Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Evidence

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Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/William M. Connolley

I notice that, weirdly, ZP5 has ref'd Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/William M. Connolley under "inciviltiy". All of those requets were wrong, and none had anything to do with incivility. This case is likely to have quite enough confusion in it, what is the point in bringing in obvious irrelevance? William M. Connolley (talk) 13:46, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I haven't followed the links and cannot comment on the content, but it says they are offered as examples of editors commenting about your behaviour, which presumably they did whether the charge was proven or not. It seems though that if that is the case, specific diffs of useful comments would have been better. Charges without specific diffs have been referred to on various boards as "mud slinging" I think. Weakopedia (talk) 14:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 15:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) Looks like ZP5 has seen sense [1] William M. Connolley (talk) 15:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

WMC, per WP:NPA, I don't see how comments like "weirdly" and "ZP5 has seen sense" address the topic at hand, which is your civility. As always, please stay focused on content and avoid discussing the users, which may help you avoid disruptive inappropriate comments WP:TALK. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 16:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

focused on content and avoid discussing the users - for someone who has jsut added 70 diffs *only* addressing user issues, that it deeply ironic William M. Connolley (talk) 16:35, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I find it ironic, that you as the subject here, who purports to care about the project and the length of this case, has not voluntarily removed or corrected themselves in the climate change articles. But, may chose defend to the end, taking the community time with them. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Quit it. Both of you are unnecessarily trying to antagonizing each other and taking the others' bait. WMC asked a valid question, Weakopedia clarified, and ZP5 removed. Let's leave it at that. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 17:55, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Err no. I asked why ZP5 added some obvious irrelevance; Weakopedia said something wrong; then ZP5 removed the irrelevance. There is no clarification in Weakopedia's comment, just muddying of the waters. Meanwhile, has not voluntarily removed or corrected themselves in the climate change articles is incomprehensible William M. Connolley (talk) 20:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Whether you found Weakopedia's comment to be helpful or not is a different matter, but the fact remains that nonconstructive back-and-forths have no place here. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 20:50, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Climate Change RFE references

Would be easier (and more accurate) to simply link ALL of the filings with a summary of the case. Ravensfire (talk) 15:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Easier who and for what purpose? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

For the purpose of not trying to equate scientific knowledge, no matter how inconvenient some of it is, with just one person. --Nigelj (talk) 08:55, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you explain how your statement is relevant? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 13:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

ZP5's evidence

ZP5 has spammed so many diffs it is hard to know where to begin. So I'll begin at the beginning. The first two of his diffs are:

• [2]. Someone asks if the page is suitable for PR; I say no, since it fails stability, having just come off page prot. There is no incivility there (while we're on the PR request, the reviews incomprehension of what ZP5 is trying to say - see Wikipedia:Peer review/Scientific opinion on climate change/archive1 - is instructive).
• [3] No incivility there either.

In short, ZP5 appears to have submitted a meaningless list of harmless diffs, rpesumably as mudflinging William M. Connolley (talk) 20:32, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I have to admit, I'm puzzled at exactly what one is supposed to read into this diff from the list submitted by ZuluPapa5. Maybe he could enlighten us as to how this demonstrates problematic editing? MastCell ^Talk 20:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Each diff demonstrates WMC objections with his "no" or "not" language. In each example WMC has written "no" or "not". Together they show he's highly objectionable in this single article. Would you have a suggestion as to how I could improve the presentation of this point? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 21:00, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If you find a diff where WMC avoided "no" or "not" in his language, then I will remove it. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

(a) attempting to ban the word "no" from wiki is unlikely to be fruitful (b) MastCell has already provided you with such a diff William M. Connolley (talk) 21:31, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Wait... so saying "no" or "not" is uncivil? 198.161.174.222 (talk) 22:10, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Tendentious objecting (i.e. excessive no and not) indicates authoritative ownership behavior, which is in contrast to Wikipedia guidance on WP:OWN and principles of WP:COPY. If you contribute, you must offer consent and compromise to other's reasonable changes without your OR. In addition, above all you must consent to civil means. I suggest providing evidence that shows collaboration to counter this claim. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 23:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

