Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement
This board is for users to request enforcement under the terms of the climate change article probation. Requests should take the following format:
{{subst:Climate Sanction enforcement request | User against whom enforcement is requested = <Username> | Sanction or remedy that this user violated = [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation]] | Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so <!-- When providing several diffs, please use a numbered list as in this example. --> =<p> # [<Diff>] <Explanation> # [<Diff>] <Explanation> # [<Diff>] <Explanation> # ... | Diffs of prior warnings =<p> # [<Diff>] Warning by {{user|<Username>}} # [<Diff>] Warning by {{admin|<Username>}} # ... | Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) = <Your text> | Additional comments = <Your text> }}
This will generate a structure for managing the request including a second level header. Please place requests underneath the following divider, with new requests at the bottom of the page. For instructions on generating diff links, see Help:Diff.
For Requests for refactoring of Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines violations only, comments by parties other than the requester, the other party involved, and the reviewing/actioning/archiving editor will be removed.
Suspected Scibaby sockpuppets
Following discussion at Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Scibaby and enablers, this section is established to list active suspected Scibaby sockpuppets. This list is merely a courtesy to other editors active in this topic area, and does not replace Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Scibaby. Please remove accounts that have been blocked or were listed in error. Accounts listed here are probably sockpuppets of a banned user, and may be reverted on sight. Any editor in good standing may "adopt" an edit that in his or her considered opinion improves an article, subject to common editing norms. The utmost care should be exercised to avoid listing accounts in error, and any mistakes should be promptly recognized and rectified.
- Wealths wealth (talk · contribs) Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Mike's Nature Trick (talk · contribs) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:27, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Bosonic Fermion (talk · contribs) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 06:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
William M. Connolley
Consensus decision no case to answer. 21:44, 16 July 2010 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning William M. Connolley
Discussion concerning William M. ConnolleyStatement by William M. ConnolleyComments by others about the request concerning William M. ConnolleyCla is forgetting to mention several things here:
--Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC) This strikes me as a disingenuous request. As I've been tangentially involved in the discussions concerning this issue, I'd like to offer a perspective on it. This concerns a citation from a book, The Hockey Stick Illusion, that (as the title indicates) argues against the famous "hockey stick" graph. The book's position has negligible support among scientists. It is written by a blogger with no expertise in this particular field or scientific expertise in general. It has received only a handful of reviews and passing mentions confined exclusively to news opinion writers with a track record of "scepticism" concerning climate science. It has been ignored entirely by general media reviewers and the scientific press. It has not, as far as I can tell, been cited as a source by any other published works. WP:V requires articles to use "sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". A handful of editors, notably Marknutley and Cla68, argue in effect that the burden of proof is on other editors to demonstrate that a source does not have such a reputation. As an experienced editor, Cla68 knows perfectly well that this is a reversal of the normal burden of proof required by WP:V, which states: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material.". WMC's removal of the material in question is clearly in accordance with WP:V, and as the discussion at Talk:Hockey stick controversy#New source shows, there is strong opposition from other editors to the use of a fringe source. Cla68 appears to have made no attempt to take this to the reliable sources noticeboard for review. There clearly isn't anything actionable here - Cla68 should be told to resolve this through normal dispute resolution procedures rather than running here to make yet another enforcement request. Frankly, this looks like another episode in an ongoing vendetta. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
You guys are avoiding the important point here. I didn't use the book to add anything new to the article. I used it to source content that was already there and had been there for a long time, presumably added by WMC himself since he was one of the major contributors to the article. Also, WMC violated BLP by calling the author "fringe." A quick check of the article itself shows that there has been a lot of controversy surrounding the hockey stick graph, including hearings before the US Congress. Montford is making no statement on the veracity of the theory of human-caused warming, he is only commenting on the hockey stick research. I believe this is why the editors above have been unable to come up with any sources to meet their assertions that Montford is "fringe" on this subject, because he isn't. But to repeat, I used the book to source uncontroversial text, and that's why WMC's edit is a problem and an example of bad faith editing. Cla68 (talk) 00:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Wow - I can't believe that Cla68 is still trying to pass that blog comment off as a "blog post". Guettarda (talk) 00:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC) It appears that WMC and others are applying their own POV filter to evaluate what would otherwise be considered a reliable source. Tendentious editing, plain and simple. ATren (talk) 02:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC) As far as I see WMC's reversal of a wp:rs source should immedately be reversed. If he is unhappy with this obvious rs-source he should take it to the rs noticeboard for an evaluation. Nsaa
This is a content dispute and doesn't belong here. The first cited diff relates back to a lengthy talk page discussion. The second set relates to a discussion as to whether, in discussion of a possible source, it is a "violation of BLP" to call the book's author "fringe." To call that a "BLP violation" is to stretch the limits of BLP to the breaking point. This is now one of two enforcement actions brought against editors in the opposing CC faction without justifiable basis by Cla68. He/she needs to be sanctioned with a prohibition against bringing meritless enforcement cases. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:17, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Can the uninvolved admins please comment on this: why is a published book being removed as a source? On what basis? It's certainly not policy based, as published books are certainly valid, so what's the justification other than it does not fit through the POV filter of some editors? At the very least, it is tendentious editing, which is sanctionable ATren (talk) 15:18, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning William M. Connolley
|
Hipocrite
All participants are reminded to refrain from battleground language like "club" "cabal" and other types of membership organisation |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Hipocrite
