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Anyone know the modern/common names for these castes?

There's a book online from the early 19th century which has a ton of pics of daily life in India, including representatives of many castes. I'd love to add more of these as illustrations to caste articles (as I did at Kayastha). The only problem is that I can't find articles on most of these castes. Are the castes listed under Wikipedia as different names, or are these castes which have no coverage (obsolete, no article written yet, nobody will admit being descended from them, etc). Such caste names include (also noting several Indian/Hindu festivals/events where I need to find the articles):

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Thanks for any help pointing me to which articles these images might go to! MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Most of them are also occupation names of the castes. See some links inline --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:48, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

{{British English}} name	{{Indian English}} name
Doams, basket makers	Domba, Doms
Moorda-shos, undertakers. Removers of corpses	Dom
Puttooas painters	Chitrakar
Jogee, cloth merchant, weaver	Jogi
Sonaur - Bunnyas. Money lenders	Bania
Sonaur - Bunnyas. Money lenders	Sunar
Nays, Shaving Barbers	Navhi, Nabhik, Gurav
Beyde	Vaidya
Ras yatrah, celebrations of the loves of Krishna	Raas Lila
Gwallah, Milkseller	Veershaiv Gavali Samaj
Mauls, snake catchers	Mang Garudi
Tantys, Weavers	Tanti, Shimpi in Maharashtra
Komars, potters	Kumbhar
Moochees, Tanners, shoe makers	Mochi (caste)
Dhobys, Washermen	Dhobi
Maulys, Flowermen	Mali caste
Brijbasis, a hindu tribe	Nat (caste)
Rathyatra: Procession of the Gods in their car,	Jagganath Puri, Ratha Yatra
Chaun Jatrah (Celebration of the bath of Jagannath)	Jagganath Puri
Kirtan sung at the festival of Hari	Kirtan
Gwallahs, cow herds	Dhangar

Zuggernaut (talk) 03:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Changed a link above. Dhnagars are usually described as shepherd. Gwallah seems to be ग्वाला or ग्वाल (Gwala/Gvala), the generic word for a cowman or dairy-man or cowherd in Hindi. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Awesome! Thanks for the clarifications. Is it just coincidence that a lot of the ones you give are Bengali castes, or is it just that you know the Bengali ones better, or the 19th C. author just happened to cover a lot of Bengali castes? MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:55, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Glad I could help. Most caste names in the Indo-European linguistic group are likely to have similar sounding names. However when you upload pictures, it is important that it goes to the article on the right regional variation of the caste group. For example, if your picture of a member of the Mali caste is from Maharashtra then it is important that the caption denote that since a member of the same caste from a different state (if it exists in that state) belongs to a different ethnicity and will obviously look different. Zuggernaut (talk) 02:26, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Most of them seem to be Bengali becuase most of the 17th to 20th century English research scholars in North India were based in then Indian capital of Calcutta and in those time Benngali learned people were specs thru which English saw, read & deciphered most of North India. That is why you have B in place of V or W and J in place of Y angelical name of Hindi equivalent & usage of O or OU in angelical words because in Bengali (& also in Eatsern Hindi including Awadhi, Behari, Bhojpuri, etc) they use B & tend to round most of the words e.g. Vardhmaan in Hindi will be Bardhamoun in Bengali or Yatra in Hindi is Jatra or Jotra in Benagali & that is why they changed Calcutta to Kolkata ;) --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider^tc_s 03:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Found a site with more and higher-quality images from the same historical source: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1700_1799/solvyns/gwalla.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1700_1799/solvyns/solvyns.html&usg=__5eSKQtJN178N8kUVuy_qimm4ZTA=&h=734&w=500&sz=86&hl=en&start=3&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=UBZb1G8ZSPUtLM:&tbnh=141&tbnw=96&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgwalla%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26biw%3D1245%26bih%3D847%26tbm%3Disch&ei=X23WTZyLN869tge2taCtBw . Will look through those and see which can be used to illustrate caste articles. MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:34, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Veershaiv Gavali Samaj, retitle "Gavali (caste)"?

