Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC: Difference between revisions
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:::By the way, Dank voted for 85% and made a talk page argument for it [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Community_de-adminship/Draft_RfC#Discussion_of_Vote_2 here] - so we should add him to the current 'consensus' figures (it was in the back of my mind at the time to do this). [[User:Matt Lewis|Matt Lewis]] ([[User talk:Matt Lewis|talk]]) 21:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC) |
:::By the way, Dank voted for 85% and made a talk page argument for it [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Community_de-adminship/Draft_RfC#Discussion_of_Vote_2 here] - so we should add him to the current 'consensus' figures (it was in the back of my mind at the time to do this). [[User:Matt Lewis|Matt Lewis]] ([[User talk:Matt Lewis|talk]]) 21:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::::At this point, I've said all I can think of to say. I think that I have completely refuted what you say, but, obviously, I have not convinced you, and you have not convinced me. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC) |
::::At this point, I've said all I can think of to say. I think that I have completely refuted what you say, but, obviously, I have not convinced you, and you have not convinced me. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC) |
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Regarding reading [[bimodal distribution]], I did and also previously read your Tryptofish's earlier writing on the deceptions inherent. IANAS! again, but I think given the questions asked at the poll, !votes from people who oppose overall and the low sample size, if I were a statistician I would throw the poll (VOTE 2) to the wind. It is fairly characterized as flawed. My point is that, since were are speaking in terms of generalities, guidelines, rule-of-thumb, and so on, then using a hard percentage figure is being more inflexible than is needed, despite the wording of the paragraph in question. I am suggesting, through simplification of the language, we stop saying (colloquially) "the votes should be counted, then in general be either above X exact number to pass or below Y exact number to fail." Instead, more in the spirit of offering a general approximation, we use very simple, easy to understand common fractions. I will even reduce it to a simple ratio, using T's above blockquoted text but with the numbers for two-thirds and five-sixths given as a ratio: |
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<blockquote>The point of the process is determining the consensus ''of the Community at large''. For an Administrator to have the sysop right removed, a Bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether ''both'' a minimum of 50 editors and a general [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] supporting the removal has taken place. Consensus can be difficult to ascertain, and it is not a numerical measurement. As a general descriptive rule of thumb, most of those above approximately 5:1 support for removal are passed, while most of those below approximately 2:1 fail, and the area in between is subject to Bureaucratic discretion.</blockquote> |
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The change I am suggesting is an effort to show that, without being excruciatingly fine about how we interpret a flawed poll, we can come to figures that both come close to approximating both views (Matt and Tryptofish) of what VOTE 2 meant and also be true to the spirit of allowing discretion. Substitute 4:1 for 5:1 above, you have 80%. There is not convenient ratio for 65%, it is 13:7 which, of course, would be viewed as entirely too fine. Can you see that what I am trying to do is remove rigidity ''from the overall tone of the sentence,'' rather than have the contrast of flexibility ("As a general descriptive rule of thumb...") with rigidity ("above 80%"..."below 65%") within the same sentence? |
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What I am looking toward is the publication of the CDA after it passes the RFC. There, using the best, clearest language we can come up with will strengthen the meaning of the words. I am afraid too much time is being spent here worrying about how to please voters in the RFC, and not enough on the actual spirit of the living document when it passes. Imaging trying to explain what the numbers mean to a new friend you just met in a pub. In the simplest layman's terms, you tell the new friend "Most of the time, if the guy gets voted against five to one, he's out. But if the ones who want him out can't get two to one votes against him, he stays. But, the judge also listens to the arguments and sometimes it's his call either way." Try explaining it a different way, involving polls and bimodal distributions and ... wait, you've lost him. He represents the busy editors and bureaucrats who will be using the document as a guide, that is who we need to guide with truly meaningful language, not each other here. |
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So, the spread between 2:1 and 5:1 is in decimal notation (83.3 - 66.7 = 16.6), and between 2:1 and 4:1 is (80.0 - 66.7 = 13.3). Neither of those spreads is 20%, and both to me are close enough to Tryptofish's 15% spread maximum, ''as approximate, "descriptive rule of thumb" numbers,'' to be effective once CDA is actually in place. Enough people did show a preference for "None" that I am keeping 5:1 as my first choice. |
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I know not every person in the world is reasonable, so some future sysop might fight tooth and nail to stay on even if over 2:1 editors think he shouldn't. But I think there is a benefit to having these fine officeholders realize that, if two out of every three people are against their service, they should start looking for something else to do on Wikipedia. And, as clearly as I can state it, I think having simple, everyday numbers like "two-to-one" in mind will help keep potential future candidates for CDA from making two many enemies. Is another week going to pass without resolution of this simple dilemma? I am seeking to have everyone look at the figures as the are purported to be in the opening of the sentence: a "general descriptive rule of thumb". This continued discussion of polling, analysis and tug-of-war over exact percentages says to me that the words are meant to be less general than the reader is led to believe. I think final passage will be assisted by leaving out exact numbers and instead giving simple ratios, preceded by the word approximately as in the latest suggested revision I posted above. [[User:Sswonk|Sswonk]] ([[User talk:Sswonk|talk]]) 22:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC) |
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== Concern about the "good standing" definition == |
== Concern about the "good standing" definition == |
Revision as of 22:39, 31 January 2010
Quick links
These links show the present version of the CDA proposal this page is intended to work on.
- Wikipedia:Guide to Community de-adminship - the current CDA proposal
- Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/FAQ - frequently asked questions on CDA
- Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/Example - an example of a CDA case page
- Wikipedia:Community de-adminship - the 'portal' page
Please read the sections "Background", "Purpose of this Discussion", and "General Observation" below for an introduction to what is going on.
Background
This discussion follows on from those at Wikipedia:WikiProject Administrator/Admin Recall and the associated talk page. There, a poll was conducted that attempted to evaluate the levels of community support for various proposals seeking to create a method by which the community at large (as opposed to Arbitration Committee) could pass comment on the actions of and if necessary remove the tools from, existing Administrators.
The main conclusions of this poll were as follows:`
- The status quo, (i.e. no such process being available) whilst garnering some support, was very unpopular. 77% of respondents did not support its continuation.
- Only one proposal achieved a greater degree of support than opposition – "Wikipedia:Community de-adminship" (CDA) – which received a majority of 13, and the support of 65% of those who considered it.
- "Make CAT:AOTR mandatory" was remarkably unpopular, with 96% opposed.
- Various other proposals received some real support and/or little opposition.
The detailed results are at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Administrator/Admin Recall#Results table. (Note that the higher numbered proposals appeared later in the process and were therefore viewed by fewer respondents.)
The reasons for dissatisfaction with the status quo are complex and varied, but a view was regularly expressed that if the community at large has the authority to appoint administrators through the RfA process, then the community should also be able to remove their powers.
