Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement

This board is for users to request enforcement under the terms of the climate change article probation. Requests should take the following format:

{{subst:Climate Sanction enforcement request

| User against whom enforcement is requested          
  = <Username>

| Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
  = [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation]]

| Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so 
  <!-- When providing several diffs, please use a numbered list as in this example. -->
=<p>
# [<Diff>] <Explanation>
# [<Diff>] <Explanation>
# [<Diff>] <Explanation>
# ...

| Diffs of prior warnings
=<p>
# [<Diff>] Warning by {{user|<Username>}}
# [<Diff>] Warning by {{admin|<Username>}}
# ...

| Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) 
  = <Your text>

| Additional comments 
  = <Your text>
}}

This will generate a structure for managing the request including a second level header. Please place requests underneath the following divider, with new requests at the bottom of the page. For instructions on generating diff links, see Help:Diff.

For Requests for refactoring of Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines violations only, comments by parties other than the requester, the other party involved, and the reviewing/actioning/archiving editor will be removed.

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Marknutley

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Marknutley

User requesting enforcement

ChrisO (talk) 22:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

I hold no brief for William M. Connolley; I've said previously that he could stand to be more civil. However, I'm concerned about the constant flow of complaints from editors opposed to his POV. We currently have two WMC-related threads running simultaneously. Someone mentioned above that the latest is the 8th enforcement thread that's been opened concerning him. It should be obvious by now that this enforcement process is being abused for political reasons. This kind of behaviour should be strongly discouraged. Action is needed to send a signal to all editors that frivolous enforcement requests filed in pursuit of a vendetta are not acceptable.

The worst offender by far is Marknutley, who has been responsible for no fewer than three enforcement threads against WMC. The first was "Closed as unactionable. Please do not use this page as a mere extension of content disputes." [1] The second was closed as "No action. All editors are reminded to be proactive in seeking dispute resolution, starting with the talkpage." [2] His latest thread is likely to go the same way, given the absurd complaints being made ("old fruit" is a personal attack? Seriously?).

I suggest barring Marknutley from making any further enforcement requests - it is absurd that he alone is responsible for more than a third of all the complaints against WMC. Every complaint he has made has been dismissed as unactionable, and his latest complaint is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Marknutley has plainly not understood that article probation is not a means of pursuing a vendetta against other editors. He has abused this enforcement process by making repeated unactionable and frivolous complaints. His conduct is that of a vexatious litigant and he should be restrained from making any further enforcement requests. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. [3] Notification by Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

{{{Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)}}}

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Enforcement action requested: Injunction against Marknutley making any further enforcement requests.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

Discussion concerning Marknutley

Statement by Marknutley

Comments by others about the request concerning Marknutley

Extended content

This is ridiculous. SIX different editors have asked for enforcement against WMC, three of them have resulted in warnings against WMC (but of course it never goes beyond that because WMC is untouchable), yet ChrisO is presenting this as evidence of "abuse for political reasons"? Really? It's unbelievable to me how much apologizing is done on behalf of this one long term, abusive user. If admins would actually take a stand for once, maybe these requests would go away. ATren (talk) 23:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC) I think it's reasonable to state that the targetting of William M. Connolley (which is clearly taking toll on his equanimity) is overtly political and driven or at least strongly encouraged by, identifiable and quite openly declared outside interests. He has been attacked in the most dishonest terms by Lawrence Solomon and another writer, and there are any number of blogs repeating their easily debunked falsehoods as fact. We do not want to go down the route of disabling an editor simply because of extensive falsehoods written about him by people with a declared interest. On the other hand we must ensure that his failings, which are real, do not unduly warp our content. This is a difficult path to follow, because in truth he is a very valuable and welcome content editor and his conduct is in the broad context rather good. At the same time the conduct of those who attack him tends to be rather mixed and their value to this encyclopedia is often quite low or even negative. Whatever happens isn't going to be pretty. As long as we all recognise the immense external pressure William M. Connolley is under, we can be understanding at the same time as we are protective of Wikipedia's norms. I think Mark is a good editor who doesn't appreciate the problems in this particular area. Hopefully he can be educated. --TS 23:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC) Tony, WMC has been doing this for years, it's just now being recognized by more editors. And the editors filing these reports are not Scibaby, nor are they IPs that came out of the woodwork -- in fact, most have long edit histories outside of this debate. As for the "immense pressure", well if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. ATren (talk) 23:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC) You were doing fine (but without presenting evidence) until you dismissed the external pressure. This is real, we're aware of it. It's not deniable in the terms you use here. --TS 23:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC) I am working to collect evidence. It is a daunting problem to analyze tens of thousands of edits, and I am actually writing code to do so. It will take time, but I've been watching long enough to be confident in what the result will be. As for pressure, this is a website. Nothing life or death here. So if the pressure is so strong that an editor cannot maintain the minimal level of decorum required, then he should not edit. Civility is a core policy, and no single editor should supercede it. Also, consider this thought: what will happen if an admin takes a hard line against WMC? There's certainly the possibility he will leave, but it's also possible he will stop the behavior that got him sanctioned. It's happened to many former "problem" editors who reformed their behavior after being blocked. Right now, there's little reason for vested contributors like WMC to behave, because they know they're untouchable, but if they know they're going to be held to the same standard as everyone else, there's a good chance they'll adhere to that standard while still being a productive contributor. ATren (talk) 00:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC) What policy is Mark Nutley breaking? He's filed three independent requests in response to three independent incidents. Viewing reactions to the diffs given for other editors on this project page (e.g., see the "Kauffer" request above) it's not confused for MN to assume that the diffs given in his requests were actionable, whether or not they were actually acted upon.--Heyitspeter (talk) 00:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC) He's violating the policy against nitpicking, as well as the policy against timewasting. You didn't know those policies existed? Think again. --TS 00:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC) Hahah man I hate to WP:NITPICK but are you sure WP:NITPICK exists? If it doesn't then I've been ['[WP:TIMEWASTING|wasting my time]] trying to find it, in which case I hope that policy doesn't exist either...--Heyitspeter (talk) 00:45, 12 February 2010 (UTC) There where 6 editors filing for enforcement in 9 threads and many others complaining about WMC with constant evasion ... it's predictable that MN would be complained here. How can MN be any worse than the many incivil diffs presented against WMC? Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 01:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we ought to remove this section entirely from the template. Just let an uninvolved administrator look this over, and stop bickering. NW (Talk) 01:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• Yeah, stifling discussion and dissent is always a great idea. Scottaka UnitAnode 02:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
  • You've highlighted something very significant with your most recent posts. This page is not meant to hold long discussions about people disagreeing with each others' points of view. It is supposed to allow a small group of administrators to come to a quick decision about a disruptive user. If they think the user is not disruptive, the report will be dismissed. The discussions distract from this; rarely do they ever help. Plus, if an administrator wants to read them, they're still there. NW (Talk) 02:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Marknutley

There are apparently no shortage of editors who are prepared to bring forward complaints against WMC. Marknutley's complaints contain a high level of flawed accusations. This being the case I hereby ban Marknutley from bringing forward complaints until 12 April. Similar actions against others or after the ban expires may result in broader action being taken but I don't think it would be justified at this time.©Geni 03:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please do not comment on closed discussions. - 2/0 (cont.) 05:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I hereby encourage Marknutley to ignore this ludicrous "ban", as it has no basis in either policy or the actual sanctions. In fact, it stands in complete contravention to the sanctions. What utter nonsense. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC) Interesting point about contravention to the sanctions, I had not considered. I would prefer to see MN make better complains, perhaps there should be a wikilawyer's services (in the good faith interpretation) to assist him with forming the complaint and the process. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 05:00, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Note: The above request was brought at 22:46 on 11 Feb and closed less than 6 hours later. That's unacceptable. I would have protested this result, and in fact I still think it's unreasonable and needs revisiting. ++Lar: t/c 14:16, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• Which was exactly my point in the comment collapsed right above this. This rush to ban people from one side -- and to close even discussions of such bans for being too conentious -- is inappropriate in the extreme. Scottaka UnitAnode 14:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• I would disagree Lar. The reason for the existence of this noticeboard is that several disputes have become so long and drawn out that they need a quick resolution. We don't need to come to a consensus on everything; in fact, I would say that the unilateral actions of one administrator is more helpful in the long run in keeping order on this articles. And if you disagree with the result, contacting Geni might be the better way to go. NW (Talk) 22:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I think we need to work to a more consistent timing. Some of the dispute resolution attempts here have been long and drawn out too, which is not good. And some have been too short. Balance, and appropriate time, is needed... each dispute is different so hard and fast rules may not work but still. This one felt too short. I may be partly at fault for some of the more drawn out ones. ++Lar: t/c 14:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