No. There is no need to compromise with wrong position, and such a claim is outright nonsense. And that does not change if the same nonsense comes up once or thousands of times, and disagreeing with it is no more false or uncivil the thousands time than the first time. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:18, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Consistently endorsing that WMC is the owner of the correct POV, is my cause for concern with Stephan Schulz. Such a view would produce climate change articles that have WMC's narrow POV. Generally, the false precendent here is that the owners of the correct POV are entitled to treating others badly to exclude their sourced POV, by some expert status, but for civility. This is the essence of authoritarianism. Thankfully, i have faith Wikipedia is better than that and holds a high value on civil behavior to achieve a NPOV. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 23:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not "consistently endorsing the fact that WMC is the owner of the correct POV" - that's nonsense. I'm sharing with him and all the major academies of science, not to mention the overwhelming majority of the scientific literature, a certain broad view on climate change. I cannot parse your second sentence. But simply attaching a source to a statement does not make it verifiable. The source also needs to support the statement. And it needs to be a reliable, non-fringe source, of course. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

How does using the words "no" and "not" violate WP:COPY again? I'm becoming more, rather than less, confused. MastCell ^Talk 23:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Tendentious objecting (i.e. excessive no and not) indicates authoritative ownership behavior. WP:OWN stems from WP:COPY see WP:5 where is says editors do not own their content (to the point of tendentious). Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 23:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

ZP5, I'd like to make sure I understand your concerns. Is your main point that WMC has made too many comments that use the words "no" and "not"? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Try ... my concern is WMC and WP:OWN in case you didn't hear that. The "no" and "not" is symptomatic of an editor who demands rights to control the content without compromise. "Wikipedia contributors are editors, not authors, and no one, no matter how skilled, has the right to act as if they are the 'owner of a particular article." Would you, or any one else, suggest any other way to demonstrate WMC's article ownership concerns? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:55, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The title of your evidence section says hostile, not alledged ownership. I got confused by your evidence as the examples were not hostile or abusive. You probably need to consider changing the title of your evidence.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 01:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Specifically this subsection title "Example of WMC hostile edits in a single article" confused me a little. Anyhow, looks like the talk page throughout this arbcom is going to be endless arguing. Sigh.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 02:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

(e.c.) I agree with Lg and others who have expressed concern. As far as I can tell there are a few problematic diffs there, but they get lost in the dozens you posted, and it's still not clear to me what exactly you mean by "no and not". Perhaps you should organize and formulate your evidence in your private userspace before posting here. There is going to be a ton of evidence in this case, and we have to be sure to keep it as clear and concise as possible. ATren (talk) 02:07, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

To me, excessive negativity is hostile, a bad karma king of thing. Who but an owner would require such uncivil means in wikipedia to work with others by abruptly negating their contributions, with revert first, talk later. I agree, the presentation can be improved. Thanks for the feed back. Think of the child who says "no, no, no you can not play in my sandbox", then calls you names. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You ask who, and I would say, someone who knows exactly what they are talking about. A modern, advanced and complex scientific discipline, like climate science, is not equivalent a child's plaything. We do not all have an equal ability (or right) to be able to join in such a process without any particular knowledge or expertise. That right is earned by long, hard study, application, dedication, reading, practising, discussion and so on. The climate science articles are not a sandbox. --Nigelj (talk) 09:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Where do WMC's rights to treat other editors uncivilly with personal attacks, bad faith assumptions and plain rudely biting newbies come from?Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 13:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Well said. I suggest you put something like this as a proposed finding of fact/principle later... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Surely wikipedia should prize "good karma" over scientifically accurate articles? Doesn't that go without saying? William M. Connolley (talk) 09:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Again for IDHT, I have faith that Wikipedia prizes civility to produce a NPOV. Karma says ...where there is smoke, there is fire.Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 13:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Might I suggest this thread has long passed its use-by date? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

SHould we assume the arbs have read it? They maintain their usual cryptic silence so it is hard to know William M. Connolley (talk) 15:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Part II - the socks!

