Wikipedia talk:Verifiability

Motion is made that WP:V is ambiguous

I move that WP:V is ambiguous with the two meanings:

1. The first sentence of WP:V protects against insertions of material that are alleged to be "true" but not verifiable.
2. The first sentence of WP:V protects against exclusions of material that are alleged to be "not true" but verifiable.

Do I hear a second?
RB  66.217.118.17 (talk) 21:01, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

For reference, the first sentence of WP:V is, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."
RB  66.217.118.17 (talk) 21:52, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

The second paragraph is even more egregious. It states, "All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source...but in practice not everything need actually be attributed". This standard is not merely ambiguous, but outright contradictory. Wikipedia's so-called standards are so arbitrary and convoluted, that they are routinely twisted to justify whatever POV and whim an admin. desires. Wasp14 (talk) 21:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

preliminary discussion about the motion

It does both, except that in cases where something is clearly false, in the sense of being a clear error, and there's no contention about it, editors would agree to leave it out. But material can't be excluded simply because it's a POV that others regard as wrong-headed, so long as the source is reliable—though in the case of a contentious issue, it would have to be a high-quality reliable one (or multiple reliable ones). SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not see a problem. Yes, V does both. But many of our policies have a range of implications and applications. This is not the same thing as "ambiguous." This would be a problem only if it were unclear to readers how to apply V. In my experience the only people who have every ound V "ambiguous" (or wrong or troubling or incomprehensible) are those editors swho come here insisting that they know what the truth is. These are people who may have read our policies but systematically ignore those sentences that tell them that Wp is not about "truth." Then they complain that our policies are self-contradictory. The obvious solution: just read the entire policy, and abandon your own convinction that you are an arbiter of truth. Leave your assumptions at the door and all ambiguities and contradictions and so on disappear. I see no point in writing more about this, when the problem is some users who ignore what has already been written. It is reasonable for us to assume that users will read and accept our policies. It is unreasonable for users to think they can read policies selectively and then make arguments against them. Slrubenstein | Talk 05:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the cited sentence has been written in a careful and deliberate way to avoid the types of ambiguity which are contained in some interpretations of it. So I agree with others here in not seeing the problem. It distinguishes between what editors think is true, and what can be verified. Obviously by the way verifiability has to be considered along with notability and reliability. These three qualities together might be argued to help Wikipedian texts themselves contain truth, BUT it is not the truth according to individuals editors which individual editors should use as their rationale for inclusion of non obvious material. No one would want to read Wikipedia if it was full of false information. But ironically it would be full of false information if individuals editors took their orientation from their individuals ideas about what is true. Does that help?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Help?  No, I can't tell that you are seeing the two different definitions.  When you talk about "their rationale for inclusion" that is definition 1.  Definition 2 involves exclusion. When you talk about "what editors think is true," that is definition 1.  I think that SlimVirgin was on point when he talked about the "exception" that results while applying definition 2.
RB  66.217.117.184 (talk) 09:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but perhaps AL doesn't agree that there are two interpretations there. I don't see one, myself. The first sentence directs us to focus on what can be verified by reliable sources, not what we know as true. It is not perfect, but it works well because it guides us away from discussions about what we believe and towards discussions of what we can prove, and because, generally speaking, reliable sources try to accurately reflect the world. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Straining to find the right metaphor I see two inter-locking pieces, that are not in direct conflict. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The goal is accuracy, where objective accuracy exists. And wp:ver is a very good means to that end. As long as you keep it in its place (rather than trying to reverse engineer a WP mission statement out of it as many do) I think that the fact that the first sentence does two different things does not mean that it is ambiguous. OK, maybe the use of the word "truth" vs "accuracy" is as sort of straw dog tactic against those who argue otherwise, because in actual use, the word "truth" often refers to opinions, while the word "accuracy" seldom does. But either way, it says that the final arbiter is verifiability, including for the two situations that you discuss. North8000 (talk) 11:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the word "threshold" is the source of the trouble. If the wording was "A necessary condition for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, rather than truth" that would make clear that WP:V never mandates inclusion. After all, editors regularly omit verifiable information which is not notable, or felt to be trivial or boring. Being not true is an equally good reason for omission. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 12:34, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I think that that would be a good change. They are both correct, but yours is written in a way that would reduce "mis-launches" from this sentence. North8000 (talk) 13:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think a change is needed on that point, since WP:V does not trump WP:N, where the question of whether something is worth having is dealt with. --Nuujinn (talk) 14:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Verifiability is not the only content guideline. WP:BURDEN presumes that some things will be verifiable yet not be appropriate for a given article; the same with WP:N. The threshold language says precisely what it should. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 15:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the two definitions are "two inter-locking pieces, that are not in direct conflict."  But consider the two definitions as an abstract mathematical entity, generating force on Wikipedia.  Definition (1) is a force opposed to things that "could be true", while Definition (2) is a force to include things that "could be not true".  From m-w.com ambiguity 1b "A word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways."  As long as we don't agree that there are two different forces (an ambiguity), it is harder to discuss any new operational definition for definition (2).  RB  66.217.117.95 (talk) 16:59, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:N has to do with whether or not a topic has sufficient notability to warrant a WP article, not with whether or not a point has sufficient weight to be mentioned in a WP article—that's WP:DUE (part of WP:NPOV). Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