ChildofMidnight

Suspended User:ChildofMidnight is subject to an ArbCom request. Depending on the outcome, this request may be reactivated or closed with or without sanction. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Request concerning ChildofMidnight User requesting enforcement ChyranandChloe (talk) 00:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy that this user violated Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it from Talk:Global warming Unproductive discussion, repeats ad nauseum issues without source and substantial reasons, WP:FORUM I'm sure our admin elite will sort this mess out in no time once they're made aware of it and have a chance to review the evidence of BozMo's foul play." Civility, disparaging sardonic demeanor. "...involvement has been very disruptive and his enforcements have only gone after one "side"" Battleground menality. "swan song of an incompetent and dishonest admin to me ... So you join an elite club of abusive admins who act improperly" Unwilling to conduct RFC/U, responds with personal attacks "doesn't change the fact that your involvement has been grotesquely biased and damaging." See previous. Note: Additional Diffs provided in context below. They are numbered. Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) Forum warning by 2over0 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Name calling warning by 2over0 Civility warning by 2over0 Civility and bad faith block warning by BozMo (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Probation warning by 2over0 Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) Topic Ban Additional comments by editor filing complaint Two central issues: (1) willful lack of respect for warnings, and (2) contempt. ChildofMidnight (CoM) has been repeatively warned by both administrators and editors of (1) unproductive discussion, (2) civility, and (3) battleground mentality. Two of these issues, unproductive discussion and civility, were raised on his user talk where he ignored in a sardonic and uncivil manner (discussions linked).6 The third, is a warning logged under this sanction (discussion archived here), which has been ignored. This willful lack of respect represents that warning as a remedy has failed. CoM is in contempt. He responds aggressively. 2over0 has issued the most warnings to CoM under this sanction. He has therefore received the most attacks because of such.7 Because of these attacks, Bozmo has temporarily blocked him. CoM responded aggressively to Bozmo.8 Diffs provided, CoM lacks the respect to resolve discussion in a productive manner. I am therefore requesting that ChildofMidnight be topic banned. ChyranandChloe (talk) 00:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. Diff provided, also requested unblock so that he may reply. ChyranandChloe (talk) 00:50, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Discussion concerning ChildofMidnight Statement by ChildofMidnight This is the worst kind of abusive forum shopping. BozMo's abusive and improper block was undone and I'm being retried on the same B.S. The first diff and statement are wholly innaccurate. I did not engage in "Unproductive discussion", repeat ad nauseum issues without source and substantial reasons, or engage in WP:FORUM. I made a specific point ONCE about the content and title of our global warming article. I pointed out that it does not include historical context, something that I've now been told has been noted repeatedly, but still hasn't gotten fixed. Anyone who checks Brittanica or dictionaries, will find that we're misrepresenting the subject matter out of any context and ommitting information about how this warming is different in some ways and similar in others to past events. It's quite simply not an article about global warming, it's about recent global warming or anthropogenic global warming. Most of the other diffs are out of context quotes where I objected to biased and abusive enforcements including a one week block by BozMo that was overturned unanimously as being wholly inappropriate. The reasoning was flawed, there was no discussion, and no warning. Hopefully we won't see any repeat performances from him. Some of his comments about me and defending William also make the block HIGHLY improper. It also needs to be pointed out that the comments I made pale in comparison to what we've seen here on this very page, and I hope that the block of William indicates that these kind of attacks and disruptions (on this very page) won't be allowed going forward: "ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is deliberately misusing this page." "CoM has made similar capricious, clueless and offensive edits just to make a WP:POINT against a perceived opponent. " "CoM should refrain from manufacturing events " "If CoM has nothing sensible to contribute, he should be banned from posting on this page or its talk page. Mathsci (talk) 07:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)" "At the moment he is gaming the system and misusing this page. Mathsci (talk) 17:43, 11 February 2010 " "Absolutely. Another example of baiting and gaming the enforcement system based on very little knowledge of the facts. I think. --Nigelj (talk) 09:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC) " "On the other point there is a difference between calling an editor malicious or an edit malicious. Compare "foolish". I make foolish edits sometimes and would not consider having an edit called foolish a PA. Calling me foolish would be quite another matter (I may be as well but it is a PA to say so). But I do not think this request is other than good faith. People do feel that WMC is offensive sometimes and some of the reason why it keeps coming back as an issue is a sense of frustration which is better aired, up to a point. --BozMo talk 09:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)" I think this quote is tellingly ironic. BozMo defends abusive behavior when it's someone he agrees with and friendly towards, and blocks editors for much less without any warning or discussion when they don't hold opinions he shares. Hypocritical? What remains is the same trivial mudracking we've seen before. It's a spurious pile-on request and should be discarded. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC) Calling trolls and POV morons trolls and POV morons isn't incivil, it's the truth. Truth is the ultimate defense to defamation. -- 166.135.160.248 "..."old fruit" is categorically inoffensive."--BozMo talk 09:19, 11 February 2010 (UTC) This relates to WMC calling other editors "old fruits". BozMo defended him, but fruit is derogatory slang in the United States to refer to gay people, so it's totally unacceptable on several grounds, especially from someone named William who objects to being called "Will". Even if it has a different meaning in the UK, calling people you disagree with names is inappropriate, and BozMo should cease encouraging that kind of disruptive and antagonistic behavior. 2over0 referred to an editors comments as "tendentious and unproductive" - 2/0 (cont.) 20:53, 11 February 2010 (UTC) which is also pretty insulting. Let's try to be more constructive and collegial. These are all comments from editors aggressively promoting AGW and seeking to censor to anything they disagree with no matter what how well sourced. Sadly, these comments weren't objected to, and instead we've seen a pattern of one-sided enforcements from 2over0, which is what I was objecting to in some of the above diffs. William Connolley was finally block after 7 or so filings and dozens of diffs by at least a dozen different editors, so I hope there is some hope going forward and that we won't see more abusive and disruptive incivility from Mathsci, Tarc, Nigelj, or Stephan Schulz, and that disruptions will be stopped no matter who the editors is engaging in it. This rehash of a bad block that was already overturned should be closed. We don't need inappropraite and disruptive filings of this sort. Let's focus on content and try to work together collegially with none of the incivility and disruption I've cited above. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:25, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Response from Mathsci ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user has written above that I am "aggressively promoting AGW and seeking to censor to anything they disagree with no matter what how well sourced". That is a deliberate and malicious lie. I have never edited a GW article nor have I expressed any view on the subject. I have commented that CoM's editing on this page is highly disruptive and that he is gaming the system. While he gets away with making baseless personal attacks on good faith editors that will continue to be the case. Mathsci (talk) 02:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning ChildofMidnight STRONG motion to suspend and close this now with prejudice. The editor is under 1 week block and can not defend themselves. This pile on can wait, unless an admin will unblock the editor for this now. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 01:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Agreed. I've requested an unblock, when CoM able to respond we can resume discussion. ChyranandChloe (talk) 01:37, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Editor is unblocked so no worries in terms of being unable to respond. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:23, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Comment. Definitely some problems here, but this whole climate change nexus of articles seems a complete and utter mess, with a number of people behaving badly on both sides. In ChildofMidnight's case, problematic behavior is not limited to one set of articles but has happened in multiple parts of the encyclopedia going back a long time. Rather than a specific request like this, a more general discussion about what to do (which may or may not end up happening here) could be more productive. I'd also just point out that I personally would not want to go anywhere near trying to enforce climate change probation. The editing/enforcement request environment seems to be unbelievably toxic, and the toxicity seems to be coming from folks on both sides, which makes trying to do anything as an admin an extremely unpleasant prospect. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC) It's very interesting that you've "dropped in" on the climate change articles. I wasn't aware that you were working on any of them? Instead of engaging in a disruptive soap boxy smear campaign against me, I wonder if you could offer some insights into the actual diffs. What is wrong with my first statement for example, where I point out the distortion of the global warming article so it completely lacks historical context? Have you compared our article to Encyclopedia Brittanica's? Or maybe you can address the other diffs where I object to biased enforcements including a block that overturned unanimously as being inappropriate? Frankly Bigtimepeace there are enough disruption and dispute without you coming here to see if you can rehash old conflicts and inflame new ones. Kindly remove your comments (and this one along with it) and start keeping your promise to stop seeking conflict with me. Hounding editors to seek out conflict is unacceptable. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Not so interesting, obviously I came here via the conversation at the administrator's noticeboard. I'm not advocating for anything to happen to you here, and indeed am suggesting that this specific request probably is not the right way to go. I'd be happy if it was closed down with no action and conversation continued at WP:AN, which is the only reason I posted here. There's no hounding or smearing or anything like that on my part, but you won't be troubled by any further posts from me here. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:46, 13 February 2010 (UTC) This is one of the irretrievably compromised editors I had in mind in my "Triage" suggestion on the talk page. He has added little of value and on the downside his presence editing in the area is toxic because of his unacceptable and inflammatory conduct. In my view it is imperative to the health of Wikipedia's coverage of the issue that he and editors with a similar pattern of editing as warfare be excluded as quickly as possible. I suggest a ban from all content and discussions related to climate change, broadly construed. A long ban would be best, because his responses suggest that he has absolutely no intention of adapting his behavior to concerns expressed by other editors. --TS 10:05, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Further, those wondering whether Child of Midnight's tone here is an anomaly in a career of otherwise unblemished and exemplary interaction should look at this: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/ChildofMidnight From the summary, written just over three weeks ago by closing administrator User:Nihonjoe: The main areas of concern are that CoM: Has regular and ongoing problem with making accusations against other editors (specifically and in general) without providing any supporting evidence Has failed to follow proper dispute resolution steps in almost all (if not all) cases Is apparently unwilling to accept any constructive criticism or suggestions provided in good faith by multiple editors who tried to help for at least the last six months Is very often contributing to discussions in an unhelpful and/or irrelevant manner And this is very much the way ChildofMidnight's problematic behavior has presented to us here in the past few weeks. The fact that the summary mentions his failure "to accept any constructive criticism or suggestions provided in good faith by multiple editors who tried to help for at least the last six months" (my emphasis) underlines the fact that he is not prepared to change his ways. This editor's presence in the climate change area of editing is an active danger to the chances of de-escalating hostility and restoring a collegial editing environment. --TS 11:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Comment - The first diff is an unobjectionable on-topic remark. One diff by definition can not support a charge of tendentious editing. (2),(3) and (5) are unactionable. Comments about the actions of others, including admins, do not run afoul of any policy I am aware of. (4) is personal attacks directed at an individual. Given the fact CoM was blocked under questionable circumstances at the time, no warnings re the remark were issued, and the editor to whom the remarks was directed raised no objections, CoM should perhaps be asked to refactor. I suggest this action be closed with a strong suggestion to CoM that he switch to decaf. JPatterson (talk) 17:00, 13 February 2010 (UTC) I concur. While I find CoM's style unhelpful at times, a topic ban is serious overkill.--SPhilbrickT 18:49, 13 February 2010 (UTC) I refactored #4. It's been a very frustrating experience and, unfortunately, it continues. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2010 (UTC) I agree with JPatterson and Sphilbrick, and I'm glad to hear #4 was refactored. Comments made immediately after being blocked are commonly discounted. And yes, switch to decaf. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:44, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Due Process Tangential to this case I find most of the above decidedly unhelpful. Prejudicial comments like "This is one of the irretrievably compromised editors I had in mind","problematic behavior is not limited to one set of articles but has happened in multiple parts of the encyclopedia going back a long time", and "those wondering whether Child of Midnight's tone here is an anomaly.." do not belong here. If you have diffs that you think violate the sanctions probation start another action. Otherwise we should deal with the specific allegation of this case. JPatterson (talk) 15:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC) The term "due process" has, or should have, no place in the production of an encyclopedia. We're faced with an editor who exhibits a chronic failure to work well with others and a chronic unwillingness to improve his behavior in that regard. We're also aware that little or none of his contributions to Wikipedia on climate change have been helpful and most of them have made the atmosphere on some of the most contentious articles almost intolerably bad. Swift action is imperative. The health of Wikipedia's coverage of climate change is compromised by that editor's propensity for treating the wiki as a battleground. No amount of "due process" will alter that. --TS 18:52, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Due process is fundamental to wp:civil within Wikipedia reasonableness; however, content seems to take precedent over human rights in wiki. In CoM's case here, there were a few things clearly out of order with the process. We all benefit by justice well served.Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 01:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC) This page is not about the production of an encyclopedia, it's about sanctions where fundamental fairness requires some measure of due process. While we're on the subject of encyclopedia production (and due process for that matter), I'll add this remark from the CoM RFC closing that you neglected to include: "Almost everyone here agrees that CoM is an excellent editor in general when it comes to working on and creating articles." If we are going to give latitude to experienced editors who contribute productively we must do so on both sides of the divide. JPatterson (talk) 19:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Every single page on Wikipedia is about the production of an encyclopedia. Every single action and comment on this wiki that is not about the production of an encyclopedia can be, and should be, disregarded, removed or deleted. See the Ignore all rules policy for an eloquent and pithy expression of this. Editors who are a net deficit to Wikipedia's coverage of this area of content should be encouraged to go elsewhere. On Child of Midnight's high quality of editing elsewhere, note that it was him I had in mind in my comments in the Triage section on the talk page: " Some of those have shown that they are capable of splendid work elsewhere and they should be encouraged to do so." . --TS 19:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC) I find it passing strange than anyone would attempt to sustain an argument against some measure of due process on a RfS page. In any case, if you have generic concerns with an editors behavior there are other forums available to you.This one is about specific allegations. JPatterson (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Your claim about the nature of this page is false. No page on Wikipedia is devoted solely to procedure. But since you ask for specific examples I suggest you examine the diffs provided. --TS 13:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Response to uninvolved admins @BozMo, where you say: "There is clearly a pattern of strong language incivility and abuse, much of it violently rejecting anyone who attempts to rein him in a little, with occasional spells of sweetness. It is going to be hard to improve the atmosphere with someone who behaves like this. I think we have reached a point where there is enough grounds for a topic ban." I am having difficulty distinguishing if you are talking about WMC and/or COM, as this may apply to both. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Your opinion on this is noted, but not really relevant here. --BozMo talk 20:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC) I guess not when ignoring credibility. Best to clear this up, or restore credibility somewhere else. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC) @2/0, yet to close. The editor is under complaint at arbcom now, having two open at once can not be fair to all involved. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) Result concerning ChildofMidnight This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. I have hesitated about contributing here because although I am uninvolved, I was attacked when I blocked him but I have limited wiki time so I thought I would comment now. In part I will give a view, which probation definitions allow here because I am sufficiently concerned about the possibility that CoM is deliberately attacking admins to try to make them become involved. (1) I had a look at CoM after I requested WMC give an explanation for calling him "malicious" [4]. There is clearly a pattern of strong language incivility and abuse, much of it violently rejecting anyone who attempts to rein him in a little, with occasional spells of sweetness. It is going to be hard to improve the atmosphere with someone who behaves like this. I think we have reached a point where there is enough grounds for a topic ban. As an aside Ref his edit [5] the claim that there is forum shopping or that he has been in anyway found innocent, or that my block was found unfair is not correct "Beeblebrox (talk | contribs | block) unblocked "ChildofMidnight (talk | contribs)" ‎ (to allow him to participate in ArbCom case related to his actions)" here.(2) However at risk of stating the obvious I would like to be entirely clear to other uninvolved admins that it isn't personal for me and any outcome which is good for Wikipedia would be great. --BozMo talk 08:13, 13 February 2010 (UTC) I apologize for my failure to fully state the reasons for the unblock in the log. Allowing participation here was a secondary concern, the primary reason was in fact that there was consensus at WP:AN that this block was not merited. This is not me saying it wasn't merited, just my actions based on the results of that conversation. I was perhaps overzealous in trying to convince CoM to take this process seriously, and failed to record both reasons in the block log, an oversight which has now been corrected. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Ok, I will comment on this elsewhere but the clarification was helpful. --BozMo talk 07:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC) As much the same issues were discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Unblock review request and are now at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#ChildofMidnight, and ChildofMidnight has indicated that they are taking a short wikibreak, I move to close this request with no action but no prejudice to opening a similar thread should similar edits continue. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC) Closing risks CoM claiming it as a victory, which isn't a huge problem but perhaps it is possible to "suspend" rather than close. The Arbcom case is not looking specifically at the Climate Change area. If you don't reckon that works I support close as a second choice. --BozMo talk 20:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

IP disruption

Something needs to be done about the disruption being created by the anonymous IP editor "142.x" who was previously discussed in this archive. The individual is currently using the following IP:

• 142.177.158.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

I'd like serious consideration to be given to a range block, since blocking this individual's IP addresses has been ineffective thus far. I have become a favored target, with vandalism of my user talk page and disgraceful personal attacks being the current problem. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I have blocked the current addy, but only for a short while - since they hop addresses, longer is pointless. I suggest you form up an SPI report, and let someone see if there can be an effective rangeblock. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Either that or seek another CU to do the same sort of checks I did. With the assumption of Ombudsmanship, I no longer can run routine CUs so someone else will need to. However,n I stand by what I said before though, I don't think a short range block is that damaging. Yes it loses some IP editing that isn't part of this problem, but not shedfuls. ++Lar: t/c 14:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I tried to get some help at WP:SPI but received none, so I opened this ANI thread, which resulted in week-long range blocks being applied. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Guettarda