Purpose of this discussion
The aim of this project page and its associated discussion is to refine the existing Wikipedia:Community de-adminship (CDA) proposal, in order to create a formal Request for comment (RfC), in the expectation that this will result in the final version of this proposal being implemented on the English Wikipedia.
Late Comments after Jan 4th
The main discussion was held between 22 November 2009 and 8pm (GMT), on Monday 4th January 2010. A summary of the results follows. A request was made to extend the deadline for further input, and comments are welcome in the #ACTIVE DISCUSSION section below.
- if sufficient consensus has been reached on the details the RFC will go live as a formal proposal for community consideration, or
- if further discussion would be useful, it will be extended
'Next Steps' section
A section has been created below at #Completing the CDA revision process for discussion of the revision process, including, if need-be, other suggestions.
Archiving
If it is clear that a strong consensus exists that parts of the discussion (excluding the proposal itself, or the outcome at this point) will be archived from the week beginning 4st December 2009. This does not mean that further comments or opinions cannot be posted, and if necessary the discussion re-activated. The archiving will be undertaken to:
- save space on this large and complex page and
- avoid the need for larger numbers of editors to record opinions in cases where the outcome is (apparently) already clear.
Note: Due to various organising, the numbering system of original discussions may have changed.
General observations
In many cases the discussions are a conflict between:
On the pro-change side:
- The desire to make the process simpler or easier to implement, in order to prevent Administrators who have seriously abused their position to continue without fear of sanction.
- The desire to address concerns over the democratic processes on Wikipedia. Concern has been raised over the level of accountability that results from the existing process, where Administrators can be voted in but cannot be voted out. Concerns are often raised by Wikipedians that Administrators can wield powers that Admin were not originally intended to so-often use. It has been argued that greater accountability could bring with it an improvement in care, accuracy and neutrality throughout the project, and lead to less cynicism towards Admin from editors, creating a more trustful editing environment. It has been suggested that the CDA process could be one that brings arbitrators or bureaucrats closer to the editors, and that the outcome of a CDA in certain matters need not always end in the full removal of Administrator status.
- It has been argued that some Admin could be tempted to resist any change to the existing process, simply because they would be in a less secure position if change comes about, and that concerns of a likely negative outcome are hypothetical, as we haven't tried any new system yet, or 'ironed out' the best one to propose.
On the critical or negative about change side:
- The desire to avoid a flawed system in which Administrators, who almost inevitably find themselves taking on potentially controversial tasks on the community's behalf, are discouraged from performing their duties correctly (or at all), for fear of reprisals through a 'Recall' method that could be too easily abused by aggrieved editors who aren't getting their way.
- The desire to avoid a flawed system in which Administrators can protect themselves in an easily 'gameable' process, which would strengthen their position, and could make them immune from further action for a long period.
- It has been argued that no change is needed, as Wikipedia already has an RFC process that can lead to 'de-sysoping' (removing admin status), and that some people could be supporting change simply so they can 'go after' particular Admin (perhaps to weaken the position the Admin rightly defends), and generally behave in a biased or negative way.
There were originally eight discussion sections on this page, based on the eight major criticisms of the CDA proposal raised during the previous poll. Some of those sections have been archived, other sections were added here at a later date.
The Motion to close
A "Motion to close" was proposed on 22 December 2009 (UTC).
The result at 4 January 2010 (UTC) was:
- Support 22
- Oppose 45
- Neutral 0
Completing the CDA revision process
The sections in the To Do list are correspond (though not in order) with the sections at Wikipedia:Guide to Community de-adminship (the working CDA proposal). All of them need completing.
Summary of prior discussions and polls
This is a summary of each of the proposed changes to the CDA proposal. The full polls are archived in archive 1.
Many of these were addressed at the time, with the outstanding ones to be dealt with here.
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
1. Ten editors to open
- Proposal 1.1 Replace "10 editors to open" with "7 editors to open"
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 0
- Oppose 17
- Neutral 4
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
2. Definition of "editor in good standing"
- See also: section below.
Existing wording: Editors in good standing:
- may not be subject to Arbitration enforcement editing restrictions, Arbitration Committee restrictions, or Community restrictions, including, but not limited to, topic bans, project bans, and paroles.
- must be active editors on the English Wikipedia, with accounts more than three months old and with no fewer than 500 edits.
Proposal 2.1 Replace/Add current definition with... "Except where such sanctions were enacted (or were caused to be enacted) by the admin being subject to this process, and the editor is otherwise in good standing".
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 2
- Oppose 8
- Neutral 1
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 19:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Proposal 2.2 Change second bullet point from 500 edits to 150 edits.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 4
- Oppose 12
- Neutral 1
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 19:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Proposal 2.3 For clarity, proposed wording - "Nomination by the Community at large may be initiated by any registered user, though requires the signed support of no fewer than 9 editors in good standing"
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 1
- Oppose 0
- Neutral 1
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:08, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
3. Publicity required
Existing wording:
- Nomination by the Community at large requires the signatures of no fewer than 10 editors in good standing (defined below), within a period not longer than 3 days. Signatures must be placed in the nomination area of the requests, as a simple signed bullet point.
- Nominations are not valid unless all of the following apply:
- The Arbitration Committee has passed a motion, or the requisite number of signatures have been collected.
- A notice of the de-adminship request is currently placed on each of Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous), the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, and the Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard. (Anyone may post such a notice.)
- A notice of the de-adminship request is currently given to the account whose rights are to be changed.
and
- Discussion and polling proceeds for at least 7 days after discussion opens. Discussion and polling may be summarily closed ahead of that 7 day deadline at the discretion of Bureaucrats and the Arbitration Committee.
Poll finding
- There were questions about the number of days of prior publicity required and how the information would be publicized to the community.
Proposal 3.1 Change 3 days to 7 days.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 20
- Oppose 9
- Neutral 4
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:31, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Proposal 3.2 Modify the second bullet point about publicity.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 1
- Oppose 4
- Neutral 0
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
4. A minimum 50 supporters for desysop
Existing wording
- No request shall be closed as a de-sysopping if fewer than 50 editors supported the desysopping.
- Proposal 4.1 Replace current minimum (50) with 100.
Result at time/date of this edit
- Support 0
- Oppose 10
- Neutral 1
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
5. Need more concrete percentages for de-sysoping
Note: Given how central this issue is to the proposal, this section will not be archived until the period for commenting has ended.
Existing wording
- Bureaucrats are given the same discretion, and determine the community consensus in exactly the same manner, as at Requests for Adminship, with one added restriction. In unclear cases, multiple Bureaucrats may be involved. The added restriction is that no request shall be closed as a de-sysopping if fewer than 50 editors supported the desysopping. (The point of the process is determining the consensus of the Community at large.)
