Wikipedia talk:No original research

Deletion of examples of primary sources from PSTS

SV tightened up PSTS and removed quite a number of examples of primary sources. Here's the original list, most of which has been removed: " Other examples include archeological artifacts; photographs; historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; original philosophical works; religious scripture; published notes of laboratory and field experiments or observations written by the person(s) who conducted or observed the experiments; and artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos, and television programs." I thought this list was useful. Since editors can delete material based on its being a primary source, it seems like it might be useful to have these examples so that editors have a clear idea what sources are primary. TimidGuy (talk) 12:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of the excessive examples because including a long list of examples (as opposed to just a couple) creates a misleading impression (at least for some people) that anything not on the list is not primary, or less likely to be so. We need to describe the principle of what is primary, then give at most a couple of examples, and let editorial common sense take over from there. Crum375 (talk) 13:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Being supported by a primary source is not sufficient reason, by itself, to delete material, although it could be a factor. I hope TimidGuy isn't going around deleting every primary-source-supported statement he/she sees. --Jc3s5h (talk) 14:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The guideline now fails to give any guidance as to if a scientific paper is a primary or secondary source. Since these are very widely-used sources, removing them from the list of examples probably wasn't a good idea. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It hasn't been removed. It's in footnote 2. People were complaining about the length and wanted to see the list removed entirely. As a compromise, I moved it to a footnote. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 18:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I suppose this might be covered by the entry on "notes" about experiments, but laboratory notes are different from scientific papers. I've changed this to read "descriptions of experiments or observations written by the people who conducted or observed the experiments", which should cover both research papers and lab notes. However, this won't cover the material in the introduction of the paper where the authors review other people's work and describe the field, this material is probably a secondary source, even if the data itself and the authors' interpretation of their data is a primary source. Confusing huh? :) Tim Vickers (talk) 18:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, that makes sense. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I see that this (IMO reasonable) change has been reverted as being too broad. CBM, if you would, please tell me how my own initial paper about what I personally saw happen in my lab in a novel experiment could possibly be anything other than a primary source. Being an eyewitness to a train wreck in my lab doesn't seem to me to be any different than being an eyewitness to a train wreck down the street. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It's clearly a primary source. To try to address this problem, I replaced "An account of a traffic accident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the accident" (which is not that helpful an example: how many traffic accident reports by witnesses are cited in Wikipedia?) with the far more helpful and apropos "An account of a scientific experiment written by the researchers who conducted the experiment is a primary source of information about the experiment." I also removed the mention of experiments from the footnote, as it's now redundant. Eubulides (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The notes and data are primary sources. However, because of the arcane way that our policies are written, any "interpretation" or "analysis" in your paper has to be counted as a secondary source. Because the policy here says "all interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, ...".

Example: suppose you measure heat increasing during an experiment, and you write in your paper, "Because the temperature increased, the reaction is exothermic". If we classified that explanation as a primary source, we have to say something like

According to XXX, the temperature increased because the reaction was exothermic" [1]

But in reality our article would just say

The temperature increased because the reaction is exothermic.[1]

I realize this is stupid, but it's the way the policy page happens to be written: the analysis and interpretation in papers is a secondary source for our purposes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:40, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I am OK with "account of an experiment", but we have to be careful of the point I just raised. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It seems like an unpublished account from a scientist, for example on the scientist's website, is a primary source, whereas an account published in a scientific journal is a secondary source because it comes from the journal and not the scientist. Perhaps something along this line is a way it can be clarified in the policy. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The mere act of publishing an account in a peer-reviewed scientific journal does not magically turn a primary source into a secondary source. What counts is that it's a first-hand account, by the investigator who did the experiment. My edit tried to make this clear. Also, I noticed that the page had zero examples of secondary sources (though it had examples of both primary and tertiary). This was pretty confusing, so I added one. Eubulides (talk) 20:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree with Eubulides.

Also, putting something on your own website is "publishing" it. If a paper is a primary source when I self-publish it, it's still a primary source when it's published in a newspaper, magazine, or scholarly journal. It's the same words.

Bob, based on your comments, I'm going to assume that you're not a researcher. In the sciences, the journal doesn't -- and can't -- know whether or not you're telling lies. They have no way of checking up on your work. The peers are never shown your lab notes. The notion of peer review is more like "Assuming she's telling the truth under "Methods" and "Data", then these "Conclusions" seems reasonable to me (or: Given that she didn't tell us how she did ____, then we have no clue whether these conclusions are reasonable)." Peer review is not magic; it is, in fact, quite fallible. It's just that, in common with what is said about democracy, it's the worst possible system except for all the others. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Well, that was interesting. I think it's time for me to leave. Pardon my interruption. Bye. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) I must disagree with Carl's analysis. A journal article by a scientist who conducted an experiment is mostly a primary source. We can use it, with due caution. We can use anything in the paper, whether it is reporting of facts or interpretive. The part in our policy about "all interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, ...". means that a Wikipedia editor is not allowed to interpret, analyze, or synthesize information from primary sources to reach a novel result not contained in the sources. Of course, if there is a result that can be derived from the primary sources that is not stated in any of them, we will have to find it in a reliable secondary source before we can put it in an article. But the reason it has to be a secondary source is not a rule we made up, it is a logical consequence that since it is synthesizing primary sources, it is by definition a secondary source. But if there is synthesis already present in the primary (or mostly primary) source, we can just use it. No need to go looking for it in a (mostly) secondary source. --Jc3s5h (talk) 21:16, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You would think so, but I have seen people claim the opposite: that even if a primary source includes interpretation or analysis we can't use that interpretation or analysis, and instead he have to find a different source for it. That is, the policy does not include the words "not contained in the sources" relating to analysis and interpretation that you included in your post.

Of course we do use journal articles for their interpretation and analysis. Conclusion: the parts of the journals that we use for interpretation and analysis are secondary sources for us. This is fine because the same source can be both a primary source (for data) and a secondary source (for analysis of that data). It would be better if the policy were phrased differently, but things are what they are. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I sort of agree with this reasoning, although it seems that CBM's tweak of the page conveys the opposite impression - that the interpretation section of a research article is primary. Primary and secondary depend upon context (see Primary_sources#Classifying_sources). There's a tendency to oversimplify and say that "research articles = primary" and "review articles = secondary" (see Wikipedia:MEDRS#Definitions, or Eubulides' recent change). The problem is not only Carl's point, but also the point noted by Tim that research articles have substantial introduction/discussion sections. This secondary information is often more up-to-date and focused on a particular topic than review articles (which are more rare and often written by individuals rather than teams). Following Carl's reasoning (if I understand correctly) it should be noted that investigative journalism articles are primary and that scholarly reviews are primary sources for their synthetic conclusions (reviews are primary for everything except their repeats of another articles' statement).

The NOR policy page currently says that an article should not be based primarily on primary sources. A plain secondary source of a primary conclusion, by definition, does not add value, because when value is added the article becomes a primary source for its novel conclusions. Citing a secondary source which parrots a primary source makes the reader do extra work and misleads the reader; it gives the reader little impression of the actual research underlying the claim. For example, a review which cites a small study or two to support a conclusion is not really more reliable than the research it cites. Another example: if I find a review which incidentally cites a metaanalysis, do I cite the review or the metaanalysis? I cite the metaanalysis. If the metaanalysis is used in connection with a novel conclusion, I cite the review. Citing secondary sources rather than the original source can make the editors work harder: if I recall correctly (this was a while ago), at water fluoridation Eubulides cited a "mini-summary" of a huge review to support a key statement. This summary was from a specialized journal not available to anyone else, Eubulides would not email it, and it turned out that after we got ahold of it the "mini-summary" cited another review (Worthington & Clarkson 2003 I believe), which may have cited another article to support its statement. When I've written my own papers, I try to show both the secondary source and its citation whenever possible. Unfortunately this is more work and not conveniently done with footnotes. Incidentally, Bjorn Lomborg was widely blasted for his use of secondary sources, which made it harder for people to check his sources, even though he was meticulous about page numbers. Obviously it's not really feasible to cite a lot of research articles on many areas, but it's not necessarily a bad thing if the topic is small. II | (t - c) 23:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Carl, the conclusions I draw from my data are still primary. For example: We'll run an experiment on methods of making friends. To half the people in the lunchroom, I'll talk about baking natural sourdough bread. To the other half, I'll talk about baking chocolate cake. We'll record their responses, and control for reasonable factors, such as the presence of incubators in the victim's -- I mean, the participant's lab.

I'll present data -- overall, people are more responsive to chocolate cake than to sourdough bread; the range of responses is broader for bread than for cake -- and I'll conclude something (probably that anyone who's ever cleaned a fungal infection out of an incubator is unlikely to be cordial if you even mention bread baking).

Every bit of this is a primary source, not just the data. I'm not getting my conclusions from another party, and therefore the conclusions are still part of my first-person, first-party, primary source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Responded below. However, let me say that even if a new history book includes an original theory about the U.S. Civil War, no new history book can possibly be a primary source about the Civil War. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:30, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

True: a modern book is not a primary source for the war. It is, however, a primary source for the author's new theory about the war. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:47, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

It might be worth mentioning the fact that a given publication might be both primary and secondary, e.g., the many "case report and review of the literature" papers for rare diseases.

Additionally, if we want to be on firmer ground with review articles, we could say that specifically narrative reviews are secondary sources. A meta-analysis or at least certain types of systematic reviews could be understood as a primary source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing: an original research article is not a secondary source for its own conclusions. It is a primary source for its own conclusions, just as a witness in a court case is a primary source for the witness's own conclusions. A research article's "related work" section may be a secondary source for other researchers' work, but that's a completely different matter. (These "related work" sections are typically less reliable than review articles, because they're not the focus of their authors or their reviewers.) Eubulides (talk) 06:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

That is a reasonable position, it just doesn't fit with "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation" from the policy. Clearly the data in a research paper is a primary source. If we declare a researcher's conclusions about that data to also be a primary source, then we cannot use the researcher's own interpretation as a source for the interpretation of the data. Note that the sentence above, which I copied from the policy right now, has no caveats or exceptions: it directly says that any interpretation of primary source data has to come from a secondary source. The simplest solution to make the written policy match actual practice is to treat interpretive sections in research papers as secondary sources. If you would like to treat them as primary sources, then the sentence I quoted above will need to be qualified somehow. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, if we are too liberal in the scope of "primary source", we run into issues with "Do not base articles entirely on primary sources.". There are plenty of articles that are sourced only to peer-reviewed journal articles, and that is not a deletion concern. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Sigh... Once again, we are sidetracked by focusing on whether something is Primary or Secondary... when the important thing is whether we are using the source appropriately or misusing the source in a way that constitutes OR. It does not matter whether a scientific journal article is Primary or Secondary (or a little of both)... because OR is not determined by whether the source is Primary or Secondary. It is not OR to cite a primary source. It is not OR to discuss what a scientist says in a published journal. It is not OR to discuss a researcher's published interpretation of his or her data... although we should attribute that interpretation to make it clear that the interpretation being discussed is that of the researcher. The whole point of NOR is that we may not include our interpretations. Yes, we need to be careful, because it is easy to cross the line between discussing the researcher's interpretation and discussing our own interpretation. But as long as we are careful, and don't cross that line, there is no problem. Blueboar (talk) 15:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's the point, but it's not what the page actually says. The PSTS section is very emphatic that interpretation must come from a "secondary" source. I would be happy to see that fixed, but at the very least we have to be realistic about what the policy actually says. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Well... yes and no... the policy allows for descriptive statements about what is contained in Primary sources... so to the extent that a Primary source contains an interpretation, it is appropriate to give a basic description of that interpretation (and I would say that part of that description should contain clear attribution so the reader knows who's interpretation we are describing). What the policy is trying to clarify is the fine line that exists between mearly describing (ie summarizing) what the source says (which might include an interpretation of something else) and going beyond the source and inserting our own interpretation of what the source says. Blueboar (talk) 17:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