Suspend Guettarda has not edited since before I made the proposal. Will take up when they are active again. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd asked Geni about whether this was actionable, who suggested I bring it to this page rather than ask him/her: User_talk:Geni#Is_this_actionable.3F. Over the past 1-2 days (and counting) Guettarda has made repeated allegations of a WP:Canvass violation (w.r.t. a vote in an RFC), and has continued to post more or less unmodified versions of this complaint on various pages despite explications of the policy and requests for diffs. This is disruptive, clutters talkpages, and generally instigates further comments designed to address the concerns raised only to be ignored (i.e., WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT), distracting discussion. Allegations [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] Answers [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] If I'm the one misinterpreting policy here I'd like to be informed. If not, I'd like a request that Guettarda desist in raising this contention outside his/her own talkpage with respect to this particular alleged violation. It's disrupting discussion across these various pages. Thank you. (Guettarda was notified of this request here)--Heyitspeter (talk) 19:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC) Discussion related to Guettarda I invited Guettarda to take this up on ANI, but he did not do so, leading me to think that his allegations are not an honest attempt at dispute resolution. Instead, in my opinion, it appears to be an attempt to bully, intimidate, distract, or delay discussion about an article page move that he does not agree with. By any measure, his behavior is extremely unhelpful. If Guettarda's personal feelings on the subject in question are too strong to allow him to participate in an NPOV and collaborative manner, perhaps he should stay away from that article. Cla68 (talk) 22:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC) I have echoed the request to bring the complaint here, together with a request not to use the term without supporting diffs elsewhere. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC) Thank you. Maybe that's enough, though I see Guettarda making the same problematic edits to this section so I don't know. Whatever works.--Heyitspeter (talk) 04:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC) That is a lot of diffs. Shouldn't be tolerated. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 23:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC) I'm at a loss here. I strongly support the attempts to get agreement for a new name for the article, in the spirit of Ignore all rules, and I'm very impressed that GoRight, who I had initially imagined had been banished from the topic for several months, had reinvented himself as a peacemaker. At the same time. I don't think it's normally a good idea to try this kind of thing. It definitely needs to be justified, and rejustified. I could find myself swayed by Guettarda's arguments, despite my long and heartfelt support for "Ignore all rules." I think Guettarda's opinion that the user talk canvassing was intentionally aimed at swaying talk page discussion is tenable. There was certainly a strong bias to the canvassing, and the usual route of an RFC was avoided (though possibly for defensible reasons). So complaining about a prima facie abuse, even in the face of insistence by the participants that they did not conduct that abuse, is defensible, and we'd have to have strong evidence that Guettarda was trying to cause harm or was reckless in his use of his editing privileges. I don't see that here. I see a dispute about a laudable, but failed, attempt to handle the endless bickering about the article's name. Guettarda's complaints have merit in policy, even if they do not carry the day. In short, dispute resolution is not optional. Selecting a group of supporters, either on or off wiki, and then marshalling them to overwhelm opposition, isn't a very good way to behave. Guettarda is right to highlight the concerns he has here and he does deserve a proper response. --TS 23:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC) So we're clear, there are two different instances where canvassing has been alleged. One is regarding the petition at User_talk:GoRight#CRU_hacking_incident_article_name. This was canvassed by any definition and shouldn't be provided much if any weight in rename discussions. The second is regarding my alleged canvassing for the renaming RfC. For background, there was an RfC asking "Should the article be renamed? If so, what should it be called?" There were lots of respondents to this with varying opinions; a slim majority supported renaming the page but they disagreed on what it should be named. I opened up a new section in the RfC proposing a specific name. I then neutrally notified all of the participants in the previous RfC section regardless of their positions that a new discussion was taking place (sample diff). Not only did Guettarda close the section immediately claiming I had violated the RfC rules (diff) but he has since accused me of inappropriate canvassing at least 10 times despite repeated explanations why what I did was OK and misquoted my statements about the RfC (the latter may be a miscommunication rather than malicious). I invite any uninvolved experienced user to review my conduct and determine whether I have inappropriately canvassed. If anyone including Guettarda believes I have, please open up a section on me here. Otherwise, I ask that Guetterda stops making these accusations and stops attempting to speak for me. Oren0 (talk) 01:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Yes, I do think what was done was defensible. But that doesn't mean we should regard people who (as Guettarda has done) strongly disagree with that position, and state it repeatedly, are doing the wrong thing. In fact until Guettarda pointed it out, I'm now ashamed to admit, I thought nothing but good could come of this, and I still admire those who made the attempt. But no, this attempt to forge union seems to have spread a little more division, and I don't think it's wrong to admit it. The use of talk pages, which is well known. The use (you now say) of a vaguely worded RFC as a stalking horse for a move proposal--all of these strike me as legitimate applications of "Ignore all rules", and laudable at that. Thank you. It's the claim that Guettarda was in the wrong for complaining that I don't agree with. It's always legitimate to raise such concerns. If "Ignore all rules" leads you to ask for another editor to be sanctioned for disagreeing with you, then you've ignored some of the most basic, unignorable rules. We used to refer to such meta-rules, in aggregate, as "Don't be a dick", until some clever-dick realised that all such references were self-defining. --Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 01:44, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Raise the matter, sure, no problem. But how many times, in how many places, before it's considered tendentious, or even disruptive? That's the question in my view. ++Lar: t/c 16:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC) The basic principle that underlies WP:CANVASS is that you shouldn't canvass votes for discussion. The norm is to let interested editors find there way there on their own. WP:CANVASS outlines some exceptions to this idea. One acceptable use, according to WP:CANVASS is to notify "editors who have substantively edited or discussed an article related to the discussion". Who among the "interested" editors weren't notified? Well, lots of people. A list that just so happens to include: User:William M. Connolley User:KimDabelsteinPetersen User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris User:Stephan Schulz User:Tony Sidaway (the #1 editor to the talk page) User:Hipocrite The "article related to the discussion" is the CRU hacking article, not the RFC. People make mistakes, of course. Oren0 may have meant well. But that's beside the point. By selectively leaving out a large number of interested editors, Oren0 created a poll that appeared tainted. And it goes matter of who you notify. Canvasses are also read by other editors. Although the RFC was not listed anywhere, within a couple hours it attracted input from several editors who have never edited either the CRU hacking page or its talk page. Like-minded people read each others talk pages. Favouring one "side" and neglecting the other reverberates beyond the actual pages you edit. Canvassing is never a zero-sum game, even when it's done properly. That's why it's never a good idea. It's not about Oren0's intent. Selective notification taints discussions, especially when (like this one) most of the canvassed editors simply vote and leave. Guettarda (talk) 02:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Remember that I disengaged from that article some time ago when accused of ownership, and more recently I disengaged more overtly for a while, renouncing the entire topic for a couple of weeks that happen to have coincided with this affair, so I can believe that failure to canvass me was appropriate, and even most considerate. But the failure to canvass the other editors listed above, all of them very much reputable editors whose good faith is unimpeachable, is worrying. There is legitimate cause for concern that cannot be wiped away by trying to blame the person who happens to make the complaint. Please understand that I don't think anybody has done anything sanctionable. My only beef is with those who are saying that Guettarda's expression of concern, annoying as it may be, is sanctionable. It ain't. --TS 02:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Oren0 systematically notified every editor who had voted in the attached "Should this article be renamed?" poll regardless of their vote. Additionally, Oren0 added a notification to the parent article's talkpage indicating that the vote was occuring. That page is watched and/or monitored by everyone making significant edits to the article or its talkpage. A move request template was also posted to the talkpage (here) with a link to the vote. This is canvassing, but it's the right kind of canvassing. That's indisputable, and though I'm not surprised you don't know the details (as you aren't actively editing that page), Guettarda does know them because he or she has had them pointed out to him or her repeatedly, and yet he or she still continues to post the same allegations, as shown here, just above us. It's misleading for people who don't follow the page closely (as with you in this case) and it disrupts discussion, cluttering the page.--Heyitspeter (talk) 03:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC) One more thought in passing. It's telling that Heyitspeter bring, among the diffs of my "misbehaviour", my responses to Oren0 and Cla68 on my talk page. It's also telling that it's only when I stopped responding that they chose to escalate. So isn't that a classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation? Guettarda (talk) 02:59, 20 February 2010 (UTC) I thought about leaving those two diffs out (note that we would still be left with eleven diffs), but figured I should keep them as indicating more WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior. That's a valid concern, though. I'm still not sure it was the right decision.--Heyitspeter (talk) 03:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC) (ec) You keep accusing me of engaging in disruptive editing by "refusing to get the point". If you're going to accuse me of that, doesn't someone have to come up with a more convincing argument than "you're wrong"? Isn't the onus on you to explain why a canvass for a page move that leaves out the editors mentioned above, is appropriate, or explain how such a discussion isn't tainted? Guettarda (talk) 03:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC) This is getting really meta. In a thread about your refusal to get the point, you're refusing to get the point, despite its being explained to you (again) in this very section. (I could reasonably add your comments on this request to the request.) Other attempts at addressing your concerns are shown in the sampling of diffs I provided above (and it was just a sampling). I'm going to disengage now because I'm frustrated (I hope not too obviously). I've said all I want to say, administrators can sort out the rest if they see fit.--Heyitspeter (talk) 04:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC) I think it would be fair to remark that Guettarda isn't the only person not getting the point here. I really am not trying to avoid getting it, and I don't get the impression that he is, either. What is the point, exactly? --TS 04:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC) In this case? specifically? Guettarda stated, "If you're going to accuse me of that, doesn't someone have to come up with a more convincing argument than 'you're wrong'?" Arguments have consisted of far more than that, as shown in this talkpage. That is to say, Guettarda's statement (just quoted) is an example of a WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT violation, viz. "refusing to acknowledge others' input or their own error."--Heyitspeter (talk) 04:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC) No. I want you to stop saying that Guettarda isn't getting the point that your argument is that he isn't getting the point. I don't get the point. I want you to explain what the point is. Whatever it is that Guettarda and I are not getting. Explain it. --TS 04:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC) here (repeated)--Heyitspeter (talk) 09:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC) I don't doubt that the editors in question made efforts to contact editors who had an opinion. But it really isn't at all wrong for Guettarda to point out, repeatedly and possibly annoyingly to you, that whoever did it didn't do a very good job of it. As for involvement in the RFC, the thing was so ridiculously vaguely worded that, after a quick glance to confirm that there was no consensus for any one name, my first edit was to close it, and my second was to move it--all 50k of pointless arguing--onto a separate page. How many other people with an opinion simply passed over the mess without comment? We will never know. I do think you all did a great job and I think you acted on good faith, but there are enough problems for me to be doubtful that are only multiplied by this misconceived attempt to sanction somebody who objects to the way you did it. --TS 03:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Tony, please try to stay on topic here. Guettarda sprayed bad-faith accusations of canvassing, because, IMO, he was unhappy about the consensus that developed in the RfC to rename the article, and then a second consensus which developed on the new name. He declined to take his accusations to ANI or to this forum, which are the forums we use to settle editor behavior issues. In other words, he disrupted a content dispute resolution process, videlicet, the RfC and its associated discussion, and has been called on it here. That's it. An admin (LHVU) has agreed that his behavior was problematic and has apparently taken some action and hopefully that will correct the behavior in question. End of story for the moment. Cla68 (talk) 09:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC) I am not advocating for any sort of sanctions against anybody. What I'm asking for is for someone uninvolved to decide whether what I did was OK or not. If it wasn't, explain why. If it was, Guettarda should stop complaining about it. All of these repeated complaints serve to derail and undermine the discussion, and one wonders if that's the point. As for the list of editors above, if they neither participated in the RfC nor saw the multiple messages on the talk page then clearly they weren't interested in participating. Oren0 (talk) 17:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Asking for an evaluation (and elaboration on the opinion given) strikes me as a reasonable request, as at first glance Guettarda's activities certainly do raise eyebrows, but perhaps there is more to it. ObDisclose: Guetterda recently opposed my stewardship reconfirmation, and among other canards, claimed I'm not an uninvolved admin w/r/t AGW. That's nonsense "just, like, his opinion, man", of course, but there you are. ++Lar: t/c 16:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC) Comment by Scjessey I also have repeatedly complained about the canvassing problem, and I referred to the matter as "procedural shenanigans" from the very start. Canvassing should never be used to solicit votes, and RfCs are supposed to seek comments to promote discussion, not votes. I support Guettarda's statements completely about how the "vote" was tainted, so if Guettarda is to receive some sort of sanction for stating the obvious you had better clap me in irons as well. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Comment by slightly involved Wikidemon I don't think we can separate the behavioral / procedural issues from the underlying fact that there is no clear consensus after many attempts to find conensus on what to call the article. My colleague Scjessey probably thinks I'm nuts for saying so, but I think we should just rename the article "Climategate" and be done with it. Nevertheless, we do have to respect that there is good faith disagreement, and underlying that, a lot of reasonable uncertainty, on what the article is about and how to name it. Going about it again and again, in different forums and with different methods, yields different results. I doubt that anyone is intentionally process gaming, that's just a fact of how consensus works. At some point, all the repeated proposals and attempts to discuss the matter become a huge distracting time sink, whether done in IAR fashion or completely according to the rules. Perhaps a brilliant mediator will come along and propose a solution involving sister articles, redirects, and wording in the lede that makes everyone happy. Failing that, I think we just need to accept that we have a provisional article name for now, put a lid on it, and revisit it later rather than in continuous serial fashion. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Comment by LessHeard vanU This has expanded quite a bit since I last looked. I made a proposal at Guettarda's talkpage, upon which I am waiting a response. If the response is agreement, I would be looking to conclude the matter on that basis. I think that this is not about whether WP:CANVASS violations took place, and upon which I have no opinion, but whether it is proper to make those allegations without seeming intent to address the issue. Other editors with similar concerns, and those refuting those concerns, might also consider whether they are prepared to instigate some process to determine the matter, or to let it drop and move forward. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC) Not quite sure what you mean?--Heyitspeter (talk) 23:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC) If G agrees that referring to claims of canvassing without proceeding to resolve the matter was inappropriate, and promises to not repeat the claims outside of such a process, then we can shut up this request. Plus, all other parties might consider doing the same. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC) Ahh, okay. Thanks.--Heyitspeter (talk) 00:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark Nutley (2)