Poll finding Some editors were not clear if this meant that an existing Administrator needed to:
- receive 70% community support to continue in their role, or
- receive 70% community opposition to be de-sysopped.
Possible options There are presently four options: 5.1 would require 70% to desysop. 5.2 would require 70% to retain administrator status. 5.3 would require majority sentiment to desysop. 5.4 would require consensus to desysop.
5.1 Add to the current wording:
- "Thus, for an Administrator to be de-sysopped, a minimum of 50 editors and 70% of those expressing an opinion must support the desysopping."
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 19
- Oppose 17
- Neutral 0
Details archived per above. 22:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
5.2 Add to the current wording:
- "Thus, for an Administrator to be de-sysopped, a minimum of 50 editors must express an opinion, and fewer than 70% of those expressing an opinion must oppose the desysopping."
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 1
- Oppose 25
- Neutral 3
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 22:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
5.3 Add to the current wording:
- "Thus, for an Administrator to be de-sysopped, a minimum of 50 editors and a majority of those expressing an opinion must support the desysopping."
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 6
- Oppose 16
- Neutral 1 plus two comments
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 22:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
5.4 Add to the current wording:
- "Thus, for an Administrator to be de-sysopped, a bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether both a minimum of 50 editors and a general consensus supports de-sysopping. Consensus is sometimes difficult to ascertain and is not a numerical measurement, but as a general descriptive rule of thumb, above ~80% support for de-sysopping would be acceptable; while support below ~70% would not be, and the area between is subject to bureaucratic discretion."
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 16
- Oppose 5
- Neutral 2
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 22:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Plus discussion of "WARNING NOTE" (parts of which only follow)
Numeric/percentage based systems are game-able/can be gamed/have been gamed in the past.
A numeric-based system for de-adminship, in combination with the current percentage-based requests for adminship opens a potential exploit:
A sufficiently well informed and motivated party (be it for the lulz, or for more serious reasons), would be able to perform a hostile takeover of Wikipedia, at least temporarily. As follows:
- place a sufficient number of supporters on wikipedia for a long enough period to become established, similar to the methods now used for making stealth-socks (but no actual socking is required)
- +admin supporters
- -admin detracting admins
- one now has sufficient power to subtly alter wikipedia's behaviour as one sees fit.
- With sufficient admins on attacking side, one could speed up the process, and simply start blocking all detractors outright, wheel-warring as necessary. This would -however- attract a lot of attention to the takeover, and thus might lead to foundation intervention.
--Kim Bruning (talk) 14:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- This process seems to be showing an inherent bias in administrators supporting their own. Gaming is likely to work in an admins favor. I favor an implementation of nominators restricted to one nominee per month but a 50% threshold for removal subject to bureaucratic discretion. I don't see that proposal anywhere. By the way the CdA process does have the potential benefit of possibly serving as bait to expose user accounts created for sabotaging purposes that currently silently eat away at the project. Lambanog (talk) 07:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
6. Should not have the Bureaucrats involved at all
- Existing wording:
- Bureaucrats determine the consensus of the community, using both the opinion poll and the discussion on the talk page.
- Poll finding
- Some repondents felt that this put too much onus on Bureaucrats. Note that input from Bureaucrats is being/has been sought.
Result of discussion at date/time of this edit:
- Support 0
- Oppose 10
- Neutral 2
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 09:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
7. Too easy to game the system
A general comment and specific wordings may not apply. Poll finding: Some editors believed that Administrators would find the system too easy to beat, even if there was widespread opposition to their continuing in the role, while others felt that it would be too easy to bring frivolous charges against good Administrators.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 1
- Oppose 2
- Neutral/Comments 4
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui
8. Possible outcomes short of full desysoping
- Existing wording
- There are two outcomes. Either the sysop right is to be removed or it is not.
- Poll finding
- Some respondents suggested a wider range of outcomes might be desirable.
8.1 Replace current wording with... An admin may be desysopped indefinitely, and may only regain the flags by making a new Request for Adminship, or for a period to be determined during the process, of not more than one year. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:51, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 2
- Oppose 11
- Neutral 0
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
8.2 Instead, allow for more discussion and not simple bulleted !votes. Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 12
- Oppose 0
- Neutral 0
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
9. Nominators with conflicts of interests
Current wording: Where nomination is made by editors in good standing, those editors:...
Proposed wording: Where nomination is made by editors in good standing, those editors: ... should not be nominating in a manner which is or appears to be related to a content dispute. Editors which have had recent or well-known content disputes related to the administrator are strongly encouraged to act as if they are ineligible to nominate.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 0
- Oppose 8
- Neutral 1
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 19:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
10. Allow non-eligible nominations but don't count them as such
Current wording:
- Nomination by the Community at large requires the signatures of no fewer than 10 editors in good standing (defined below), within a period not longer than 3 days. Signatures must be placed in the nomination area of the requests, as a simple signed bullet point.
Proposed wording:
- Nomination by the Community at large requires the signatures of no fewer than 10 editors in good standing (defined below), within a period not longer than 3 days. Editors not in good standing or who wish to claim a conflict of interest may nominate, but their nominations will not count toward the minimum. Signatures must be placed in the nomination area of the requests, as a simple signed bullet point. Nominations by editors who have a real or apparent conflict of interest or who are not in good standing must be clearly identified as "ineligible to nominate or conflict of interest" or similar wording.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 2
- Oppose 6
- Neutral 2
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
11. Clarify restoration
- Clarify that ARBCOM and others who sanction can restore rights to nominate
Proposed wording: Current wording: Where nomination is made by editors in good standing, those editors:...
- may not be subject to Arbitration enforcement editing restrictions, Arbitration Committee restrictions, or Community restrictions, including, but not limited to, topic bans, project bans, and paroles, without the permission of the Arbitration Committee or another person or group empowered to lift those restrictions.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 1
- Oppose 0
- Neutral 5
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
12. Not to be used during arbitration
Current wording: None.
Proposed wording: This process may not be initiated while the administrator is the subject of an arbitration case concerning the use of his or her administrative tools, or while such a case is pending acceptance by the arbitration committee. If this process is already underway, it is strongly encouraged that anyone considering filing such an arbitration case refrain from doing so until this process is concluded.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 8
- Oppose 12
- Neutral 1
Details archived per above.
13. Repeat attempts at CDA
Current wording: none.