This section has gone off into 4 completely directions. All interesting, but who knows what we're talking about. North8000 01:00, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi North8000. I have also been watching how the dynamic of these talkpages works. I think that the best way to get a focus on something is to make a concrete proposal. But in between concrete proposals people "think about stuff" which can help give proposals a proper hearing.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:17, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

After reading through all of the above commentary and looking up WP:N; I don't agree, at least not yet, that we are herding cats.  Wtmitchell notes that WP:N is not part of content policy; WP:NNC states, "The question of content coverage within a given page is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies."  At the same time, the word "notability" is frequently used (9 times) on this page as it relates to content.  It seems that the word used in the policy is "prominence" (used 2 times on this page), but for now I understand that "notability" used here is a content issue.  It would be in the scope of a different post to explain how I see that "notability/prominence" is central to the ambiguity.  For now I'll say that both of the posts opposed to the wording change to remove "threshold" are confounded.  RB  66.217.118.89 (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

A related discussion has closed without resolution, and one suggestion from this discussion remains viable, the suggestion of 12:34, 27 November 2010.  I support the change from "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia..." to "A necessary condition for inclusion in Wikipedia...", as I think the suggestion goes in the right direction.  RB  66.217.117.73 (talk) 22:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Opinion X, Opinion Y, and Opinion Z

This is an attempt to further clarify the ambiguity.

Introductory notes:

• The term "WP:V-2010" is used below to mean the current first sentence in WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."

• Definitions #1 and #2 have been previously discussed in this section:

1. The first sentence of WP:V protects against insertions of material that are alleged to be "true" but not verifiable.
2. The first sentence of WP:V protects against exclusions of material that are alleged to be "not true" but verifiable.

- - - - - - - - - - -

    Opinion X, Opinion Y, and Opinion Z

Definition #1:  a force opposed to things that "could be true"

• Group A:  Has no interest in things that "could be true".   (WP:V-2010), (empowers Definition #1)
• Group B:  Has an interest in things that "could be true".   (they might be true, even if not verifiable)

Definition #2:  a force to include things that "could be not true"

• Group C:  Has no interest in things that "could be not true".   (WP:V-2010), (empowers Definition #2)
• Group D:  Has an interest in things that "could be not true".   (they might not be true, even if verifiable)
• Opinion X:  Groups A and C are "right thinking".  The thinking of members of Groups B and D wastes time.  WP:V-2010 is used to operationally define WP:ELNO "factually inaccurate material."  No changes are needed to policy.
• Opinion Y:  Groups A and D are "right thinking".  Members of Groups B and C need to read the policies.  Editors have common sense, and work together to apply the force of reason.  The force of reason is used in determining "factually inaccurate material".  No changes are needed to policy.
• Opinion Z:  Groups A and D are "right thinking".  Members of Group B are placing personal opinions about the truth of what is "true" over and above a practical operational definition of "true".  Verifiability is not itself "truth", and Opinion X "true believers" are placing personal opinions about the truth of what is "not true" over and above an operational definition of "not true".  The force of reason is being displaced by WP:V-2010 in deciding if something is "factually inaccurate material."  Editor concensus is not now empowered to decide that something verifiable has its notability/prominence reduced by being "not true".  Changes are needed to policy.  RB  66.217.117.47 (talk) 21:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Some practical concerns