That's a very good point, Blueboar. I've tried to re-focus that part of the policy on the novelty of interpretations, to deal with this issue. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Tim Vickers: well done. --Jc3s5h (talk) 19:08, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

A description of an interpretation isn't an interpretation; it's a description. Primary sources can't be used in an interpretive way. We can only use them to say, "A says x." But we also need a secondary source to tell us that it matters that A says x, something that A alone can't act as a source for. A alone cannot be used to say, "This is what I say, and furthermore what I say is important." That is to misuse the primary source -- to use it as though it's a secondary source. That's the point of this section. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 19:51, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The two versions have the same meaning, so I'm not worried which we use (although I think focusing on novelty is clearer). They are the same since any source that makes a new interpretation of a primary source is, by definition, a secondary source. Therefore you can either say, "no new interpretations of primary sources" or say "all interpretations of primary sources must be cited to secondary sources" - the two formulations are exactly equivalent. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't quite see what would be meant by "new" or "novel". It's any interpretive (analytic or synthetic) use of a primary source that's problematic. What this means is we can't use a primary source to say: "Scientists have shown that x," because it's just one study that claims to show x, and there's no indication that's it's a study that's taken seriously. That's misusing a primary source to make an interpretive claim. It's not connected to whether it's new or not, unless I'm misunderstanding the point. We also have to avoid a primary source to say more specifically, "Scientists at University X showed in 2010 that ...," unless we have secondary sources telling us that that study is worth mentioning. Again, to use the primary source alone would be original research—meaning a Wikipedian substituting himself for a secondary source, and turning Wikipedia into a secondary source. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 20:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"Novel" means "not previously published elsewhere". It is equally problematic to make novel interpretations of secondary or tertiary sources - "The Encyclopedia Britannica says that the Earth is not perfectly round,^{Ref to EB} which implies a pushing force at the poles." It is new interpretations made by a Wikipedia editors that are the problem, not what classification of source they happen to be based on. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree, regarding "novel." But the point about primary sources is that they shouldn't be used for any interpretive (analytic or synthetic or evaluative) claims at all, unlike secondary sources, which can be so used. See below. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 21:17, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

More examples

Re Blueboar: Here is a more concrete example. Suppose that I am writing an article on some notable mathematical topic X. Suppose that I want to include the fact that Joe Smith proved that every X has property Y. Normally, I would do so like this:

Every X has property Y (Smith 2000).

However this goes against the "descriptive" limitation in NOR, which SlimVirgin summarizes as "We can only use [primary sources] to say, 'A says x'." According to that interpretation of NOR, my article would have to say,

According to Smith (2000), every X is a Y.

That not only fails to cover our actual practice, but it's genuinely bad. The second phrasing strongly suggests to our reader that there is a reason to doubt the claim, or that other people claim other things, and thus presents an NPOV problem if nobody actually doubts the result is correct. Moreover, there is no way to integrate method (2) into a list of properties of X (if property Y is just one of many). So, to the extent that the NOR policy says the second way must be used, it's wrong. I agree with you that the problem is caused by trying to shoehorn things into "primary" and "secondary" in the first place. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

You must not use Smith alone to say "Every X has property Y (Smith 2000). That's misusing a primary source. You need a secondary source to show that Smith is worth mentioning in this regard. Smith may have said it, but may be talking nonsense, or may be a non-notable source, or may be out of date, or it may not be the whole story -- and the Wikipedian adding it might not have realized this. Hence the importance of secondary sources. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 20:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

No, you are misunderstanding the role of secondary sources. We need secondary sources to establish the notability of an article topic. Once the topic is notable, we do not need secondary sources to establish the worth of every piece of information included in the article. The decision about what to include is completely a matter of editorial discretion, subject to NPOV and the goal of writing an encyclopedia. In particular, we routinely include material sourced to journal articles without even thinking to look for a secondary source that says the same thing. Not all of the material that belongs on Wikipedia can be found in textbooks or other secondary sources. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:48, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

For an entirely non-contentious point, it would be okay to use a primary source in the way you describe. But for anything that might be contentious, or anything that moves from the specific to the general, you need a secondary source that discusses it. For example:

• Professor Smith (2000) says that every X is a Y.
• The Giant Turnip Society (2010) says that God is a giant turnip and that SlimVirgin is his representative on Earth.

In both cases, you have to give the reader some reason to believe both (a) that Professor Smith and the Giant Turnip Society are people we should listen to, and (b) that the specific claims they make about X or God or SlimVirgin are claims regarded by others (not just by a Wikipedian) as worthy of mention. The essence of the NOR policy is that Wikipedia itself should not be a primary or secondary source. It should be a tertiary source. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 21:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is an even more specific example. The featured article Germanium says,

Germanium has been detected in the atmosphere of Jupiter [48]

The reference is to a journal paper that analyzed data from a Voyager probe. The article does not say,

According to Kunde et al., Germanium has been detected in the atmosphere of Jupiter [48]

The paper referenced is certainly a primary source. Our (featured) article does not make any attempt to show why we should care who these people are, or why the topic of Jupiter's atmosphere is worthy of mention in an article on Germanium. The claims you are making are simply not accurate regarding our actual use of journal articles on Wikipedia. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't have to say, "according to X" in the text. It does need a secondary source. A primary source can be used alone if it's entirely non-contentious, but if it's a widely accepted point, there will be a secondary source anyway. It needn't actually be attributed to a secondary source, but it must be attributable. If no secondary source can be found for a point you want to make, you're engaged in OR. The question then is whether it's a trivial point that no one is going to challenge, which is an issue for WP:V. But if you're challenged and can't produce a secondary source, you would have to remove it. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 21:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Everything in Wikipedia must be verifiable, but it is simply false that everything in Wikipedia must be verifiable via a secondary source. No policy has ever taken that position, and it is completely at odds with general practice. You're also incorrect that the Germanium article would "have to remove" a fact such as this if a secondary source could not be provided; the source provided, a peer-reviewed paper announcing that Germanium was detected around Jupiter, completely meets the requirements of WP:V. If you do not understand our actual best practices regarding the use of journal articles, you should think twice about writing about them in the NOR policy. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

This policy has always taken that position, and you've always argued against it. Are you seriously arguing that, if only one primary source says X was detected near Planet Y, and no other source existed, it would still be regarded as credible? No. Sorry, but that's just wrong. I can assure you that if someone submitted a claim at FA that was challenged, and it could be sourced only to one primary source, and no other source existed that even alluded to it, it would be removed. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 21:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, a peer-reviewed paper is generally considered credible unless there is a reason to think otherwise. The article I pointed is an FA. However - and this is also important - the standards at FA are often higher than policy requires, and so simply because something would not pass FA does not mean that it violates policy. But the example I provided is an FA anyway. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

But the claim in the primary source in the FA is attributable to a secondary source. If it is not, it could be challenged as OR, if it is a contentious point. Note the difference between attributed and attributability; verified and verifiable. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 23:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

No. There is nothing in WP:NOR nor WP:V that requires everything to be attributable to a secondary source. If there was such a rule, I am sure it would already be mentioned in either WP:V or PSTS. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:02, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing that requires attributability to a primary source per se, but the source must be appropriate for the situation. If the situation is contentious, you need a secondary source. Same for a new discovery which is only mentioned on a primary source — its importance (if any) and perspective would require a secondary source, one that writes about the primary source. Crum375 (talk) 00:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You're arguing this way because you do a lot of work using primary sources. But I guarantee you that, if someone else were doing it in a way you disagreed with, and you asked for a secondary source to support his point, and found that none existed -- that not one single source anywhere in the world had seen fit to repeat the information in the primary source -- you would insist it be removed, and it wouldn't simply be a notability issue. It would be because it was OR. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like an NPOV issue. Content within an article is never a notability issue; "notability" only refers to article topics. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Re Crum. To take a specific example: there is no requirement that a new scientific discovery must be discussed in secondary sources before it is cited to primary sources here. The article topic must be notable, but if there is some important new result that is only cited to primary sources, it is pretty much always included despite not being attributable to secondary sources. Here "important" means in the consensus of the editors who are evaluating the page for NPOV. Examples:

• When a new theorem is proved, or an important new experimental result is obtained, it is usually included in the article here once it is verifiable, regardless whether it is in a secondary source yet.
• When a person dies, we wait until their death is verifiable, but not until it is mentioned in secondary sources. In academia, passings are often announced via email lists and university news services. We try to wait until there is some reliable, public announcement, but it will rare to even have a newspaper story for months after the death.

— Carl (CBM · talk) 00:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Random break

I think we have two issues here.

1. WP:NOR does not talk about contentiousness. The nearest thing is limiting itself to things that do not serve to advance a new position, but that relates to things not explicitly stated in sources. The existence of Germanium in the atmosphere of Jupiter is stated in the source.
2. The paper on Germanium in the atmosphere will have been peer-reviewed. This means that some non-authors have agreed with what it is saying.

Perhaps the rules on primary sources should be slackened off on non-contentious statements from peer-reviewed papers. Yaris678 (talk) 22:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) SlimVirgin's standard is unrealistic. Of course a particular journal article or the like (whether primary or secondary) can be shown to be not credible, either by being contradicted by better sources, or by being shown to be unsupported by any other source on a matter where support would be expected. But SlimVirgin is essentially saying "don't add anything unless it is clear it would win any challenge that might come along". That is unnecessary. Being stated in a primary source on an uncontentious matter is sufficient to include in Wikipedia, even if it does not guarantee it will win any discussion that might happen on the article's talk page.

A further point is that if something appears in a primary source published by a reliable publisher, it is certainly not original research and any criteria for excluding it should be covered in some other policy. --Jc3s5h (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I said they're fine for uncontentious points. But if its use is challenged, and if no secondary source exists, you would have to remove it, because picking and choosing which primary sources to use without secondary-source back-up, is OR, for obvious reasons. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 22:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"Picking and choosing which primary sources to use without secondary-source back-up, is OR, for obvious reasons" is incorrect. Picking and choosing sources is source-based research, not original research. It can be well-done, or badly done. It can be done in a neutral manner, or a partisan manner. It is wrong to indicate that any kind of bad writing in Wikipedia is original research. --Jc3s5h (talk) 22:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

That is incorrect. Any use of primary sources to present or create significant new information not already covered by secondary sources is original research, because even though the primary source may have been reviewed by peers, we still need a secondary source writing about that primary source and putting it in perspective for us. Otherwise, we'd be acting as a secondary source ourselves, and that's not our mission — Wikipedia is a tertiary source. Crum375 (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with Crum375. Original research only occurs when an editor creates significant new information. This policy expands this to include information that appears to be original research because the editor didn't provide a citation. If the information already exists in sources that can be cited in Wikipedia, it isn't original research. It would be original research to give the information a different degree of certainty than could be inferred either by the explicit statements in the source, or the nature of a source. --Jc3s5h (talk) 22:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

If a statement is challenged or likely to be challenged, it requires a source. If we only rely on a primary source to create or present significant new information, we are creating an implication (stated or just implied) that this new information is significant, or important. But this is the role of a secondary source, to (among others) provide context for primary sources and put them in perspective. If we do it ourselves, we are engaging in original research. Crum375 (talk) 23:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

We use editorial judgement, enlightened by and based on sources, to decide what to put into articles. However, in the end there is always editorial discretion to decide which things to include. There is no basis in written policy or in practice for the idea that WP:V requires secondary sources for challenged material. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I do understand Slim's point about the notability of the source... but that is a WP:NPOV (and specifically WP:UNDUE) issue, and not a WP:NOR issue. Saying "Professor Smith says that every X is a Y (cite to where Smith says every X is a Y)" may well be giving Smith undue weight, but it isn't Original Research to note that Smith says it.