Proposed wording: This process may not be restarted against an admin who fails to be de-sysoped by the community for a period of three months. However, Arbcom may recommend a new process within 3 months of a failed de-adminship.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 6
- Oppose 11
- Neutral 2
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 21:02, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
14. Allow Bureaucrats to directly desysop
Proposals to allow 'crats to desysop users through Special:UserRights have been rejected in the past due to lack of a community desysoping process. If we go forward with this I think that including a request from the community to the devs to allow this would make a lot more sense. If the 'crat is making the decision there isn't really any reason not to allow them to implement it. ⇌ Jake Wartenberg 20:52, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Result of discussion at date/time of this edit:
- Support 1
- Oppose 2
- Neutral 4
Details archived per above. AndrewRT(Talk) 22:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
15A Violation of rules
Violation of rules result in desysop if admin is stubborn and refuses to admit breaking the rule and does it multiple times Proposal: If an administrator violates a rule, they will be desysoped ONLY if they don't have a reasonable excuse that has widespread support and violates a rule in a way that doesn't actually concretely improves Wikipedia (if they do, they can invoke the IAR (ignore all rules). Such clear rule may eliminate the contentious desysop process. There will be some leniency, such as breaking a rule AND refusal to correct the mistake when notified is permitted a maximum of once every calender year.
Result at time of this edit.
- Support 0
- Oppose 5
- Neutral 0
Details archived per the above. Ben MacDui 20:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
15. Spell out expectations about canvassing
15.1 Add the following sentence: "Parties to the CDA process may legitimately contact other editors to provide input, but must at all times do so in strict accordance with WP:CANVASS."
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 6
- Oppose 4
- Neutral 2
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 20:51, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
16. Improve language
- Improve the language about when to use or not to use the process
16.1 In light of discussion that keeps coming up here about concerns that the process can be "gamed", I suggest expanding some passages in the current draft proposal, by adding some text that was well-received in this proposal written by Beeblebrox. The existing text is in regular font, and the suggested additions are in green.
- Under "What this process is not":
- Dispute resolution or other discussions: Dispute resolution should proceed through the normal channels. Disputes with an administrator should be discussed first with that administrator, and then via the normal channels of third opinion, mediation, request for comment, and arbitration. Mild or one-time only incivility should instead be reported to Wikiquette Alerts. If the administrator is listed at Administrators open to recall and you believe the conditions listed there have been met, they should be reported there.
- Under "Before nomination":
- Consider that nominations that do not address the core issue of whether the community as a whole does or does not trust the account to have the sysop right will likely fail, and possibly backfire spectacularly. Determining that is the purpose of this process. If this is not the issue in your case then you are in the wrong place. In all but the most extreme cases, there should be a demonstrable pattern of repeated unacceptable behaviors, not just a single incident. Processes like this one usually result in intense scrutiny of all involved parties. The bright light you are about to shine on a particular administrator will reflect on you as well.
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 11
- Oppose 0
- Neutral 1
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 21:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
16.1.5 Prior discussion
- Tighten wording regarding prior discussion with administrator
I regard the following as a friendly amendment to the above:
- "Disputes with an administrator
shouldmust be discussed first with that administrator, and then via the normal channelsofsuch as third opinion, mediation, request for comment, and arbitration." --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 7
- Oppose 0
- Neutral 2
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 21:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
16.1.6 Multiple resubmissions
- Tighten wording regarding multiple resubmissions
I would like to see wording at the end of the notice along the lines of:
- Repeated resubmissions of failed RfDA's may result in measures taken to protect the project from repeated frivolous submissions that may include, but are not limited to, suspension of editing privileges.
Wording, of course, is open to suggestion. -- Avi (talk) 06:55, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Result at date/time of this edit:
- Support 5
- Oppose 0
- Neutral 1
Details archived per above. Ben MacDui 21:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
"Late Comments"
This section has been created to enable those wishing to have input into the process to be able to do so until the revised 18th January closure date as originally outlined above. Further comments on detailed issues were requested for a period of seven days on 15th January - see below.
- I notice there is no talk about what effect there may be if a CdA is successful on a new RfA. Presumably if a CdA was successful an RfA would fail but should there be any language on the possibility of an immediate RfA or will it be implicitly understood an RfA can act as an appeal process?
- The number of those voting for the 70% threshold who are admins should be noted. I get the feeling many of the tightened restrictions were inputs from admins. Should even these levels be criticized in later discussion it would be useful to note that the concerns of admins were incorporated into the proposal. Lambanog (talk) 10:32, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think the language of the proposal does say that a new RfA is an appropriate recourse for someone removed by a CDA. I think that's good: if the person has turned things around, the community can so determine, but if not, the community will determine that. I don't think we should add any waiting time before an RfA can be attempted, because the system will be self-correcting in that regard. About the second point, yes, it's good to point that out, in terms of assuring the community and partly answering the critics. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Forward!
This is a well-designed proposal that shows high levels of community support. Moving forward to approval and implementation should be undertaken forthwith. — James Kalmar 22:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
January Poll
Below are active discussions.
Proposed non-binding poll on whether to establish a sub-committee for drafting an FAQ
Extended content
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I see that the excessive bureaucracy on this page continues. If you have something to propose, do it. You don't need to fill in every detail because we have no idea yet whether the broader community supports the general principles, or not. It is silly to waste time debating the fine details when the main idea is untested. Jehochman Brrr 13:41, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
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Motion to extend the closure deadline to 15th January
Archived here.
Finalisation poll and two-phase polling at RrC (pre finalisation-poll discussion)
This discussions, Does 5.4 mean we need 'two-phase' polling at the final RFC? and Proposing 'final phase' of this draft RFC.
Does 5.4 mean we need 'two-phase' polling at the final RFC?
What do people think about the final RFC being a two-phase poll? For me this is the only fair way to present the various support for 5.4. People were expressing different things in 5.4 - not necessarily voting for the final route. As I understood it, idea of 'consensus' (above strict percentages) was central to it.
Phase One could be:
Vote 1) Consensus-based decision made by bureaucrats, with a 70% baseline
Vote 2) Consensus-based decision made by bureaucrats, with a 60% baseline
Vote 3) Consensus-based decision made by bureaucrats, with no baseline specified (or changing 80% to 90% perhaps - Bureaucrats would find it hard to turn down 80% given the 'rule of thumb', and it could concivably be too low for some admins comfort. - added Matt Lewis (talk) 00:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC) ).
Vote 4) General Oppose
Voters can 'support' as many of the four as they like (including 'General Oppose' if they want to), so we needn't have opposes for each choice, as everything is covered (including those who wish to oppose all, but want a contingency vote too). We then toll them up. A dead heat would require a round of Talk-page 'second option?' requests. Alternatively, we could request leaving optional second preferences at Phase One, (though people could complain of over-complicating).
If the opposes 'have it', the whole CDA proposal ends there. Otherwise we (We then) proceed to Phase Two, and poll the most supported option using For and Against. A number of people (like myself) would actually vote 'For' for any of the above versions of CDA (although I have my personal preferences) - others would not. The key is that we have honed it down to the most favoured options: people need a chance to specify what the final poll is, before supporting what may not be their exact preference. The opposers have a chance to 'vote out' the CDA at each phase, which is fair I think. (struck all Oppose vote detail, as an oppose vote in Phase One could prejudice the other votes)
Given the voting data we have from 5.4 (and other of the various polls too), I think it is right that we make the final public RFC as foolproof as we can. CDA is no small change to Wikipedia, and it demands a reasonably comprehensive poll, which would make the whole RFC less vulnerable to criticism too (and it will certainly be ciriticed however it is done).