I am new to this activity, and cannot presume to enter the debate about policy. In case it is useful, here are some ways it could restrict me. (1) Many years ago, the New York Times published an article about problems caused by the operation of the Aswan Dam, denouncing engineers for actions without anticipating consequences. That is a verifiable statement that could be included in an article about science / engineering and public policy. I cannot refute it by dint of having been in a meeting in Khartoum, when the hydrological advisers to the Egyptian government arrived and stated the plans that politicians had made. Everyone of the hydrologists present knew what the consequences would be and were unhappy. But my recollection is not verifiable. (2) An article about an opera company printed a remark about a stand-in soprano that, for her, constituted praise. Someone told the reporter that she (the reporter) had made a mistake, and the published comment applied the remark to the actual lead soprano who is the subject of a WP article. Applied to her, it is derogatory. I was not able to get the paper to publish an effective correction. If my misquoted remark were to be quoted in the WP article, it would be "verifiable". My refutation would not. I have more examples of "verifiable" statements that could, in principle, get into articles, that could not be refuted by recollection of personal involvement (these include newspaper reports mentioning people who had namesakes in the same locality). Hopefully my concerns are the result of my ignorance of WP procedures. And I realize that inclusion of non-"verifiable" recollections can lead to serious unintentional and intentional statements that are "untrue" Michael P. Barnett (talk) 13:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Your concerns are valid, but the question is, what to do about it? Do we accept your recollection regarding the Aswan Dam? If we do, do we accept the recollection of a person claiming to be at the same meeting, but with a different recollection? Do we then also accept the claims of representatives of the Egyptian government that a Micheal Barnett is a disgruntled trouble maker? There are plenty of places where the discussions are like that, here we try to mitigate the he said/she said arguments by turning to reliable sources. If you have not read it, please take a look at WP:TRUTH. I hope that helps clarify things. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

What you need to do in the first case (re: the Aswan Dam) is find a way to reliably publish your recollections. Then we can use your published recollections as a source. In the second case, as the person who was essentially misquoted by a source, I think you do have an argument that the source contains an error, and thus should be considered unreliable in respect to a specific statement as to your words. We can not say that you meant the quote to apply to the stand it (we don't have a source for that), but do have some justification for omiting reference to your comment as it applies to the actual lead soprano. (The fact that something is verifiable does not mean we must discuss it in an article.) Blueboar (talk) 16:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Both comments helpful and triggered further ideas. Re Aswan Dam, I remembered the names of the two advisers to Egyptian govt They were directors of major labs in France and Netherlands that now have extensive websites. They may have articles in French and Dutch Wikis. If this were to become a big deal (it is not for me, I mentioned it only for illustration) I could ask the lab archivists. Not sure of usability of "sub-literature" numbered lab reports. Quite possible an Egyptian minister took credit for decision at time, with press release. I suppose I should check if there is an Egyptian Wiki and follow up through that if there is. As regards hostility to comment, I was thinking more of New York Times. Will talk to DataSpace people about possible durable web depository for well indexed recollections of the elderly, that might be of scholarly use, for future browsing. Comment on local news gaff about soprano reassures. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 18:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Madonna's "Confessions" album sales

• I have stated that Madonna's "COADF" album sold 8.5 million and have sources from her record label that state it, yet the Madonna fans on wiki feel the need to revert it back to the "12 million worldwide stated" in a newspaper article from the Chicago Sun Times. Can anyone back me up please?ARMOR89 (talk) 00:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

  If there's an actual dispute among reliable sources, you can use them both, and explain where each number came from. The old WP:NPOV saw about describing debates but not engaging in them. Hopefully, that process of explanation (and/or further research) will reveal the root of the contradiction. Ocaasi (talk) 00:51, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: WP:RS should be expanded and should explicitly trump WP:V

The discussion is here: [1]

Your thoughts are appreciated. The "oldest people" question, and how to verify such people, is only what set off discussion. SBHarris 23:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I take your point as noteworthy that the WP:V page is not sourced with reliable references.  I believe that the operational force at work for the WP:V page is the force of reason.  I agree with your concerns that WP:V shows contempt and sarcasm for "the truth".  In a recent discussion archived yesterday, a proposal was made to remove the word "truth", but that point was not at the center of the discussion.  That the WP:V could be re-written to not use the word "truth," in no way displaces the operational definition for inclusion in the encyclopedia, which is verifiability.

So the specific answer to your proposal is that WP:V is one of the five pillars, and WP:RS (referenced as WP:IRS on the WP:V page) is a subsidiary guideline.  So any problem with WP:IRS caused by WP:V would need to gets changes made at WP:V such that WP:IRS remained subsidiary.

IMO there are two standards hidden in WP:V, one is the operational definition for "true" which has consensus, and the second is the operational definition for "not true", which is in dispute.

These three quotes are germane to a discussion here of things that are "not true":

But fails utterly to say what you do if all that is available (as above) for sourcing, is a primary source AND a news source that misquotes it.

A verifiable source is worth nothing (in fact less than nothing) if it isn’t true.

there’s no point in having verified cites to articles that err.