This is yet another reason why I support the idea of spinning PSTS off into its own Policy/Guideline page... there are issues that relate to PSTS that do not relate to the concept of "No Original Research", and they are out of place and confusing to people when discussed here. Blueboar (talk) 23:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It is an NOR issue, because the Wikipedian is selecting primary sources, rather than selecting secondary sources who discuss them. We are a tertiary source. Our work should almost always be at secondary source level. I'm finding it quite disturbing that anyone is arguing that this is not a key part of OR. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 23:45, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Slim... I am finding it disturbing that anyone would argue that the notability of a source is an NOR issue. I do not undersand how the mear selection of a source is any more original research than the selection of a different source. Please explain your position more. Blueboar (talk) 00:13, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I gave you an example below. Jesus, animal advocate. Very notable source. Says some things that clearly put him in that category. According to you, I don't need a secondary source confirming that this is the correct interpretation of what he said, and that other people agree. According to you, Jesus just needs to be notable, and I only need to stick closely to what he says. But otherwise, it's fine to add him to various animal welfare or animal rights articles as a primary source. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No, I am not saying that Jesus just needs to be notable... I am saying that if Jesus says X about animals, then it is not Original Research for us to include a simple descrive statement to the effect that he says X about animals. That does not mean that we should sescribe what Jesus says about animals (there are other policies and guidelines, such as WP:UNDUE, that apply) I am only saying that it is not an OR violation to do so. Blueboar (talk) 02:13, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

This is basic NOR, a classic example of it, adding what Jesus said to animal rights, animal welfare, cruelty to animals, and whatever else, using the New Testament as the source. What could be more notable than that? There is no violation of UNDUE in terms of the notability of the source. But there is a violation of the NOR policy, because only you are saying Jesus's views matter. You won't find him in any AR article, at least not any scholarly ones. Ditto animal welfare. Should we start adding what people think his views on homosexuality were to Gay? As I said, this would be classic OR, because it's a Wikipedian picking and choosing which primary sources to use without reference to secondary sources, turning WP into a secondary source instead of a tertiary one. This is absolutely at the core of the NOR concept. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 02:43, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm finding it quite disturbing that you don't understand our standard practice of citing journal articles in all sorts of science articles. So maybe our disturbeds can offset. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen it, and it's not good practice. This is a problem that's very specific to science articles, in my limited experience of them. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 23:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

When the general policy fails to describe the actual best practices employed by careful editors, the problem is with the policy, not with the editors. It's not as if I am referring to edits made by new users or people who are not sensitive to "original research". — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Jesus often said things that made him sound like an animal rights advocate. We used to get lots of newbies trying to add that to articles, citing the New Testament. Is the only problem with this whether Jesus is notable, in your view, Blueboar? You're arguing that it's not OR? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 23:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Re Blueboar: I agree it is an NPOV issue, of course. On the other hand, I have never seen "non-notable source" in a policy document and I don't think it has any meaning. "Notable" is a term of art for article topics. In any case, the Germanium example is better (in the math example I was trying to refer to a theorem that had been proved in the paper, but I see how it was easy to misread what I wrote in that example). — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Slim... what I am saying is this: When it comes to the concept of No Original Research, it does not matter whether Jesus (or anyone else) is notable or not. If X says Y, then it is not Original Research for us to say that X says Y. The reason why it is not OR is because, in the situations I am talking about, noting that X says Y is a simple descriptive statement directly supported by the source, and as the policy already notes, even a primary source may be used to support a simple descriptive statement of this nature. Of course this does not mean that we must discuss the fact that X says Y, or even that we should (indeed it might even be that we shouldn't... there are, after all, other policies and guidelines, such as WP:UNDUE, that need to be considered)... But, it is not an OR violation to do so. Blueboar (talk) 02:13, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The fact that X says Y is not Original Research, but inclusion of that material when it is a primary source is usually an example of Original Research. For example, Jesus said in Luke 19:27 "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." Including that bald statement in the Capital punishment article would be OR. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, no it isn't. For example, it could be used to support a simple descriptive statement such as... "Capital punishment has been mentioned in many sources through antiquity, such as Babylonian Legal Codes <cite translation of Hammarabi>, Egyptian texts <cite Egytian text> and in the New Testiment of the Bible <cite Luke 19:27>.. As long as we stop there, we appropriately use the source to support a purely descriptive statement about the source. No OR involved. Blueboar (talk) 03:46, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Still more examples

Carl asked me to look in here again to clarify my earlier comment that "an original research article is not a secondary source for its own conclusions", and asked me whether that would mean a straight-up newspaper article (say this Reuters piece) would be primary or secondary for its conclusion (in this case, that an arms deal may be imminent). Wow, am I the wrong guy to ask questions like this! I hardly ever edit articles on current events and have little feel for how policy applies in subtle current-event cases. But my kneejerk reaction is that the piece in question is a secondary source about the potential arms deal, as the reporter is not directly involved in the deal.

Turnabout is fair play, so I'd like to ask a question back. Here's a typical problem for articles I help edit. Although there is no cure for autism there are scores of autism therapies, most of them with no scientific evidence. New therapies seem to crop up once every month or two: there will be a primary source, or series of primary sources by one research group, that promote it, and often the therapies are too new to have been reviewed.

Here's a recent example of this sort of problem. A series of edits to Autism therapies created a new section Qigong Sensory Training that cited (among other things) Silva et al. 2009 (PMID 19708471), an original research paper that concludes that the severity of autism is reduced by a therapy based on the theory of traditional Chinese medicine that massage alters the body's energy field. This paper was published in The American Journal of Occupational Therapy, a peer-reviewed journal not noted for publishing autism research. Although the paper is too new to have been reviewed by secondary sources, it's published by a research group whose earlier paper on the same subject has one known reliable review, Levy & Hyman 2008 (PMID 18775371); this review says only "Sensory differences are frequently described by parents, but do not figure prominently in the DSM IV criteria for diagnosis of autism. Therapeutic approaches in this category include massage and Aroma Therapy." (Translation: "These therapies have no evidence vis a vis autism, as their studies are not measuring autism symptoms.") Would it be original research for Autism therapies to cite this new source in support of the claim "In the Qigong massage program, parents are trained to give their child a daily massage, under the theory that autism is due to an impairment of the sensory and autonomic nervous system. A 2009 controlled trial of 46 children found that it significantly reduced autistic behavior and improved social and language skills."? Eubulides (talk) 00:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't feel it would be "original research", because the text is directly citing a reasonable source and not interpreting or synthesizing. On the other hand, it is not obvious that the source should be included, and the best people to decide that are people familiar with the article. If you feel the study is important enough to include, you can always hedge more, for example by replacing "found" with "concluded" or "suggested". It's really more of a question about whether the editors of the article feel that the inclusion of the material passes WP:UNDUE. Deciding that requires you to decide the "prominence" of this research in relation to the field, which is something that has to be done on a case by case basis. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Any paper like that is a primary source. To use them, we ideally need secondary sources who discuss them, and preferably academic sources, because these research teams send press releases to newspapers, and junior reporters write them up if they have nothing else to do. We could fill whole articles with lists of research discoveries. What's ideally needed are scholarly secondary sources who tell us that the research is worth mentioning. But CBM and others on this page disagree with me, so this is my interpretation of the policy.

On the autism page, if I were editing it, I might allow that primary source on its own if no one objected. If there was an objection, I would ask to see scholarly secondary sources, or if it's too new for that, then multiple high-quality newspapers who've written serious articles about it, not just brief mentions. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

But the question is not "should we make such a statement", but rather "if/when we reject this statement, are we rejecting it specifically because it violates OR"?

I don't think that Eubulides' example indicates original research: The statement doesn't add anything up or apply it to a context that isn't intended by the source itself. But I normally wouldn't include a statement like that -- because I thought it was unDUE emphasis on a WP:FRINGEy idea, not because it exceeded its sources. (In fact, it is a marvel of restraint compared to the sources.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem with this discussion (the one above, not this portion) is that it assumes the content policies are entirely separable: "this isn't OR, it's UNDUE" etc. But they're not. The concepts each of them relies on are interdependent, which is why we introduce each one as needing to be read along with the others. The heart of the issue here is a Wikipedian deciding that primary source X matters, when it should be a secondary source who decides that. That's the idea that's being discussed here. UNDUE and FRINGE are built on that -- a Wikipedian placing undue emphasis on something secondary sources don't mention, or don't mention much. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 03:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

In the end, our own editorial discretion decides what belongs in articles and what does not. Sometimes primary sources are included despite not being mentioned in secondary sources. Sometimes, secondary sources are left out because editorial discretion says that including them at all would give them undue weight. The Wikipedian editors of an article are the ones who decide, as a group, which sources "matter" and which do not. Sources are a crucial guide, but each editor also brings their own personal experience, and between all of them a neutral version is hammered out.

The point of having separate policies is to differentiate between issues. WP:OR is about introducing new ideas that are not found in sources. WP:UNDUE is about deciding which sourced ideas should be included, and which should not be included. The point of "notability" is to decide what article topics should exist, independent of the actual content of the articles. These are distinct issues, which is why the policies are not merged. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:50, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. OR is not only about "introducing new ideas that are not found in sources". OR includes a situation where a Wikipedian decides that some obscure experimental paper, which no secondary source has found important or significant enough to interpret or write about, should be written about in Wikipedia. This activity, by an anonymous editor with no known credentials and with no editorial oversight by credentialed professionals, who decides that in his own professional opinion this primary source is valid and important, with no support from any secondary source, constitutes original research, and violates our core policies. The goal of Wikipedia, as a tertiary source, is to summarize existing secondary sources, while possibly adding details from primary sources. Unfortunately, many editors miss this point, and believe they are a secondary source, interpreting primary sources. This is a crucial point, which this policy attempts to address. Crum375 (talk) 04:34, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Let me add another related aspect of OR based on primary sources. If uncredentialed anonymous Wikipedia editors take a primary source and highlight parts of it over others, or highlight one primary source over another, without support of a secondary source which provides us with this perspective, it would also constitute OR, despite the fact that all the material is individually sourced. The crucial point is that we must depend on secondary sources for context and perspective. If we are the ones picking and choosing which primary sources (or parts thereof) to use, instead of the secondary sources, we are engaged in original research. Crum375 (talk) 04:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"OR includes a situation where a Wikipedian decides that some obscure experimental paper, which no secondary source has found important or significant enough to interpret or write about, should be written about in Wikipedia." — no, that is WP:UNDUE, which is a completely separate issue. Deciding which sources to use and how much weight to give them is "source based research" and is inherent in writing our articles. Indeed, the choice of which secondary sources to use has all the problems that you are attributing to the choice of primary sources, so it is not really about primary/secondary. Editors may use all resources available to them — primary sources, secondary sources, personal opinions, talk page discussions, etc., when deciding what to include in an article. But not all of this may actually be inserted into the article itself. — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE, as presented inside NPOV, has to do with neutrality, when there is some kind of dispute, and different points of view need to be fairly represented, or fringe minorities need to be ignored. In this situation, there may be no dispute, and no neutrality issues at all. Except, an anonymous Wikipedia editor, decides that his own unknown credentials and personal knowledge allow him to promote one primary source over another, or a part thereof. Or, he may decide that an obscure research paper which no secondary source considered important enough to describe or interpret, is significant in his opinion, based on his own personal knowledge. This is OR, and not UNDUE, not a neutrality issue. Crum375 (talk) 05:25, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No; WP:UNDUE is about presenting views in proportion to their "prominence" in the literature. As WP:UNDUE says, "Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." It often happens that there is consensus that a primary source is sufficiently significant to mention in an ariticle, even though the primary source is not mentioned in any secondary sources.