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Marknutley

User requesting enforcement

Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation edit warring despite warnings, and earlier probational restrictions.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [26] first insertion of content
2. [27] first revert
3. [28] second revert
4. [29] third revert

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

The specific sanction that Mark is violating is this: Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement/Archive2#Result_concerning_TheGoodLocust.2C_MarkNutley.2C_WMC, he was informed about the sanctions here [30]

I warned Mark here [31] as well as here [32].

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Enforcement per the earlier probation warning.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

In addition to this is should be mentioned that Mark has previously been edit-warring in contradiction to his (and my) sanctions, which i warned him about here [33]. That previous episode was handled by 2over0 amicably. I've tried to resolve this in private with Mark, by asking him to self-revert - but unfortunately he hasn't been cooperative.

Note: I will be off-line for most of the evening. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:12, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[34]

Other involved party

Stephan Schulz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)[35]

Added by Wikidemon per discussion below - Wikidemon (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Marknutley

Statement by Marknutley

Sorry it`s taken so long to get to this, work has been mental.

I was not edit warring, every edit i made was backed up with ever more ref`s each and every time.

WMC says i am POV pushing, no i am not, the majority of the refs show the MWP was global, from europe to china to new zealand.

Stephen also accuses me of synthesizing, this is untrue as two of the refs used actually state the MWP was a global event. This is not me making connections, it is written in the papers i used as ref`s.

mark nutley (talk) 16:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Statement by WMC

[This is wrong, 'cos I misread the parole. Rather than striking it all I'll just put this here - William M. Connolley (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)]

• [36] and [37] is one violation of the 1RR parole (re-inserts "worldwide", which is but one word but is the substance of discussion).
• [38] is the second violation of the parole.
• [39] is the third.

Why isn't this an open-and-shut case? Three violations of the parole and an explicit rejection of warnings:

• You are aware that this is a breach of the probationary restrictions that we are under - correct? And that the consequences may be a 1RR permanent restriction for you? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Yes, however i do not believe i am edit warring. If you feel otherwise you know what to do :) See you on the RFE board mark nutley (talk) 15:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't look like MN is prepared to listen to "friendly warnings".

William M. Connolley (talk) 20:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You said that the editor continued "despite" and in "explicit rejection" of warnings. Where are those warnings? The two you mention were done after the last revert. Given that, and the fact that the person giving the warnings is a non-admin and an involved party, I think it would be useful for an uninvolved administrator to formally endorse / repeat that warning before taking any action. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

A note on the substance: MN has been been engaging is tendentious discussion on the talk page, asserting that http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm is a RS. It blantantly is unreliable. Comments like Not according to the ref`s i just used to rewrite the lead, it was global the proof is there, it is pointless to deny it are unhelpful; MN is blantantly POV pushing William M. Connolley (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Everyone has their POV. It looks like a legitimate good faith argument to me. Whether it is a correct argument is a content matter, and should be met with courteous discussion on the article talk page, not behavioral complaints. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

@WMC AFAIK MN is not on a 1RR parole, or if he is then it isn't what is linked to above? --BozMo talk 20:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, he is not, though barely not. Marknutley is warned that further participation in any edit war in the probation area will lead to a one-revert restriction or similar sanctions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I agree: apologies. Only TGL and I are. So, given that this *is* clear participation on an edit war, the obvious santiocn is to put him onto 1RR, as per the parole, yes? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

@LHVU: fine by me (not often you hear that, worth it for the novelty alone :-) though of course I'm not in charge here William M. Connolley (talk) 21:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Marknutley

If this is to result in any sanction, Steven Schulz will have to suffer the same fate since he is just as guilty of edit waring. 1st revert, 2nd revert, 3rd Revert Arzel (talk) 16:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, as far as i can tell, Stephan isn't under special probation like Mark and I are. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

So he has a licence to edit war? I sorry, but it is this kind of crap that makes people believe there is a double standard with regards to these articles. His actions we no less egregious than MN from a purely reverting point of view. Arzel (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you reduce everything to spelling, The Communist Manifesto is as correct as On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies. Fact is that Mark has been reverted by several editors by now. He is trying to insert scientific nonsense, originally sourced to a self-published skeptic web site, then by synthesizing several sources, none of which supported his edit, and which did not even support it collectively. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

"Fact is that Mark has been reverted by several editors by now" maybe BUT during the actual sequence of reverts listed above the only other editor who reverted him said it was specifically for a wording error which Mark simply corrected after agreement on talk. So aside the probation thing (and of course the question of who has right on their side) it was a pretty even handed dispute. Since two or three other editors have sided with you but perhaps you should have waited for them to arrive first (in an ideal world). --BozMo talk 19:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)j

If the sanctions are going to mean anything we have to enforce the restriction on edit warring. Edit warring by both sides is wrong, but per WP:BRD and WP:BURDEN, as the proposer of new content it's Marknutley's responsibility to gain consensus if his change is disputed in good faith. Nevertheless, this is a flawed report in that the warning came after, not before, the last revert shown. Asking that he self-revert or face a report / sanctions is a little heavy handed. I would suggest a caution to both parties, and a warning to take it to the talk page rather than continue reverting, or face blocks on either / both sides. I have no opinion and admittedly no background to judge whose version seems better supported, but that's besides the point as long as one side is not clearly vandalism, bad faith, copyvio, against a firm longstanding consensus, or any of the other edit warring excuses. We may have the "wrong version" in place, but that's the nature of the process. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, noting the "mitigating circumstances" BozMo describes below.[40] Although approaching the line and perhaps being too aggressive, I think this is worth a friendly caution at best. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikidemon, your point about 'a firm longstanding consensus' above has weight - even back in 2004, there was no doubt in this article about the non-worldwide aspects of the subject. The statement had migrated into the first few sentences by July 2005 and, as far as I can see has been there ever since. To anyone with any knowledge in this area of science, there has been no doubt about this for a decade. In know we're not here to debate content or facts, but this degree of background provides some context. This isn't a 50/50 argument. --Nigelj (talk) 21:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Erm? How is this a flawed report? Both Mark and I are under strict orders/warnings against edit-warring, that was the result of WP:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement/Archive2#Result_concerning_TheGoodLocust.2C_MarkNutley.2C_WMC. I used rather a long time trying to persuade Mark to self-revert his last edit, so that he wouldn't be violating the probationary sanction (it is linked above). I only filed this when Mark's reply was: If you feel otherwise you know what to do :) See you on the RFE board, which to me states 2 things: 1) Mark is well aware of the restriction 2) He doesn't care - since he is enforcing his version of WP:TRUTH (and thus cannot be edit-warring). I would also like to note that in the case where Mark and I where put on "parole", we were both actively talking, and none of us were above 2RR - so it is rather clear that both of us know what edit-warring is. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It should also be noted, despite the fact that i believe that this is one case where the content issue is minimal, since both Mark and I are under strict orders not to editwar, that while the last section on the talk-page seems as if the content hasn't been discussed, it was already discussed in Talk:Medieval_Warm_Period#Proposed_article_update, which Mark initialized, so Mark, wasn't unaware of the lack of consensus for his addition - and the problem with his sourcing (which is basically original research, by cherry-picking sources, that are in contradiction to the article text and later references by the same authors) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

'Comment regarding Lar's "expand 1RR whenever someone clashes" proposal. Interesting..... So that means that instead of playing nice, and not edit-warring - i should keep my peace until at some point i can use edit-warring as a WMD, by engaging someone whom i do not like, and ensure that they will also be restricted. Hmmmm, seems to me to be a rather strange proposal. Please do check the facts: Mark was editwarring despite warnings, despite previous talk-page discussions, he still doesn't accept that he was edit-warring, since apparently he holds the WP:TRUTH. Mark is/was on 3RR - Stephan despite claims above is at 2RR (one revert per day btw.) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

You could look at it that way, if trying to look at things in the most combative way possible was your intent, or you could look at it as an attempt to level the playing field. 2RR is 2RR too many. ++Lar: t/c

Doesn't that depend on content? Mark is trying to insert something that is actually contradicted by the references in the text. He is concocting a synthesis of references... by cherry-picking references that go back to the early 90's, he ends up with a conclusion that is in opposition to what the same scientists conclude later. And btw. i'm not trying to look at it combatively - as i said to Mark in talk, i could have "won" that particular edit-war by 1RR, but i didn't, and i won't... it was already an edit-war by Mark, and i am going to stick to not to engage in such, if i recognize it as such .... no matter how correct or incorrect the content issue is, and i am going to hold to that.

There are to my eyes three things that make this case rather clear-cut (to my eyes). The first is that Mark and I are under special warning not to edit-war (no matter what the content is), the second is that Mark already had done so and been warned for it (on the IPCC page (see my links), and the third is that Mark ignored well-meant advice on this, and in fact is convinced that because he knows the WP:TRUTH he can't be edit-warring. If you are going to make "preemptive" strikes - then make the 1RR restriction for all articles and all editors. I'd support it 100% - and as far as i can tell, most of us do. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I could support 1RR for articles on probation (usual exceptions) but I would want to include an exception for someone new to the page. If they haven't edited since the page went on probation, it is unreasonable to assume they know different rules apply. As soon as they are warned, the rule can apply.--SPhilbrickT 19:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments Re. Lar's suggestion

I find no more polite way to to say it, but "I think it's come to that, but failing that I think whenever we have a situation of someone ON 1RR engaged with someone who isn't and it's brought here, we ought to consider extending the 1RR to whoever it is that isn't (in the interests of leveling the field)" has to be the stupidest thing somebody has said in this discussion for a long time. I can hardly imagine a better way of reducing Wikipedia's quality than to "level the playing field" between uninformed and already sanction POV pushers and scientifically literate editors in good standing. If you hand out sanctions indiscriminately, the best possible outcome is that you loose all the more experienced editors and get left with socks and single-purpose accounts. "The Romans make a dessert and call it peace" - let's not forget the ultimate purpose here: To create a good encyclopedia that reflects the best published sources. Everything else is secondary. Civility is only important because it furthers that goal. Making new editors feel welcome is only important in so far as it furthers that goal. ---Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I really don't understand this "level the playing field" proposal either. To my mind, it exposes how utterly retarded the 1RR approach is. Essentially, it rewards troublemakers (who are now legion, thanks to off-wiki recruitment) by hamstringing good faith contributors. Wikipedia needs editors who are experienced (and often experts in the topic in which they edit) more than in needs troublemakers. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Aside from the above language, which I think skates pretty close to what shouldn't be accepted here, I tend to agree that 1RR all around may not be the best approach. It seems to me that 1RR should be applied to editors when they misuse the discretion that editors are given as a default. This way overly combative editors are limited, but editors who show discretion can have a little more leeway. They shouldn't have much more leeway, but I think a little more in situations like this where there is a lot of socking going on is warranted. Mackan79 (talk) 23:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Stephan, could you clarify what you are saying? Are you saying the Mr. nutley is a "uninformed and already sanction POV pushers" while you, in contrast, are a "scientifically literate editors in good standing"? Am I correct in that this is what you are asserting? Cla68 (talk) 00:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't add up. The fact is you can't say "this revert replaced superior content, therefore it was ok." If we said that, then it wouldn't be about revert rules in the first place; we would simply decide who writes better content and kick out whoever annoyed them ("You've been blocked for lowering the quality of this article. You can appeal this block by stating why your edits were an improvement.") Ultimately it has to be about editors' ability to comply with policy (if we're not content just to assume that more editors will support the better content). I guess you can say to hell with consistency if a sham system works, but a.) that will widely be considered unethical, and b.) it therefore probably won't work very well. You want to avoid sanctioning good editors, but to some extent it takes convincing them that they need to play within the system. Mackan79 (talk) 07:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