An illustration of a Gwalla by Francois Balthasar Solvyns, circa 1800 CE

Is there a distinction between "Veershaiv Gavali Samaj" and "Gavali", or am I okay to move it to the simpler title? I almost wonder if it has the long title because the originator didn't know how to disambiguate from Gavali (a town). Any objections on rename? MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are several sub-groupings in the Gavali caste. Gavali is the generic name and the editor was probably trying to differentiate between this group from other groups like Ahir Gavalis and the Yadav Gavalis. Zuggernaut (talk) 02:37, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Given that the article is unreferenced, and there is no Gavali (caste), what say I move it to that title, and anything that appears to be specifically Veershaiv I put into a subsection (tagged "unreferenced")? It just seems undue to have an article about a subgroup before there's a group article. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:34, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I merged the two articles into Gavli, neatened it up a little bit though it still needs work. Also created redirects to Gavli at the following: Gowli, Gowlu, Gawli, Gavali, Gawali, Gauli, Gavadi, Gouli, Goalla, Gopa, Godla. Does anyone note any names on this list that should not redirect to Gavli? Also ran into a bit of confusion with various sources mentioning that the Dhangar and the Ahir are the "same" as the Gavli, though nothing quite convincing enough to try to merge all three (rather large) articles that have been developing separately. Any thoughts? EDIT: added cool pic from the old Solvyns engravings.) MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

The merge seems alright for now. We can split it into different Gavli sub-castes if those sections grow long enough to merit their own articles. I've not seen some of the spelling variations of Gavli but that doesn't mean they should not redirect to Gavli. AFAIK, Ahir and Dhangar are distinct castes so separate articles are good unless Redtiger or someone else presents credible sources that show that the castes are the same. Zuggernaut (talk) 15:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

help with naming

i am planning to create an article for the 3rd term chief ministership of J. Jayalalitha. i would want the article to specifically deal with the third term, not the first and second, because i believe enough has happened in both terms to deserve their own articles. i am not sure how to name the article though. suggestions welcome. for the starters, here is a stupid idea Chief ministership of Jayalalitha - 3rd term. --CarTick (talk) 15:50, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

J. Jayalalitha's third term as Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. already made it. better suggestions still welcome. --CarTick (talk) 12:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

That's a great new article. I would have preferred "Chief ministership of Jayalalitha, 3rd term" or "Chief ministership of Jayalalitha (3rd term)" on the lines of George W. Bush presidential campaign, 2004. Zuggernaut (talk) 16:38, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Z. i based it on George W. Bush's second term as President of the United States. your ideas sound good too. i will incubate it for a while and see how it goes. --CarTick (talk) 19:22, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

It's no big deal and the current title seems fine as well. Zuggernaut (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Prod on Haryanvi music

I have just prodded this article (I'm one of the editors working on articles created by User:Maheshkumaryadav). I've found a few online sources that seem to indicate that Haryanvi has a unique, local type of music, especially the style called Raagani, but I can't find even one reliable source. If anyone can find even a single source, I think we can save the page and un-prod it. If anyone has a print source to verify the existence of this field, please add to the article. Thanks Qwyrxian (talk) 07:09, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Major cleanup underway at Category:Maratha clans

I'm undertaking a top-to-bottom cleanup of the articles in Category:Maratha clans. The actual cat was created by me, since User:Starrahul had created dozens of Maratha clan articles dispersed willy-nilly, so I thought it best to group them in a cat. Zuggernaut opines above that the cat name is OR, however I would argue that there exists in reliable sources a concept that there is such a thing as a Maratha clan system, so I don't see the harm of grouping together therein names which purport (and are noted to so purport in RSs) to belong to the Maratha clan system.

Starrahul has a pretty consistent modus operandi of writing highly POV pro-Maratha articles and adding in "References" what appears to just be a copy-paste of the gBooks hits for whatever keywords he's using. No gBooks links, no proper cites, generally no page numbers and generally no footnotes. He also tends to have "Clan details" sections which are horribly clunky in the article but would probably make a great infobox (though not with the Maratha Empire flag in every one). For a contrast between what I'm cleaning up and the originals, here's a before and after dif of Chavan. His "format" is pretty constent, so it makes it easier to chop.

At this point, I'm not so much trying to build these articles as simply clean them. I think I'm good to tackle the cleanup alone, but I would really appreciate it if someone can help me build an infobox for the "clan details" info which appears on each page. Has anyone here built one before?

Just letting folks know what I'm up to; Starrahul was rather upset about this a few weeks ago, but appears to have wandered off. If he continues to produce this "format" and not follow WP format (which I've been messaging him about for literally three years), then I suppose we'll have to sort something out

Hope folks find this interesting, and again I could really use some help with the infobox. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:56, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Starrahul and I have had problems because of some of the reasons you state above. He is obviously an enthusiastic editor and if we are able to get him to be a regular here and more importantly stick to WP policies, that will be a great step forward in the improvement of Maratha articles.