In any case, accurately citing an obscure research paper is not "original research", it is simply sourced-based research. It may be that the "prominence" of the paper is low enough that it should not be mentioned at all (e.g. a fringe view), but it is not a matter of "orginality". — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

UNDUE, as part of NPOV, focuses on neutrality issues. There is no neutrality issue when an editor decides that some primary source, never reviewed by any secondary source, should be presented on WP. Similarly if an editor decides to highlight a part of a primary source, with no guidance for perspective from a secondary source. The main point is that the editor is relying on his own uncredentialed personal expertise to decide significance, or importance, of primary material. This is original research, not (necessarily) POV pushing. WP is a tertiary source, among other reasons, because its editors are entrusted to summarize what secondary sources are saying about primary sources, not to analyze primary sources, or their significance, on their own, based on their personal knowledge. Crum375 (talk) 05:46, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:NOR applies to the material that is actually added to articles. It does not apply to the mental processes by which editors create articles. As Blueboar says above:

If X says Y, then it is not Original Research for us to say that X says Y. The reason why it is not OR is because, in the situations I am talking about, noting that X says Y is a simple descriptive statement directly supported by the source, and as the policy already notes, even a primary source may be used to support a simple descriptive statement of this nature.

Maybe he has explained things better than I have. — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:54, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, OR applies to material which is added to articles. Therefore, if we add that "X said Y", where X is a primary source which no secondary source has deemed important or significant enough to mention, we are using our own personal knowledge to decide that "X said Y" is important and significant and should be added to the article. By adding it to the article, we are effectively telling the readers, "this is important, this is significant", without any source for that effective statement. Similarly when we highlight one part of a primary source over another, again, we are implying "this part is important, that part isn't", with no source for that implication. We must rely on secondary sources to add perspective and context for information from primary sources; if we do so ourselves, based on our own personal knowledge, we are engaging in OR. Crum375 (talk) 06:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

So Crum375, what do you think of using personal research to ignore sources? For example, I am revising the Tropical year article because it (correctly) has a {{Refimprove}} template. So with some pointers from another editor, I looked in a well known secondary source, the Explanatory Supplement to the Ephemeris, and it gives an equation for the tropical year that I would like to use. Unfortunately, it labels the equation as the "equinox-to-equinox" tropical year, and I happen to know by doing some calculus with the other equations in that book that it is really the "mean" tropical year. So, based on my personal research, I'm just going to ignore that book and try to find a better one. --Jc3s5h (talk) 06:51, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

(Hey, by sheer coincidence I read that article for the first time yesterday, what are the odds for that?) I think every editor must use his common sense and knowledge in the background and the talk pages, but not necessarily in article space. This is similar to police detectives using all available resources and knowledge about a criminal case to help them find and convict the real culprits, though not all evidence is admissible in court. In your specific case, if you believe (or strongly suspect) a primary source (not mentioned by any secondary source) is wrong, it's easy: ignore it (after talk page discussion). If it's a highly reliable, much cited, secondary source which you believe is wrong, and you have no reference for it being wrong (except your own math), and it's not a contentious issue, then you could say: X says Y[note 3]. In the footnote, you can briefly explain that although Y is well accepted, the math seems wrong. I would be hesitant to do even that (in that situation), unless I got talk page consensus for it from people I trusted. As another possibility, you could leave an invisible edit note describing your perceived discrepancy, perhaps pointing to the relevant talk page discussion of the issue. So as bottom line, we must use our common sense. Crum375 (talk) 13:30, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

---

A simple way to test Crum375, Eubulides, and SlimVirgin's interpretation of the original research policy, which is that it is original research to give "primary sources" undue weight, as opposed to Carl/Blueboar/WhatamIdoing/myself's interpretation that original research is citing a source which doesn't really say what you think it says, is to look at the WP:NOR page. Surely, if it was part of the NOR policy that original research includes "hyping up" obscure information, the page would reflect that? Yet I do not see anything which really says that. The closest thing is the statement that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources" ([1]). Yet this definition of primary sources was until recently extremely narrow and did not include research articles. A couple months ago the closest thing was "published notes of laboratory and field experiments..." [2] This has been extremely recently broadened by Tim Vickers into "similarly, a scientific paper is a primary source about the experiments performed by the authors and their conclusions" [3]. As I've pointed out before, if a scientific paper and its conclusions are primary sources, then in a relevant sense so are most pieces of journalism which tie together data in the form of various documents to come up with original conclusions, and so are reviews which analyze their raw data (research articles) to come up with original conclusions. Even ignoring the fact that there's no real discussion in WP:NOR of using secondary sources to evaluate the notability of a particular source for inclusion, implicit in Crum375/SlimVirgin's argument that a secondary source is necessary to establish the "notability" is that looking at the secondary coverage is the main and most relevant way to figure out if something merits inclusion. That's not right because just about everything generates some secondary coverage, and many trivial things generate the most secondary coverage. II | (t - c) 07:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Taken to extreme, the "everything's NOR" argument is pretty silly: A new treatment has been tested for a rare disease. Exactly one publication mentions it -- a primary source on a small clinical trial. Does anyone want to go on record as saying that a simple descriptive statement like "____ has been tested for this rare disease" violates WP:NOR? Does anyone think that any rational person would consider a potential treatment to be unrelated to the disease it's supposed to be treating, on the rather credentialist grounds that the fact hasn't (yet) been anointed by a secondary source?

Depending on the circumstances, I might consider it undue weight on a minor fact, but in writing a sentence like that, the Wikipedia isn't inventing any "original" ideas; s/he is merely accurately describing a verifiable fact. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, there is also a question of how much actual laboratory work is done by technicians separate from the author. See, e.g. The Invisible Technician, similarly, What Does It Mean To Be An Author? The Intersection of Credit, Contribution and Collaboration in Science which on page 7 notes that technicians are historically not identified as coauthors. II | (t - c) 11:30, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

• To Crum375: first of all, there's obviously a dispute here, and so saying there isn't and reverting [4] smacks of bad-faith and an odd sense of entitlement. Second, please engage my above point that your interpretation of NOR is not in the WP:NOR page. If it is, where is this interpretation? Since the interpretation isn't in the page, it's not part of the policy. This is something a group is trying to add now - and it's looking like it's not going to succeed, regardless of aggressive tactics. II | (t - c) 19:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no "entitlement", because I didn't write any of the material you removed, and very little of the policy as a whole. There is also no dispute about it; the issues being addressed here are not (afaict) the ones in what you removed. As far as "my interpretation of OR", what I describe here is my understanding of OR, as written and practiced on WP. If you believe something in the written policy contradicts it, please let me know. Crum375 (talk) 19:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The entitlement comes in the fact that you reverted without bothering to engage the person you're reverting; it suggests you think it is beneath you to actually discuss with certain people. Standard practice, as written in policy, is to discuss before reverting or at least concurrently (see Wikipedia:3RR#How_experienced_editors_avoid_being_dragged_into_edit_wars). The dispute is actually about this particular sentence to a large degree; the sentence you reintroduced was introduced by Tim a couple days ago [5] and is different than the longstanding language which I restored. This dispute is partly about classifying research articles as primary and then saying we can't use their interpretive conclusions - see, for example, CBM's earlier note that "the parts of the journals that we use for interpretation and analysis are secondary sources for us. This is fine because the same source can be both a primary source (for data) and a secondary source (for analysis of that data)..." As far as your interpretation of NOR, I think that your interpretation does contradict the policy as it isn't in the WP:NOR. Thus, it's not part of the WP:NOR policy - it is in your mind. I can't point to something in the written policy which says your interpretation isn't valid because the policy is largely positive (OR is X), not negative (OR is not Y, Z). Thus, the burden is on you to provide something in WP:NOR which supports your interpretation. If you want to revert again, please respond before. Please allow me to respond and bring up anything which I don't think you've really engaged. II | (t - c) 20:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Crum375, nobody in this discussion has objected to the data and conclusions of a scientific paper being described as a primary source. Jumping into the middle of an ongoing discussion and reverting something we all agree on isn't really very helpful. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

not just science articles

The issues that we are discussing may be highlighted by our difficulty in classifying Scientific materials... but they relate to non-scientific materials as well. Consider the following from the field of History... Papal Bulls... These pronouncements are normally classified by historians as Primary sources. Yet it is not at all uncommon for the author (a Pope) to include his interpretation of previous Papal Bulls and Church doctrine in making such pronouncements. In other words, these Primary sources often contain analysis and interpretation of other Primary sources. So is such a document really a Primary source?

As I see it... that question is actually irrelevant. It does not really matter whether a given Papal Bull is primary or secondary. There are appropriate ways to use the source, and there are inappropriate ways to use the source. OR is determined by HOW we use the source, not the fact THAT we use it. Blueboar (talk) 15:38, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Anybody, whether scientist, historian or reporter, writing about another document, is a secondary source for that document. However, not all secondary sources are created equal, and this is where our common sense and judgment as editors come in. The farther the secondary source is from its primary, the more reliable it becomes, as its ability to form an objective perspective increases. So if I am writing about my own previous work, or my colleagues', it would be less valuable (for perspective) than someone else, unrelated to us, doing it. Of course the qualifications and expertise of each source have to be considered also, and added into the equation. As Wikipedia editors, we need context and perspective for anything we write about, and a primary source gives us very little, if any, while a secondary source can provide valuable input, but it too must be scrutinized for distance from the data it reports on. And "distance" can be measured in terms of time, or independence from the original writer(s), or any other parameter which adds perspective and objectivity. Crum375 (talk) 16:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely... but the question is... what has any of this to do with the concept of "No original research"? Blueboar (talk) 17:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

NOR is directly related to the above. We all understand the simple application of NOR: if there is no source that the moon is made of granola, and we add it to Wikipedia based on our own personal knowledge, it's OR. But the more subtle type of OR, which many editors misunderstand, has to do with the proper use of existing sources, by adding implications which have never been published, based on our own personal knowledge. So if a court record (primary source) said that Professor X was caught driving drunk (and no secondary source mentions it), and a diligent Wikipedian finds it and adds it to X's article, that editor is using his personal knowledge that that event is important and relevant to the article. Similarly for picking primary research papers which are not mentioned by any secondary sources, or highlighting parts of primary sources while excluding others, etc. The point is that in order to understand when we are adding our original knowledge by implication, i.e. performing "implied" original research, we need to understand that for obtaining perspective about an issue, we need a secondary source, and we need to understand the crucial issue that only secondary source provides us with perspective for a primary source, e.g. a reliable sourcing for what's important and relevant, and what's not. So understanding NOR and the classification of sources are closely interrelated. Crum375 (talk) 19:00, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No, that court example is not OR. It is likely a violation of WP:UNDUE, WP:BLP, and other policies. But adding a sentence "X was convicted of drunk driving" along with a full citation to a published court record is not original research, it is simply source-based research. We expect editors to go out, find sources, and use them to write articles. This is only original research if the content of the article goes beyond the content of the sources. The importance of the source is irrelevant to the issue of OR. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:06, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Yes, it also violates UNDUE, BLP, etc., but all of that stems from the editor's "personal knowledge" that that primary source is important and relevant to the article, vs. some other item which said that Prof. X's daughter's soccer team won a game. In general, it is original research to use our own personal knowledge to add information to Wikipedia without proper sourcing. That can be to write that the moon is made of granola, or to imply, based on a primary paper we have just read, that some chemical compound which was found there is important (e.g. vs. another). In the latter case, it is our own personal knowledge that the information in the primary paper is important and relevant that we are adding to the article, but to do so properly (in a contentious case) we need a secondary source to put that paper and its implications in perspective and tell us that it's important and why. To do so by relying on our own personal knowledge would convert us into a secondary source. Providing perspective, esp. in contentious situations, even implicitly, requires a source, or else it's OR. Crum375 (talk) 19:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Crum375 - see my above request for engagement. II | (t - c) 19:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) A US court case is a bad example because a court verdict can be argued to be a secondary source. The jury evaluated the testimony (which, because of the availability of official transcripts, meet this policy's definition of a primary source) together with documentary evidence to reach a conclusion. The (usually written) verdict was further reviewed by the judge, in conjunction with the written statutes and written court opinions before reaching the final decision. --Jc3s5h (talk) 19:29, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No, a court ruling is a primary source for the specific case being litigated, since the judge personally reviewed the evidence, the jury verdict (if any) and the applicable laws, decided the outcome, and wrote the ruling. A law journal, or even a newspaper, reporting on the ruling would be a secondary source. You need distance and perspective to be a secondary source, and if you were involved in creating the published data, or controlled its outcome, you don't have that distance or perspective. Crum375 (talk) 19:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I acknowledge that the court verdict could be argued either way, but not for the reason stated by Crum375. Publications which are based on synthesizing, organizing, and evaluating other sources are secondary sources. Only when a new conclusion that cannot be derived from the sources without a significant new insight is it a primary conclusion. Einstein's special theory of relativity would be an example of a significant new conclusion; even though he didn't do any experiments, his conclusion went well beyond what anyone else was able to derive from the existing sources. A source that makes choice among possible decisions, each of which is a plausible choice given the sources, is a secondary source. For example, a movie review is a secondary source; in almost all cases, "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" are plausible outcomes for the review given the contents of the movie. --Jc3s5h (talk) 19:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The argument that the court case is a primary source would be that the judge and jury observed the demeanor of the witnesses, not just the words written in the transcript. --Jc3s5h (talk) 19:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

In the court example, if no information is added to the article that does not appear in the sources cited, then there is no "original research", because no information has been added to the article without proper sourcing.