Any support for this? Matt Lewis (talk) 14:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- No, I disagree with you on this Matt, and I'm one who argued for more range for the 'crats on the lower end. My current take, given where we are now in the process, is that it will be best if we stick to the rough 70-80% range for 'crat discretion, just as in a Rfa, for simplicity. At this stage, less is more. Again, let's keep this as much as possible an easy-to-understand reverse Rfa, and stay focused on that for the Rfc period. Thanks. Jusdafax 16:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- But who has said we must follow the original text of 5.4? The support for it wasn't that clear. If we do, aren't you worred that 1) The final RFA can be far too-easily criticised, and 2) It could easily fail? What will happen then, other than it being deemed as proof that the 'community' does not want CDA? I cannot be sure at all that 70/80 is what people want - so am very uneasy about proposing it without some kind of process to find out what form of 'consensus' people prefer. Basically, we are not quite at the end of the refining process. Like some other late-comers, I don't want to be rushed on this.
- Also - if people really stop and think about the 'reverse RfA' idea, they will see how illogical it is. RfA is an optimistic thing, CDA a very negative one. Editors aren't that daft, and I think it is laying up something that can be easily broken down. It's just not wise wise to focus on it, and simplicity needs to be achieved in the presentation I think. Matt Lewis (talk) 17:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- "Any support for this?" Not from me. I agree with Jusda. Let me clarify about the reverse RfA concept. The idea is that if the community can give the sysop bit, then the community should be able to take it away. Here, that manifests as there needing to be a clear sentiment of the community as a whole supporting a motion to desysop, not just the sentiment of a small and unrepresentative group of editors. I think everyone actually agrees that CSD should work in that way, in principle. Where we disagree is as to how to define community consensus operationally for this proposed process: is it "consensus" as determined by bureaucrats, or is it "consensus" determined by bureaucrats using a non-binding <70% and >80% guideline, as, merely, a non-binding guideline. That has already been discussed by editors, and the consensus was for the latter. Matt has explained his concerns, and appears not to be persuading the rest of us, so that consensus appears to stand. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks Trypto. Matt, a number of us have been commenting and !voting on this process/proposal, originally drafted and presented by admin Uncle G, for some time, and I believe we have reached the point of diminishing returns on it. 70/80 is easy to understand, and makes the bar to desysop just as high as it is to hand over the mop. There is logic in that. As I see it, lowering the bar from 70/80 gives more ammo to the critics who want the concept of CDA shot down. I understand as a late-comer you'd like more time, but there will always be late-comers, and my own deep concern is that we are past the point of reasonable ongoing discussion, and starting to dither. I urge we finish up asap, set a date and just do the danged RfC asap. If it fails, it fails. Jusdafax 17:54, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- Jusdafax - my proposal above is not about "changing to 60/80" though is it?! It is about using a fair two-phase poll to find out what people really want from 5.4. Wikipedia needs a 'parallel' admin-removal system yes, but there is no other "logic" in comparing 'handing over the mop' to taking it away. A parallel system would be to make an equally fair one - which does not mean simply copy the margin percentages. RFA is intrinsically optimistic - CDA is to stop-dead further offences being made! The consequences of 'failure' with CDA is very serious - as we can get a bad admin re-affirmed, and other admin/editors can resign etc in disgust. It has to be based on serious decision making. With RfA 'failure' is simply to discourage a potentially good admin, rather than have them try for adminship again - which we know they most-commonly do, as it is hard to pass it first time. They are just not comparable in terms of consensus margins.
- I think the comment "If it fails, it fails" says everything, and I really don't share that attitude at all. In fact, I am getting very unhappy with the rush here guys - I feel like people's hopes have been raised unfairly, and I'm personally starting to wonder if I'm not wasting my time a bit. Where is everyone? Is the CDA seen as destined to fail now? I tell you something if it is - it won't make people like myself feel any better about Wikipedia. But then, of course - who gives a shit if we are happy or not? No-one is obliged to care about worker happiness, so no-one really does. A decent CDA can actually change that - a weak CDA could be useless at best, and the illusion of fairness at worse.
- Another thing I haven't said about 70/80 - I think that in some cases people will simply not feel comfortable (and secure) enough about starting an CDA, if they feel it has to get 70% to be actually debated by the Bureaucrats. Peole will be much happier with there being a guaranteed informed 'consensus-based' decision on all CDAs that get through, with an wisely liberal margin (ie 60% - or even better - none at all). After all - there are plenty of safeguards to even getting a CDA on a bad admin going! If it passes them, it HAS to be taken seriously. Or else who will risk opening a CDA in difficult cases? Lets be honest - the completely obvious cases of admin 'gone bad' will be dealt with by admin anyway. CDA is for the more complicated less-obviously-apparent matters, which have enough public support. Ultimately, this is not so much about removing bad apples - it is really about how well/badly editors 'feel' about admin's accountability in everyday Wikipedia life. It is vital for Wikipedia that its editors feel that Administrators are at least 'potentially' removable, and not over-safeguarded with a practical 'job for life'.