Discussion concerning HipocriteStatement by HipocriteIf calling people part of a cabal based only on the fact that they happen to show up at articles together and agree with each other is a violation, why hasn't Cla68 called for himself to be blocked? Thin skins, my friends, thin skins. Hipocrite (talk) 17:03, 10 July 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning HipocriteThis one really is utterly weird. Cla has happily made unfounded accusations of Cabals on the arbcomm page but somehow objects to the same label being applied to him? Dismiss this frivolous request with prejudice William M. Connolley (talk) 11:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Cla68 is correct that "cabal" should not be used, and that rule needs to be applied uniformly. However, if this was part of an overarching "anti-labeling" endeavor I presume we'd be seeing cases like this brought uniformly against all offenders, which is not happening. WMC has a point. We're in the middle of an arbitration in which the whole issue of "cabals" is being hashed out. Bringing this sanction claim against Hipocrite, in that context, strikes me as a good example of the arbitration enforcement mechanisms being used in a spiteful and counterproductive manner. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:09, 10 July 2010 (UTC) Note: this is Cla's second meritless request on not-very-long. I hope the closing admins will consider some sanction against Cla; perhaps similar to that imposed on MN William M. Connolley (talk) 14:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC) @LHvU: "skeptic" is not an insult, and "cabal" (and similar words) seems to be entirely acceptable to Cla (since he's using it in the RFAR) and others (cf. Lar). So what's the alleged pa here? Guettarda (talk) 14:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Hipocrite was adding the "free market environmentalist" to the lede of Solomon's BLP based on a single passing reference in an article published in an obscure Canadian magazine known for it's strong liberal viewpoint. This was a bad edit, pure and simple. But I assumed good faith and emailed Solomon himself to see if he was content with the label: He called it "pejorative". So I removed the label, and for that I'm part of some cabal. At the very least, Hipocrite is, in the guise of trying to resolve a dispute, actually fanning the flames by adding poorly sourced material and then flinging accusations at those who try to remove them. This is not a spurious report, not in the least. ATren (talk) 15:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC) @LessHeard vanU: I see no material difference between using "cabal" as an insult on the talk pages and using it as an insult, casually and without substantiation, on the pages of the arbitration case. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
LHVU needs to go through these contortions because if he can't excuse Cla, that will make two meritless requests in a row, which will make it hard to avoid to avoid some kind of sanction on Cla, given precedent William M. Connolley (talk) 22:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
The suggestion that no one can use a term because some people think it is offensive to their group is ludicrous. If people wish to not be seen as part of a group, they should avoid being seen as part of a gaggle in the first place <g>. And it should be noted that the existence of the gaggle is reinforced on this page, which worries me a great deal. Collect (talk) 11:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Hipocrite
|
ZuluPapa5
dealt with and stale |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning ZuluPapa5
Discussion concerning ZuluPapa5Statement by ZuluPapa5Comments by others about the request concerning ZuluPapa5
Result concerning ZuluPapa5
|
Tarc
closing this with a reminder to all sides to avoid confrontational language |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Tarc
Since Tarc has banned me from his talk page,[31] I'm not sure if it's appropriate for me to notify him. Can someone else please notify Tarc? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning TarcStatement by TarcTempted to just say "LOLWUT" and move on. But, this user drops a link to an OpEd titled "The Climategate Whitewash Continues" into the article talk page. No context, no reason, no suggestion as to how, why, or, where it'd improve the article. I called him out on it...sharply, but not in a personal attack manner. He really needs some thicker skin. I really have little else to offer, as it seems a pretty straight-forward matter. Tarc (talk) 17:35, 15 July 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Tarc
Result concerning Tarc
Per above "Suggest closing this with a reminder to all sides to avoid confrontational language". It is incivil but sadly not more so than many others. --BozMo talk 20:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
|
Hipocrite
Closed by requester as the issue is resolved |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Hipocrite
Discussion concerning HipocriteStatement by HipocriteThat's not what I said. Read carefully. Hipocrite (talk) 16:01, 16 July 2010 (UTC) But, in order to appease mark, I've edited my comment. Hipocrite (talk) 16:07, 16 July 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Hipocrite
Result concerning Hipocrite
|
William M. Connolley
superseded |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning William M. Connolley
Discussion concerning William M. ConnolleyStatement by William M. ConnolleyComments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley
Result concerning William M. Connolley
|
Marknutley again
superseded |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Marknutley
Discussion concerning MarknutleyStatement by MarknutleyThis is an obvious attempt to distract from WMC`s parole violation, lets actually look at the facts shall we. User:Verbal reverts User:GregJackP with the edit summary Material is not well sourced and is UNDUE / unbalanced. Take to talk please So i look at the refs, and see NASA and The Guardian. I looked on talk and saw Verbal had not bothered to post there, just the usual bickering going on. So yes i reverted. I however have not broken my probation as is being suggested. The sources were already in the article and used by Gregjack, who i believe is an editor in good standing. mark nutley (talk) 22:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning MarknutleySaying a scientist is wrong is not defamation. Scientists do it all the time. (Part of the whole progress thing.) If this was the reasoning you used for excluding this piece of text when you confronted MN then I'm not surprised he wasn't swayed. That said, I do think the text MN added goes against WP:SYN. And if the Watson quote is not in the audio file... well that's frustrating.--Heyitspeter (talk) 20:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Look, the text being added is pretty obviously wrong to those who understand the issue, but if you look on the talk page, there is no attempt to explain the very simple misconception here: that 95% of Martian's sparse atmosphere is still a very small absolute number. Would it have been so hard to simply leave a short message on talk explaining this? It's also WP:SYN, so that could have been stated as well. A short message could have saved a lot of thrashing around. Instead, all the responses were of the "you don't know what you're talking about" variety, which was true but not at all helpful in resolving the dispute. ATren (talk) 21:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I think the main point is that MN is deliberately re-introducing factually incorrect information into a BLP. The best you can say in his defence is that he doesn't understand the material. Which I think brings us on to the second point, which is that his edits are (yet another) violation of his sourcing parole William M. Connolley (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Marknutley
|
William M. Connolley
Closed at request of Bozmo |
---|
mark nutley (talk) 20:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning William M. Connolley
No diff`s he already knows about this