Regarding the Maratha clan system, what I'm saying is that the category is WP:OR, i.e, I've not seen sources that clearly classify the Maratha caste in this manner. Obviously, the clan system does exist but should we create a category when there is no clear definition about who is inside and outside of those 96 clans? Here's what the Britannica says about the Maratha clan system:

“ The Maratha group of castes is a largely rural class of peasant cultivators, landowners, and soldiers. Some Maratha and Kunbi have at times claimed Kshatriya (the warrior and ruling class) standing and supported their claims to this rank by reference to clan names and genealogies linking themselves with epic heroes, Rajput clans of the north, or historical dynasties of the early medieval period. The Maratha and Kunbi group of castes is divided into subregional groupings of coast, western hills, and Deccan Plains, among which there is little intermarriage. Within each subregion, clans of these castes are classed in social circles of decreasing rank. A maximal circle of 96 clans is said to include all true Maratha, but the lists of these 96 clans are highly varied and disputed. ”

I would have loved to help with the infobox but I'll wait until my topic ban goes away. Zuggernaut (talk) 16:35, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Kasturi (TV channel) or Kasthuri TV

Hello. I am hoping someone might be able to sort this out for me. While cleaning up the disambiguation page Kasturi I came across the articles Kasturi (TV channel) and Kasthuri TV which I believe to be about the same television channel. As I know nothing about the subject, it would be great if someone with a bit more insight could decide what the title of the page should be and merge the other there. For instance is it Katsuri or Kasthuri?; I see the offical website says Kasthuri so maybe this is the correct name. France3470 (talk) 17:52, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

"Kasthuri TV" would be the more apt name. i have merged and copyedited the content. A history merge needs to be done.--Sodabottle (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Debate at Nair over Kshatriya vs. Shudra classification

there is a discussion about whether Nairs are Kshatriyas or Shudras or both — i know it sounds weird — and whether the article is accurately characterising the reliable sources in this topic. here is the link. will appreciate inputs from project page watchers. thanks. --CarTick (talk) 23:33, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

(Changing title to be more specific) I haven't gone into the various sources, but as a general rule I'm very leery of groups which claim to be Kshatriya, and then flip out when someone notes the plethora of sources identifying them as Shudra. I've posted on that page in support of properly cited Shudra inclusion, along with noting any properly cited claims to Kshatriya status. What the Nair are is immaterial, the important thing is to note the history of the ways they've been classified. MatthewVanitas (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

We're getting kind of swamped here with a bunch of folks who are adamant against any taint of the word "Shudra" in the article, despite plenty of cites showing that the Kerala Brahmin considered the Dravidian Nair to be Shudra due to their lack of descent from ancestral varnas. Granted, they fulfilled a Kshatriya-like role, and some British and other commentators reckoned they may actually have Kshatria roots; but we're not trying to eliminate the word Kshatriya, while the other side is trying to eliminate the word Shudra rather than actually portray the complicated issue of varna in Southern India. If anyone wants to weigh in (and note, their tempers are running high), it would help. They've already filed an ANI complaining about CarTick and I, not that I think it will go anywhere. It's not that I don't understand that Shudra status is controversial, but the lengths people will go to to remove explicit academic references is disenheartening. MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Articles that have excessive DABLinks and part of Wikiproject India

I am looking for a list of Pages in this project (wikipedia India) that have excessive DABlinks on them. (I am hoping to clean them up.) How do I go about finding a list of those articles - that have both: 1. Excessive DabLinks, and 2. Belonging to this project.

Thanks, Ram —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramnarasimhan (talk • contribs) 18:40, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Not part of the project, but you might want to begin by looking through Articles with links to disambiguation pages on the toolserver. This displays the article pages with the most links to disambiguation pages. There are always lots of Indian topics so it shouldn't take you too long to find some by just browsing. -France3470 (talk) 19:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Major cleanup underway at Yadav (merge with Ahir?)

The article Yadav has been, probably for years, a confused mish-mash of caste-cruft, terribly copyediting and footnoting, etc. I've waded in, put in clear references noting they're generally classed as Shudras while themselves claiming to be Kshatriya. A huge portion of groups noted as Shudra in academic sources are adamantly described as Kshatriya all over Wikipedia, so I've been trying to track those down and "teach the controversy."