- All I'm asking is that we poll in two phases, to make sure we are voting on what people want. If 70/80 gets to be the final vote, so be it! We could really be messing it up at this stage guys - does anyone out there support me? To not poll intelligently/fairly, and to steamroller 70/80 through, I feel certain is risking too much. This could depend on whether you really want CDA to succeed or not. Matt Lewis (talk) 19:10, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I also think the 'community present' is intrusting us here to properly represent them, and create a final CDA proposal that not just represents them, but has a real chance of 1) being taken seriously, 2) getting through. Matt Lewis (talk) 19:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- This is a good time for everyone to take a deep breath. The situation is not as dire as that. I think the "if it fails it fails" comment was said in haste, and no one intends this to fail. If other people speak up for an extra poll, then good. If not, then I hope Matt will accept that. Myself, I think we've already polled a lot, and we should respect what editors already said (which is what I'm trying to do, since I'm advocating something I originally tried to argue against, but which I've been persuaded to now support). Please let me suggest, instead, that editors simply comment here on how best to construct the "5.4" part of the proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I also think the 'community present' is intrusting us here to properly represent them, and create a final CDA proposal that not just represents them, but has a real chance of 1) being taken seriously, 2) getting through. Matt Lewis (talk) 19:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
It's no surprise that this issue clearly lies at the heart of the whole problem. Looking at the detailed discussion again, there are quite possibly as many who supported 5.4 who'd like 60% as there are who would support 70% (or higher). The difficulty is compounded by the regularly expressed view that being too specific with numbers is bad juju. I think the solution is to ensure the issue is spelled out clearly and ask two (and ONLY two) questions, in the reverse order suggested above. Something like:
Vote 1) General Support or Oppose
Vote 2) If enacted, 60% baseline or 70% baseline
That way round, if people give up half way through you can reasonably assume they don't care about the %age. Whether we like it or not I think 70% has to be the default setting however. Ben MacDui 19:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm uncomfortable with that. I see what you are saying about the archived comments on 5.4, but I'm also sensitive to the archived comments on 5.3 (>50% threshold). If there was such resistance to >50%, are we really so sure it gets better at 60%? I think not. I also think there is a problem with presenting a proposal with that "vote 2" as part of it: the opposers are certain to say "look, this proposal isn't even finished, the people proposing it haven't thought it out, it should just be defeated". We all know they'll say that. Let's get this right before we put anything to a final vote. So, how many editors here really feel that we need to re-poll on this question at all? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:55, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I don't actually think the resistance to 50% here will be necessarily mirrored in a public poll - and we are actually polling on 60/80, which has had support without the loud dissent. I also think we are far, far more likely to be accused of unfairly fixing onto a single route (ie the half-popular 70/80), than to be chastised for giving people actual options to vote on. We need to repoll this question as we simply don't have an answer to it yet. It's not up to us to just pick one. This is supposed to be about Bureaucrats finding consensus - we need to give them a decent margin to do it in. I'm sure they would find it a thankless task if they had to start at 70%, and would rather resist CDA altogether with that margin percent. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I agree it is better to be clear, but what I hear Matt saying is that it isn't clear, and I can't abide the thought of another round of debate. Here is a suggested wording for the "Comments" Section per the project page here. I am not wedded to this, just trying to move the debate along. Ben MacDui 20:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- We may be at the point where it would be more productive to see what other editors say, instead of the 3 or 4 of us debating it. (Honestly, at this point, I think it is only one editor who is unhappy about the issue, but I'm prepared to be proven wrong if other comments appear.) My preference would be to have another pre-poll first, but finally to have a simple up or down !vote on a single finished proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- There is not only the one editor who is unhappy about this issue - that is guaranteed! We'll certainly have to poll again for sure, and more voices are essential. I still can't see why the public can't be intrusted with non-simplistic matters, but we could refine further in here. Also, if we get another round of debate - so be it, surely? I do appreciate what you've all been through (none of you would believe what I've been through myself trying to improve Wikipedia), but are you all sure your attitudes aren't failing you at the very last? Matt Lewis (talk) 23:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- We may be at the point where it would be more productive to see what other editors say, instead of the 3 or 4 of us debating it. (Honestly, at this point, I think it is only one editor who is unhappy about the issue, but I'm prepared to be proven wrong if other comments appear.) My preference would be to have another pre-poll first, but finally to have a simple up or down !vote on a single finished proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I agree it is better to be clear, but what I hear Matt saying is that it isn't clear, and I can't abide the thought of another round of debate. Here is a suggested wording for the "Comments" Section per the project page here. I am not wedded to this, just trying to move the debate along. Ben MacDui 20:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
On the Vote 1, Vote 2 suggestion by MacDui (a little above) - I think whether people oppose CDA or not can depend on whether the baseline is 60 or 70%, and the outcome of vote 2 can effect vote 1. I think the only foolproof way is a two-phase poll of some kind. One phase polls can get very complicated when they are done fairly in matters like this. This RFA proposal of CDA the most important part - what everything has been leading up to, and I can't help feeling people are just desperate to get it over with!
POLL QUESTION: Perhaps we can run my two-phase poll above, but poll Phase 1 in here? (asking for second options, and without letting the Oppose votes end everything) - what do people think? We then take phase 2 (the baseline to be voted for/against) to the RFC - ie allow people to vote For/Against a CDA with a set baseline, and in doing so offer the community complete CDA proposal. How about that? We could advertise this final talk page poll the way the Motion to Close one was. Looking at the 'big names' in that should remind us all what we are up against. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well, as I said before, if we do decide to do more polling, I would hope we do the polling on the percent etc issue here as a first step, and then use the results from that to formulate an RfC with that question already agreed upon. I, for one, am not "desperate" for anything. My advice would be to see if more editors besides Matt come here (sans canvassing of course) over the next few days, and ask for more polling on this point. If they do, then let's do it. In the mean time, I suggest, again, that all take a deep breath, and focus for the moment on fixing up what we do agree upon. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:54, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I am opposed to any further polling. There is no reason to suppose any more people would turn up than did so in the last round and (insofar as most editors care either way) I think it will be seen as putting off answering a fairly straightforward question. Re "I think whether people oppose CDA or not can depend on whether the baseline is 60 or 70%, and the outcome of vote 2 can effect vote 1." Interesting - I'd like to explore the interactions here.
Assuming everyone answers both questions:
- if I am opposed to the principle I'm likely to !vote oppose/70%
- if I am supportive of the principle I'm likely to !vote support/60%
- there will be those who genuinely prefer support/70% - hard to know how many
- if I am tending towards a conservative view of the %age (i.e. higher number) and see lots of support/60% I might well oppose.
- if I am tending towards a radical view of the %age (i.e. lower number) and see lots of support/70% I might well oppose.
It is very hard to predict - which may be an advantage as it is hard for any us here to game it, consciously or otherwise. I do see an advantage of the two question approach is that it reduces the numbers in the fourth group from the outset and if that increases the numbers in the third group, surely that is an honest outcome.
An intriguing puzzle. Ben MacDui 17:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- And a difficult puzzle (at least for me)! It's taken me a lot of thought to wrap my mind around it, but I think I understand it now. My take is that you actually point out a potential problem we could run into. If we go with two questions, people may look at the 60/70 question results-to-date, and try to game their overall support/opposition depending on which way it's going. The two-question approach just begs for unintended (bad) consequences. I really want to push now for a simple, single-question RfC. Something that has occurred to me over the last day or two is that the 60% version raises a question that could be difficult to answer: why is the number 10% lower for CDA than for RfA? Even though I started out as a fan of a much lower threshold, I definitely see now (based very much on what editors have said in the polling we've already done) a very attractive argument that the language about percents in CDA is the same as the language in RfA. Unless more editors comment here in the next couple of days that they want 60%, I would really advocate going with single-question 70%, and without needing another poll first. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- CDA has nothing to do with WP:RFA! PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT! It is vitally important. CDA is not a de-election, and it is a real con to suggest that it is. CDA is for the community to advance the removal of a clearly destructive admin! A 70% baseline couldn't be more different for each one. Also, basic logic shows that you need at least two phases to poll three questions (60/70/oppose?). Sorry guys - but that should be obvious to both of you, but you are trying to fit square pegs in round holes in all manner of ways to end all this. The rushed attitude in here is really awful to me - sorry if that sounds rude, but it's genuinely from the heart. We MUST poll on this matter - we CANNOT just 'run' with one. We can do the first polling phase here, and the next (ie the answer) to the public at the RFC, or we can poll both phases to the public at the RFC. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- Then poll. Don't do an RfC that is badly designed, designed to fail. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'll prepare it now, and poll it tommorrow. I agree that a simpler RFC is better in terms of encouraging votes. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- Please be sure to check with MacDui. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- Don't understand how "(60/70/oppose?)" is 3 questions.