Discussion concerning William M. ConnolleyStatement by William M. ConnolleyMN restored an edit by Scibaby. By my defn of the word, that is "proxying". If you weasel your defn, you might decide it isn't proxing. Either way round, the correct solution to this is for MN to apologise for restoring the Scibaby edit, and do his best to learn from that not to do so again, rather than raise yet another unproductive enforcement request. As for the second diff: a rather fuller version is @MN: I don't think that comment adds anything to the discussion. Please remember your parole and why it was imposed, and just don't contribute to these discussions. There is a problem on the talk pages: MN persists in showing up and arguing that any old source, as long as it is "skeptic", is fine. And reliable. And so on. His contributions to these debates are always noise. And there is a reason for that: MN is on don't-add-sources sanction, because he has provably, time and again, failed to understand sources and our sourcing policy. William M. Connolley (talk) 12:51, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning William M. ConnolleyReverting an edit by an accused sock is not a violation of anything - it only indicates that the person making the edit assumes responsibility for the edit. It is most assuredly not "poxying" for a sock, nor should anyone who makes such an edit be accused of "proxying" for a sock. WP:PROXYING refers only to acting at the behest of a banned editor - such an accusation is an accusation of violating WP policy, and hence should only be raised at a noticeboard, not bandied about otherwise. One of the prime issues at arbitration is civility - and this is one more example to place there if it is not acted upon here. Collect (talk) 12:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Get it over with now and enforce the probation, WMC has learned nothing. Way to much time invested in this editor's behavior problems. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 12:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Agree with ZP5. WMC is a huge time sink and a drain on the community's resources. I'm trying to work on getting one of my articles up to WP:GA status and adding sources to an unsourced WP:BLP, not to mention my regular contributions to WP:RSN. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would be a hell of a lot more productive on Wikipedia if we didn't have to deal with WMC's constant behavioral problems. I recommend a 48 hour block until ArbCom decides what to do with him. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning William M. Connolley
FWIW this concerns [51] where Mark reinstated a talk page comment by a Scibaby sock on grounds that CU had not yet taken place. LHvU has, if I understand correctly, already said on his talk page he thinks WMC describing this as "proxying for a sock" in these circumstances is a PA. I have already said proxying looks like the wrong word but MN shouldn't be reverting deletions of sock contributions and some rebuke was needed. Various others have commented here. At this stage I have nothing to add to what I said when it was raised to LHvU.--BozMo talk 10:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
|
Request concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen
- User requesting enforcement
- Cla68
- Users against whom enforcement is requested
- William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- KimDabelsteinPetersen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [52] WMC readds single, self-published source (personal webpage of a university professor hosted on the university's website) that is extremely critical of Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley
- [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60] [61] [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] Kim D. Petersen then fights on the article talk page for inclusion of the material and source.
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Correct the behavior
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Wikipedia is strict about enforcing its BLP rules after several real life cases have caused harm to BLP subjects. There is no leeway for misbehavior or abuse in this regard. WMC and Kim have a long history of BLP abuses. WMC usually makes the bad edit, then Kim tries to justify it through wikilawyering on the talk page. Please make them stop.
Discussion concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen
Statement by William M. Connolley
Statement by Kim D. Petersen
My comments on the talk page should stand by themselves. As for Cla68's claims: No i haven't fought for inclusion. No, i do not have a "long history of BLP abuse". This is a simple content dispute, which is being blown extremely out of proportion. I disagree about the BLP claim (and still do), and strangely enough, this matches rather precisely some principles that i wrote down for the ArbCom case, but didn't submit, since it became obvious that ArbCom would not make content or policy decisions - but rather focus on behaviour: Here. Since it is 1:47 AM in my timezone, i will probably not reply anymore, unless i can't fall asleep. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen
This is an unreasonable request. The material in question is the claim that someone called Abraham made a presentation criticising the views of someone called Monckton. I kid you not, that's it. No-one has proposed giving any details of the presentation. This is not liked by several editors, but it seems to be common ground that it is true and verifiable. In other words, there is nothing contentious here and therefore no BLP issue. If anyone wants to see a genuine BLP breach regarding the subject of this article, I can very easily give a demonstration of what one would look like, so that you can tell the difference for future reference. --FormerIP (talk) 23:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Clearly a violation of a number of Wikipedia policies. First, it was a self-published source, in addition to being a primary source. Second, the source accused the subject of the article of making up a false quote, clearly against BLP policy unless. The entire presentation was an attack piece. The BLP policy states to Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced; that is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see No original research); that relies on self-published sources, unless written by the subject of the BLP (see below)... The self-published source, in and of itself is grounds for removal. GregJackP Boomer! 00:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- BLP also states "We must get the article right". Trying to remove the fact that there was notable comment on the opinions of the subject by someone who knows what they are talking about isn't consistent with that.©Geni 00:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Guys, the admins aren't going to rule on anything (except the most egregious conduct and this isn't it) with ArbCom about to announce their proposed decision. Face it, the probation has come to a screeching halt. I suggest that the filer withdraw this RfE. BTW, ArbCom asked us to take a break from these articles, so I don't understand why anyone's working on them right now. Find some other articles to work on. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I hope that the admins will consider placing a temporary injunction prohibiting WMC and Kim from editing any BLPs, including the talk pages, pending the results of the ArbCom case. Even when the proposed decision is posted, it will probably still be several days at least before all the Committee members finish voting. Cla68 (talk) 00:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Look, I have a solution for everyone. Please click this link and improve the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, when I clicked on it, I got Climate change as viewed by creationists in communist Israel... --FormerIP (talk) 01:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