To start out, I'm using http://reftag.appspot.com to convert bare gBooks links into proper cites (there are over 100 footnotes, so it's taking a while). I've also removed some iffy "cn" material, and also removed some large portions which are only footnoted to the Vedas and whatnot, since nobody there is qualified to be interpreting ethnology based on milleniae-old scriptures, so that's pretty clear OR.

A large portion of the article also appears to (probably improperly) conflate the Yadav with the legendary Yadavas, while as I understand it other refs note that the modern Yadavs are simply a farmer caste that adopted a catchy/legendary name in recent centuries. The article also goes way too far in depth on the legendary end, considering that such material is already covered under Yadavas.

The article also has large portions that are redundant to existing articles, or need to be chopped on their own, like multi-paragraphs of individual sub-clans. There also appears a strong case to be made that Ahir and Yadav are the same thing, and the two articles apparently use a lot of the same pictures, address the same history, etc. Note that Ahir and Yadav, and their various redirects, get over 10,000 hits a month, so leaving the articles so sloppy is showing a bad side of Wiki to a large number of readers.

If anyone wants to wade in to help out, it would be greatly appreciate it. It'd also help just if folks can watchlist the page, as I'm getting IPs diving in regularly to remove clearly-cited info on the Shudra classification. Thanks! MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:02, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't have time to help with the articles, but the Rajputs are the most celebrated example of Shudras (or pastoralists outside the caste system) who managed a backdoor entry into Kshatriahood by volunteering their services in various armies. (See, for example, Burton Stein's History of India'). The early medieval period (600 CE to 1200 CE) saw a great deal of this happen all over India. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Shivaji and the Marathas are another example. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:02, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

PS Quote from Asher and Talbot's India before Europe (CUP 2006; pages 238-39): "The Marathas along with many peasant cultivators throughout the subcontinent were considered members of the fourth or shudra varna in the four-fold class system of orthodox Brahamin thought. Traditionally, however, the only legitimate kings were those born in the kshatriya varna, ranked just below the Brahmins. The solution to the problem of Shivaji's status was a new genealogy created for the occasion (his "coronation") that traced Shivaji's ancestry back to Rajput roots, for Rajputs were widely accepted as aristrocratic kshatriyas." I've deliberately picked a (new) college history text since it has been vetted for WP:DUE. There are of course many specialist monographs that attest to this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:10, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

PPS This is a controversial area. In cleaning up these articles, one shouldn't be implying that "frontdoor" entries are somehow more legitimate than "backdoor" ones. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Certainly; I have no dog in this fight, I just hate historical whitewashing. If a given group was legally declared Kshatriya by the British in 1893, I'm definitely including that, but I'm not going to anachronistically pretend that they weren't treated as Shudra for the previous two centuries. Legitimacy is pretty immaterial in these cases, it's just a matter of attempting to accurately depict how a given group perceived itself and was perceived by others over time. Just the problem I get is IPs and others pushing back against anything which calls into question their legendary narratives or "compromises" the prestige of their caste. Personally, I don't see what's so embarrassing about being descended from farmers; I realise it has larger socio-political significance in India, but accomodating people's hurt feelings isn't a valid reason to bowlderise history. Thanks for bringing up some great points, and I'll proceed with due caution. MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:54, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Rajputs are Shudras or Kshatriyas?

quite surprising and interesting info about rajputs. i personally dont think these classifications matter anymore, but they are still facts. i am with MV in that i dont understand why the some of these caste members — which i believe is only a tiny vocal minority — are running away to embrace this dubious kshatriya status. this shameful behavior of not being able to get to grips with their own self and history is embarassing. one guy in the Nair talk page questions whether we are deliberately attempting to imply that nair women are prostitutes for adding information related to polyandry among nairs long time ago. MV's post in the Nair talk page about people with these caste last names, living abroad specifically, want to make their heritage look good in front of an international audience makes sense. --CarTick (talk) 18:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I emphasise that I'm trying to WP:AGF with the other editors individually, but as a generality I'm having a hard time finding any motive for the extremely emotional POV-pushing we're seeing on Shudra caste inclusions, other than that some editors are somehow affiliated with these castes and taking any "hit" to caste prestige personally. I concur with CarTick that it is a sad form of self-denial to be unable to face legitimate academic histories of one's background. History may not always be pretty, but we're not going to get anywhere lying to ourselves about it. I also agree that many of these caste designations aren't so vital in the modern day, and clearly plenty of "Shudra"-descended persons are very succesful, but the raw nerve struck by bringing up such history is certainly demonstration that many of these wounds have not yet healed. Not to apply an overly-American "Horatio Alger story" value to it, but one would hope that people would eventually reach the point where they could say, "yes, my ancestors pressed oil or tapped toddy, but they played an important role in our society, and today I'm an investment banker, so anyone who wants to look down on X caste can go stuff it." MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Matthew and CarTick. I think the best we can do is to report the unvarnished reliably sourced history without making any judgements. As for drive-bys, all we can do is to remain vigilant. Since you (Matthew) have advertised the page here, many more people will have it on their watchlist and be able to help you counter vandalism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