- I'm also not sure where the "rushed attitude" issue comes in. I've said that I am not in favour of another separate poll and whilst I believe we need to launch the RfC by the end of this month, we have already extended the draft discussion and no date has yet been set. Part of my concern is that in another "poll" there is no reason to suppose someone won't propose 40%, 90% and/or 67.45% and it is unlikely the same group of people would participate in three different discussions on the same subject, making it increasingly hard to bring coherence to the process. Ben MacDui 17:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- Please be sure to check with MacDui. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'll prepare it now, and poll it tommorrow. I agree that a simpler RFC is better in terms of encouraging votes. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- Then poll. Don't do an RfC that is badly designed, designed to fail. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- CDA has nothing to do with WP:RFA! PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT! It is vitally important. CDA is not a de-election, and it is a real con to suggest that it is. CDA is for the community to advance the removal of a clearly destructive admin! A 70% baseline couldn't be more different for each one. Also, basic logic shows that you need at least two phases to poll three questions (60/70/oppose?). Sorry guys - but that should be obvious to both of you, but you are trying to fit square pegs in round holes in all manner of ways to end all this. The rushed attitude in here is really awful to me - sorry if that sounds rude, but it's genuinely from the heart. We MUST poll on this matter - we CANNOT just 'run' with one. We can do the first polling phase here, and the next (ie the answer) to the public at the RFC, or we can poll both phases to the public at the RFC. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Proposing 'final phase' of this draft RFC
- "70%", "60%" and "Oppose CDA" don't strictly have to be "three questions", but you certainly have to poll them in two phases. The matter is just too complicated to poll them in a single phase. Asking "60% or 70%?" would mean the Oppose? vote could (and surely would) prejudice the percentage votes, eg. people could vote (or change their existing vote) to 70% if the Opposes get 'dangerously' high. Right now I'm inclined to think that opposing CDA could actually be better than settling for 70% (as it is so high it poses all kinds of problems) - but I might have gone the 'switching allegiance' way myself, had I rather seen a 70% baseline than vote 60% and see CDA completely fail. If the eventual public poll in is two phases of course, we may as well do it properly and poll "60 or 70%?" in 'phase one', and then poll the winner in 'phase two' as a For and Oppose. (It was a mistake of my own to put an unnecessary extra 'oppose' vote in my Phase One, as of course it causes the problems I've detailed above). We need to ensure that the poll simply allows people to vote for what they want without prejudice - or it will be ripped into, and rightly so. The alternative for us is to poll a 'phase one' poll in here asap (without the 'oppose' option of course), which will provide us with a single percentage to poll to the public.
- This has to be over when it's over. If we are curtailing things in any way at this point, whether or not we have set the pending RFC date yet is simply irrelevant.
- There is a possibility that the results will be split, so I suggest polling a realistic range for people to chose from (50%, 60%, 66%, 70% and 75% for balance), and asking for first (and) second
and thirdpreferences (if people have them), to take into account if the winning percentage is too close to second-place for comfort.
- Personally, I rather we didn't have the 80% figure (essentially an 'auto-desysop', as Bureacrats I think would find it hard to support an admin who failed this "rule of thumb"). The CDA proposal we are working on (5.4) is principally about Bureaucrats finding consensus, in my eyes at least. Adminship is hardly a paid job after all (no comments please), and 80% would certainly mean the 'community trust' is gone, whether that is truly fair or not. But adminship is a fiercely-protected thing of course, and even 80% could be an issue to some alas. It could be wise to add to the poll "change the auto-desysop percentage from 80% to 90% (yes/no)?" (90% being more of a token percentage perhaps, but one that could allay fears) – I am suggesting adding that here. For me, an eventuality like 60-90% does seem like a more reasonable 'consensus-finding range' for Bureaucrats to 'fish out' the mistakes and unfair prejudices from, should they need to.
- I originally started this section at the bottom of the page to grab attention. Are people going to see it moved up here? I do feel there has been something of a 'dimmed light' and a near-closed door (if not an entirely locked one) since 4th Jan. I think I've discussed things very reasonably, but it's now time for some real light to be cast on this matter again, in the time-honoured way of getting some decisive input...
- CDA 'Finalisation Poll'
- (proposal for polling asap)
- The CDA proposal which had the most support was 5.4 (essentially, that Bureaucrats look for consensus within a 70% to 80% "rule of thumb" margin). Amongst those who support proposing a CDA proposal to the community, there is a consensus is that we utilise 5.4. (The finalised CDA will be proposed at an eventual RfC). However, the full support for 5.4 is not clear, especially on using 70% as the 'baseline' percentage. Percentage issues were posed by people who supported and opposed the principle of 5.4, and the most-suggested ammendment (which came from the those in support of it) was to change the baseline to 60%. Also, since Jan 4th, it has been suggested that another 'phase' is needed at this 'Draft RfC' stage, to gather more information from people, and to facilitate the finalisation of the proposal.
- This poll (which hopefully will constitute the final phase) is intended to complete the CDA proposal. This poll will run for 7 days, after which the proposal will be finalised, and put to the community at RfC.
- Please note, this is not the place to oppose the idea of CDA - that can be done at the final RfC. Please leave comments in the "Comments" section below, and not in the poll itself.
- Vote 1:
- Do you prefer a 'baseline' percentage of; 50%, 60%, 66%, 70% or 75%?
- As a "rule of thumb", the Bureaucrats will need to see this 'baseline' percentage reached before they consider whether the Administrator standing under CDA should be de-sysoped.
- Please give a single-value second preference if you can, in the format; "75 (70) - signed", or "66 (60 or 50) - signed" etc.
- * 50 (60) – ConcernedEditor*
- * 60 (50 or 66) - LiberalWikipedian*
- * 75 – ConcernedAdmin*
- Vote 2:
- Do you prefer a 'desysop threshold' of 80% or 90%?
- As a "rule of thumb", the Bureaucrats will automatically de-sysop the Administrator standing under CDA if the percentage reaches this 'threshold'.