It does appear that Mr. Schulz is saying that some editors are better or "more equal" than others here in the wiki. I hope he will be coming by here soon and stating clearly that he is not alleging that and that he is committed to the Wikipedia principles of cooperation, collaboration, and compromise. Cla68 (talk) 07:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• On the real life planet where I live, with its admittedly antiquated university system, it is indeed the case that different inhabitants of the planet (some of whom contribute to the writing of this online encyclopedia) have different levels of intelligence, different levels of training in science and different aptitudes for understanding science. Wikipedia principles will alas not change that. Nor is it a secret that there are expert editors on wikipedia. Surely Cla68 is vaguely aware of that? Mathsci (talk) 08:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

So maybe we should say that on science articles, science experts are given two reverts to others' one. I'd be fine with that where the experts could all be documented as such, although, come to think of it, it would probably be better then not to let the rest of us edit at all. We might have to change the name.... Mackan79 (talk) 08:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

More significantly, on science articles we should comply with undue weight policy, and not give undue prominence to fringe positions being persistently pushed by some editors. There seems to be an unfortunate idea that by labelling a science article "controversy about this science subject" then fringe views should be given priority, without any evaluation of the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy of the sources. . . dave souza, talk 09:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

That's specious. Unit 731 was a scientific endeavor. This does not mean that scientists are uniquely qualified to comment on the controversy surrounding it.--Heyitspeter (talk) 09:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Nor does it mean that Wikipedia has any obligation to show every contrarian fringe theory about it. The controversy should be sourced to reliable historians, not to polemics written by campaigners, though they can be cited for their own views if reliable third party sources show them to be historically significant. . . dave souza, talk 10:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
And, indeed, that article is about a breach of scientific and medical ethics which scientists and doctors would have more training and knowledge in than unqualified newspaper columnists. . . dave souza, talk 10:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• I was talking on the general principle of Lar's statement, not on the concrete case. However, it is certainly true that while all editors have an equal opportunity to contribute, not all editors and not all contributions are equal, and not all editors should be treated equal. If it were otherwise, we could just block all editors (so they are all equal to User:Licorne). In particular, sanctioning editors who are in a dispute with already sanctioned editors to "level the playing field" without looking at the substance of the conflict is, and I'll (not gladly, but freely) repeat this, a stupid idea. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'm ok with you thinking it's a stupid idea. That doesn't mean that it actually is. ++Lar: t/c 16:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Lar is wrong, obviously. Stephan is correct William M. Connolley (talk) 08:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps we could just nominate Napoleon and Snowball to decide who amongst us is more equal than the others. Or maybe Stephan and William would suffice. Scottaka UnitAnode 10:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I see no policy that those infringing policies should be treated equally with others, but do note that WP:NOTANARCHY. . . dave souza, talk 10:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Stephan, I propose that all editors are treated equally, unless the issue at hand is a violation of Wikipedia's rules, such as revert warring and POV-pushing. As Mackan points out above, this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and I believe the assumption is that everyone should have equal opportunity to do so unless they're breaking the rules. You seem to be saying that your contributions are more valuable than other editors who have been sanctioned under the AGW article probation, and therefore you don't deserve sanction even though you have been caught engaging in the same behavior for which the others were sanctioned. Is that what you're saying? Cla68 (talk) 12:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Cla, this shows up the problem with BozMo's point "(2) he added more references each time and sought to address the arguments raised". Looking at the three edits Stephan reverted, in the first instance Marknutley changed the lead on a scientific article to a minority view, adding a reference to the website of the fringe non-scientist John Lawrence Daly,[41] in the second he did not add a new source but argued Daly was a reliable source,[42] and in the third case did add references in a synthesis to reach the same fringe position. Blatant pov pushing contravening undue weight, and you seem to want to "level the playing field" to favour fringe pov pushing changes to a science article. NPOV is a basic rule. . dave souza, talk 12:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Right dave, i`m pissed off with your the constant lie about this being wp:synth. As i pointed out in my statement above two of the refs state the MWP was GLOBAL. So stop pushing the line about synthesis ok GLACIAL GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE MEDIEVAL WARM PERIOD and The Medieval warm period mark nutley (talk) 13:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow i was wrong three of the refs said it was global Glacial geological evidence for the medieval warm period still going to stick with your spin about synth? mark nutley (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark, content issues belong on the article talk-page. But you may still want to ponder the difference between "global event" and "global warm event". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I know content issues belong on the article talk page kim, but if dave peddles his spin about wp:synth i kinda have to point out he is flat out wrong mark nutley (talk) 14:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark, you really don't seem to understand that synthesis requires you to reflect sources accurately, and not combine them to reach a novel conclusion. You were edit warring for the lead that "The Medieval Warm Period (MWP) or Medieval Climate Optimum was a time of Worldwide warm climate,"[43] yet your references say nothing so definite. The first and third are the same 1993 paper by Grove and Switsur, which "hypothesised" that "The results suggest that it was a global event". Your second reference, p. 134 of a 1994 book by Hughes and Diaz, describes the Grove and Switsur argument, but concludes on pages 136–7 that the evidence "does not constitute compelling evidence for a global 'Medieval Warm Period'" and the concept "is no longer supported by the available evidence." Classic synthesis, advancing a position not supported by the sources. I'm sure your edit was a mistake rather than intentional pov pushing and quote mining was inadvertent, due to carelessness rather than design. I do take exception to your personal attack, calling me a liar, and expect you to strike that immediately. (thanks for striking the accusation) . . dave souza, talk 17:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC) unsolicited clarification, and thanks for action taken. . dave souza, talk 21:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Will i bollocks, Now you accuse me of POV pushing and quote mining because i am careless, am i fuck as like. The paper by mann et al, currently used in the article is also a hypothesis right? perhaps we should remove that, after all a few trees in yamal can`t really be enough to declare it was just confined to the NA can it? If i find sources which say this was a global event then they are just as good as the current sources, get over it mark nutley (talk) 17:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't you realise that WP:WEIGHT requires us to show well sourced viewpoints proportionately to their predominance in the expert literature? If there are significant minority opinions, we show them as such, but we don't overturn current science with a tentative 1993 paper. . . dave souza, talk 18:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec)With respect, I think the points here would be clearer if there was an attempt to tone them down. I don't know that this is synthesis, but it does seem to me an overly strong statement based on the sources if Souza's summary is correct, whereas I notice that the competing language does note that it "may" have been broader.[44] Is there a focused discussion on this issue on the talk page? When it comes to enforcement I think that's the kind of thing that should matter. Mackan79 (talk) 18:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's the talk page. An accurate summary based on the above sources would be that a global warm period has been hypothesised, but the evidence is not strong and there could have been local warm events at various times. That's just based on these sources, and more modern sources are cited in the article. The current state of the article isn't satisfactory, my hope would be that it could be improved to show the current state of scientific ideas more clearly, with a more cooperative approach on the talk page to reflecting majority as well as minority views, . . dave souza, talk 19:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess it's a lot to ask, but I was just hoping I'd look and see a very clear refutation of one position or the other. I see some of that from Stephan Schulz, but mostly I see curt and dismissive retorts going back and forth. It would be nice if one could convince editors that it's worth their time to clearly explain their stances so that they might actually resolve some of these disputes, at least for a time. I don't know if there's more to this, anyway, but I would say in that particular discussion mark nutley isn't representing his views especially well to have kept reverting. Mackan79 (talk) 22:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yup, don't think it was ideal. Unfortunately, mark seems to have been convinced of The Truth and given the bad advice that all sources are equal if they are published by a reputable publisher, no matter whether or not the author has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. You're right that the focus should be on explaining as much as possible. Unfortunately some editors don't want to hear about weight, so it's a learning process. . . . dave souza, talk 22:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Question about content

Perhaps others see it differently, but it seems to me that if someone presented a clear analysis of how one or another editor was adding material that clearly misrepresented the source, or clearly went beyond the source, and kept inserting it despite this being explained clearly by other editors in a fully reasonable manner, that it would be grounds for sanctioning the offending editor without having to focus only on who reverted how many times. Basically, if it is quite easy to show that one editor's position is completely unreasonable based on the given sources, but they keep reverting, I think others here would respond to that. I believe it's under the presumption that there are reasonable views on both sides that we would generally say editors should not be reverting. Personally I don't respond to the idea that one person is an expert and the other isn't, for several reasons, but I would respond to clear evidence that someone is not doing an adequate job with the sources. Perhaps some feel that issues of content shouldn't be raised here, but I'd like to suggest that if done very clearly and succinctly, focusing on evidence that discussion was not working, it could be persuasive and useful. Mackan79 (talk) 18:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Personally I don't respond to the idea that one person is an expert and the other isn't - curious. In the real world, the concept of "expert" is widely recognised. People go to "experts" to have their medical conditions treated, for example William M. Connolley (talk) 22:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but in the "real world" the experts would be chosen via a deliberative process, and certainly the public wouldn't be involved. The issue isn't that the public knows as well as experts, but simply that Wikipedia isn't set up to be expert-controlled. It has its strong points, nonetheless. But of course experts should be in a strong position to explain to competent non-experts why someone is simply not doing an adequate job of editing in the area, which is one of the many reasons expertise is needed. Mackan79 (talk) 22:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The difficulty in this area is that mainstream media are convincing many editors that all scientists have been caught lying and The Truth comes from contrarian bloggers. Too many non-experts are incompetent and won't listen. Disclaimer – I'm not an expert, and make no claim to competence but I will listen and investigate. . . dave souza, talk 22:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You may not be an expert in climate science, but you might be an expert in spotting incompetence :) -- Scjessey (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Response to Lar's 1RR confusion

The sanction that both Mark and I are under is this: Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement/Archive2#Result_concerning_TheGoodLocust.2C_MarkNutley.2C_WMC, it should be clearly marked in my filing for enforcement - which i assume is being read in full? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 08:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment to LHvU Stephan is to my knowledge not under any warning that further editwarring would result in 1RR.[striken, was corrected by LHvU from Stephan => KDP]
Further, your "gaming" comment here seems to ignore that a status-quo/prev-consensus version always does exist, and that the onus of gaining consensus lies on the contributer of new content. Had the roles been reversed - Stephan trying to push content, and Mark reverting to SQ/pC - then your comment would have some merit (my 2¢ on this), otherwise you end up with reverse "gaming", by the person already under restrictions (as i pointed out to Lar). Please note that the reason that i'm persistent here is that Marks and my restrictions are the same, and thus this particular discussion has direct relevance to my own situation, by setting precedence as to what is and what isn't part of the expanded probation enforcement warning that we both got --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 10:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarification. See below... I'm proposing that as a result of this enforcement action, MN be taken to the next level (which in MN's case I think means from: warning that the next infraction means he's on 1RR, to: actually being on 1RR) and that other participants also be taken to the next level (which in the case of SS I think is from: general abjuration to play nice to: warning that the next infraction means he's on 1RR)... If I have people's levels wrong I'm subject to correction of course, but that's the general idea. All participants ratchet up. Which levels the playing field in the long run. ++Lar: t/c 16:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

If you think that three edits over a period of 3 three days, two removing an acknowledged bad source (with a descriptive edit summary) and the third removing unqualified OR, all supported by a discussion on talk that started before the first of my reverts, constitute "edit warring", we have very different definitions of edit warring, and you seems to be very selectively eager to enforce yours. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that last bit is an unhelpful comment. ++Lar: t/c 16:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Response(s) by LHvU (not part of "Result" consideration)

To KDP; This seems part of the dichotomy of having two apparently sometimes conflicting policies - WP:BRD and WP:3RR. The latter should not need exist were the former strictly adhered to, but there seems to be this dispensation allowed for "editors in good standing" to edit war in good faith for a bit before trying to see if there can be a consensus. Reverting (either within BRD or 3RR) to the previous version because it "had consensus" is not always sufficient, references to policy or related discussion is preferable. It is the use of ones ability to revert under 3RR, when the other disputant is under restriction, without further explanation or rationale that gives the appearance of "gaming" the situation. In your case, thoughtful/nuanced edit summaries indicating why you are reverting someone again, regardless whether they are under a restriction or not, may preclude you from being restricted under the existing warning. As long as you can show you are not "warring", then you are permitted some reverts. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