PS As for Rajputs, they were not necessarily Shudras, but outside the caste system, i.e. even below the Shudras. In the early medieval age (600–1200 CE) as the agricultural economy grew and land began to be cleared, many people living in the uncleared land (forest people, tribals, pastoralists) had to be accommodated into the caste system. Many were deemed "untouchable" (below the Shudras), however, some were allowed entry at a higher level if they joined the army. The Rajputs, according to Stein and others, belong to the latter category. Their origins are uncertain. Some think they are descendants of Huns. They themselves when not claiming descent from the Sun god have claimed it from the Sakas. Some think they were herders in a part of the country (Rajasthan) that was not very attractive to the developing Vedic culture in the Punjab and the Gangetic plain, and consequently they didn't need to be accommodated until much later. Anyway, this is a little off-topic, as the discussion is about the Yadav/Ahira, so I'll stop. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

To categorize all Rajputs "below" Shudras is wrong. In fact, any effort to "definitively" categorize them in the Vedic caste system is flawed as they were (most likely) foreigners (invaders from Central Asia) who assimilated in the Indian social order. They were christened later, where the leaders were accorded the caste "kshatriyas" and followers "shudras" (Ahirs, Jats, Gujjars etc.). "Yadavs" (Ahirs) are classified by the GoI under either SC/OBCs if I am not mistaken.

The Rajputs regard themselves as descendants or members of the Kshatriya (warrior ruling) class, but they actually vary greatly in status, from princely lineages, such as the Guhilot and Kachwaha, to simple cultivators. Most authorities agree that successful claims to Rajput status frequently were made by groups that attained secular power; invaders from central Asia as well as patrician lines of indigenous tribal peoples were probably absorbed in this way. There are numbers of Muslim Rajputs in the northwest, and Rajputs generally have adopted the custom of purdah (seclusion of women). Their ethos includes an intense pride in ancestry and a mettlesome regard for personal honour. They seek hypergamous marriages (i.e., the bride marrying into a social group higher than her own).

The Rajputs; origins seem to date from a great breakup of Indian society in northern and northwestern India under the impact of the Hephthalites (white Huns) and associated tribes from the mid-5th century ce onward. Following the breakup of the Gupta empire (late 6th century), invading groups were probably integrated within the existing society, with the present pattern of northwestern Indian society being the result. Tribal leaders and nobles were accepted as Kshatriyas, the second order of the Hindus, while their followers entered the fourth (Sudra, or cultivating) order to form the basis of tribal castes, such as the Jats, the Gujars, and the Ahirs. Some of the invaders’ priests became Brahmans (the highest-ranking caste). Some indigenous tribes also attained Rajput status, such as the Rathors of Rajasthan and the Chandelas and of central India. Rajput ancestry can be divided between Suryavanshi (House of the Sun; or Solar people), or those descended from Rama, the hero of the epic Ramayana; and Chandravanshi (House of the Moon; or Lunar people), or those descended from Krishna, the hero of the epic Mahabharata. A third group, Agnikula (Family of the Fire God), is the group from which the Rajputs derive their claim to be Kshatriyas. Rajput habits of eating meat (except beef) and other traits suggest both foreign and aboriginal origins.

Encyclopedia Britannica: Rajputs, retrieved 2011-05-25

“ Most believe Rajputs come from tribes in central Asia such as the Parthians, Kushans, Shakas, and Huns. These groups entered India as conquerors and became kings or rulers. They often married high-caste Hindu women or converted to Hinduism. By the ninth century, Rajputs controlled an empire that extended from Sind to the lower Ganges Valley, and from the Himalayan foothills to the Narmada River.Junior Worldmark Encyclopedia of World Cultures, retrieved 2011-05-25 ”

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.79.218 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 25 May 2011

It's off topic, unsigning IP from Mumbai. Take it up somewhere else. Not here and not on my talk page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:42, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Addition of Indian language scripts for places

I had added Tamil script to the article for Malleswaram article because of the considerably strong Tamil presence in the neighbourhood. However, User:Abhishek191288 has been repeatedly removing it from the article. I have no qualms about my edits being reverted. I will definitely not protest if User:Abhishek191288 was to tell me that the Tamil presence in Malleswaram was not strong enough for Tamil script to be added. However, User:Abhishek191288 reasons that he has been reverting my edits because of the fact that "Tamil is not the official language of the city". Now, we have so many instances of places for which non-official language scripts have been added.

