Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/James Milner/archive1: Difference between revisions

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→‎James Milner: Chensiyuan issues issues addressed but he a bit busy right now.
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****Odd I thought I'd done this. Anyway fixed now. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bole2|Bole2]] ([[User talk:Bole2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bole2|contribs]]) 07:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
****Odd I thought I'd done this. Anyway fixed now. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bole2|Bole2]] ([[User talk:Bole2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bole2|contribs]]) 07:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


*'''Oppose''' there's something about this article that doesn't allow me to support its FA candidature. The flow of the article is strange in too many parts. Just some e.g.:
*<s>'''Oppose'''</s> there's something about this article that doesn't allow me to support its FA candidature. The flow of the article is strange in too many parts. Just some e.g.:
**"He has since established himself in the Newcastle first team and has now made over a hundred appearances for them. He creates scoring chances and does not score many goals. Outside of football he is an easygoing person who rarely speaks to the media." -- we all know the lead is a summary, but this is really taking it too literally.
**"He has since established himself in the Newcastle first team and has now made over a hundred appearances for them. He creates scoring chances and does not score many goals. Outside of football he is an easygoing person who rarely speaks to the media." -- we all know the lead is a summary, but this is really taking it too literally.
***What are you suggesting? More info, less, wording? [[User:Bole2|Buc]] 16:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
***What are you suggesting? More info, less, wording? [[User:Bole2|Buc]] 16:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:26, 12 October 2007