@Wordsmith: There hasn't been a ruling from the admins for the last 7 RfEs. Not only has there not been a ruling, there aren't even any admins discussing the issues. Not one active discussion. Sorry if I've broken some protocol by pointing out the obvious. If I have, let me know, and I'll redact. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment -- This may be the most egregious BLP violation I've seen on wiki. And several hours spent arguing for its inclusion is stunning. I am unfamiliar with the enforcement mechanism in this area, but given the seriousness of this BLP violation, it is disappointing that admins have not looked in and/or taken decisive and firm action in this case. Do you guys ever use the BLP noticeboard, or do you just bring issues here to the probation enforcement? Minor4th 02:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
As is his wont, Cla68 has included a long string of diffs many of which are of little or no relevance. Administrators handling the case should be careful to examine each diff. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree that BLP doesn't allow the Abraham comment. But this is a content dispute. It should be raised at BLP/N, not here. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Lar is not an uninvolved admin
Lar, being in an adversarial role to both KDP and WMC in the Great Climate Change Omnibus Case of 2010, where he explicitly proposes a topic ban for KDP and a year-long ban for WMC [70], is not neutral by either the common sense definition of the word, by previous ArbCom precedence, or by the definition in Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Curious about this. So are you saying that if an admin, at any point in the past, expressed an opinion that a certain poster engaged in behavior deserving of sanctions, then that admin is forever after an "involved" admin for all purposes and cannot participate in enforcement discussions about that editor on totally unrelated events that the admin was probably not even aware of until he read about it on the enforcement page? What about an admin who has expressed an opinion that either of these editors did not deserve sanctions in the past -- is that admin also forever tainted because he is not neutral, as evidenced by his having an opinion in the past? It seems like that's what you're saying but that can't be what you mean. Minor4th 06:05, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that an admin who is currently, at this moment, part of an ArbCom case and is proposing drastic measures against certain editors, is not uninvolved. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I know you said currently but I thought you just chose the wrong word -- that opinion that Lars had about sanctions was days or weeks ago, and it was about incidents that are not related to this enforcement, right? I could understand the concern if Lar was in a current content dispute with these editors and was using his admin tools to win, but that is not the case. There's no requirement that an admin be neutral to be uninvolved -- if an admin is completely neutral how could a decision ever be made? By the way, why does it matter whether he is uninvolved or not -- he is apparently not even recommending sanctions according to his comment. He merely said it was not nice. You started this whole new section, so it must be important in a way that escapes me. Minor4th 07:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- "Currently" was chosen advisedly. Lar's suggestion were 4 days ago in a dispute that has been running for months (and for several weeks in Arbitration), the arbitration case is still open, and Lar's proposed sanctions are his current proposal. Why this ultimately matters is beyond me, but, if you check the history, it is apparently paramount that only uninvolved admins comment in the "Results" section, no matter what they say. People have filed ArbCom cases about this... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification on currently -- I suppose we view "uninvolved" differently. It seems like youre saying that an admin who holds a negative view about these editors' bad behavior is disqualified from commenting. Or maybe it's the section heading that is throwing this into the realm of the bizarre. What is your opinion on the behavior Lar is commenting on though? (irrespective of where he placed his comment). I hope youre not in favor of edit warring or BLP denigration. Minor4th 11:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- "Currently" was chosen advisedly. Lar's suggestion were 4 days ago in a dispute that has been running for months (and for several weeks in Arbitration), the arbitration case is still open, and Lar's proposed sanctions are his current proposal. Why this ultimately matters is beyond me, but, if you check the history, it is apparently paramount that only uninvolved admins comment in the "Results" section, no matter what they say. People have filed ArbCom cases about this... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I know you said currently but I thought you just chose the wrong word -- that opinion that Lars had about sanctions was days or weeks ago, and it was about incidents that are not related to this enforcement, right? I could understand the concern if Lar was in a current content dispute with these editors and was using his admin tools to win, but that is not the case. There's no requirement that an admin be neutral to be uninvolved -- if an admin is completely neutral how could a decision ever be made? By the way, why does it matter whether he is uninvolved or not -- he is apparently not even recommending sanctions according to his comment. He merely said it was not nice. You started this whole new section, so it must be important in a way that escapes me. Minor4th 07:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that an admin who is currently, at this moment, part of an ArbCom case and is proposing drastic measures against certain editors, is not uninvolved. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is the latest in a long list of Lar stretching the rules for himself on this page. He seems to think yet again that any deep long lasting conflicts with certain editors (often with him in a non-admin role) does not count whilst simply not editing certain articles makes him Mr neutral (uninvolved). Polargeo (talk) 10:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- This isn't about me. This is about KDP filibustering to block consensus. Trying to make it about me is yet another example of inappropriate tactics to avoid the actual issue. BozMo has also proposed things in the case, that doesn't make him involved either. You guys know better. However that doesn't stop you. Which is why there's a case. ++Lar: t/c 10:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- The below comment chain is a response to a comment by WMC placed in the wrong section, (first diff below), moved here (third diff below), edit warred to retain (second diff below), moved here again and then removed by WMC who apparently is more concerned with having it in the section he wants than having it be visible. ++Lar: t/c 12:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