• Mangalore - Official language: Kannada. Tulu, Konkani and Beary names specified.
• Hosur - Official language: Tamil. Telugu and Kannada names given.
• Belgaum - Official language: Kannada. City name given in Marathi script
• Kolar Gold Fields - Official language: Kannada. Name given in Tamil script.
• Udupi - Official language: Kannada. Name given in Tulu and Konkani.
• Delhi - Official language: Hindi. Name given in Punjabi and Urdu scripts.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 17:35, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually it was me who once told Abhishek that we mostly keep official languages and the script of the language from which the name comes from. There is no official policy for this (i think they tried a few times to hash out a policy for this, but failed due to no consensus). It is my opinion it is better we stick to official languages /origin languages, because native script signifies ownership for a lot of people and we get many edit wars because of that. I am glad you have bought this up in the noticeboard. Its time we had a wider discussion on this issue.--Sodabottle (talk) 17:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Mangalore article is an FA and I guess in the discussion, someone had emphasized that scripts in other "significantly spoken" minority language like Konkani and Beary be included. Besides, Tulu is the most widely spoken language in the city. However, I guess, the official language is Kannada and not Tulu.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 17:49, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Cities are probably a different deal altogether. It would not be wise to compare cities to localities, and draw conclusions from that. As Sodabottle says, we'll probably get a lot of edit wars if we include non-native languages. Lynch7 •^Talk 17:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe, for "cities" or "localities" with homogenous populations, the "official language" benchmark might come good. But in places wherein the most official language is not spoken by even half the population, I think we should mention the other "important" languages, too.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 18:03, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The only good reason for including a non-Latin script that most English speakers cannot read is to provide a reference for the name's pronunciation and transliteration. When altlang links are available to articles in other wikis, this becomes unnecessary. Another answer might be to move the names in other scripts to a 'The name xxx' section, thus taking the arguments away from the lead. Imc (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

If this was to be the case, then usage of the International Phonetic Alphabet would be enough. Why should we provide the pronunciation in the locally-used script in the first place. After all, it is pretty obvious that a lay user of Wikipedia from the UK or USA will not be able to read something written in Devanagari or Tamil script or a person from Gujarat or Punjab will not be able to read Chinese or Korean.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 12:26, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I have never been a big fan of too many scripts in the lead: it distracts the readers and means nothing to a vast majority of them. i would just stick with one language. --CarTick (talk) 23:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with CarTick here, with a further alteration that if there are articles in alternate languages space, then the links to them are sufficient for the users. Only in absence of such links do we need to include the official language text. Pronunciation needs to be in the English language, in the English wiki. VasuVR (talk, contribs) 15:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I wish to propose a rule for usage as a benchmark for inclusion of local language scripts in Indian geography articles. I suggest that the following scripts be included.

1. Native language script (or the script pertaining to the language from which the place name is derived)
2. Majority language script
3. Minority language scripts, provided the proportion of speakers of the particular minority language is atleast 1:2 to that of the majority language. Example 1: if lang1 is spoken by 50% of a city's population and lang2 is spoken by more than 25% of the city's population, then scripts pertaining to both lang1 and lang2 be given in the lead. Example 2: If lang1 is spoken by 40% of a city's population and lang2 and lang3 are each spoken by more than 20% of the city's population, then scripts for both lang2 and lang3 be provided.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 12:52, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

(Fact check note) Urdu and Punjabi are also official languages of Delhi. FYI.[1] --rgpk (comment) 13:43, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