James Milner

self-nomination I first discovered this article like this and I’ve been trying to expand it for the last couple of months. It’s already an A-Class article, had 2 PR and I’ve checked all areas of the FA criteria and IMO it covers them. I’ve been told that the fact the subject being so young is not an issue in terms of getting it to featured status, obviously it will be in terms of keeping it there. Buc 09:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
  1. any reason why first name of author in ref 19 is in caps?
    • Because that's how it reads in the article. Does it matter? Buc 14:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. please choose between BBC or BBC sport e.g. ref 15 versus ref 18.
    • Fixed, they all say BBC now. Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. any reason why icnetwork is italicised in refs 46 and 49 but icnewcastle in refs 40 etc. is not? There are other obvious examples; basically, why are some site names italicised and the majority isn't?
    • The italics are the ones with the "work" lable. I've changed them all to "publisher" now. Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  4. any reason why some ref site names have .com/.co.uk etc. but others don't?
    • What's the rule here? Buc 14:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • consistency. Chensiyuan 15:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Remove .com. Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  5. any reason why some ref site names are wikilinked (BBC, the FA), but some that can be wikilinked are not? (soccernet, sky sports)
    • soccernet, sky sports now linked. Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  6. correct me if i'm wrong, but "Leeds also insisted that he would not be sold, the chairman of the team at the time even referred to him as "the future of Leeds"." -- any grammatical issues?
    • You tell me. The grammer checker on my computer has no problem with it and it wasn't toughed during the copyedit. I honestly couldn't tell you. Buc 14:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    That is, in fact, wrong. Fixed. --carelesshx talk 20:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. Chensiyuan 03:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  7. please ensure that wp:date is complied with -- re: wikilinking months/days. I'm actually not 100% sure if all months/days should be wikilinked though, but it seems to be the case.
    • As far as I know only full day/month/year dates should be linked. Buc 14:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Let me extract the relevant portion of wp:date -- "Full dates, and days and months, are normally autoformatted". Chensiyuan 03:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ok all dates are linked. Buc 07:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  8. "Milner has a good discipline record; he has been booked only 15 times in his career and has never been sent off." -- I don't disagree with the conclusion that he has a good record, but i can imagine people objecting to this inference...
    • Removed "good" and "only". Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  9. spelling: should it be play-off or playoff? Chensiyuan 13:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • playoffs Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  10. The "style of play section" really reads like a collection of random statements in some parts. The prose should flow better. Take a closer look at the thematic organisation -- you're saying, in the following order:
    1. He's unselfish and provides assists
    2. He is bored when not playing (but which professional isn't? What's the point of saying this?)
    3. He can pass but cannot defend
    4. He takes setpieces
    5. He reads the game well
    6. He has pace
    7. He can pass (second time passing is mentioned but done several sentences later)
    8. He is seldom booked
    9. He is praised for his pace (second time pace is mentioned but done several sentences later)
    10. He has a good work ethic
    11. Wayne Rooney taking pressure off him
    12. Skysports rating. Do you see where I'm coming from? Chensiyuan 14:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not the best person to deal with this. But the article has just had a copyedit. I guess this section was neglected. Tried to impoved at little though. I've tried to link a few of the sentences together and I've moved a few of them around. Where I can't find a link I've started a new paragraph. Buc 14:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've copy-edited Buc's changes a little bit. It's still not perfect but I think it is more readable and less list-y now. --carelesshx talk 15:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the third para of the lead, the mention of his easygoing personality is rather abrupt. Chensiyuan 17:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Are you suggesting I remove it? Buc 17:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Because the lead is meant to summarise the article, something about his style of play (which includes his personality it seems) has to be in the lead. Given the rather substantial content in "style of play", something about it has got to be mentioned in the lead. Chensiyuan 17:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Added another sentence. Buc 18:19, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The article looks in really good shape overall. I would suggest the line on his Skysports rating is added to one of the other paragraphs. A one sentence paragraph looks a bit disjointed. Was the rating for the previous season or does it also include this season's performances? This might be worth including. Dave101talk  19:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's the current rating. Buc 20:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Support All outstanding issues have been addressed so I'll support. Dave101talk  18:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved stuff from Woodym555
  • Oppose Although solicited through my talk page, i haven't edited the article in the past so don't feel there is a conflict of interest. I have a few comments mainly regarding citations actually. (which is why it is oppose for now):
  • Milner believed the chance to play with Smith worked as a learning curve because he had done what Milner was aspiring to do — to come through the Academy and play for first team. This is confusing. How about: Milner believed the chance to play with Smith worked as a learning curve because Smith had done what Milner aspired to do — to come through the Academy and play for the first team.
    • Fixed Buc 06:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first line of the Leeds United section is copied verbatim from [1].
    • Rephares. Buc 14:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, financial problems eventually forced them to sell him to Newcastle United after accepting an offer of £3,600,000. The two don't follow, perhaps: However, financial problems eventually forced them to sell him to Newcastle United for an initial price of £3,600,000. The final total paid was £5,000,000 after a certain number of appearances for the new club.
    • Fixed
  • This was in a qualification game against Wales during the 2007 European Under-21 Championship. England won the match 2–0 Change to This was in a 2007 European Under-21 Championship group game against Wales which England won 2–0. I presume that is what it is meant to say, i cant be sure because it is unreferenced. The link goes to a Switzerland game in which he scored: [2]
    • Changed ref. Don't know how or why I put the Switzerland game in. Buc 06:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • That reference should be moved to the comment about the England/Swiss game in the Newcastle section.
      •  Done
  • First European goal. The reference says that he scored not that it was his first goal in Europe. [3]
    • Couldn't find a ref which said if so I've rephared it. Buc 14:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personally i despise the accent in début, hardly English is it? Perhaps i am just a philistine...
    • FixedBuc 15:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All in all have a check of the references and make sure they actually say what you want them to say. Woodym555 22:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All fixed now I hope Buc 15:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (I hadn't forgotten about you Buc, i was waiting for you to fix The Rambling Man's problems.) Woodym555 21:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment however this FA proceeds, serious kudos to Buc who's been the powerhouse behind this article's massive improvements. --Dweller 12:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is that a support? If so please say so. Buc 14:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Have had it in mind to review for some time, but only now got round to it. Sorry. Great article that's improved immeasurably. I like what you've done with the two boxed quotes. Minor niggle, that I think a rose-tinted-spectacles comment from a nn kids' team coach might be given undue prominence, but doesn't detract from this being an FA quality article. Caveat - I know very little about photo licensing and I urge someone who understands the issue to confirm that all of the pix are properly licensed. --Dweller 09:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have perssion to use the three I uploaded. Another was taken by the user who uploaded it. James Milner 17.jpg may be an issue though. Buc 10:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think James Milner 17.jpg is fine. The correct licence has been applied at Flickr. The Rambling Man 10:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)
  • "...four major national clubs ..." - Swindon major? I'd opt for something like "four English professional clubs". Major is VERY subjective.
  • "He once held the record for the youngest player ever to score in the Premier League, as well as second youngest player ever to play in the Premier League." is then repeated pretty much straight away in the next paragraph. Is there any need to have it in both places?
    • It's in a seprate section though so I think it's ok. Buc 11:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Separated by about two sentences? No, I think if it's important enough to be repeated in should go in the lead. The Rambling Man 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • It is. Buc 12:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • So you've got the same information three times? It's too much. The Rambling Man 13:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "impressed many reporters", "impressed several reporters" - in same para, makes for poor reading.
  • "promising displays" - POV unless you can quote it.
  • "Tottenham Hotspur, Aston Villa and Everton all expressed an interest in him,[7] but Milner rejected Tottenham's offer because they were based too far from his family home." - did he therefore not reject Villa or Everton?
    • The ref doesn't say anything eles. But my guess would be Villa and Everton never actually made an offer they just expressed interest. Buc 11:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well it needs to be clarified that only Spurs made an offer then. The Rambling Man 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "fiasco" - POV.
  • "so some have doubted..." - reword something like "which has led some to doubt..."
  • Order citations numerically.
  • "... as well as taking the ball past defenders. He therefore does not score many goals,..." - that doesn't work for me. If he takes balls past defenders it's not a logical conclusion to state that he won't score many goals.
  • Place [50] per WP:CITE.
  • "He currently has an overall player rating of 6.6 out of 10 by SkySports.com." - this needs explanation for the non-expert (which is important for FAC). Is 6.6 good? What does it represent? How is it calculated?
    • I've been wondering for a while now if it might be best to remove the altogether. Buc 11:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well I'd agree unless you can demonstrate its significance. The Rambling Man 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These need to be sorted out before FAC can be supported. The Rambling Man 10:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ok I think I've fixed all issue raised now. Buc 14:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose there's something about this article that doesn't allow me to support its FA candidature. The flow of the article is strange in too many parts. Just some e.g.:
    • "He has since established himself in the Newcastle first team and has now made over a hundred appearances for them. He creates scoring chances and does not score many goals. Outside of football he is an easygoing person who rarely speaks to the media." -- we all know the lead is a summary, but this is really taking it too literally.
      • What are you suggesting? More info, less, wording? Buc 16:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Milner himself said he would like to join Villa because of the probability of being a regular starter, but admitted that his future was beyond his control.[29] Milner was generally seen as a positive signing in what was a disappointing season for Villa.[30]" -- don't see the connection between the second and first sentence even if i read both in the context of the paragraph they belong to.
      • Tried rewording it. Buc 16:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • ditto the first and second paragraph of "Return to Newcastle United". In fact the whole section seems to be one-sentence summaries after another of his 2005-2007 milestones but nothing more. It's symptomatic of the whole article really.
      • Reworded. Buc 17:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • really too much usage of "he states" "he believes" "he is described as" etc. throughout the article
      • What should it be? Buc 16:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • If you don't think it's overused, then there's no need to change it. Otherwise, there's really plenty of ways to give the phrasing some variety. Chensiyuan 01:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Is "he states" "he believes" "he is described as" "he said" "confirmed that" and "was reported" not enough of a variety already? Buc 07:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