This is again a case of "Lar is involved because I say he is involved" where the RFC/U did not arrive at such a conclusion. I guess if people claim it is true it becomes true? An interesting thesis. Collect (talk) 11:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- No it is a major case at arbcom currently running with many serious and valid points that need to be answered. This is not a standard ATren "I say you are involved" or even a simple Lar "you have edited a CC article so you are involved" case so please do not dismiss this in the usual way. Any admin worth their salt should recuse themselves in these circumstances or face some serious come back. Polargeo (talk) 11:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- He is only involved because the members of the Church of Global Warming want him excommunicated because he enforces the rules. GregJackP Boomer! 12:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- GJP this is potentially a WP:Battleground addition to send this back to a them and us. When in this case I am not a them or an us but someone trying to get wikipedia right. Let us carry on in a more productive way. Polargeo (talk) 12:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- That was not directed at you, but a general comment on the state of affairs in this area, and if you interpreted it to mean that it was intended for you, my apologies. It just seems to me that this has broken down into two basic camps, with a smaller third camp that just want the rules applied to all. I certainly did not mean to imply that you were out of line in your comment. GregJackP Boomer! 12:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- GJP this is potentially a WP:Battleground addition to send this back to a them and us. When in this case I am not a them or an us but someone trying to get wikipedia right. Let us carry on in a more productive way. Polargeo (talk) 12:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- He is only involved because the members of the Church of Global Warming want him excommunicated because he enforces the rules. GregJackP Boomer! 12:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Question for those who think this is not a BLP vio
Several (Geni, NW, Wordsmith, BozMo) have questioned whether this really is a BLP vio. I would like them to justify here why it is not. Specifically, answer these two questions: (1) is the material contentious? (2) is it self-published? If you respond yes to both, then it's a slam dunk as far as BLP concerned: it is to be removed immediately. If you respond no, then please explain your reasoning. Note that the material in question triggered legal action, and was only ever "published" on Abraham's personal webpage at the university. ATren (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I realise you aren't asking me, but I thought I'd inject a few thoughts anyway. One issue is whether it's biographical - whether information is subject to BLP depends on the subject of the material rather than the location. So that's one hair worth splitting. The other, as BozMo pointed out, is that the material is covered by reliable sources that are not self-published. So the information can be reliably sourced to sources that are BLP-appropriate. Which makes this more of a formatting issue than anything; cf. WP:BURO. Guettarda (talk) 13:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Guettarda, the source I removed was unpublished and contentious. Read BLP -- that's sufficient for removal, and the policy language is not just firm, it's draconian, filled with bolded terms and references to proclamations from Jimbo. In any other situation this would be a non-controversial removal, but here it's opposed. Your classification of this very serious issue as simply "formatting" is startling. ATren (talk) 14:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Assuming this was a BLP issue (which is less than clear-cut, since it was a discussion of ideas, not of people), it was not inappropriate to remove it. But this request wasn't filed to discuss your behaviour, was it? The fact remains that the material was discussed by non-SPSs. Once that was clear, it became a formatting issue, a content issue, but not so much a BLP issue. Assuming, of course, that it ever was "biographical information about a living person". Guettarda (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Guettarda, the source I removed was unpublished and contentious. Read BLP -- that's sufficient for removal, and the policy language is not just firm, it's draconian, filled with bolded terms and references to proclamations from Jimbo. In any other situation this would be a non-controversial removal, but here it's opposed. Your classification of this very serious issue as simply "formatting" is startling. ATren (talk) 14:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- You are simplifying the matter too much. The answer to both of your questions is "yes". However, there are other matters to consider. The full content of the addition is "In response to Monckton's 2009 appearance at a symposium sponsored by the "Minnesota Free Market Institute," University of St. Thomas professor of Thermal Engineering John Abraham prepared a 73-minute slide show titled "A Scientist Replies to Christopher Monckton," rebutting all of Monckton's claims.[#]" Let us exclude for the moment the final clause (specifically the "all") of the sentence, which I agree is bad practice as it takes sides in this real world dispute but also could have been solved without any escalation whatsoever. The purpose of BLP is to provide both truthful and verifiable information on subjects so we don't have repeats of incidents like the Seigenthaler incident or the situation involving Mr. Brandt[71]. Is it true that Abraham did such a thing? Is it verifiable that he did such a thing? Is it the case that some material in biographies of living persons, depending on context, does not have to be held to the same standards of sourcing as other material because it does not focus on biographical details but rather incidents? If the answer to all three is yes, I believe the spirit of what BLP is trying to prevent is met. NW (Talk) 14:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- NW, read BLP -- sources such as this are to be removed on sight. There is no gray area here. BLP policy is clear on this and it supercedes all other analysis, including WP:V. Again read BLP: the spirit of that policy is basically draconian suppression of anything that is contentious and unpublished. In the first few sections alone it says repeatedly, in unambiguous language that frequently includes bolding, that such material is not permitted. Period. Full stop. This unpublished source triggered legal action between the parties. It's hard to imagine something more controversial than that (or as forbidden from a BLP policy standpoint). This is a slam dunk, and your reading of the spirit of the rule is frankly wrong.
- Now, if the wording and sourcing had been different, then we might have been discussing different issues like weight and verifiability. But the BLP issue was so straightforward that all those other concerns were irrelevant. Or should have been. ATren (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- So what if it led to legal action? That doesn't make it impermissible to add it to the article. If anything, it only makes it more notable. In any case, WP:BLPSPS says to avoid using a self-published source as "sources of material about a living person". This is not a source of material about a living person, even though it is in a biography. Therefore, normal WP:SPS rules apply, which this qualifies under as the material is self-published by a notable academic and scientist. NW (Talk) 15:14, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- NW, this is splitting hairs. Monckton's name is prominent throughout the entire presentation, and in fact he starts the presentation by discussing Monckton's qualifications in a way that would imply that Abraham thought Monckton to be unqualified. You don't consider that to be directed at Monckton himself? If someone posted a long presentation about your views in that format, questioning your qualifications and then presenting dozens of slides criticizing your arguments and your arguments alone, are you seriously saying you would not feel it was directed at you? ATren (talk) 19:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your concern might be relevant if the presentation was being used as a source. But since it's not, at least in the current version, it's an irrelevant issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- ChrisO, it was used as a source - that's what this request is about. I reverted the source and the text out, citing BLP, and it started a huge discussion on talk where editors were claiming it wasn't a BLP vio. ATren (talk) 19:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Let me refocus: BLP is meant to ensure that we have verifiable information in our article. Linking to the scientist's website is acceptable to use to verify that he criticized Monckton, as that is where he did it. Whether or not the criticism is notable is another matter. NW (Talk) 20:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- "BLP is meant to ensure that we have verifiable information in our article." No, that is precisely what WP:V is. If WP:V covered it, we wouldn't need WP:BLP. BLP policy exists as a separate entity because the standards are different. Where WP:V has gray areas, BLP is black-and-white; where WP:V stresses verifiability and "getting it right", BLP stresses solid sourcing and protecting the person. I think you are misinterpreting policy here. ATren (talk) 00:49, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