And when you state, "The most important thing is that the statements in Wikipedia be TRUE," I think you are sensing things that "could be not true" and objecting to their presence; because you immediately state, "Being watched by the eyes of informed people and experts, is how Wikipedia maintains true articles".  RB  66.217.117.72 (talk) 18:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

The use of the word "truth" instead of "accuracy" in WP policies and guidelines is problematic in several respects. The first is that it allows or encourages the pervasive misstatements about what wp:ver and wp:truth actually say. What they ACTUALLY say that nothing trumps the requirement for sourcing. The pervasive mis-statement about these is to claim that accuracy is not an objective of or valued by Wikipedia. Next, the substitution of the word "truth" instead of the word "accuracy" is POV disparagement of the concept or goal of accuracy, in areas where objective accuracy exists. "Accuracy" is much less ambiguous, whereas the word "truth" has a dual meaning in common use, one of them being opinions or beliefs where such is contrary to objective accuracy, or where objective accuracy does not exist.

Structurally, the "verifiability, not truth" statement is a statement that verifiability is absolutely required, and which gives "truth" as an example of something that does not trump the verifiability requirement. IMHO this inclusion of an "example" (and only one example) with the verifiability statement makes it less clear, and more prone to misinterpretation. Sincerely, North8000 20:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Ease of access

Suppose someone cites several fictional classified papers. Access to sources states that "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources". I interpret the rules quite literally. Do I have to break into the Pentagon to prove that it is a hoax? Marcus Qwertyus 21:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

That sentenced is prefaced by the comment: "anyone should be able to check that material". "Classified" means that not anyone can access it, so a classified document would not be a reliable/verifiable source until someone makes it publicly available. Location (talk) 21:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Clarified. Marcus Qwertyus 21:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

No, I think the edit you made makes the statement more ambiguous, so restored the early information. It is the source of the information we need access to, yes? --Nuujinn (talk)

All I did was reassert that the source must be published. It's contradictory: "anyone should be able to check that material "≠ "implies nothing about ease of access to sources". Marcus Qwertyus 23:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

With respect, no, what you wrote was "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to information published by a reliable source". My point is that it is the source we must have access to, not the information published by the source. The information published by the source may be available in many other places; wikipedia, blogs, etc., which are not reliable. To verify the information, we must have access to the source. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:08, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay then. How about "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access if it has (or "as long as it has") been published by a reliable source". Marcus Qwertyus 00:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on what's wrong with the current wording, I'm not sure I understand what you're seeing as problematic. Sorry to be dense. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

My point wasn't to add the bit about the reliability of the source, just that it has to be published and therefore accessible. Marcus Qwertyus 01:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I get that, but what is wrong with "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources"? --Nuujinn (talk) 01:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Nuujinn. It should be obvious that a source thats a classified document can't be used to support something in an article. Thats covered by their not being listed in WP:RS, where it says "reliable published" sources. AaronY (talk) 01:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I think AaronY has a point since "publish", "publication", and "public" all have a common Latin root in the word publicus (“pertaining to the people”).  RB  66.217.118.112 (talk) 22:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Copyright

I've reverted an addition which I feel is already covered under our copyvio guidelines; its pointless imho to cover guidelines in more than one place and given how daunting the scope of our entire MoS is (probably 200+ pages if printed out), I don't feel there is a need to over-explain things or lengthen rather than tighten guidelines in many areas. Lets just try to stay on topic here. AaronY (talk) 20:29, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

• It is already covered under WP:COPYVIO and that's where all detailed discussion of the issue should stay. All this page needs is a two-sentence mention of the fact that you can follow the sources too closely, plus a direct pointer to the policy. The background and context to this edit, of course, isn't completely unrelated to the circumstances in which User:Rlevse became a redlink: WP:V has genuinely been used as a reason for substantial copyright violations in the encyclopaedia. The problem the edit was supposed to address is not just theoretical.—S Marshall T/C 20:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm aware of the Rlevse fiasco. I still don't think we need to summarize one guideline in another. There's always a tendency to over-explain in these guidelines which has the opposite effect of the one desired. Once they become too long or digress too much people's attentions begin to wander. I'd be interested to see what others think. AaronY (talk) 22:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

This could obviously go either way. Brevity v Spell-it-out. Suffice to say, the tension between V and COPYVIO is a real one, and a brief pointer for resolving that tension is not a bad idea. Ocaasi (talk) 23:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Is 2 to 1 consensus now? Oh well I guess if someone else comments we can change it back. AaronY (talk) 15:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I think all we need is a pointer, with no explanation. Explaining how to avoid copyvio here just increases the chance of confusion or conflicts between here and elsewhere. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Pointers can do the trick in such cases, but they should be clear.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:56, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