The mental processes that we use to decide what sourced information to add to articles do not themselves have to be sourced, which is why we don't require sources for talk page conversations. Your arguments about "implicitly providing perspective" by choosing which sources to use goes far beyond every written policy and are is odds with the common practices of many experienced, careful editors — and in that sense it is simply wrong. Researching sources and then deciding which of them to use is the essence of source-based research, and it is exactly what all of our policies tell editors to do. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"Researching sources and then deciding which of them to use is the essence of source-based research": in general, you are correct. But if the sources are primary, and no secondary source has reviewed them and put them in perspective for us, by deciding which ones to use we are effectively promoting some over others. In non-contentious cases, it would be OK, but in other cases, esp. when challenged, that effective statement, "this bit is important, that bit is not", would have to be supported by a secondary source, or else we'd be engaging in original research. Crum375 (talk) 20:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The "contentious" issue is a red herring: there is no text in NOR that says "primary sources are OK, unless the issue is contentious". In fact, the word "contentious" does not appear in the NOR policy at all. This makes sense, because "contentious" is an issue with neutrality, which is covered by NPOV, not by this policy. The NOR policy allows primary sources to be used to cite descriptive claims, with no restriction to "non-contentious" claims. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:16, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"Contentious" just means that we need to be more careful, because every word counts. In a contentious situation, it is much more likely that some editor will use a primary source improperly, to promote his "understanding". So when there is some dispute, or BLP issues, we need to be extra alert not to imply things about material in primary sources which are not supported by secondary sources. Crum375 (talk) 20:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

We are not talking about adding new implications. We are talking about using primary sources for descriptive claims such as "Germanium has been detected in the atmosphere of Jupiter", which the NOR policy goes out of its way to permit. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:06, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

If that statement is non-controversial, then yes, adding a simple descriptive claim based on a primary source would probably be OK. But if all secondary sources say X, and you have a primary source disputing X, you'll need to provide a secondary source to do any more than a mere mention of it. Or possibly put it in a footnote, pending availability of an appropriate secondary source. Crum375 (talk) 21:17, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

As I was saying, NOR has no language whatsoever about different handling of "controversial" topics (that's what NPOV is for). There is no "probably" about it: primary sources are permitted, by NOR, to be used to make descriptive claims. This creeping "probably" is why I am engaging in this discussion still.

It's not true that primary sources are actually bad, but are allowed if nobody complains. For certain types of claims, as explained in NOR, primary sources are perfectly valid and acceptable from the NOR perspective, with no further caveats and no "probably" about it. In some cases there will be other policies that apply, but NOR is not a catch-all for improper use of sources. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:31, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Primary sources can be used "descriptively". But we don't really define what that means, and leave it to editorial judgment. The way I see it, we may not interpret them in any way, and may not use them selectively (highlight one part and downplay another). If we must summarize them, the summary must be "descriptive", i.e. if there is some dispute about what the source says exactly, we need to be extra cautious not to introduce bias or our own interpretation in the summary. This is why a secondary source is so important: it provides us with a reliable source which has interpreted the primary material and put it in perspective for us. Crum375 (talk) 21:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

---

I definitely have to agree with Carl here. Going to the court house and searching a public record is no different than going to a library or accessing a website on the internet. Yes, if we go beyond what the court record tells us, then we get into OR territory... but simply saying "Professor X was conficted of drunk driving on Jan. 2 1999 (cite to court record)" is not OR.... it is sourced based research. There probably are a whole bunch of good reasons why we should not include that simple statement, but WP:NOR isn't one of them. Blueboar (talk) 19:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. Yes, the actual data we obtain from a reliable source is not in question on its own. It is its inclusion in the article which is the key. The mere fact we include it conveys importance, above and beyond many other (potentially) available sources and related items. So by including it, we are effectively saying, "it's important", with no secondary source to back up that implied statement. Similarly if we pick one part out of a primary source and not another part: we are basing that selectivity on our own personal knowledge, "one is important, the other is not (trust me)". In a contentious situation, we need a secondary source to provide perspective and support for that effective statement, or else we are relying on our own personal knowledge for it. Crum375 (talk) 19:46, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Crum, you seem to be saying that we may never cite a primary source... but the NOR policy explicitly states that reliable primary sources may be used in Wikipedia. So can you explain under what circumstances you think it is appropriate to cite a primary source? Blueboar (talk) 20:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No, reliable primary sources are fine, and I personally use them a lot (in many areas they are better and more accurate for basic information than the secondary ones). The point is that we need to be extremely careful when using them so as not to imply things they don't say, and this is very tricky. For non-contentious non-BLP issues it's easier, and less critical, but in contentious situations, and esp. BLP, one must be extra alert. Of course, the article should be based on at least one secondary source, but for adding details we can use reliable primary sources carefully. Crum375 (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Just to add, when I use primary sources, I prefer to quote their own summaries of themselves (if there are any short ones) vs. my own, to minimize the risk of interpretation or selectivity. And in general, primaries are best used when they are already mentioned by the secondaries, in which case we can either just include the reference to them, or if we need to expand beyond the secondary and rely on them, we should try not to add anything which could be perceived as advancing a position. Crum375 (talk) 20:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

It's the last part ("primaries are best used when they are already mentioned by the secondaries") that is not anywhere NOR. If we required all our primary sources to also be in secondary sources, we could just cite the secondary sources, and there would be no need to cite the primary sources in the first place. The NOR policy simply says that primary sources can be used to source descriptive claims, etc. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is unfortunately too fragmented, and I have already replied to this above. Primaries can be used for their "raw data", when we are not adding our own interpretation to them, i.e. used "descriptively". This is very hard to do without introducing our own interpretation, so relying on a secondary source for this perspective is much preferred. Crum375 (talk) 21:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

NOR does not say that secondary sources are preferred over primary for descriptive claims. In practice it is not actually very difficult to cite a primary source without introducing an interpretation. Examples: "Germanium has been detected in the atmosphere of Jupiter [1]", "The United States Treasury collected approximately $2.52 trillion in tax revenue in FY 2008 [2]", "Wiles' paper on Fermat's last theorem was published in Annals of Mathematics in 1995". — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:25, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Crum... I am glad that you understand that primary sources are fine, but must be used with caution. so how is saying "Professor X was conficted of drunk driving on Jan. 2 1999 (cite to court record)" not a simple descriptive statement?... how does it go beyond the source? How is it OR? Blueboar (talk) 23:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is a descriptive statement, but there may be many other such published tidbits about Prof. X in numerous primary records, in court rulings, other government records, and other archives. If a Wikipedian decides that, based on his personal knowledge, this particular court record is important and significant for Prof. X's article, while many others are not, despite the fact that no secondary source has bothered to mention it, that wiki editor would be engaged in original research, because he is the only one supplying the perspective, i.e. that this incident is important in Prof. X's life or career, and the others are not. Now, we do have BLP rules and other policies, but the essential point remains the same for all types of articles: when we as anonymous uncredentialed Wikipedians promote one primary source over another, or one part of a primary report over another, we are implying that the selected material is more important than the others. If we have no secondary source to base that conclusion on, we are violating NOR. Crum375 (talk) 03:17, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I can not accept the argument that deciding what should and should not be discussed in an article violates WP:NOR. No... I can accept challenging something like the Prof. X conviction because it is TRIVIA... I can accept challenging it under UNDUE... and I am sure there are other policies and guidelines that apply... but not NOR.

And I definitely don't think the fact that a bit of information comes from a primary source matters in determining whether the bit of information is "important". Consider another form of Primary source that an editor might find in a records office and use in an article... a death certificate. Is it a NOR violation to say that someone died on a given date, and to cite the person's death certificate? Surely the person's death date is important to note in the article... the fact that we got this information from a primary source does not change that fact. Blueboar (talk) 04:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Policy wording and rules cannot replace common sense. It is certainly OR to use our own personal knowledge to interpret or provide perspective for a primary source which no secondary source has reviewed. But if, as you say, we have a primary source which says someone died on date X (and lets assume we have a secondary source telling us the person is dead), and we are fairly sure this is the correct person and the date makes sense, we may use it, unless it conflicts with secondary sources (in which case we may note the conflict in a footnote, for example). The point is that primary sources which have not been reviewed by secondary sources are a danger zone, where we have to tread very carefully. If we start adding our own personal knowledge into the article to either interpret these sources or place them in perspective ourselves, we'd be violating NOR. If we are careful not to add anything controversial, e.g. selectively pick and choose unreviewed primary sources or parts thereof to advance a position, we'd generally be OK. Crum375 (talk) 04:55, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

actually, I do see the issue here, because this happens all the time on fringe articles. For example, you'll have some article on a (really weird) theory R which was promoted by professor X, and some editor will come along to edit in some scandalous personal information about X (affairs, alcoholism, institutionalization, arrests - whatever applies) or edit in some "it's a stupid idea" comment from some person who would otherwise not be considered a reliable source on the topic (QuackWatch, skeptics journals, and Marvin Gardner are three of the usual suspects here). The obvious intent is to leverage the promoter's scandals or the reputation of a noteworthy but unrelated individual as a back-handed means of critiquing the original weird theory. but that's pure OR: why should the scandals of a promoter matter to the theory? why should just any old scientist be qualified to give a critique? non-neutral information cannot be treated as innocuous. I mean, if you walk up to a husband and wife at a cocktail party and say "Oh, I saw you and your girlfriend Julie at the theater the other day; how was the movie?", you cannot honestly claim that you were just presenting a fact.

really, I think this whole primary/secondary/tertiary thing has become a major source of wikilawyering. the main point is that we want to present information in a way that is not misleading. Whether primary or secondary, sources need to be presented clearly and truly, and need to be balanced with respect to their prominence and applicability to the subject. --Ludwigs2 05:32, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: adding back-handed critiques by mentioning scandals... I completely agree that doing this is not acceptable, but I disagree with your contention that that the reason it is unacceptable is that it is OR. Back-handed critics are a form of POV coatracking, not a form of OR. (What is funny is that trying to deal with coatracking issues in the NOR policy is itself coatracking.) Blueboar (talk) 17:07, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

well, I'm not sure I'd personally file it under coatrack, but I do see your point. similar issues. --Ludwigs2 06:28, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

---

Of course, the "court record" example is a little extreme. The more realistic example of the sort of primary source we are talking about here is a peer-reviewed journal article that is widely available to anyone with university library access. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

An OI

It's my contention here that File:Nsw_patriots_colours.svg and it's peers are OI would you agree? Gnevin (talk) 20:45, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"Comparison of" articles

Ttiotsw (talk · contribs) seems to think NOR prohibits comparisons between subjects in Wikipedia articles unless one of the article's editors cites a reliable source that has already made each comparison described in the article. See Talk:Conservapedia#Original research. If comparison is deemed prohibited synthesis, it would appear that this policy justifies deletion of most of the comparison pages on Wikipedia. Is this the case? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 22:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