As Mike points out that rightly, you cannot compare Malleswaram (as it's a locality) to the cities you have mentioned. Agreeing to what Sodabottle says, it's best if we stick to the official language of the place. With regards to Mangalore, Konkani and Tulu are not a minor languages, they're spoken by a significant population in Mangalore. With regards to Belgaum, Hosur and KGF, I do not know why Marathi, Kannada and Tamil titles respectively have been mentioned. Per what Sodabottle says, these language titles may have to be removed from these three city articles. —Abhishek ^{Talk to me} 14:31, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I've never said that Konkani and Tulu are minor languages in Mangalore. I only said that Konkani and Beary (not Tulu) were "minority languages". Belgaum, Hosur and KGF have as much Marathi, Kannada and Tamil speakers respectively as there are Konkanis in Mangalore.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 14:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Konkani is the official language of Mangalore unlike Marathi for Belgaum, Kannada for Hosur and Tamil for KGF. —Abhishek ^{Talk to me} 14:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Though I doubt your assertion, it does not explain why Beary script is given.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 14:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

In the discussion whether to add Telugu and Kannada script for Hosur or not, there have been references made to the Mangalore article. And it was on basis of the fact that Mangalore article has scripts in four languages in the lead that the decision to include Kannada and Telugu script for Hosur appears to have been taken.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 14:59, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The population of localities is quite mobile, unlike those of cities. It is not fair to compare cities to localities. Lynch7 •^Talk 16:03, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, but Bangalore itself, due to the IT industry, has a huge floating population. And then, it is pretty clear from the article that the foundation of modern "Malleswaram" was laid by a Tamilian and there is a significant Tamil population in the neighbourhood. Now, I don't think there are going to be mass migrations to other areas thereby causing significant changes in demographic patterns. Anyway, the issue is not limited to localities alone, right. -The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 17:55, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Unsuprising problem at 36 royal races

Table of contents detailing the applicable chapter

I saw this title while perusing a cat, and thought "I bet you anything that the list in the article does not match the list in the reference". Sure enough... 37 names. No doubt due to someone from Caste X saying "wait, why is my name not on there? Better add it!" and then castes A, B, C, all the way through J, K, L come in and add names, remove names of castes they don't like, etc.

If we leave it editable, random people are going to come in here and add or subtract names, with good or ill intentions. Since Tod's book is out of copyright, probably the easiest way around this is just to scan an image of that page of the book, post it here as an image, and have the article be about the concept while the list remains an image which cannot be tampered with. Thoughts? Any other articles that need a similar non-tamperable image for lists, etc? MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:03, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if this article meets Wikipedia:Notability. utcursch | talk 14:35, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

There seem to be a lot of hits on gBooks, though almost mention them in the context of the original author and his attempt to catalog the Rajputs. In any case, I did a total rewrite, and gave a direct link to a free eBook of Tod's Rajasthan but did not attempt to replicate the list inside the article, for fear of it being tampered with again. Anyone have any idea better than making a screencap of the actual paper list and posting it as an image? That should avoid any temptation to add/subtract clans from the list. EDIT: I went ahead and used gBooks "clip" tool to get a snapshot of the ToC page. Thoughts?MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Sivakudil‎

The article Sivakudil‎ has been proposed for deletion. The proposed-deletion notice added to the article should explain why.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

Kerala geography article; nearly unintelligible, and I can't find any gBooks hits for verifiabiity. Anyone know of any resources to add, alternate spellings, etc.? MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:59, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a single building - an ashram/school and not a geographic location. here is the building.--Sodabottle (talk) 15:01, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Major cleanup underway at Ahirs

This article has quite a few problems, and I'm working to fix them now:

•  Done Way to many links needing Disambiguation
•  Done Too many images not directly related to the subject (except might need to remove that Mahabarata map too)
• (partial) Too many ELs, some of dubious credibility and applicability, and in some cases origin not noted in cite
• (partial) Various footnotes not done as full citations; I've fixed some of the GoogleBooks ones using http://reftag.appspot.com , which I recommend highly
• Way too much emphasis on claimed/legendary Kshatriya descent, and no description of the Ahir classification as Shudra cowherds, milkmen, etc.
• Lede is too convoluted and unclear; I've done some minor fixing, but it talks too much about history theories and not enough about the modern notability of the Ahir
• History section is way too long and focused on the Abhiriya, with little mention of how applicable that ancient group may be to the modern Ahirs. This article should link to whatever claimed ancient groups, and then explain the theory of descent, rather than just list out a whole claimed multi-millennium history.
• The section on modern Ahir caste-politics is too short; there was some major early 19th C. moving and shaking as the Yadavs, Ahirs, etc. sought to define themselves as Kshatriya
• The History and Distribution sections have significant overlap with Yadav. The info needs to go one way or the other, or be covered in one and linked/summarised in the other, or the two articles need to be merged.
• The Military section was word-for-word the same as in Yadav; same again, there needs to be some differentiation, or remove it from one article or the other entirely.
• Sourcing/footnoting needs extensive improvement throughout.