But that doesn't scan with the case where Mark and I were warned/enforcement restricted. Nor does it scan with the comments in the admin section for this case. Nb: Please check and verify the talk-page for MWP for the content issue - while it seems as if this hasn't been discussed, there are previous discussions (with Mark) on exactly the same issue. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:52, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean this kim? [45] were both yourself and short brigade harvester agreed the MWP was global? mark nutley (talk) 12:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark, this is not the place for content issues. But you may want to ponder whether agreeing that the MWP was a global event, is the same as saying that the MWP was a global warm event. The trouble is that you are missing the nuances. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I have amended my comments in the admin section, to better reflect my views above. Does this suffice? As for the specifics of the TGL/WMC case, I didn't comment on the particulars then since, as I noted, I came late to the matter. Upon review, I note that BozMo states we deal with matters on a case by case basis - and I agree that if an admin feels the current case is served best in a manner which ignores or modifies a part of an earlier decision, then they should advance that proposal. As said, WP is not a court of law where precedence forms part of a legal framework - and while it is useful in consistent application of sanctions and restrictions the nature of a Wiki is that as soon as something that indicates a better way of doing things appears then we are at liberty to try that option. The previous conclusion still applies to that matter, but might not hold us to the next (although it may be decided that it will in a subsequent matter). It does make things complicated, I realise, but perhaps if everyone edited to the idealised ethos of WP we would not need to tie ourselves into these knots? LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

New problem: serious incivility

The problems with this editor just jumped up an order of magnitude. Please note these edit summaries:

• "piss off"
• "stop editing my post you twat"
• "and again piss off"
• "moron"
• "still being a moron"
• "stop editing my fucking post you shit"

I recommend an immediate block. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, i see you don`t bother to say why i got angry? If my post had not been edited and when i reverted with "do not edit another users posts" only to have my post edited again, and again, and again even when hippocrite is told to stop editing my posts mark nutley (talk) 19:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no possible excuse for that kind of behavior. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a brief note that Mark has now apologized for his outburst after what he felt was a provocation. Perhaps a review of of Scjessey's own mental state in that same thread ([46] and [47]) would be in order? --GoRight (talk) 19:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You have to be kidding, right? The diffs you present against me are perfectly acceptable. I suggest you are trying to deflect criticism of Mark's egregious behavior by attacking me instead. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hang on a minute, this is being dealt with [here] so why is it also being brought up here? mark nutley (talk) 20:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Because this is the appropriate place for it, and because I was already deep in the processes of compiling the diffs before I noticed (and added) the Wikiquette alert. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

If he had not kept messing with my post for no reason other than "I don`t like that blog" then this would not have happened. Especially after i had requested him not to. mark nutley (talk) 20:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

NOTICE: This notice provided as a service for those who may have missed my previous attempts to close this section. Please note that this section is off topic with respect to this enforcement request, as such it violates this request, and that Scjessey is willing to edit war over it. Please take this into account and take whatever actions you deem appropriate under these circumstances. --GoRight (talk) 20:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

In your opinion. I interpret it differently. Plus you made 1 attempt, so my 1 revert is hardly "edit warring". It's not clear why you have felt the need to insert yourself into this discussion anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

My interest is simple. I saw that Mark was heading in a bad direction, I told him so on his talk page, as a result he apologized which was the right thing to do, and so I think that should be the end of it. Hence my note above about the apology and my subsequent attempt to close this section. --GoRight (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are attempting to close this section, but you should not be. No-one views you as neutral in this. Leave closing, or not, to the neutral admins William M. Connolley (talk) 21:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Both parties blocked, per my rationale at Result concerning Marknultey and Hipocrite blog post dispute at Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident. Since the incivility was dealt with a WP:WQA I feel that aspect may be closed - brickbats and buckets of flour regarding my actions regarding the revert war may be thrown there. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

(as nonadmin) I commend you for taking action, and certainly think this was something blockable... or turning it around, that both editors need a cool down. Best if they can self-administer their own cup of tea. I'm wondering if it's a little stale, though - how long has it been since the last objectionable edits? Oh, well. I think if either or both say they're over it and won't resume, there shouldn't be any problem with unblocking. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Although not supported by policy, I think sometimes it is appropriate to use blocks for punitive reasons, rather than just for prevention. The goal, of course, is to correct the behavior of the editors in question, which I guess then makes the block preventative, doesn't it? Cla68 (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Even if the matter is stale, a block is preventative because the parties will realise that violations will be sanctioned and not be deprecated by the passage of time - thus providing a reason not to do it next time. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Marknutley

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Hmm. There are a lot of mitigating circumstances (1) it was over a few days (2) he added more references each time and sought to address the arguments raised (3) he was on talk (4) one of the reinsertions appeared to follow agreement by the person on talk who had reverted him, since the reason given was only ambiguity. --BozMo talk 19:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Would it be sufficient to place him on the same 1RR limitation, as previously warned, as other editors are already under? WMC appears to think this would be appropriate, and I consider it fairer to keep those who are in dispute with editors already under restriction to the same prohibitions - without necessarily determining who is the more wronged. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Please forgive the naive comment, but shouldn't everyone be on 1RR (per article, or at least per specific content passage)? Why don't we just ask that of everyone who has been properly notified? - Wikidemon (talk) 00:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Personally I would support blanket 1RR for all articles on probation, with the usual exemption for obvious vandalism, bad faith, socks. --BozMo talk 14:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it's come to that, but failing that I think whenever we have a situation of someone ON 1RR engaged with someone who isn't and it's brought here, we ought to consider extending the 1RR to whoever it is that isn't (in the interests of leveling the field). In this case, Steven Schulz probably should be added, if we don't go to a blanket 1RR. ++Lar: t/c 16:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

@Lar. AFAIK neither were on 1RR. --BozMo talk 19:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark Nutley wasn't on 1RR? I'm confused by what KDP is saying in the case presentation, then. There seems to be an assertion that they were. ++Lar: t/c 05:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

He is under warning that further edit warring would result in 1RR - same as with KDP - per here . LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Then I revise my suggestion.... look at all the participants in this war. Then, take MN (and whoever else was warring that was warned alrady) to 1RR and take whoever was warring who HASN'T been warned already to "you've been warned, next time it's 1RR" state. ++Lar: t/c 16:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Only MN of those warned (i.e. not KDP) was edit warring, so I think my proposed wording - including bringing new accounts up to speed promptly - satisfies your suggestion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Or.. We could simply rewrite WP:3RR... I don't think we can, per WP:AGF, place anyone under the 1RR limitation without an evidenced complaint that they have edit warred - but if that complaint does indicate that they warred with someone who is already restricted then they get the same restriction by default; even with the best AGF over intent, using your own ability to simply revert when the other party cannot appears as gaming the system. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I am withdrawing from this one: basically I don't have time to look at Nutley's behaviour properly. --BozMo talk 13:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Proposed wording Until 2010-(date)-03 Marknutley is restricted from making more than one revert to any article in the probation area in any 24 hour period. All current and past editors of the articles under prohibition and not under restriction are advised that any further edit warring will result in the imposition of a similar restriction. New editors found to be edit warring are to be warned of this restriction as soon as possible.
  I prefer dealing with the named individuals in a request for enforcement, and am only willing to expand it generally to others. If there is another account that is felt to be also needing enforcement, then there should be a further request. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note re "edit warring" and 3RR - my view that blind or reflex reverting is edit warring, whereas a revert with a good rationale noting policy or consensus is permissible - although it is recognised even this AGF interpretation can be abused. If found so, then it is edit warring. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I strongly support including analysis of talkpage and other discussions in any examination of edit warring. A 3 month 1RR restriction across the probation area for Marknutley is warranted in this case. I am not sure about the phrasing of the rest of the proposed close - do we intend to make a 1RR restriction the standard response to edit warring (absent mitigating or exacerbating circumstances), or is there something more here? - 2/0 (cont.) 07:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Defaulting to 1RR restriction in the advent of further edit warring by the editor concerned is my intent, mostly to discourage reflex reverting of any party who is already restricted (because sanctions are preventative and not punishment, so we are not here to allow "naughty" editors to be reverted with impunity) but to require properly rationalised reverts for those not restricted. By limiting the opportunity to "edit war, even in good faith," it might be hoped that editors will attempt further discussion before changing the text again. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Marknultey and Hipocrite blog post dispute at Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident

Both editors blocked 24 hours. Hipocrite for part removing/replacing another editors talkpage comments, in violation of WP:TPOC, without permission, notice to the other editor, or discussion/consensus. Fuller rationale provided with block notice at editors talkpage. Marknutley for edit warring on the same issue, while aware they are imminently to be placed under 1RR restriction for the same issue. I consider my actions appropriate under the provisions of the Probation, but will not contest any other admin amending or reversing them - I only request that both parties be dealt with equally in this instance. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note, both editors subsequently unblocked by reviewing admin per Hipocrites appeal and various undertakings given. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning William M. Connolley

User requesting enforcement

Cla68 (talk) 09:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [48] personal attack in an AGW article talk page discussion

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. [49] [50] Warning by 2over0
2. [51] Warning by LessHeard vanU
3. [52] Reminder to be civil by Cla68 (not an admin)
4. [53] Reminder to be civil by Enric Naval (not an admin)
5. [54] Request to be more civil by Thegoodlocust (not an admin)
6. [55] Request to be more civil by Prodego
7. [56] Request to be more civil by Tony Sideaway (not an admin)
8. [57] Request to be more civil by Nsaa (not an admin)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Whatever admin action will correct the behavior in question.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

WMC has been asked to strike the comment in question, but has refused. I listed all of the diffs in the "prior warnings" section above to show that William M. Connolley (WMC) has a problem with following the civility policy. Those warnings and requests above are only for the last two months. I expect that if I was to go further back in his talk page history, I would find a similar pattern repeating itself.

Besides the recent PA by WMC that made me decide to bring this to admin attention, WMC has personalized other talk page discussions recently [58] and [59]. To state the obvious, personalizing talk page discussions and denigrating other editors is against our civility policy. The reason we have that policy is to facilitate collaboration, cooperation, and compromise, which is how a wiki is supposed to work. WMC's inability or unwillingness to follow this policy is unfortunate, as it causes uneccessary hostility in article talk page discussions and inhibits collaboration. I didn't react to his baiting on the Lawrence Solomon page, but I found that comment, and other similar personal comments that he makes about me and others, extremely counterproductive. Cla68 (talk) 09:16, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning William M. Connolley

Statement by William M. Connolley

This action is ill-conceived. The problem is ZP5; I think you should learn to make coherent valuable content edits is valuable advice, which he (and indeed other people watching here) should ponder. A glance at ZP5's contributions shows a *total* (and I really do mean total) absence of useful article-space Cl Ch contributions from ZP5, but an awful lot of barely coherent talk page chatter.

In fact, even anyone can find even *one* unambiguously valuable climate-change related article space contribution by ZP5 (even something as trivial as reverting vandalism) I'll be happy to strike my comment.

William M. Connolley (talk) 09:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: I've just noticed some more weirdness in Cla's statement: I didn't react is a link to... Cla reacting. Shurely Shome Mishtake? But that comment by Cla is instructive: it shows how a perfectly good-faith edit can be mistakenly inperreted as baiting. Look at the context: LS complains about his bean business being mentioned. AH says it is embarassing (why? don't know; never mind) and Cla says the only source for is is LS. I agree; the only source *is* LS. So what? Is LS not a RS about his own activities? Perhaps not. But for Cla to interpret my comment as "personalising" the issue is very odd indeed. Note also taht Cla is double-counting in an effort to get the "bad comment" count up; he has linked to that twice. Similar comments reply to his other "personalising" diff [60] William M. Connolley (talk) 09:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

@ZP5: was there something about User:William M. Connolley/For me/RFC-ZP5 that you found offensive? William M. Connolley (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

@World: if you're interested in gobbledegook, try User:ZuluPapa5/WMC-RFC

Statement by ZP5*

WMC has chosen to add further injury to insult. Normally, I would gladly accept a simple apology in suffice to avoid this specific PA enforcement request. (Even after many others have confirmed prior PA toward me my by this editor, in an wiki etiquette complaint and with WMC talk page warnings). My talk page and block log are littered with the examples of this editor's attempt to collaborate by waring. Any attempt, I make at contribution to the Climate Change articles is quickly reverted and then the talk pages turn into bickering with PA. It's called POV ownership obstruction. This whole General Sanction was created because of this indignant reverting behavior by WMC and team. It's a distraction and has the unnecessary effect of prohibiting content creation. I said elsewhere it's time to consider ZERO RR sanction for this editor. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Post note ... I welcome constructive criticism on my article contributions elsewhere. This is not the place right now. Thanks Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Prior WP:WQA complaint on WMC's PA toward me. Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts/archive77#Personal_attack_advice suggestion was STUCK. Use ANI or RfC/U. This forum is the equivalent. It should stay here, unless an RFC on the editor is in order. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• @Admins - Thanks for tagging the inappropriate talk. What is relevant here is where WP:NPA says " Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to blocks." I perhaps could have responded better to the PA myself and have considered correction. However, how many times does WMC talk with PA have to be disruptive to be actionable? Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley

• Cla68's complaint seems without merit and not the correct way to use this noticeboard. Cla68 must surely be aware that there have been numerous requests on this page concerning WMC, many of which have been dismissed. Why did he use the language "proverbial straw" in discussions with ZuluPapa5? [61] Mathsci (talk) 09:49, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• The complaint most certainly is the correct use of this noticeboard. It is a specific issue with diffs to support it. It may be that no action is taken but that should not be used to stifle debate. Weakopedia (talk) 10:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• See below. I agree this is an apppropriate use of this noticeboard, and the complaint has enough merit to bear investigation. Cla68 does not bring matters up frivolously. ++Lar: t/c 15:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with what you write about Cla68, who does seem to have a POV in the content dispute underlying this request and is acting as some kind of enabler of Zulu Papa 5 ☆. That seems to be what other administrators below have written. I hope that you'll bear this in mind in the future. Your outspoken comments in the section below indicate that you have currently formed too strong a personal point of view - where minor failings in conduct are placed above matters of content - to help in administrating this page. Sorry, but that's how it looks. Mathsci (talk) 22:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

And I disagree with you that this is about content, at all. It's about conduct. Nor is it correct that I've formed a personal point of view, other than a distaste for gaming tactics, as employed by all sides. I think you may be the person who is too close here. ++Lar: t/c 03:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "too close", since I don't edit remotely near this area. I agree that there are problems on all sides (unreasonable POV-pushing resulting in low level incivility). I think that the cautious discussion you've started with Atama, MastCell, et al, is clearly the right way to go.