If a reliable source has already mentioned the item we are comparing to in relation to the article topic, and the comparison is trivial and non-controversial (i.e. not "advancing a position"), then I see no problem with it. But if it's controversial, or creates a new interpretation or implication, or no reliable source mentions the compared item in relation to the article subject, then it could violate OR. Crum375 (talk) 22:26, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

In addition, if it's a simple and non-controversial numerical comparison, such as the number of casualties resulting from an earthquake, or the height of a building, we generally allow it. Crum375 (talk) 22:29, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

That's correct. You can't take something from Smith and something from Jones and compare them, Smith (or Jones) needs to do the comparison. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison between Roman and Han Empires (2nd nomination) which ended with a tiny stub and the article being worked on in the article incubator at Wikipedia:Article Incubator/Comparison between Roman and Han Empires. Dougweller (talk) 22:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Doug, if you'll expand your statement to allow a third person, Williams, to make the comparison of Smith and Jones, then that's exactly what I think. Wikipedia editors shouldn't be declaring that Smith and Jones ought to be compared, but they can describe someone else's comparison. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

So under this interpretation, how do Comparison of HTML editors and other "big table with green means yes and red means no" articles get a free pass under SYNTH? As I understand it, for each feature, you'd need to have a single reliable source stating that HTML editor A has a feature and HTML editor B lacks it. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 23:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

No, if the features or parameters being compared are clear-cut, they would be similar to the numerical comparison I mentioned above, esp. if there is no controversy about them. If it's more nuanced, like "ease of use", then yes, they would need a reliable source comparing them. Crum375 (talk) 23:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

With Comparison of HTML editors there is clear grounds for comparison, either because sources make are making the comparisons explicitly, or sources are (at least) pointing out that the elements are in competition with each other or in some other way designed to be comparable. the real problem comes when the act of comparison involves a de facto assertion by an editor that a comparison should be made. I just ran across this problem on Comparison of the Han and Roman empires - the two entities seem comparable, but there are very few sources that actually do the comparison, so the entire article came down to an editor juxtaposing research about one against research about the other. very subtle form of synth. --Ludwigs2 23:53, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipeidia is not Consumer Reports or a buyer's guide... I don't think it is not our job to compare competing products or programs. As for OR... I agree with the idea that generally you need a source that has made the comparison. We would have to be very very careful in making any exceptions here. Blueboar (talk) 01:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll admit COI here: I find it very useful as a reader/consumer to have comparisons such as these on WP, esp. for computer related subjects. But of course we still need to carefully abide by NOR, so only straightforward clear-cut features should be compared, and each has to come from reliable source individually. The more nuanced comparisons ("better", "easier", etc.), or anything controversial, all have to come from a reliable sources doing the comparison for us. Crum375 (talk) 01:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Crum, what you are talking about makes me very uneasy. I think such comparisons are OR... but I could see that they might constitute something that rates a blanket IAR invocation. I do understand your comment about these pages being useful... but useful and encyclopedic are not the same thing. This is why I am also not at all sure that Wikipedia is the right venue for such comparisons. Has anyone talked to the Wikimedia folks about creating a sister project for this sort of stuff? Blueboar (talk) 01:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the operative phrase is "advancing a position". As long as we are just taking reliably published tidbits and putting them side by side in tabular form, without creating or implying anything new by that comparison beyond convenience for our readers, we're OK, and we provide a huge service to people actually wanting to properly learn (and compare) these subjects. Once we start creating new information, or new implications, or otherwise treading into disputed or controversial areas, we need to strictly rely on published reliable sources for the comparison. Yes, maybe there can be a dedicated wiki for it someday, but for the time being WP is doing a fairly good job. But we need to be sure we stay within NOR bounds. Crum375 (talk) 01:45, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

And to clarify, this is not just for consumer-related subjects. Here is a list of buildings which clearly compares items. The key again is that as long as no position is being advanced, the compared parameters are clear-cut and well-defined, and reliable sources are individually used for each item, the comparison is merely a convenience for our readers, not a way to push some subtle agenda. Crum375 (talk) 02:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm... I think the list of buildings article is boarderline on the OR... but more encyclopedic. Another thing that may make the building article a bit more acceptable to me is that it uses "List of" in the title instead of using "Comparison of" ... To my mind, the word "list" does not invite us to do anything with the information listed. It is simply an organization of information. The word "comparison" however, does ask us to do something. It asks us to compare the items. There is a value judgement that is at least implied when you are asked to compare things (which item is faster vs slower, taller vs shorter, more expensive vs cheaper, more sophisticated vs. less sophisticated, etc.). Blueboar (talk) 04:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I think any table of parameters invites comparison, so clearly this would apply to any information presented in tabular form (unless the complete table is published in a reliable source). So the question is: is it OR to compare? (I am assuming all individual data points are appropriately sourced.) My answer is that it's generally OK, as long as we meet the following criteria: a) the compared parameters must be simple and objective (e.g. building's height, software's vendor, engine's horsepower, disaster's fatalities); b) any controversial comparison must be specifically sourced; and c) the comparison should not create or imply new information. Bottom line: we may not "advance a position" (without a specific reliable source), but we may present reliably sourced, non-controversial information side by side for our readers' convenience. We need to be careful to avoid creating any unsourced information or implication. Crum375 (talk) 05:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

If it's established that this parameter is commonly compared in this field, then I don't think that you are required to omit the information for some items in a list simply because you can't find a source that explicitly compares that specific feature for that specific product.

For example: Software reviews routinely compare the price: "Software 1 is free, and Software 2 is not". Let's say that you've got a couple of good sources, and between them, these sources compare the price of ten of them, but not the other two. (This isn't at all uncommon for products that aren't actually on the market at the time the review is written.)

I don't think that NOR requires you to omit the verifiable price of the remaining two, just because it didn't happen to be mentioned in the sources that you're working with. A plain, descriptive statement from a primary source will be acceptable here, because you're not inventing the idea that prices should be compared.

Similarly, if your 'comparison of software' sources say that a piece of software runs only on Windows, and it later becomes available for Mac or Linux, then I don't think that updating the information in the table is an improper WP:SYNTH. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:04, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I wondered where Damian Yerrick had wandered off to as they didn't bother to use the talk page for the relevant article !. Just to clarify the misrepresentation. I said that it was a WP:COI for a Wikipedia editor to simply compare Conservapedia policies with Wikipedia. Damian Yerrick said here that certain issues related to the policies of Conservapedia were "Like Wikipedia" and I reverted this here stating that it was WP:OR to compare the two policies unless a WP:RS said this. In the talk section Damian Yerrick went a bit wobbly with this edit here which seems bring alive some old talk innuendo that and implies that I am in some way related to something called "RW" (RationalWiki ?). I very clearly stated here that "As an editor on WP then you have a clear WP:COI to compare the policies on a system that you are an editor of with the competitor system. Again, let someone else comment about this commonality of policy. Then you can add that in and ref that 3rd party.". I also stated very clearly that I have never posted to CP (Conservapedia) nor RW (RationalWiki) but some other editor reverted my clarification so that is irrelevant here anyway. Damian Yerrick hasn't bothered to reply in the relevant talk section but seems to have started to WP:FORUMSHOP policies. So basically folks you've been wasting your time here in replying to Damian Yerrick because they have misrepresented the situation and there is no issue that isn't already handled by WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:COI, oh and, WP:AGF Ttiotsw (talk) 09:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The only reason I put the discussion in an existing section that mentioned RationalWiki is that the existing section was titled "original research", and "original research" was the rationale for the revert. As for forum shopping, that's a response to WP:OTHERSTUFF. I always thought that the right forum for a discussion about a policy interpretation that could result in dozens of AFDs was pages related to the policy, not pages related to a single article. I didn't want to illustrate the point disruptively by copy-and-pasting the issue into dozens of affected articles' talk pages. So I brought the discussion here because I didn't think the policy page was completely clear about what constitutes "advancing a position". The policy page mentions "A and B, therefore C" as the form for synthesis. The case of Conservapedia matches this template: "CP has ENGVAR and WP has ENGVAR, therefore the policies of CP and WP agree on this point." But then so do the comparisons put forth in red-and-green-cells articles. If the COI issue is that Wikipedia is one of the rows in the table, I can probably find Wikipedia in one of those articles too. Other stuff still exists, and I want to resolve the status of other stuff. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 21:24, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced claims in self-made image captions

WP:OI currently states: "Editors are ... encouraged to upload their own images" and "Image captions are subject to this policy no less than statements in the body of the article". A couple of days ago, I noticed a caption for a user-made image in Fossil which included the type (Baltic amber) and age of the depicted object (40-60 million years old) without any sourcing for those claims, so I removed those items from the caption, pending a reliable source. This led to a talk page thread, still ongoing, but I feel the issue is of broader significance, applying to all self-made images on WP, so I am bringing it here. As I noted in a post on that thread, I believe that if an image is "self-verifiable" (e.g. photo of a celebrity, a bird species, a public garden, a mountain, or a building), the caption can state the name of the object of the picture, plus the place and date the photo was taken. Any reader can then compare the image to others, or even visit the site (if applicable), and verify the claim, with any discrepancies raised and addressed on the talk page. But if the caption includes a claim which requires scientific analysis, or is otherwise not self-evident in the image itself (e.g. "this rock is 60 million years old"), a reliable source is needed. Other editors there disagree, and one states that "... to demand sources is a bit absurd. Sometimes, in the absence of specific reasons to doubt, you just need to trust your fellow contributors." Thoughts? Crum375 (talk) 14:44, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm with you on this one Crum. But isn't this an issue of WP:V rather than WP:NOR? Yaris678 (talk) 16:19, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

It's actually both, but I can't find any mention of WP:OI on WP:V. Crum375 (talk) 16:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm... I must confess I didn't realise your quotes were from the policy on original images. My apologies. The line on captions seems slightly out of place in WP:OI, since it is about captions and not original images. Ideally, a better place would be found for this statement than in WP:NOR. I can't think what that place would be so I'm not going to propose moving it.

However, I do think it should say "Image captions are subject to Wikipedia policies and guidelines no less than statements in the body of the article." All policies should apply to image captions. This includes WP:V, which is the policy of interest in this case.

Yaris678 (talk) 18:31, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Most images have an associated caption, and the problem is that some editors feel that we have opened the door to original research via WP:OI, and therefore they can add material in captions sourced to "trust me". Regarding venue, I would think that as long as WP:OI is inside of WP:OR, the discussion should remain here. Crum375 (talk) 19:32, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not trying to argue we should move this argument. That was more aimed towards pointing out a problem I saw in the current wording. i.e. All policies apply - not just WP:NOR.

On the subject you're actually trying to discuss. I agree with you. What do you think should be done about it? Expand the wording in WP:OI? Or is this just a case of people not knowing the rules exist, rather than not understanding them?

Yaris678 (talk) 19:59, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

well, interesting. I do think you need to distinguish along the 'advancing a position' criteria. if baltic amber is generally considered to be 40-60 million years old, then I don't think we need any particular affirmation that the particular piece of baltic amber photographed is of that age - the photo is intended as an exemplar, not as a fact in itself. if, however, the caption is making a novel claim about BA in general, then it is OR and ought to be removed. or am I missing the gist of the dispute? --Ludwigs2 20:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The point is that we have no reliable source telling us that the amber depicted in the picture is Baltic. If we did, we could then infer that the sample is of that age, but without it, we are just relying on some Wikipedian telling us these things, with no proof. Crum375 (talk) 20:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

In other words wp should only use images of specimens that have been published in peer reviewed journals? --Kevmin (talk) 20:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Peer review is not a requirement for reliable sourcing, only a nice-to-have option. Crum375 (talk) 20:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:V doesn't require the level of sourcing you're suggesting, even if it were text in the article rather than an image. WP:V actually requires inline citations for: (1) direct quotations, and (2) claims that reasonable readers might think are false ("challenged or likely to be challenged", with an assumption of good faith).