- Let me refocus: BLP is meant to ensure that we have verifiable information in our article. Linking to the scientist's website is acceptable to use to verify that he criticized Monckton, as that is where he did it. Whether or not the criticism is notable is another matter. NW (Talk) 20:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- ChrisO, it was used as a source - that's what this request is about. I reverted the source and the text out, citing BLP, and it started a huge discussion on talk where editors were claiming it wasn't a BLP vio. ATren (talk) 19:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your concern might be relevant if the presentation was being used as a source. But since it's not, at least in the current version, it's an irrelevant issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- NW, this is splitting hairs. Monckton's name is prominent throughout the entire presentation, and in fact he starts the presentation by discussing Monckton's qualifications in a way that would imply that Abraham thought Monckton to be unqualified. You don't consider that to be directed at Monckton himself? If someone posted a long presentation about your views in that format, questioning your qualifications and then presenting dozens of slides criticizing your arguments and your arguments alone, are you seriously saying you would not feel it was directed at you? ATren (talk) 19:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- So what if it led to legal action? That doesn't make it impermissible to add it to the article. If anything, it only makes it more notable. In any case, WP:BLPSPS says to avoid using a self-published source as "sources of material about a living person". This is not a source of material about a living person, even though it is in a biography. Therefore, normal WP:SPS rules apply, which this qualifies under as the material is self-published by a notable academic and scientist. NW (Talk) 15:14, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Now, if the wording and sourcing had been different, then we might have been discussing different issues like weight and verifiability. But the BLP issue was so straightforward that all those other concerns were irrelevant. Or should have been. ATren (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @NW Aren't you overcomplicating things? I thought question 3 would be something nice and easy like Is it notable? And probably question 4 should be If being the subject of a Guardian blog post makes criticism notable enough for a BLP does that mean all objections to using such blogs are now gone?. Or maybe it should be Is non-notable criticism appropriate for any article, regardless of whether or not it is a BLP? Or how about When Jimbo pushed for BLP rules did he envisage people adding non-notable criticism to BLPs, backed up by admins telling them it was ok if it wasn't to the BLP part of the BLP? Weakopedia (talk) 14:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @ATren, If it was a BLP vio and you had a simple option to fix it or remove it, which would you do? If the exact form of words and that link was all that was available I would have deleted them. But it looks unimpressive that people warred over the removal rather than discussed the simple fixes possible. Unimpressive all round really. You might as well go the whole hog and say "the article contains a BLP vio lets delete the article". Or "Wikipedia contains a BLP vio lets shut down Wikipedia". Ok, come here and complain about it but I don't think you get a lot of sympathy when more constructive and quicker avenues to deal with the BLP bit had not been tried. --BozMo talk 15:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @NW Aren't you overcomplicating things? I thought question 3 would be something nice and easy like Is it notable? And probably question 4 should be If being the subject of a Guardian blog post makes criticism notable enough for a BLP does that mean all objections to using such blogs are now gone?. Or maybe it should be Is non-notable criticism appropriate for any article, regardless of whether or not it is a BLP? Or how about When Jimbo pushed for BLP rules did he envisage people adding non-notable criticism to BLPs, backed up by admins telling them it was ok if it wasn't to the BLP part of the BLP? Weakopedia (talk) 14:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @Weakopedia: I think, and that was the point of the discussion, that the question of "is this notable", is quite separate from the "is this a BLP violation" question. But, you can't discuss "is this notable" before you have "is this a BLP violation" solved. Dunno if that makes sense - but that is/and was my view. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC) [this is basically the "BLP hammer" argument - call something a BLP vio., and all discussion has to stop until it is resolved whether or not it actually is a BLP vio. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)]
- This whole business is really quite silly and it shows yet again two destructive behaviours which need to be curbed - the lack of any serious effort to discuss the fixes mentioned by BozMo, and the instant resort to a probation enforcement request (which, frankly, is an abuse of this page). The fixes required are obvious, merely a matter of providing reliable sourcing. Following BozMo's comments I have added a new version of the Abraham para which uses reliable sources and presents no BLP issues - see [72]. Hopefully that will resolve the immediate problem here. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- ChrisO, the text that was inserted 3 times over the past few weeks (and reverted most recently by WMC) had language and sourcing that was quite obviously a BLP vio. Whether there are other wordings/sources which would fit is another question, but the text as it was inserted (repeatedly) was clearly a violation. Now, if someone else had presented alternate sourcing and wording (they did, quite far into the discussion) we could have perhaps evaluated it, but most of the discussion was denying the obvious BLP problem that existed. That's why the request went up, and your insinuations otherwise are misleading. ATren (talk) 19:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Having said that, this text has serious weight issues and probably shouldn't be included anyways, even if the BLP problems are addressed. This criticism was barely notable. As a counter example, consider Mann's hockey stick. If you go to Michael Mann's page right now, there is barely a hint of the enormous controversy generated by that theory (warranted or not, there's a ton out there). If well-sourced hockey stick criticism is removed of Mann, how can this barely notable unpublished criticism be kept in here? But this is perhaps a question for the talk page. ATren (talk) 19:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's disappointing but perhaps predictable that Marknutley is trying to edit-war the revised paragraph out of the article, claiming BLP violations again [73], [74], [75] and declaring his intention to continue edit warring indefinitely. [76] I think a block would be warranted at this stage. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Having said that, this text has serious weight issues and probably shouldn't be included anyways, even if the BLP problems are addressed. This criticism was barely notable. As a counter example, consider Mann's hockey stick. If you go to Michael Mann's page right now, there is barely a hint of the enormous controversy generated by that theory (warranted or not, there's a ton out there). If well-sourced hockey stick criticism is removed of Mann, how can this barely notable unpublished criticism be kept in here? But this is perhaps a question for the talk page. ATren (talk) 19:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- ChrisO, the text that was inserted 3 times over the past few weeks (and reverted most recently by WMC) had language and sourcing that was quite obviously a BLP vio. Whether there are other wordings/sources which would fit is another question, but the text as it was inserted (repeatedly) was clearly a violation. Now, if someone else had presented alternate sourcing and wording (they did, quite far into the discussion) we could have perhaps evaluated it, but most of the discussion was denying the obvious BLP problem that existed. That's why the request went up, and your insinuations otherwise are misleading. ATren (talk) 19:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- This whole business is really quite silly and it shows yet again two destructive behaviours which need to be curbed - the lack of any serious effort to discuss the fixes mentioned by BozMo, and the instant resort to a probation enforcement request (which, frankly, is an abuse of this page). The fixes required are obvious, merely a matter of providing reliable sourcing. Following BozMo's comments I have added a new version of the Abraham para which uses reliable sources and presents no BLP issues - see [72]. Hopefully that will resolve the immediate problem here. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @Weakopedia: I think, and that was the point of the discussion, that the question of "is this notable", is quite separate from the "is this a BLP violation" question. But, you can't discuss "is this notable" before you have "is this a BLP violation" solved. Dunno if that makes sense - but that is/and was my view. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC) [this is basically the "BLP hammer" argument - call something a BLP vio., and all discussion has to stop until it is resolved whether or not it actually is a BLP vio. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)]
ChrisO: You're also edit-warring over contentious material in a BLP:[77][78] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- As I said above, I followed the sourcing suggestions of BozMo (and I see also NuclearWarfare) and added a rewritten version of the disputed paragraph, avoiding the BLP problems that some were claiming with regard to the sourcing. I subsequently reverted once. That does not make an edit war. Marknutley's three reversions when he's on a 1RR parole are more difficult to justify. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- In my view, it would have been perfectly defensible to cite the Guardian and mention that Abraham had produced a slide show rebutting Monckton, but adding the self-published slide show to the BLP was not. It is not the purpose of BLPs to argue science, or to show why BLP subjects are wrong. --JN466 23:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, and I agreed with the earlier views that the sourcing was inadequate and the wording poor - which is why I changed both to provide reliable sources and neutral wording (see here. Note that the two Guardian articles I cited give both sides of the argument (i.e. Abraham's that Monckton is wrong and Monckton's that Abraham is being malicious and his demands of Abraham). There is of course room for a discussion about weighting, but I don't see anyone objecting on undue weight grounds in the earlier discussion. This seems to be a new objection now that the sourcing and wording problems have been resolved. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Note: ChrisO added the contested source back in. MN reverted, WMC reverted, MN reverted, MN got blocked, and SirFozzie protected. At least he protected with the contested source out, but it's a shame it had to come to this. If Marknutley added an unpublished criticism of the hockey stick from a skeptic scientist to Michael Mann's BLP, he'd be immediately sanctioned. But he's sanctioned for removing a bad source here. It's a joke. But this will be my last comment on the matter; it's not worth the trouble anymore. I've spent 3 years battling these same half dozen editors on obvious BLP transgressions, and nobody seems to care. So I don't either. ATren (talk) 00:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, that's completely wrong. I did not "add the contested source back in". I rewrote the material in its entirety, sourced to two Guardian articles. The contested source was not used as a source for anything. See for yourself. Nor was Marknutley blocked for removing a bad source. The block was on him rather than other editors because "a) it wasn't a BLP violation, b) they did not break an edit warring parole, and c) they did not signify their intent to continue edit warring even past that". See for yourself. Please check your facts before jumping to conclusions. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
@ NW, in response to his comments below and elsewhere: NW, either you accept the wording of WP:BLPSPS, or you don't. If you don't accept it, argue your case at the WP:BLP talk page; but while WP:BLP policy stands as it is, this was a WP:BLP violation by the letter and spirit of that policy. Arguing otherwise is, with respect, the equivalent of putting your head in the sand. --JN466 10:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that the source is not ideal (which is why I replaced it) but I don't think the issue is as black and white as you portray it. WP:BLPSPS does not seem to fit very well with self-published academic work by experts in their fields. If Professor Y, a published expert in his field, publishes a detailed critique on his website of a work by Professor Z, that doesn't really seem to fit into the BLP framework. The subject of the critique is not the individual as a person but a work by that individual (a book, speech, TV show, whatever). On the other hand, if Professor Y uses his website to post biographical claims, that clearly would fall within the BLP framework. But I can't see how a critique of a work, as opposed to biographical claims, would be caught by BLP. Suppose in this case that Professor Abraham had published a scholarly critique of a book by Monckton, rather than a speech. Would that make any difference? If so, why? -- ChrisO (talk) 12:40, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree it feels different if it is a book, rather than a speech; it is less personal. Even so, I believe we wouldn't cite a self-published critique of a scholar's book in the scholar's biography; especially if it is a hostile critique which casts doubt on the author's integrity and competence, as is the case here. Apart from BLP, it comes down to WP:SPS, "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer." But I appreciate you tried your best to find a way for the passage to work. --JN466 00:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- If you approach Wikipedia with a black and white view of things ("the information is in a biography of a living person, therefore all aspects of WP:BLP must apply", for example), then you are only setting yourself up for failure. That statement I wrote in parenthesis is not true. NW (Talk) 12:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change/Evidence#Request_for_a_statement_on_BLP_policy. --JN466 23:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators and is not to be used by others to conduct discusson or debate. Comments by non-admins, and any discussion or debate by other than uninvolved administrators, will be moved to the section above. Adminstrators engaged in extended discussion or debate, especially if not directly related to the proposed outcome, should strongly consider using the above sections.