 Doing... another copyedit requested Buc 20:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC) Ok I've improved the flow of the article now but I still need more information on other issues raised. Buc 20:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • (Change from Strong to) Weak Oppose per above. For all good intentions this article reads in too many spots like a repository of select content from newspapers/websites and so on. Can somebody also explain why "prestigious" is in inverted commas? Beyond that, consider too -
    • It a quote. Buc 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I know it's a quote but it is misleading rather than helpful.
        • How is it misleading? Buc 17:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Maybe not misleading, it simply looks awkward. Chensiyuan 04:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • I can't remove them because it would become POV then. I'll try rewording it.Buc 09:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Buc 07:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. His earliest memory of Leeds is watching them win the FA Youth Cup in 1993.[3] He also showed talent in cricket and played for the Yorkshire Schools team, --> also what?
    • Umm, also showed talent in cricket and played for the Yorkshire Schools team? What are you getting at. Buc 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Also" is completely misused.
        • Removed. Buc 16:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Milner believed the chance to play with Smith worked as a learning curve because Smith had done what Milner aspired to do — to come through the Academy and play for the first team.[3] Making good progress at the academy, he was taken on as a trainee after leaving school. He remarked that he had to pinch himself playing alongside first team players such as David Batty and Olivier Dacourt, but also said he did not want to get excited and think that he "had already made it".[2] He continued to improve his skills with the youth team, playing for the Republic of Ireland at Under-14 level and England at Under-15 and Under-17 levels.[1][5] He helped England win the 2002 Under-17 Nationwide summer tournament against Italy, Czech Republic and Brazil, with a goal against the latter.[6] --> after referece number 3, it's "he" all the way. Not right.
    • Really? What's the rule here? Buc 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Rules of the English language.
        • Ok and what is that rule? Buc 16:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • I suspect that given the way it's phrased "he" could refer to more than Milner. Chensiyuan 11:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • Ok every praragraph has "Milner" when he is first mentioned now. Buc 11:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. He has also established himself in the England under-21 side --> what does this mean?
    • He's a regular in the England under-21 side. Buc 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I assure you they are not perfectly synonymous.
        • Reworded. Buc 16:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just some examples. Manderiko 16:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