Do you actually have any reasonable concern that the image may have been misidentified (e.g., that it's probably not Baltic, or whatever the issue is)? If you do, then you might contact the uploader to get things straightened out (even experts make mistakes on occasion), but if you don't have a rational basis for challenging the accuracy of the statement, then you shouldn't do so. Demanding a source for something simply because you can smacks of bad faith, especially when you honestly believe that it's correct. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:19, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

As you correctly quote, WP:V says that any material which is "challenged" requires a reliable source. So if I as an editor say, "I don't know if this amber is Baltic or not, and I'd like a reliable source telling me that it is", that constitutes a challenge. Therefore, a source is required. Same for any other claim made in a caption, or anywhere else in article space. And if a Wikipedian tells me that "yes, trust me, it's Baltic", even if I personally believe him, his email still wouldn't be a reliable source for WP's purposes. Crum375 (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course, one can take a photo of melt plastic and claim it is Baltic amber. But the thing with illustrations is if it looks like Baltic amber, it is OK for illustration purposes, i.e., to show people how Baltic amber looks like, and I am with WP:AGF here. <to be continued...> Mukadderat (talk) 04:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

But does not the OR policy restrict Wikipedia content to that found only in traditional publications?

In general, I agree with the OR policy. However, I'm concerned that in some cases, where people have first-hand knowledge that irrefutably contradicts information in traditional publications, such first-hand knowledge will not be available in Wikipedia. Many amateur researchers will never be "published" in the traditional sense, but this does not in itself invalidate their observations. Examples include astronomy and observations of captive animals. Is there a mechanism, (perhaps on the Discussion tab in an article?) where a Wikipedia editor can include first-hand observations, particularly if such observations can be substantiated with images? $tephen T. Crye (talk) 17:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the whole concept of Wikipedia, as expressed in WP:V and WP:NOR, is that if you do research and come up with interesting results, you first need to get them published in a reliable publication, and only then can we link to them. Otherwise, every school kid will link to his latest science project on his website, and Wikipedia will stop being an encyclopedia, i.e. a tertiary source. Crum375 (talk) 17:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a publisher of original information. Steve, it sounds like you have accurately grasped the limitations of an encyclopedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:27, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

But does a Wikipedia have the same limitations? Should it? --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC) Before you think you know the answer, take a moment to consider what our oldest policies say about this? How about newer policies?

Yes, it does and should have the same limitations. Wikipedia may be "the encyclopedia that any one can edit"... but it is still an encyclopedia. Blueboar (talk) 16:14, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

My understanding of actual practice on wikipedia (spoken without judgment either way on the matter) is that mild forms of OR are pretty much the norm. Everyone comes to the wiki with their own pre-given perspectives and understandings, few editors are professional scholars, many content issues are decided by debate (or less savory processes) rather than sourcing... the result is that many if not most pages on wikipedia are properly or improperly sourced opinions about the given topic. I'm withholding judgment on that because (historically speaking) encyclopedias used to be more assertive on those grounds - The first encyclopedias were not so much interested in presenting factual information as in presenting scholarly opinions about subjects for lay consumption (it was the later shift in marketing focus towards children and education that caused encyclopedias to give up scholarly opinion in favor of factual description). As I see it, this is tolerable - opinions that are well-founded meet few objections regardless of sourcing, while opinions that are off the deep end run into a wall of opposition. it fails mostly where you get over-sourcing, believe it or not. when obsessive editors start to use sources in a rabidly moribund fashion to push their preferred point of view into the foreground on articles, balance goes right out the window. --Ludwigs2 16:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

"Is there a mechanism, (perhaps on the Discussion tab in an article?) where a Wikipedia editor can include first-hand observations". The talk page? Such personal observations have no place at all in articles, as they are not verifiable. If we allow personal observation and research, Wikipedia is unverifiable. I saw Bigfoot in my garden today. No, really, I did. Shall I put it in the article? How about I include a picture to 'prove' it? Fences&Windows 23:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is BUILT on Synthesis ("OR") in non-Controversial areas, and needs to acknowledge it to better move forward

If you look and any expert, scholarly writing in a non-controversial area (a book, 1/2 of all Wikipedia articles) you will note that the mere act of writing with expertise is "synthesis" of thousands of learnings over decades. Then the work ( and especially agrueable statements) are bolstered by references. This is essentially how most of the successful Wikipedia article are written. If you read the the "No OR" policy closely, you see that it doesn't officially prohibit these, because they are in non-controversial areas. But, to casual readers, the Wikipedia policy seems to "ban" this and thus ban about 1/2 of it's useful content. And so such would tend to discourage (or slow down) the development of good content. Or allow hecklers to prevent the addition of good content. Particularly in the areas where knowledge on a topic is primarily syntheses (e.g. describing the overall forest vs. the trees)

The policy is particularly useful, needed and effective in areas where "OR" really is (per the common use of the term) Original Research. This is where there disagreement about matters of fact, where such has not yet been learned/decided. Such as is present in leading edge science, pseudo-science and junk-science.

But, a look through Wikipedia articles will show that the Wikipedia system has been an utter failure on controversial topic other than the above type. Those articles are all unstable messes which have informative factoids but where the article is uninformative at the macro level. They are continual battlegrounds of people using the more granular / simple Wikipedian standards (gaming the system) to have the article support their POV. Any real perspective is kept out because such is "synthesis"

A part of the solution will be for Wikipedia to get it's collective head out of the sand and acknowledge that synthesis exists in and is important in Wikipedia.

And for controversial topics, Wikipedia needs to make up "rules for synthesis" rather than pretend it doesn't exist or isn't needed.

Well, there my 2 cents. :-)

North8000 (talk) 14:32, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:NOR only prohibits synthesis to advance a position, or create new information. If you just combine what reliable sources already say, without creating or implying a new viewpoint or position, it's not only allowed, but encouraged. As the policy says: "Carefully summarizing or rephrasing a source without changing its meaning or implication does not violate this policy: this is good editing." Crum375 (talk) 14:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

But what I'm talking about on non-controversial articles is direct writing from expertise which which was slowly gained over decades. One example is the "Dorothy Molter" articel.....very famous and notable person, but where sources are few. The article had little content. I have pretty extensive knowledge - a synthesis of a dozen meeting/visits, a "gist" that was developed from maybe a hundred this I've heard or read over 46 years, plus dozens of direct observations of items which are content in the article. I clearly remember reading about her in a National Geographic book (not magazine) decades ago which I can not now find. And so I added content to the article in areas that I was absolutely certain of, based only a expertise, not references. Did I violate the rule? And if so, does the rule need changing, or should I delete the material that I added?

A second example is the "Machine Vision" article. As one of the acknowledged authorities (and often read author and guest "professor" at universities on the topic) in that field, I can tell you that that entire field IS very much a synthesis. "Big picture" knowledge is rare and needed, but is always a synthesis....there are no recognized references for "big picture" knowledge. The listed references are good, but for specialized areas within this field. On this article I only added a few tweaks in areas where it was clearly obsolete. No expert can contribute top level knowledge without violating Wikipedia rules. As a result, it looks as if nobody is really contributing, despite this being a huge and fast moving field. (looks like all of those edits are basically putting in and taking out advertising.)

North8000 (talk) 16:34, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, consciousness requires synthesis. The Wikipedia policy is good enough and useful in its way, but can be over-interpreted to a point where no editing at all is permitted.

Calamitybrook (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

It is precisely this "over-interpretation" that needs to be eliminated by having an honest policy on OR. --Michael C. Price ^talk 21:20, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Re North's example of Dorothy Molter... Yes, your edits do constitue Original research. Wikipedia is not the place to publish personal observations from meetings, visits, etc. The key is that Wikipedia should not be the first place of publication for any information. Now, if you were to write up your observations and publish them in some way... then we could discuss them.

Re the Machine Vision article... I doubt that "North8000" is an acknowledged authority in any field. The person who posts to Wikipedia under that username might or might not be... we have no way of knowing. The key here is Verifiability. We can verify that a published source says something. We can not verify that an editor is the author of that source or knows what he/she is talking about when they go beyond the sources. Blueboar (talk) 19:32, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually I am,(in Machine Vision) but I did not bring that up to talk about contributions, I brought it up only to bolster my statement that in that particular field, (actually industrial automation in general) any higher level knowledge is inherently synthesis. North8000 (talk) 22:20, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with North. Stating that wikipedia shouldn't have any OR is silly: most articles already violate the strict no-OR rule, and this policy article is inconsistent on the matter. It needs to be made consistent and honest. --Michael C. Price ^talk 21:20, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

We also say that all editors should be civil and non-disruptive, yet this gets violated all over too. So should we just do away with policies? No, we define our goals and rules, do our best, and deal with violations as they appear. Giving up is not an option. Crum375 (talk) 21:32, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Invalid comparison. Removing all OR is not an ideal, as has been pointed out already here by North, and on numerous occasions in the past by almost all editors (including yourself w.r.t. WP:IAR, IIRC). Your statement is an example of what I mean by "not being honest" about our practices and our goals. --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:01, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

"Not being honest" implies I am lying, which violates WP:AGF, and WP:CIVIL, among others. I have written quite a few articles here, and helped out on many others, and have never knowingly introduced OR. To the best of my knowledge, there is no OR in any of these either. If there are articles with problems, they need to be fixed, not used to drag everything else down to them. Crum375 (talk) 22:08, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

You may recall the discussion about WP:ESCA which led onto WP:IAR. The conclusion was that we routinely IAR when it suits us (i.e. for non-controversial changes). IOW we do insert unsourced OR when convenient. Pretending that we don't is stupid and time-wasting. --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:18, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

So now you are implying I am stupid. You may well be right, but I am not aware of any "conclusion" that we routinely add OR to articles. I am also not aware of any OR in my own contributions, or any of these. If you know otherwise, please let me know. Crum375 (talk) 22:28, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Crum373, IMHO I think that Michael was just bluntly discussing the topic and did not make those statements about you personally that you are reading into it. North8000 (talk) 23:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, my comments relate to the policy not to the contributers. --Michael C. Price ^talk 07:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

And if you prefer to follow actual examples, follow these. Crum375 (talk) 21:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

My first suggestion would be to stop categorically defining synthesis as OR. Original Research should be defined more along the lines of the common meaning of that term, and it should continue to be excluded. This would essentially bring the OR policy in line with reality, and keep it in place, as it is needed and useful.

My second suggestion would be to essentially say non-OR synthesis content is OK (only) if nobody disputes it. And even then it should have references wherever possible. And, if it is disputed, then it should follow "synthesis rules / procedures" which Wikipedia should develop.

