 19:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If it said "According to an editorial in the WaPo, blah blah blah (in quotes)", with a link to the article, then it conceivably would be more of a grey area. Wikipedia is merely presenting the information reported, and allowing the reader to draw their own conclusion as to its veracity. Is it still a violation of BLP? I'm not sure. (In some cases, it might be preferable to use the mealy-mouthed approach, for brevity's sake, ie., when the quotes are long, or there are a lot of them.) But that is a far cry from listing Gannon on List of famous prostitutes and courtesans, even with the same source links. Just appearing on that list is having a conclusion drawn about him. Perhaps another article called List of famous alleged prostitutes and courtesans would be more of a grey area, though I am not recommending the creation of that article. Crockspot 19:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the bar is set the same as in mainstream media/journalism. You say the word alleged until convicted by a court of law. Until someone even attempts to charge him with anything, calling him a alleged prostitute is still shaky ground. If he says it in a direct quote "I am a prostitute" and that was published in a reliable source, then that can be included in wikipedia. An article from a reliable source claiming he may be a prostitute should be identified as such and use direct quotes. XYZ at the WSJ says QRS may have been involved with an escort service. This still makes wikipedia look like tabloid journalism. Further, an escort service and prostitute are seperate things. While escort services are often fronts for prostitution, one does not imply the other. Naked pictures of a guy on a website with the phrase $200 an hour probably wouldn't hold up in a prostitution court case, nor can it hold up in wikipedia. Electrawn 23:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, absurd. The reports have been repeatedly published in major news sources and as such, are prima facie verifiable. "The Washington Post has reported that Gannon offered his services as a male prostitute" would not in the least bit violate any Wikipedia policies. FCYTravis 15:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The Washington Post articles are not editorials, they are news stories. - Jmabel | Talk 07:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

At this point in the discussion, it is clear that Gannon's inclusion on the List of famous prostitutes and courtesans is unjustifiable. He has never seen the inside of a courtroom over prostitution, nor made a public admission. He cannot be listed as a known prostitute. The Jeff Gannon article still seems up to debate, though a less conclusionary rewrite will be required. Since I listed this case here, I have been holding off of doing any edits, but if someone else doesn't remove him from List of famous prostitutes and courtesans in the next day or so, I will be bold and do it myself. Crockspot 19:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Barbara Schwarz

I have been working on the article at Barbara Schwarz. The original article and talk pages have been deleted. The page is now unprotected and discussion is ongoing regarding structure of the new article. Fred Bauder 00:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the specific concerns are, so I left a little general guidance on the article's talk page. Crockspot 21:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Just a heads up, but (according to a reply over there) apparently the subject of this article is soliciting an attorney to sue Wikipedia, Wikimedia, etc., over the article. Crockspot 21:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• I took a closer look at the article. The only thing that really jumps out at me is that some of the sources are usenet postings made (supposedly) by the subject. I don't know if those are primary sources, are verifiable, etc. Could be wandering into an OR grey area. I'd like someone else to take a look. Crockspot 23:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Under Wikipedia policy, the usenet postings cannot be considered reliable. Delete them. Morton devonshire 23:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

They are by the subject herself, telling her own story. More or less like a link to personal website. Fred Bauder 23:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)