"Threshold" again

Threshold is a word of many meanings, but the nearest relevant one, following wiktionary, is

• (engineering) The quantitative point at which an action is triggered, especially a lower limit

To say that verifiability is the threshold for inclusion therefore implies that it triggers inclusion, and that everything verifiable is included. This would be a ridiculous proposition, never followed in practice, so it's a bit silly to state it thus. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 13:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, from an engineering standpoint, your deduction is not 100% correct. A trigger can be what normally causes the event to happen, but still subject to other criteria. Trigger/gun is a great analogy...pulling the trigger normally fires it, but only if the safety is flipped off. But I agree that the term is ambiguous in an area where it is important that it be un-ambiguous. Also, the inclusion of an example ("truth") in that sentence of something that does not trump the requirement is also confusing and problematic. North8000 13:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Can you clarify what is ambiguous in the current version? --Nuujinn (talk) 14:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Verifiability is the first of several thresholds for inclusion. But it is not the only threshold for inclusion. The fact that something is verifiable means that it passes the first test and may potentially be included (it also has to pass the other thresholds). However, because Verifiability is the first threshold, it does mean that anything that is not verifiable may be excluded. Blueboar (talk) 14:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Its never implied (to me at least) that its the only threshold. AaronY (talk) 15:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll use terms from normal logic. Verifiability, the way policy is worded, is necessary but not sufficient. Material also has to be notable, and there are also some special rules for special cases.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the best other requirement to consider as proof that not all verifiable material should be included is that a consensus must be reached among the article editors that material is interesting enough to include in an encyclopedia. Notability applies to an article as a whole, but the interesting criteria applies to each claim within an article. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Bearing in mind that this is the change I wanted to introduce, it seems to me that everybody agrees that it says the right thing, some people agree that it's an improvement, and some people think that it's unnecessary because the existing text already says that, but nobody thinks that what I've proposed is actually wrong. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the patronization Alex. I guess what I'm saying is that its obvious to me if Bill Clinton attends a softball game in Peoria and it makes the local paper it doesn't merit inclusion in his article, even though technically this guideline says that it does. I don't care if the wording is changed, but I've never for a second thought it meant anything with a source gets in. Its common sense that it wouldn't. AaronY (talk) 17:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This guideline sets the minimum for inclusion while WP:NPOV and WP:NOTABILTY are for weight and relevance. Just because we don't summarize those policies here (which we could) doesn't suggest anyone take the policy in isolation (in fact, that's explicitly cautioned against). Ocaasi (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a need to change the language... The intent of the statement is to outline what may and may not be added. If no reliable sources verify Clinton's attendance at the softball game, we may not mention it (even if his attendance is "true"). If reliable sources verify his attendance then we may mention it... but that permission does not mean we must mention it. I think this is clear in the current language. Blueboar (talk) 18:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

The previous time these issues came up we ran into a language problem with both the word "notability" and the relation of WP:N to content policy.  As noted by Wtmitchell [here], WP:N is not part of content policy.  WP:NNC states, "The question of content coverage within a given page is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies."  At the same time, the word "notability" is frequently used on this page as it relates to content.  It seems that the word used in the WP:WEIGHT policy is "prominence".  Since I didn't like the word "prominence" in this context, I started referring to "notability/prominence".  FYI, RB  66.217.118.112 (talk) 23:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is another definition of "threshold", the point being that a threshold isolates two states:

www.merriam-webster.com threshold 3b : a level, point, or value above which something is true or will take place and below which it is not or will not.

A threshold for inclusion is therefore also a threshold for the absence of inclusion.  This is technically an ambiguity, where "ambiguity" is defined in www.merriam-webster.com as ambiguity 1b : "A word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways".

The problem for policy arises in considering verifiable material for the "absence of inclusion".  WP:V says that editors cannot consider material that "could be not true" for the "absence of inclusion".  RB  66.217.118.112 (talk) 02:15, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

There's also WP:Editorial discretion. Editors are expected, even required, to use their best judgment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The "threshold for inclusion" implies a necessary, not a sufficient, condition. If the threshold for your inclusion at a party is that you bring the hostess some wine, it doesn't mean you'll be let in if you arrive with the wine, but also drunk and covered in mud. But there are times when the existence of a reliable source would be a sufficient condition too: if the article is underdeveloped, for example, or if the point is one required for NPOV.

We should be careful not to add anything to the policy that editors could use to reject reliable sources, because everything depends on context. What the policy currently implies is that if you arrive at an article with a good source, there has to be a strong editorial reason to keep your material out. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 06:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)