Re [4]. Apparently I'm now responsible for some unknown individual creating socks to impersonate me: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/GoRight. Strange days indeed William M. Connolley (talk) 14:11, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

It is unfortunate how uncivil behavior can breed further uncivil behavior (i.e. karma, with smile). Better responsibility with your POV, would benefit the articles. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 15:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You're making excuses for sockpuppeteers? William M. Connolley (talk) 15:56, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I pray to make you aware of how your behavior affects others. The earth's future rests in civility before climate science. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 16:07, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Just a reminder to all parties that this page is for the discussion of evidence, not discussion of each other. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 17:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

That SPI request is languishing. Do we have no CU's reading any of these pages who might perhaps help out? William M. Connolley (talk) 08:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Since GoRight SPI questions have been brought up here, this is his response to the charges. ATren (talk) 12:18, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

WMC, you seem awfully eager to push this Cu ... a little too eager of you ask me. WVBluefield (talk) 19:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The point is moot, since the checkuser has been completed and the case archived. The socks in question were generally using open proxies to camouflage any link to existing accounts, so not much else can be said definitively. Perhaps we can move on? MastCell ^Talk 19:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Should User:GoRight be unblocked and allowed to participate here?

User:GoRight is i.m.o. a good example of how a sceptical editor can develop into a "problem editor" from the point of view of other editors. Having him participate here could give a better perspective on how and why this happens. The tendency is to say that such editors who have been blocked are "disruptive editors". But I think we should look beyond that see if having better rules can make it less likely that editors start to behave in problematic ways in the future. Count Iblis (talk) 02:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, he wanted a Climate Change Arbcom case, and was caught in a vindictive ban while seeking one. His ban should be injuncted. He didn't bring this case. He's been on good behavior, he has a very strong respect for Wikipedia principles. His POV is irrelevant. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

GoRight has commented on this issue at his blog. Pete Tillman (talk) 05:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with CI. GoRight perfectly demonstrates how good faith editors are hounded for years and eventually banned for responding badly to the baiting. Though I'm not sure I support unbanning for this case -- it would probably cause too much of a distraction from the main issues, and he probably wouldn't go for it anyway given his comments on his blog (he indicates he fully intends to serve out his ban). I think it would be best to deal with GoRight's mistreatment here in a completely separate case, since it's bound to be very large in terms of evidence. ATren (talk) 12:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

GoRight's participation in dispute resolution was consistently unproductive and problematic - in fact, I think that was one of the major reasons for his ban. As such, I don't think unbanning him to participate in an ArbCom case is likely to help matters in any way. As best I can tell, his ban has been the subject of extensive review, up to and including the ArbCom ban-review panel, and so I'm not sure what stones are left to be productively turned over on the subject. MastCell ^Talk 19:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

If GoRight would care to draft something, I would consider entering it in this case. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 20:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I would strongly encourage you not do so, since it would perfectly fit the definition of proxying for a banned user. MastCell ^Talk 20:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that if this user is banned and wants to contribute evidence that he should contact ArbCom and let them decide.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 21:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

THat is the correct way to do things. ZuluPapa5, do not edit by proxy for banned or blocked editors. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 21:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Corrections

HIP, I appreciation the corrections; however, technically best to talk here so others may not be tempted to invade my space. Clerks, I am ok with HIP edits. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the note. Heyitspeter, it's better to discuss perceived errors in someone's contribution rather than edit it for them. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 04:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah this was discussed on my talkpage. tl;dr: I'm sorry about that. Selftrouted. (And one of my 'corrections' was incorrect!) --Heyitspeter (talk) 22:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Stephan Schulz evidence