I also think that what Zulu Papa 5 ☆ has written below about WMC goes way over the line ("dirty hands", "WMC makes Wikipedia weaker", etc). I assume Cla68 will distance himself from these personal attacks, which cannot be described as either low level or borderline.Mathsci (talk) 05:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• As I advised WMC, his reply to Zulu Papa 5 ☆ was inappropriate. It was badly phrased and lacked supporting evidence, and did not allow for the possibility that ZP5 makes useful contributions to other areas ZP5 edits. Having said that, dealing with ZP5's persistent refusal to accept policies is frustrating. For some time now, Zulu Papa 5 ☆ has been pushing for the inclusion in the main IPCC article of an unwarranted promotion of an unreliable fringe book.[62] Cla68 has supported that inclusion, see this and subsequent sections, and despite being shown that its author is unreliable, has stated his intention to add citations to the book in various AGW articles.[63] Cla has repeatedly and tendentiously argued that "The book is published by a reputable publishing house. That's all that is required."[64][65][66][67] As I've now pointed out shortly before this complaint was filed, Cla appears to have forgotten the opening paragraph of the policy he repeatedly asked others to read.[68] He's an experienced editor and I'm surprised at his persistent misunderstanding. He even seems to argue that an unreliable source has to be shown defective in every specific claim.[69] This has been enabling Zulu Papa 5 ☆'s actions which are of the kind described in Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing. Uninvolved administrators are requested to bear that essay in mind when dealing with these allegations of incivility. . . dave souza, talk 10:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC) amended 10:45, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Not that there isn't a problem with Dr. Connolley's civility, which is exemplified by the attack on Zulu Papa 5 on talk:Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the debate that provides the context was a very frustrating one. Some editors were convinced that the verifiability and neutral point of view criteria could be satisfied by any book published by a reputable publisher, and steadfastly rejected cogent arguments on undue weight and the documented unreliability of the author as a scholar of science (including a reprimand from the Press Complaints Commission on his reporting on exactly the issue of climate change), labelling this as "obstructionism."

So I want this to be taken into account:

• My own less than tactful descriptions of the author's failings (comparison to a creationist scholar was bound to inflame and I should have realised this).
• Cla68's repetitive dismissal of objections to inclusion based in policy as "personal opinion"
• Zulu Papa 5's repeated dismissal of objections to inclusion based in policy as "obstruction", "source suppression" and "duplicity"
• Zulu Papa 5's extraordinary reaction to the discovery that the author admitted to lifting a quotation falsely attributed to John Houghton from some website on the internet, and included it prominently on page 1 of his own book with the false attribution, despite searching his own copy of the attributed source volume and being unable to find it. The author grudgingly admitted his error after being asked to do so by the editors of his newspaper, which he had used to promote his book. The author's excuse was that he had been "misled by the internet", which alone raises worries about his commitment to scholarship. Zulu Papa 5's frustrating response: "[I]t's confirmed he checks his facts for accuracy. The quality process is not perfect but it exists for continous improvement. We can have faith in it to be reliable"
• The final straw: Jprw and Zulu Papa 5 claim that criticisms of the author's unreliable scholarship--which came from, amongst others, the Press Complaints Commission, the Health and Safety Executive, and some qualified and reputable mainstream science journalists who reviewed the book--amounted to a biographies of living persons violation.

None of us come out of this looking good. I suggest that we look at the thread and try to work out how it came to be such a sick mess. --TS 10:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support The general sanctions are there for a reason. Nowhere do they say that an editor may ignore those sanctions if they feel the other guy did so first. WMC has violated those sanctions. Open a section about ZP5s comments if you wish but do not use them as an excuse for ignoring this complaint. Weakopedia (talk) 10:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

  What are you supporting? Please note that nobody is excusing Connolley, but there is a lot of context that points at other problem behavior. --TS 11:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, let's see. This is a section about the enforcement of sanctions. So I would be supporting the enforcement of sanctions. If nobody is excusing WMC then there is no need to negate the sanction enforcement in his case just because there may be 'other problem behaviour'. Deal with the matter in hand and then move on to the other behaviour. The sanctions don't say 'these sanctions don't apply if you feel someone else started it'. Regards. Weakopedia (talk) 17:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This probation is supposedly about improving the editing environment, and enabling pov pushing while cracking down on the civility of those trying to maintain article content policies will increasingly poison the editing environment. I value politeness, but remember that incivility includes "lying to mislead, including deliberately asserting false information". Repeatedly asserting false information despite being shown that it is false has the same uncivil effect, but of course assuming good faith we must accept that editors doing that do so unknowingly. Doesn't help the editing environment, and wastes a lot of time. . . dave souza, talk 17:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about WP:V with WP:RS ... true or false comes from that. Now WP:CIVIL is how the verification should proceed. And WP:OWN stemming from copy-write concerns is an issue too. This discussion is about how WMC's incivility and potential POV ownership are disrupting reliable source verification. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 18:05, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Your repeated refusal to abide by policies of verification and weight has been disruptive, your accusations of ownership are uncivil and unwarranted. That forms the background, I hope your future approach will not cause repeated problems. . . dave souza, talk 18:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

"Your repeated refusal to abide by policies of verification and weight has been disruptive ..." - These are serious allegations. Are you asserting them as indisputable facts that are generally recognized, or are these merely your opinion? --GoRight (talk) 19:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment While I haven't read all of the diffs provided by dave souza or by TS, and it is easy to be sympathetic with the frustration, virtually all the points are content disputes. Those content disputes may require the help of univolved editors, mediators or sysops, but this is not the forum for that. I recognize that TS is intending to put the alleged incivility in context, but let's not lose sight of the mandate of this forum - addressing alleged violations of probation. "incivility" is covered - while strongly worded content discussions, even one's that might misunderstand policy, are not covered.--SPhilbrickT 13:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Do not support sanctions - as to the substance of the incivil remarks - weak beer. In another context, worth ignoring or possibly a note to user talk. In this probation environment, WMC should know better. Not worth any formal sanction, but maybe a friend could whisper in his ear - "You know, this isn't helpful".--SPhilbrickT 13:10, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment (realising that doing so may mean that I am not permitted to edit the admin section below...) Why not take it to WP:WQA like Hipocrite and Marknutley did? If they determine a PA or at least incivility, then that finding can be brought back and a determination made per the probation and WMC's extended civility restriction (am I correct in thinking there is one? This is an aspect that makes these pages so tiring to patrol) and if they say no then there is nothing to review. If they refuse or cannot make a determination, at that point some admin will have to review the case fully. Is this a worthwhile course of action? LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd be disappointed if you were not permitted to edit the admin section, particularly as Lar has also edited this section showing a supportive attitude for Cla68 in bringing this matter up. . . dave souza, talk 17:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Nice try, Dave. LHvU: I see no reason why your comment here disqualifies you from commenting in the admin section. I think taking this to WQA might work, if the matter can get an objective review. ++Lar: t/c 03:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment re Lar[70]. Rather than taking a 'no smoke without fire' stance, isn't it more likely that this is an organised campaign by anti-science bloggers and many right-wing political commentators to help to rid WP of its science bias?[71] The question then is, do we want WP to have a science bias, or a science-denial bias? Or even a 'balanced' viewpoint that maybe science is tosh, or maybe its not? --Nigelj (talk) 17:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Pardon me for interrupting, "political science" sources indicate (as experts in methodicaly studied corruption), that the "science view" may have been corrupted. That this corruption may extend to WMC uncivil behavior here with a disruptive pattern of PA, would be no surprise except to deniers. I suspect you may have a narrow view about what science includes. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 01:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

It would also be helpful to have clarification on the "shooting the messenger" comment. I've not seen any proposals to shoot or sanction anyone other than WMC, though I'd hope that others will also be encouraged to improve their behaviour. . . dave souza, talk 17:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC) clarified 18:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

By "others" you mean to include WMC too, which this request is about, right?

@Nigelj - you present a false dichotomy. I see no reason why we can't have both a civil editing environment and a proper deference to established science and indeed there are separate policies in place to ensure both. Regarding your accusations they are irrelevant to this case. Both Cla68 and ZP5 are long time editors who contribute outside of the AGW space. JPatterson (talk) 18:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

@ JPatterson: Good point, sorry my intention was unclear – I've added clarification accordingly. . dave souza, talk 18:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

@Nigelj, the organization originates from a consistent pattern of PA behavior from WMC. If this request is to be organized, it must stay focused on that pattern of disruptive organization. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 18:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

My point was that there is reasonable evidence that the concentration of recent sanction requests against WMC may not be purely the result of WMC's recent actions, but are just as likely (as a whole, with no specific case in mind) to be the result of off-wiki campaigns to alter WP's perceived pro-science bias. I only offer this as Lar is "tired of seeing complaints about WMC" and so concludes that "there is a problem here". The problem may be external to WP. --Nigelj (talk) 18:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence for that? But even so, WMC has been cautioned about his approach in discussions, repeatedly. It doesn't seem to be "taking". ++Lar: t/c 00:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

There's evidence of off-wiki campaigns against WMC all over the internet. This one features the "call to arms" that is partially responsible for the recent influx in skeptical editors. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:41, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I have faith if we properly address the WMC problem here, any external WMC problem will go away too. Experts treat the root cause not the symptoms. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 01:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: I am tired of seeing complaints about WMC - so am I. But what is happening here is not a substantial civility problem. Many of the complainants happily propagate vicious attacks and throw terms like 'stooge', 'lackey' or 'fraud' around. These are not shrinking violets hurt by hard words, this is an attempt to get rid of an inconveniently competent editor to gain the upper hand in a content conflict. Dismiss as "unclean hands". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Object ... clean up WMC's dirty hands as the proximate cause for disruption to restore equity in WP:FIVE as a higher power above the editor. WMC makes Wikipedia weaker. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 01:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

What? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:41, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Breaks parole again in reverting what is not vandalism by any measure w/ no talkpage discussion. Also, "accused of possibly being a sock puppet" =/= "sock puppet." I'm sick of this.--Heyitspeter (talk) 18:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

"An editor has expressed a concern that this account may be a sock puppet of Scibaby." See User:Phermion and note that the editor expressing concern wasn't WMC. You appear to have misunderstood the situation, easily done. Suggest you strike your comment. . . dave souza, talk 18:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