Lastly, since Wikipedia articles (or sections of articles) on controversial topics are all a mess, it should either stop having those in Wikipedia, or else rework it's standards to start making those successful. Adding some specifics to other widely ignored ethereal policies (e.g. undue weight, scope/content limitations of "criticism of" articles, NPOV at the macro (vs. micro) level) But regarding non-OR synthesis, it should have rules / processes for developing a consensus on synthesis before it can be put in when it is disputed. Non-OR synthesis is an important part of useful articles. IMHO Wikipedia should acknowledge that synthesis is not necessarily OR, and regulate synthesis instead of pretending that it isn't needed or doesn't exist. North8000 (talk) 23:04, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

But we do allow synthesis, as long it's not to "advance a position". That means we may combine several sources in a single summary, and use our own words to do so. We not only allow this, but encourage it. What we don't allow is to "advance a position", which means you may not create an implication for something new, which is not attributable to a reliable source. Crum375 (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

What you say is true if you look at the sentence near the beginning of the policy. But then the rest of the policy does not have that "as long it's not to advance a position" qualifier. But even setting that aside, the rest of the policy also puts another condition on allowable synthesis in that it must be synthesized from quoted sources. But I think that the proof of the pudding is that it a standard practice for experienced editors to categorically say that if a statement isn't supported by references, Wikipedia says it's "OR" and shouldn't be written in Wikipedia. North8000 (talk) 23:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

We don't require "quoted sources". Perhaps you mean "cited"? The "synthesis" section is specifically focused on synthesis used to "advance a position", per its title. And it's true, we can't make statements not supported by reliable sources, but we may (and normally should) summarize those sources using our own words. Crum375 (talk) 23:41, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I did mean "cited" as you suggest. But in the end you stated the policy which prompted me write here. North8000 (talk) 23:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with North's statement "My second suggestion would be to essentially say non-OR synthesis content is OK (only) if nobody disputes it." I think this needs to be explicit. And by "nobody disputes it" we mean no one disputes the factual accuracy. It often arises that a pedantic editor will remove material, and insist it stays out, even when all agree that it is factually correct and non-controversial. Unfortunately, the way this (inconsistent) policy is written at the moment, both sides can cherry pick the parts they want to suppport either side, which leads to endless time-wasting disputes and articles go nowhere. --Michael C. Price ^talk 08:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I think that there are three cases:

1. Coverage where the factual information is not known yet including assertions that information is factual. (e.g. areas of scientific research, or theories that ghosts exist). I think that the OR policy was well designed for these.

2. Coverage of matters of fact where there are no real disputes regarding what the "facts" are. Here, good articles exist only by violating the OR policy. (Pick any good, non-controversial article. 90% of the statements in it do not arise from the cites.) And thus the policy as written impairs the development of these articles.

3. Coverage that is about or involves a controversial area. (but not per #1) Usually in these the Wikipedia content is just a battleground in some larger scale war that is going on elsewhere. In these one or the other combatant (or both) is working at gaming the Wikipedia system (including clever / selective use of Wikipedia rules) to put forth coverage which would sway readers towards their viewpoint. These articles / sections are basically all failures in Wikipedia. If Wikipedia keeps these types of articles / coverage at all, lots of rule changes will be needed beyond synthesis. But the fact remains that synthesis would also be needed in these articles, so "rules for developing synthesis" in contentious situations would need to be created.

North8000 (talk) 13:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

If you think we need to make a change in WP:OR policy, pick a specific mature and well-written article, ideally one of these, and demonstrate with specific examples how that article can be improved with a revised version of the policy. Anything else is hand-waving. Crum375 (talk) 13:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

What is wrong with picking an article on a non-obscure topic that really sucks and demonstrating how changing the policies would help? As far as I understand, the major headache is not what works OK. Mukadderat (talk) 03:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

To North8000: the problem with synthesis is that, unlike mathematics, in social sciences, politics, etc. a significant part in decision-making is the author's expertise to draw a particular conclusion as a generalization of known facts, i.e., the deduction. One prominent and very common example of innocently looking synthesis which is hawked upon in controversial articles is the phrases like "most experts agree that...". They are routinely replaced with "Some experts say that ....". It may seem nitpicking and POV-pushing, but is at the soul of this WP:NOR policy: you have to cite an expert who says "most experts". And even with a bullet-proof citation an opponent has a right to say that this expert is from a biased camp and in fact another expert says that most experts say something opposite. And I think there is no way you can write a policy which will help resolving such cases by a simple "if-then-else" rule. Only interaction of all policies, starting from the topmost one: "wikipedia is encyclopedia", will help to painfully reach a consensus.

Therefore if you feel that the current policy lacks something, this may be just the reflection of the trivial fact that the whole life lacks clean-cut rules, and generic complaining that "life sucks because" or "policy sucks because" are unhelpful.

Conclusion: if you have a specific suffesion how to improve the policy, bring it on. We shall discuss it in its merits. Otherwise it is, as Crum375 put it, just hand-waving. Mukadderat (talk) 03:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Re item #3 in North8000 troika. I was lazy to look up how long have you been editing wikipedia, but on my memory there are quite a few good and featured articles which have long been as a helpless battleground. It took a really long effort and work of many interested editors to make them right or look right. Wikipedia is unique in how it works. It is still a great experiment in new ways of content creating. I understand and appreciate your desire to improve its works. You have to look thru policy page histories to see how they incrediblly improved over years. But it is only possible by discussing concrete proposals. Do you have in mind any particular rules how do distinguish "2+3=5"-type synthesis from "all men are pigs"-type synthesis? You may start from a list of cases/examples of go/no-go syntheses. And we shall see what is "policy-able". Mukadderat (talk) 03:58, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

To Mukadderat: I have a suggestion to deal with the earlier example of OR where absolutely no sources are available, but the subject is clearly public and important. In these cases I think it should be mentioned that adequate sources are not available but this is a good faith attempt to disseminate knowledge. I see no reason not to leave something like this up unless someone refutes it or changes it with sourced data. Could it be incorrect? Yes, just like every other page on WP could be. Bare in mind that the point of the OR rule is WP is not your blog, not to prevent factual (if unverified) information from being recorded in the absence of the possibility of citing a proper source. If there were a way to create a standard of accuracy across WP then this sort of thing could would lower that standard and be unacceptable but in this case the policy would simply provide undisputed knowledge with caveat in good faith, and with variability on par with much of the other data published here. We are often reminded that WP is an encyclopedia, not a blog. Please allow me to remind you all that an encyclopedia is primarily concerned with the dissemination of knowledge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.160.115 (talk) 10:24, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

To those who suggested that a next step would be to propose specific changes, good idea and I agree. I'll do that, it will take a little time. (Actually I think that 70.68....got a good start on one piece of it.) But the process of first bringing and discussing it in general is a natural, polite, and probably even de facto required first step before that, and so I would not agree with disparaging it as "hand waving" North8000 (talk) 11:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Lastly, to clarify, I did not say that all articles which have been a battleground are a mess. I essentially said that nearly all articles or article sections which are on battleground topics, not of type #1 are a mess. And so I agree with what you said on that, but submit that it does not refute what I said. North8000 (talk) 11:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I have an example article for you to check out on this. It is an extremely high quality and useful article, but 100% of it is uncited synthesis arrived at by discussions and consensus. So everything in the article violates the "OR" rule, yet it is a very good article. The title of the article is "Wikipedia:No original research" ....check it out.  :-) North8000 (talk) 16:17, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Um... "Wikipedia:No orignial research" is not an article... it is a policy page. There is a difference. We do not have the same rules for non-article space (talk pages, policy pages, user pages, etc.) as we do in article space (ie the articles themselves). Blueboar (talk) 18:30, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course I was being a bit whimsical saying that the rules break the rules,.....but the point still being that this good content was created by 100% synthesis. North8000 (talk) 19:34, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course there can be "good content" created by 100% OR. But it's not Encyclopedic content, not when the creators are anonymous Wikipedians. The key rule for this site is that we don't make up stuff, regardless of how good we think we are. Everything in article space must be attributable to a reliable source. Crum375 (talk) 22:33, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

And to repeat, since you seem to be ignoring the point, synthesis is permissible and even encouraged, as long as it's not "to advance a position", e.g. implying something which the cited sources don't. Crum375 (talk) 22:36, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

---

Example: look at the problems with inserting "futurist" into Great filter - and everybody admits it is factually correct. I've currently resorted to invoking WP:IAR, which I shouldn't have to. Gawd knows how long before it gets reverted out for the nth time.--Michael C. Price ^talk 22:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Michael, there are no reliable sources that call Robin Hanson a futurist. There are, however, sources that call him a social scientist, economist, and a professor of economics. In fact, out of ~300 sources on Robin Hanson, only three refer to him as a "futurist", two of which are personal blogs, and one that is an advertisement for a discussion on Cato Unbound a Cato Institute online forum. Other than Cato and two personal blogs, I'm not seeing any published sources that call Hanson a futurist. We go with what the reliable sources say, not what Michael C. Price says. I have repeatedly asked you to provide a good source that calls Hanson a "futurist". You cannot do this, therefore per WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:BLP, I have removed it yet again. Please do not keep adding it unless you can support it with a source, such as those found here. Those sources are all very clear in referring to Hanson as an economist and/or professor of economist. Hanson also refers to himself in interviews and other personal writings as a social scientist. None of these sources call him a "futurist". It should also be said that Michael isn't telling the full story. He originally removed the designation "social scientist" from the article because he "felt" it would be a better description, as another editor objected to calling Hanson a social scientist. When asked for a reliable source, Michael could not produce one. However, Hanson is on record calling himself a social scientist and he received a Ph.D. in social science from Caltech. Furthermore, the article in question (and Hanson's opinion on the subject) deals with two values from the Drake Equation directly related to social science. So, Michael removed a sourced claim about Hanson and added his personal opinion in its place. That is not acceptable. When confronted with WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:BLP, Michael claims to be WP:IAR. Viriditas (talk) 23:28, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Note that the claim that RH is a futurist is not denied. --Michael C. Price ^talk 01:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

OK... I deny that he is a futurist. Now prove me wrong. Blueboar (talk) 01:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Simple: he says all economists are futurists. He is an economist, therefore.... --Michael C. Price ^talk 02:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

So if he says that all economists are human, his title should be "human"? Crum375 (talk) 03:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Hanson does not say "all economists are futurists". That's a deliberate distortion of something I said to Michael about one of Hanson's interviews. Michael previously made this false statement and I corrected him, and here he is making it again. Hanson never said "all economists are futurists". Viriditas (talk) 09:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

First as a preface, respectfully, Crum375 there is a logical flaw in your last sentence. Your in essence saying that a claim that a person is human equates to a claim that their "title" should be "human" has no basis and thus your assertion of flawed logic is flawed. Whew!  :-) Now, to Blueboar, for the purposes of this beginning of a "proposed policy", if in the context of that actual article (vs. you just saying that to make a point on this totally different topic) you were to contest his statement that Hanson is a futurist, then the proposed new policy allowing factually uncontested cite-less statements from acquired knowledge (syntheses) would no longer apply. North8000 (talk) 03:50, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I was just making a point... but it was a point on topic... everything in Wikipedia needs to be verifiable to a reliable source... even synthetic statements. If a source does not say it, neither can we. WP:BURDEN applies to synthetic statements no less than to individual facts. Every uncited statement is challengable by someone simply saying "I doubt it... prove it". Which is exactly what WP:OR tells us to do. Blueboar (talk) 04:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Blueboar, you've just restated policy, you haven't made an argumment. Please tell me why we should delete non-controversial, relevant but unsourced facts. --Michael C. Price ^talk 09:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Michael, please see List of futurologists. Hanson isn't listed there because we don't have reliable sources that refer to him as a futurist. If you have good sources that say otherwise, then please produce them. Otherwise, we can't call Hanson a "futurist". It is also interesting to note that Dr. Hanson does not refer to himself as a futurist anywhere, neither on his massive blog or in any of his publications or interviews. Is there a reason, Michael, you keep adding the word "futurist" in reference to Hanson in an article about the Great Filter? Do you have access to any reliable source about the Great Filter that refers to Hanson as a futurist? No, you do not and the Great Filter is hypothesized to exist in either our past or our future. So, why do you keep adding it to the article? What source(s) are you using to support it? From reading the secondary literature, I get the sense that Hanson does not like being referred to as a futurist, although, that is only my interpretation. I see that he is primarily referred to as an economist and a professor of economics, and he refers to himself as a social scientist. Is there a reason you are using a term for Hanson that he does not use for himself and cannot be found in any reliable sources on the subject? Viriditas (talk) 09:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

It took me ten seconds to find this. --Michael C. Price ^talk 09:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

From the official facebook site: "Intellectual Pornography is a blog that features articles on random and fascinating subjects ranging from high speed robotics to squid iridescence to time travel to the use of genetically engineered flowers to battle pollution to Yike Bikes to...well, you get the idea."[6] Michael does this blog meet Wikipedia standards for RS and BLP's? Viriditas (talk) 09:48, 3 February 2010 (UTC)