The evidence on Stephan Schulz is illuminating, could you provide a diff? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 12:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is a link about the SS. I hope this link makes it clear that that is not an appropriate way to refer to someone. But I suspect you are looking for the source of Cla68's evidence on the main page - not that your request makes this clear. Cla has provided a (mislabeled) link to the diff in the attribution of the quote. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Apologies. In addition, I found your original diff Cla68. Stephan Schulz you may remove your misunderstanding. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Which misunderstanding? And please, if you absolutely need to edit text someone has replied to, use strikeout or leave a clear comment. Thanks. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Partiality

I notice that JWB has put in his evidence against PG:

User:Polargeo, an administrator, has been repeatedly disruptive... This complaint resulted in sanctions for disruption on the WP:GSCCRE page [5]

This seems curiously partial: somehow, the "sanction" that Lar received in the same RFE doesn't deserve a mention. Could it perhaps be the case that JWB is happy to excuse behaviour from "his side" that he considers sanctionable in others? William M. Connolley (talk) 16:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm still in the process of adding evidence on Polargeo, and I don't consider the evidence to be final until the deadline for submitting evidence passes, so what's there now should be regarded as a draft. I may add to and subtract from it. Somehow, somehow, I feel there will be someone out there who will be alleging violations of some behavioral policy by Lar. Quite possibly you or Polargeo or both or someone else. Hasn't Polargeo already done so? I have limited time and a lot of concerns. And I have no obligation to bring up complaints against all editors, now do I? I'm sure that somehow ArbCom members will get wind that editors would like them to look into Lar's actions, and that is very likely to happen without my assistance. Since you seem to have a standard that complaining editors here need to complain about everyone, I eagerly await your complaints about Polargeo's behavior, and his complaints about yours. As it stands now, I don't know of any behavior on Lar's part that warrants an ArbCom sanction, and I'm not going to waste my time investigating Lar based on your recommendation. You're already wasting my time. Surely a scientifically knowledgeable person such as yourself has better things to do on Wikipedia than pester editors with contrived standards of fairness. Personally, I'm much happier dealing with content than making complaints about other editors. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

You're already wasting my time. Hmm, interesting comment. Obviously you don't regard that as incivil. It isn't clear to me why calling you out for clear partiallity is a waste of time. Surely a scientifically knowledgeable person such as yourself has better things to do on Wikipedia than pester editors with contrived standards of fairness - Thank you for the ack; however I'm not seeing the "contrived" aspect. I think your vehemence here is a tacit acknowledgement of a hit. Personally, I'm much happier dealing with content than making complaints about other editors - then I suggest you do so William M. Connolley (talk) 18:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

@WMC, I think the proper way to respond is to present the evidence you think is missing. This is where each side argues their own case; to expect a balanced treatment is unrealistic. @JWB, the "you're already wasting my time" comment is unhelpful, as is the sarcasm in the following sentence. How about if both of you pull in your horns and focus on presenting your own evidence. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it wasn't sarcastic. I do believe there's a scientifically knowledgeable person behind that keyboard, just as I believe he's pestering about contrived standards of fairness, and who doesn't believe he's wasting my time? I'd be quite happy for him to edit some science article related to climate change. The bald facts are much more bizarre than any sarcasm I could scare up. Oh, look at the time. Got some diffs to gather. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I am more than happy with JWBs diffs. They are a good cross section of some of the complaints I have had with Lar's actions as an enforcement admin. Yes they are clearly a smear to discredit my integrity but I genuinely believe Lar's actions in CC enforcement to have been motivated by misconceptions and an attempt to push forward his preferred version of CC articles through attempting to eliminate those who he personally regards as disruptive (ie the "science cabal") Lar then ends up with a rag tag bunch of supporters some of whom are exactly the sort of nutcases he then ends up having to deal with in sanctions. It is a terrible situation. Polargeo (talk) 22:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)