- A Quest For Knowledge above states that admins are unlikely to rule on this issue because there is an Arbcom case on. This is false. ArbCom has not nullified this board, and it is still the place to take disputes that are not resolvable through the usual channels. That said, I think this issue isn't a clear-cut BLP violation, but a content dispute. I would suggest remanding this case back to the article talk pages, with instructions to play nice with each other. The WordsmithCommunicate 01:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's one possibility. Another would be to point out that KDP seems to be arguing against all comers in quite the tendentious way, and the participants ought to call consensus, and if they're reverted again, ask for protection. Taking it to talk is good. Trying to filibuster isn't. I see why most folk would see this as a BLP violation. And why many folk would be frustrated with the level of argumentativeness from KDP. Sanctionable? Maybe not. But not nice. ++Lar: t/c 02:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I must admit I approached this by belting up my gun and setting of to arrest people abusing sceptic BLPs (again). I found a link to the views of an associate professor (aka "lecturer" in the UK) which were notable and discussed around the place. In my view the wording of the mention was a little POV ("rebutting" etc) the link probably should not go to the presentation (which isn't peer reviewed or anything and is a primary source) but to some of the coverage of it but all in all I am a bit disappointed that everyone went for the mattresses without much attempt to find a compromise text. But I think this is at heart a content dispute where some constructive approach from both sides would help. As For Kim, per one of my children, I would describe him as a "determined" editor, tenditious being a more polemic word but there are other determined editors in CC too. We should close this and send it back to talk. --BozMo talk 08:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I am inclined to topic ban all participants to the Climate Change ArbCom from all Climate Change topics, including talk pages and only excluding reverting obvious vandalism and socking (any ip or new account), until there is a result. I seriously doubt if the world outside WP would be harmed by not having articles updated for a week or so, and it would put an end to this type of behaviour. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- A list of people you would ban please? NW (Talk) 13:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- All parties to the ArbCom case; specifically anyone who has been complained about, for any reason. Everyone can take a step back, and go and do something else. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- A list of people you would ban please? NW (Talk) 13:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- What BozMo and The Wordsmith said. Describing this as a BLP violation is simply wrong. While The Guardian piece might have been a better reference than the professor's website and there is the matter of whether it is necessary to include this information at all, neither is a matter for this board. Oh, and with regard to tendentious editing: nonsense. If we did that, we would have to apply the same to Cla68 for arguing that The Hockey Stick Illusion is a reliable source on multiple pages. Both are simply the respective editor's opinion, and just because they can argue their point well doesn't mean their are acting disruptively or tendentiously. Caveat: I have not seen Cla's edits since last week and am going by memory NW (Talk) 13:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Lar
Request closed - The diffs provided in this request do not demonstrate involvement. Commenting on another editor's behaviour here, during arbitration proceedings or elsewhere does not make an administrator involved. Giving an opinion on suitable sanctions does not make an administrator involved. There is nothing in the diffs provided that ought to prevent Lar from making further comments on editor behaviour or from suggesting or issuing sanctions. CIreland (talk) 16:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Lar
Discussion concerning LarStatement by LarThis is playing the ref, not the ball. (thank you, 2/0, for reminding me of that usage, it's apt) This request should be closed by the other uninvolved admins so we can get back to the important matter in the section just above instead of being diverted. Diversion is a tactic certain factions use routinely, don't let it work here. Uninvolved does not mean blind. I remain uninvolved despite having advanced remedies to correct the many issues that factions continue to cause in this topic area. ++Lar: t/c 12:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning LarAnother fine example of this faction trying to eliminate an admin who is actually trying to address the problems on both sides of this issue. Lar has been the only admin on these pages who has been consistent in his treatment of the Marknutleys vs the WMCs. At times he's been highly critical of Marknutley, TGL and me, not to mention handing out several lengthy sanctions to Mark, but any time he dares point out the elephant in the room, he is subjected to this treatment. This is why it's gotten so far. Lar's treatment by this faction is precisely why arbcom has to be the ones to sanction this group. ATren (talk) 12:07, 21 July 2010 (UTC) Absurd per WP:POINT. Accuses Lar of "posing" where the RFC/U n Lar reached no such conclusion. Uses other colorful words to attempt to disguise the fact this is simply retribution for Lar opining in the WMC case anteceding this. Should be dismissed with extreme prejudice <g> as such. This page is not the place for anything approaching this sort of "request". Collect (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Lar, having made so much effort in the past to move comments from "inappropriate" sections, what should be done with your comments in this section, which I remind you is headed "Comments by others about the request concerning Lar"? In a request about you, you aren't others.. you have your own section above this, all for you. I also wonder about your recusal "as an uninvolved admin" that you posted in the section for uninvolved admins... sorry to have to explain, but you aren't an uninvolved admin when commenting on yourself. It is impossible for you to make any comment "as an uninvolved admin" in this case as you are involved - in just the same way, it is impossible for me to comment as an orange and pink striped aardvark, because (amazingly enough) I am not one. I wouldn't usually note issues like this but given you have made such a lot of noise about posting in the "correct" places, you have wandered into pot and kettle territory. Regarding the analogy you consider so apt, I feel the need to point out the irony. You see, the analogy you misquote is actually about playing the man and not the ball, and it refers to going after a player on the opposing team rather than going for the ball. It has nothing to do with a referee and would make no sense otherwise, as there is no advantage to be gained by taking out a referee instead of playing the ball. You see yourself as the impartial referee, yet you describe as "apt" an analogy in which you cast yourself as a player on the opposing team! Maybe there is more of you that doubts your claims to uninvolvedness than you realise... EdChem (talk) 13:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Mother Mary and Jozef - could everyone involved in these tit-for-tat requests stop it???? Nothing is going to be solved and both "sides" are making themselves look ridiculous. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Lar
"an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions" is written only on content disputes on topic. This needs closing and the discussion on probation terms and personal relations needs taking elsewhere.--BozMo talk 15:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
|
Request concerning ChrisO
Closed: RFE is not the place for fishing for reassurance. --BozMo talk 10:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I'm being accused by other editors of edit-warring, BLP violations and adding "bad sources" against consensus. I'd like to get some clarity on whether I have in fact breached article probation here, so I've submitted this complaint against myself to enable this to be resolved. To summarise, a number of editors complained that the previous version of the Abraham/Monckton paragraph was poorly sourced and worded. I agree with this view and said on this page that the issue could easily be resolved with better sources, [86] one of which BozMo identified in his comments on the enforcement request above [87]. I therefore produced an almost entirely rewritten version of the disputed paragraph, sourcing it to two Guardian articles (including the one identified by BozMo) and using a different and more neutral form of words. I also added material about Monckton's POV to add balance, which the previous version lacked [88] (and compare with [89]). I did not use the disputed reference as a source, since I agreed that it was not an adequate source. Marknutley reverted this three times on the grounds of undue weight, an objection that had not been raised to any significant extent in the previous discussion of the disputed paragraph [90], [91], [92]. I reverted it once, asking MN to discuss it on the talk page first. The article was then protected by SirFozzie. The issues that other editors have raised are:
From my own perspective, I rather feel that I've been jumped on for making an honest constructive effort to resolve a sourcing and wording dispute. Some clarity from the admins here would be helpful. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:16, 22 July 2010 (UTC) Discussion concerning ChrisOComments by others about the request concerning ChrisO
Result concerning ChrisO |