No, Dave. You appear only to have read the key words of mine. I checked the sock puppet situation and read the comment given in the checkuser request before writing the above. Please reread what I wrote. I'm fine with you deleting this comment and yours afterwards. Anything to reduce the huge number of superfluous comments to this thread.--Heyitspeter (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Well then thats three time he has broken his parole, [72] mark nutley (talk) 19:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: Nothing will be done in regards to this complaint. There are too many who are willing to shoot the messengers, and even the victims, regarding complaints about Connolley. Jehochman's recent wildly premature close is simply the latest (and newest) example. Scottaka UnitAnode 01:02, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• To the admins...from what I've observed, the way to correct a contributor's behavior is by steady, consistent, escalation of corrective actions. In most cases, that means a series of topic bans or blocks that escalate in duration each time a violation occurs. A general editing block probably isn't necessary, but perhaps a temporary topic ban would achive the desired result. Cla68 (talk) 01:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment re "strike them out as the admins acting, leaving the strike in place with a note it was stricken as an enforcement action": Apart from the hyperbolic "egregious" (unless Lar thinks that means "true"), this is one of the more intelligent comments in this thread. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 04:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oddly, I do know what "egregious" means, I used the word for a reason. But your sarcasm is noted. Common tactic... and that's part of the problem. ++Lar: t/c 04:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Well, if you chose the word advisedly, you have a very low threshold for "egregious". And where was I sarcastic? I do think yours is a reasonable suggestion. It's not punitive and it treats the (perceived) problem directly. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 04:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
      • So "unless Lar thinks that means 'true'" was not sarcasm? You really believe Lar thinks egregious == true? ATren (talk) 12:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
        • Ummm....no. Do you know what sarcasm is? Do you know there are other forms of humor? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment and a suggestion: if it is brought to WP:WQA then both bandwagons are going to flood that page with arguments that spiral out of control, just like they do in article talk, user talk, and pages like this. Maybe editors that are involved in climate change articles should not be allowed to comment on it in WQA? The list of notified editors on the probation page seems pretty complete to me. It just turns into such an ugly mess that any wise or sane editor stays away from it. Ignignot (talk) 04:46, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I'm surprised reading the above discussion that no one has picked up on the fact that Zulu Papa 5 is a non-native speaker of English (I'm pretty sure that that is the case) and that as a result he may experience difficulty in getting his points across clearly, which is doubly to be expected in AGW discussions, which are hardly straightforward and contain numerous complex concepts and terminology, etc. For that reason I found WMC's comment towards him as high handed and very unseemly, and an open and shut case of a bad violation of WP: CIVIL. Surely we should be exercising additional patience, offering encouragement and making allowances with respect to contributors for whom English is not their native tongue. Jprw (talk) 11:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

You came to this conclusion how? Above looks like he has the English language down pretty well. --CrohnieGal^Talk 11:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, he's an advanced user, but when you are in the thick of making edits quickly or under stress the fact that English is not your native tongue comes into play. I for example consider myself fluent in one foreign language but that 'fluency' suffers if I am tired, angry or have had too much to drink. It's that principle. And added to the fact that AGW discussions contain numerous complex concepts and terminology, communication can become a problem. Jprw (talk) 13:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment From what I have seen, there are a handful of editors who seem to be taking turns bringing WMC here to complain, even about minor infractions, which is what I think the above it. I would hope that the off site attacks against him (WMC) will be considered in all of this. Looking at the article talk page, you will see the discussions going in circles which I think is part of the problem. By now it should be obvious that some editors will only be happy when WMC is banned from editing GW articles. Above there are comments like "POV ownership obstruction" (a PA by the standards of this complaint), "This whole General Sanction was created because of this indignant reverting behavior by WMC and team" (The sanctions created because of WMC and team, really, I think not. PA also with indignant reverting behavior by WMC and team, italics added.), and " clean up WMC's dirty hands as the proximate cause for disruption to restore equity in WP:FIVE as a higher power above the editor. WMC makes Wikipedia weaker'. I think these examples, taken directly from this compaint, are just as bad, maybe worse than what this complaint is about. This comment I think says it all about these continued compaints about WMC, "I have faith if we properly address the WMC problem here, any external WMC problem will go away too. Experts treat the root cause not the symptoms. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 8:44 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5)" There are blogging going on off site that I'm sure everyone here is aware of. I think these continued complaints are a big factor about those complaints. We can't, at least we shouldn't, allow the improper behavior and incorrect comments that are floating around the net effect with how we deal with GW articles. It's very disppointing to see what has been going on here. I say that there should be no sanctions from with what the difs show as WMC PA's. It's time for editors and administrators to read the talk page discussions and put a stop to the circular comments going on. If the talk page behaviors is stopped I'll bet the complaints here also stop or at least slow down. --CrohnieGal^Talk 11:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• WMC has done some things that skirt the boundaries of what's acceptable but this just isn't one of them. Guy (Help!) 12:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

This highlights a problem, as I suggested above, that is bigger than William M. Connolley. Discussions on some talk pages have become sick, and perhaps we need to impose stricter rules of discussion. The circular nature of that discussion, and the way it focussed on differences over matters of policy on which there should be, I would have thought, universal agreement, are very worrying, the introduction of the notion of the BLP as applied to well sourced problems with Booker's scholarship, also a little worrying.

Perhaps this could be viewed as a case of genuine differences over unsettled policy, but I doubt it. The verification policy has long required sources to be reliable and emphasized fact-checking. A (writer) source that has been repeatedly reproved for major inaccuracies by authoritative bodies (Health and Safety Exec and Press Complaints Commission in this case), and further has admitted to being "misled by the internet" on a simple matter of quote attribution on page 1 of his most recent work, should not be cited as a reliable source on science. A (book) source that presents a novel minority synthesis--a fringe view--should not normally be considered for inclusion on an article about a scientific subject because this is not consistent with the neutral point of view. It seems to me that those going out of their way to construct new interpretations of policy to permit such an inclusion have a duty to defend them, but, further, a duty not to inflame a problem area by repeatedly insisting on the new interpretations against substantial opposition. --TS 14:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

TS, you're right about the misuse of WP:BLP above, and it can be quickly cleared up here. My complaints should have centred around WP:NPV and WP:CIVIL. I'll make a change over there as well. I think the real point is that making progress in an argument becomes problematic if there are widespread vioaltions of WP:CIVIL Jprw (talk) 14:50, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony, the content and source debate that was ongoing on that article talk page is not the issue here. The issue here is whether a personal attack violation occurred, if it is part of a repeated pattern of behavior, and, if so, what to do about it. Please discuss content issues on the article talk pages. Cla68 (talk) 14:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony makes a valid point. When taken into the context of the dispute outlined by Tony, WMC's comment does not appear to be a personal attack at all. It seems like a typical response to tendentious editing. Virtually all of the civility-related RfE filings seem to arise over disputes of this nature, and until the root cause of the problem (agenda-driven editing) is resolved we are likely to see this sort of thing continue. And yes, most (but not all) of the agenda-driven editing is being done by advocates of the so-called "skeptical" position. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:35, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

It's interesting that you should say that. I noticed that all the WP:CIVIL and WP:NPV issues were coming from certain editors of the opposite persuasion (but not all, which, crucially, would seem to suggest that debates on AGW can be held in an atmosphere of civility). Jprw (talk) 15:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Regarding discussions of policing uncivil behavior - I am extremely worried that adding new avenues of bureaucratic action will only lead to more arguments in more places. People will argue over what the definition of uncivil behavior is, what the threshold for punishment is, why example A was not punished but example B was, and so on. The talk and arguments here are expanding to fill any space that will hold them. Adding more places to argue only results in more argument. A general (tentative) suggestion comes to mind then: draconian punishment for uncivil behavior, with little arbitration. If the punishment is severe, people will avoid coming even close to violating it, and the process has to be quick. Negative feedback is the most potent teaching tool in the universe. We're all grownups here, and civility violations can only come from either an inability to control impulses, or a disregard for rules because the punishment lacks enough force. I don't think anything can be done about the former, except eventual topic banning, but the second can be done relatively quickly. Ignignot (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually most studies show that people learn better from positive feedback than negative feedback. Not that there's much room for applying that round here I'm afraid, perhaps wikipedia needs more means of positive reinforcement. Dmcq (talk) 16:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

By Demorgan's Law of learning good, positively reinforcing someone not doing an action is equal to negatively reinforcing someone doing the same action. Ignignot (talk) 16:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning William M. Connolley

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I am tired of seeing complaints about WMC. I realize that some of the admins that frequent this board tend to think that the many complaints are primarily due to some fault with the complainers, rather than with WMC (although many do acknowledge various issues with WMC's behavior). I am afraid I do not agree with that viewpoint, given the sheer number of complaints and the wide variety of folk bringing them... and I think that if WMC can't play strictly within the rules, sterner measures are called for. What that means exactly I am not sure but there is a problem here. And it won't be solved by shooting the messenger. ++Lar: t/c 15:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• I think we're all tired of seeing complaints, many of which are vexatious and founded on the complainers not liking the fac t that WMC is a well-informed and eloquent advocate for the scientific consensus position. The idea of this process was to manage these sorts of things. It's not clear that is working in every case. It is probably mainly a matter of more and different eyes, but we are rapidly running out of uninvolved admins. I get a hint of "who will rid me of this turbulent priest?" about it. Guy (Help!) 12:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Closed, no sanction I am rejecting and closing this complaint. Sanctions are not a means to continue a content dispute. There are a number of unhelpful, single-purpose accounts swarming this topic. Rather than going after educated, good-faith editors, we should be clearing out the POV warriors. If you feel WMC is not as civil as he should be, follow the path of WP:WQA and then WP:RFC. I don't see any incivility here serious enough to result in a sanction at this time. Jehochman ^Brrr 19:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I've undone that close. I don't think you've established consensus among uninvolved admins that no sanction is called for here. I want to hear from more uninvolved admins before something is decided, and I do not want to see things closed unilaterally. I beleive I've made that point before. ++Lar: t/c 00:25, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I think I've made the point above that I actually think that trying to go for consensus hurts us more than it helps. But if we are going to do it: WMC is again pushing the line. He has been warned for his low level incivility several times, but continues to engage in it. The issue that I see is that it is clearly not entirely his fault, and indeed I would submit that we should be applying sanctions to more than one party in this case. But I'm not really sure what we can do. A block would simply be punitive, a one-sided topic ban wouldn't fit either. NW (Talk) 00:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
      • • I know you did make that point. The thing is, I've been deliberately holding back, giving my view and not rushing to close right away, because I think talking things through, finding agreement, etc. is goodness. But if we are going to go on a model where the first admin to arrive, closes things, then I guess when I see things first, I should act (and darn whoever gets there second that might have disagreed, too bad for them). And that just seems wrong. Like we're racing to get to the scene of the accident first. Maybe we need to talk this through on the talk page more but that's my thinking. ++Lar: t/c 03:41, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
      • I've said before I wouldn't touch climate change articles with a ten foot pole (as an editor or an admin). But uninvolved admins seem in short supply right now. I've "defended" WMC a couple of times at WP:COIN and I appreciate his content contributions, in general, so I certainly have no grudge against him. What bothers me in this case is less the remark, which is a borderline attack and not terribly uncivil, but his refusal to remove, refactor, or strike out the remark. I'd call this a non-issue if it wasn't for that. I don't like the disregard for the terms of the probation and I feel that there should be some repercussions for that, though like NuclearWarfare, I'm not sure what they should be. I also don't like swinging around WP:BLP carelessly like a baseball bat (calling an author an unreliable source is a BLP violation now?!) but that doesn't warrant the attack in my opinion. -- Atama頭 01:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
        • Maybe the thing to do, short of banning, or blocking which I agree may be too much here, is to find the egregious remarks that were not removed when pointed out (by whatever party) and strike them out as the admins acting, leaving the strike in place with a note it was stricken as an enforcement action. It's a violation of the norm that you never mod someone else's words to do that but it maybe would send a message? And no, it's not just WMC that is at fault here, and I'm not opposed to doing that (or whatever we decide on) to more folk than just WMC. This may be a place we don't want to go though. Civility policing doesn't work, usually. ++Lar: t/c 03:41, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
          • No, civility policing doesn't work. It always, always ends up in a sad death spiral that looks like... well, sort of like this, actually. But somehow the idea never seems to lose its theoretical appeal. MastCell ^Talk 04:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

There is a fine line between To call a spade a spade and incivility. However I admit I rather like the line which Lar is taking: can we have either an agreement on strikethrough by uninvolved admins or a tag "unnecessarily uncivil: please reword" or similar just for use on climate change? The biggest risk is perhaps the strikethrough or tag being used to inflame an argument by someone just copying the syntax and not understanding the rules. --BozMo talk 12:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Some comments made by all parties could and should be "returned to sender" by an uninvolved admin, but some of those parties will then enter a war over their peerless insights. As long as we're prepared for that... Guy (Help!) 13:06, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• I quite like the idea of a third party admin striking through comment when the request to the writer has been declined. I don't think the request should be made to the admin in the first place, giving the originating editor the chance to redact, strike through or amend will hopefully allow the chance for parties to resolve it first. Of course, the knowledge that it might be struck by a independent sysop if not by them might encourage the action. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• I've used the Template:Inappropriate comment here as an alternative to a strikethru following the user ignoring a refactoring request. It has a more clearly visual effect. Vsmith (talk) 14:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• This page has become useless. It is time to request arbitration. Rather than edit warring and disrupting the GW pages, the parties are now engaged in strategies to bait and sanction each other. It is time for a thorough review of everybody's behavior. Enforcement should not be arbitrary based on which admin responds to the complaint. Lar, you wanted to sanction. I did not. The default should be no sanction. No other admin has come forward suggesting to place a sanction, and by now any short term sanction would be punitive. This short noticeboard thread cannot fairly evaluate the long contribution history of WMC. If he is persistently incivil, WP:RFC or WP:RFAR are much more appropriate venues to address the problem, and establish consensus. Jehochman ^Brrr 17:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)