Those are just a few major observations. I've done some extensive copyedit and re-org which I think has helped, but there's plenty more to be done. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Historiocity of the term Hindavi Swarajya

In Talk:Shivaji an IP a year or so brought up concerns that it's anachronistic to refer to Shivaji's fight against the Moghuls as Hindavi Swarajya (Indian self-rule), arguing that no such concept as "Hindavi" existed at the time. I've looked it up on GoogleBooks, and though a lot of sources mention that Shivaji's movement was a form of Hindavi Swarajya, I can't find any absolutely explicit ref that he used those exact words. I did, however, run across academic debate as to whether this meant Shivaji's struggle was on behalf of Hindus/dharma/cows, or a more general secular movement against Moghul militancy with the "Hindvai" referring to some early concept of a greater non-Moghul India. Does anyone have any thoughts on this, better way to interpret the refs, etc? Also, in the article itself we don't have any native spelling thereof, though again I'm not sure whether spelling it in Hindi would have anachronistic issues, or whether it was originally Marathi, or what. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:36, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Important Wikipedians Meetup in Pune - Campus Ambassador Training (04-05 Jun 2011)

Wikipedia–Wikimedia Meetup Pune, India Meetup - 26 विकिपीडिया विकिभेट, पुणे-24:उद्घोषित time tbd Saturday, 11 January 2020 (tbf) (view .edit .changes) There is a lot happening in Pune next week. We have a lot of visitors in town who would especially like to interact with the Pune Community. Our help and cooperation has been sought for the Campus Ambassador training event next weekend. Our MEETUP DATE IS NOW CHANGED FROM 11 JUN TO 04 JUN 2011 (Saturday) at 1800 hours at SICSR, Atur Centre, Model Colony. Room No 704. 7th floor. Hisham Mundol, National Program Coordinator, who is leading the Campus Ambassador programme, Bishakha Datta, Trustee, and Tinu Cherian, the quintessential Indian outreach activist, will also be coming for and participating in the meet - a rare treat for us. We have a number of people visiting us from abroad. Frank Schulenburg, Head of Public Outreach and Annie Lin, who leads the Ambassador Program are visiting Pune for the Campus Ambassador training event on 04-05 Jun 2011. We also have P.J. Tabit coming down to India between June 1st and August 21st to support the launch of the Wikipedia India Education Program. PJ is a Campus Ambassador in the US and is on the Ambassador Steering Committee for Wikipedia. We also have Tory Read who is coming over to document and write the exciting story of how Wikipedia is developing in the world. She will meet and interact with prominent Pune Wikipedians during that time. Tory will be in Pune for the Campus Ambassador training and after Pune, will be going around from one Wikipedian community to another in various cities of India. Broadly speaking, the campus ambassadors will be trained on 4th and 5th Jun by the outreach team comprising lndian and foreign Wikipedians. In the evening on Saturday, the campus ambassadors and the outreach team will be present for our meetup. AshLin (talk) 12:47, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

IPL 2011 in the main news.

Hi, could we have some support for the IPL 2011 being posted in the main news? The discussion is going on here. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 02:51, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Template:Infobox caste

I've just expanded the {{Infobox caste}} ten fold based on the recent caste related posts here. Please help improve the infobox so we can have all attributes about a caste in one place, irrespective of the regional variations. A general note - please use care in calling a caste Shudra. The caste system was more or less fluid until the arrival of the British so if a particular caste group "upgraded" themselves, we could potentially cover it in the body of the article somehwere (if there is consensus) but we are not in the business of determining whether the caste is presently Shudra or not. A few other things to keep in mind while editing caste articles:

• The constitution of India made the caste system illegal in 1950.
• The United Nations repeatedly calls for treating the caste system as racist system and calls it a human rights violation (the India government repeatedly rejects it).
• Pretty much the only original inhabitants of India are the Adivasis (and their equivalents in other states) and other marginalized groups, most other castes are migrants to India albeit from thousands of years in the past.
• Caste is a sensitive issue even in the new millennium and has led to violence very recently. Shivaji has been the icon of Maharashtrian identity for more than 3 centuries. He enjoys a position of absolute and unrivaled veneration without any parallel in the history of Maharastra. Please utilize caution and care while editing content about Shivaji, whether it is in article space or talk space. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:31, 30 May 2011 (UTC)