 Doing... another copyedit requested Buc 20:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC) Ok I've improved the flow of the article now but I still need more information on other issues raised. Buc 20:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*We all know the lead is a summary, but this is really taking it too literally.

    • Need more information on what exactly the problem is.
      • I presume it's a criticism that the Lead is too long. It's slightly excessive, though not madly. See if you can prune it down to four paragraphs, while making the overall length slightly shorter too. Remove the least important bits. --Dweller 08:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC) [reply]
        • I think you did well. NB relevant link for your reference is WP:LEAD --Dweller 08:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It’s a bit of a mess now so I’m just to summaries outstanding issues.

  • Really too much usage of "he states" "he believes" "he is described as" etc. throughout the article
    • Need more information on what exactly the problem is.
  • “He also showed talent in cricket and played for the Yorkshire Schools team” also what?
    • Don’t really understand this question. I’ve removed the “also” but I don’t know if that’s really what you meant.
  • "He has also established himself in the England under-21 side" what does this mean?
    • I’ve rephrased it but again don’t know if that’s really what you meant.
  • "Just some examples."
    • Ok if you let me know what the other issues are I’m happy to fix them.
  • The flow of the article should be ok now but I’m not really an expert on that sort of thing so you might want to check it.

Buc 14:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • "At Under-17 level he helped England win the 2002 Under-17 Nationwide summer tournament against Italy, Czech Republic and Brazil, with a goal against the latter." -- this sentence is clumsy (no need to repeat under-17); "latter" may not be the best word to use in this context; the national teams cannot be wikilinked? Anyway, the prose has improved, so kudos to those who helped with that aspect. I will change my vote above... Manderiko 15:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "the national teams cannot be wikilinked" no because we are taking about the u17 teams here. Buc 18:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the start of the 2003–04 season, Milner was sent on a month-long loan to Division Two side Swindon Town to gain experience as a first team player, which he saw as a valuable experience." -- did he think it was a valuable experience before, or after the stint? I do not think the sentence makes it clear. Manderiko 15:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Both fixed Buc 18:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)
  • Ballboy links to a disambiguation page which is confusing for the non-expert reader.
    • It doesn't have it's own article. I guess I could red link.
      • Well right now there are two definitions on that page which could apply. The Rambling Man 08:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Fixed
  • "...his main role to the team ..." - role in the team or contribution to the team?
    • Added "in"
  • "He does not however score many goals." - well, you've already said what his main contribution is so why "however..." - frankly this sentence is not needed in the lead.
    • Removed
  • Why link Republic of Ireland to Republic of Ireland#Sport and not the national football team? I know it's under 14s only but surely more relevant...
    • If I did that I'd have link Italy, Czech Republic and Brazil under 17 teams too.
      • Yes, and the problem with that is what? The Rambling Man 08:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just making sure you know. Fixed.
  • Peter Taylor links to a disambiguation page.
    • Fixed
  • "...things changed ..." - things?
    • Not sure what you want here but I've changed it to "the situation"
  • [25] is incorrectly placed.
    • ******Moved
  • "Although Roeder also praised the way Milner had handled the failure of the Villa transfer, he himself was criticised for the way he had handled the negotiations with Villa, he refused to apologise for this however. He also confirmed that he would play Milner in "plenty of games". This proved to be the case, as Milner started the season playing regularly in the first team and remained a starter for the entire season." not cited.
    • Moved ref
  • "sub-par" - strange word. Is it a direct quote?
    • No. I didn't add this so I don't know why it's there. Removed as it seems a bit redundent.

The Rambling Man 07:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed in some way Buc 07:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]