- * 80 – ConcernedEditor*
- * 90 - LiberalWikipedian*
- * 90 – ConcernedAdmin*
- (* these are examples of how it could pan out, not intended as examples to provide in the actual poll)
- What do you think? Please bear in mind that I feel so strongly that a poll is needed, that I will be making one of some kind or other. If people are to be aroused from their slumbers, it may as well be a decent and enlightening one. If this is to be the last opportunity before the final jump, we need to get it right. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Looks like I missed my promised "tomorrow" by 10 minutes (and the time to discuss it) - sorry! Matt Lewis (talk) 00:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- About doing it or not, I am kind of neutral, but do not have any objection. But I do feel strongly that no decision should be made without first hearing back from MacDui. If we do it, I'd like to suggest the following polishes to the wording of the poll questions. First, we need to be sure to provide a link to the archived discussion of the options that have already been discussed, for people to read if they are unfamiliar with it. Then, I think "baseline percentage" is confusing to people who haven't followed all the intricacies of this debate. I also think giving the option of non-factor-of-10 numbers makes things more complicated than they need to be. And I think we can assume that there will be a 10-point spread between the lower and the higher number. So, I would go with a single question. I would list the following choices:
- 50%-60%
- 60%-70%
- 70%-80%
- 80%-90%
- and for each, let people indicate "first choice", "second choice", "third choice", or "fourth choice", with brief comments if they wish. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for replying. I'm shattered right now so I'll address this tomorrow, other than to say you and MacDui can polish things as much as you like. MacDui seems to be neutral like yourself, but I won't go ahead until he comments for sure (obviously things are best if we are all in tune - consensus at this minute is a small crowd indeed!). Re 66% I used it as it is a two-thirds margin, and I imagined some awkward blighter demanding it! Who knows, it may even be the one to get through. The 'balancing' 75 is three quarters, and I couldn't use 80 obviously. Can't think what you mean by making them ranges at the moment. The choice thing I didn't think of - I'll have to think about that tomo. Matt Lewis (talk)
- And thank you for working on it. Yeah, I think we both should get some sleep! I think MacDui said he has strong reservations, so do let's wait for him. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for replying. I'm shattered right now so I'll address this tomorrow, other than to say you and MacDui can polish things as much as you like. MacDui seems to be neutral like yourself, but I won't go ahead until he comments for sure (obviously things are best if we are all in tune - consensus at this minute is a small crowd indeed!). Re 66% I used it as it is a two-thirds margin, and I imagined some awkward blighter demanding it! Who knows, it may even be the one to get through. The 'balancing' 75 is three quarters, and I couldn't use 80 obviously. Can't think what you mean by making them ranges at the moment. The choice thing I didn't think of - I'll have to think about that tomo. Matt Lewis (talk)
- About doing it or not, I am kind of neutral, but do not have any objection. But I do feel strongly that no decision should be made without first hearing back from MacDui. If we do it, I'd like to suggest the following polishes to the wording of the poll questions. First, we need to be sure to provide a link to the archived discussion of the options that have already been discussed, for people to read if they are unfamiliar with it. Then, I think "baseline percentage" is confusing to people who haven't followed all the intricacies of this debate. I also think giving the option of non-factor-of-10 numbers makes things more complicated than they need to be. And I think we can assume that there will be a 10-point spread between the lower and the higher number. So, I would go with a single question. I would list the following choices:
I've made some revisions, mainly cursory. Hopefully it is close to something we can poll soon. I suggest informing all previously-interested parties in the way the Motion to Close was. I actually didn't get that notice (I came in too late and found all this by chance), so obviously we need to maximise all the allowable routes. As this isn't a FOR/AGAINST poll as such, and as the CDA in itself is now (essentially) one single proposal that can be either voted 'in' or 'out' at the RfC, I cannot personally see how WP:CANVAS laws can come into play now. Everyone should know about this in my opinion. I'd even put the final RfC in the watchlist 'notice space' if I could. I think there should be a specific place on Wikipedia just for major public votes (ie not RfC - which is clearly both over-used and underplayed), and polls in that new place should be able to make use of the top-page noticespace. Matt Lewis (talk) 13:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Those following this page closely know my feelings; I will make it clear again for anyone else. The percentage to de-admin should be the same as it takes to make an admin... that roughly between 70 and 80 percent is at bureaucrat discretion, below 65 is no consensus (but could be taken up by ArbCom) and over 80% !vote to de-admin is clearly take-the-mop time. Keep it simple, please. My view: Matt is well-meaning but is needlessly complicating this. Time to start the RfC should be in the next 1-2 weeks max. Let's go, please. Jusdafax 17:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- If you like 65% then vote for 66%! We can't keep it simple, because people aren't 'stupid'. Sorry - I just cannot see how CDA is comparable to RfA at all - they both do completely different things, and CDA is nothing like a reverse process of RfA. I've written more on that to your comment on it below. I'm doing this for 4 reasons: 1) 70% was not a clear consensus, 2) that would make the final poll easily ciritcised, 3) I don't personally think 70% will win, 4) I do think that 70% could be gamable, lead to a false sense of accountability, and thus damage WIkiedia. This can be polled today, and the RfC can still be in 2 weeks max.Matt Lewis (talk) 18:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Matt, I appreciate that you really mean well, but I have to say a few things here. First, I don't think you really took in what I suggested about re-wording the poll, assuming we do a poll at all; it's more like you are just re-tweaking your own wording. More importantly, I agree with something Jehochman says on this page: that we need to be careful about not just talking amongst a few of ourselves in an echo-chamber. I've been trying to keep an open mind and a neutral stance about whether or not to poll. But, reading all of the comments that have been coming in to this talk, I really do not see anyone besides Matt advocating the poll, and quite a few people advocating against it. Speaking as someone who has been relatively receptive to polling, I have to say that when I read consensus here, the consensus is to go forward with 70-80, and ask the community to respond to that. As Jusdafax just said, keep it simple. At this point, I do not see a compelling reason to poll, and I think continuing to push for a poll may be unhelpful, however well-meaning it is. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't see any suggested re-wording, so obviously I tweaked it myself.
- I just don't understand the 'keep it simple' philosophy here - why? The poll isn't complex at all, but it is clearly needed to prove that we have a genuine concensus and are not simply a closed-shop 'echo chamber'. We already have had criticism below that too little collaboration has been seen in here - the only way around that is to cover all the angles. Nobody can complain then. We are simply laying ourselves up for masses of criticism if we don't - and it would be fair criticism too. In the light of Jehochman's comment here, as soon as MacDui responds, I'll be polling something. I've had support off this page for it. For some reason people can't get to grips with this page. But it IS a long and difficul page. Matt Lewis (talk) 19:24, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
There are two issues at hand.
First of all the general principle - if there community support for WP:CDA to be enacted as described above?
Secondly, there is the less clear-cut issue of the way the outcome shall be determined, expressed as a guideline in percentage terms. Four separate ideas were discussed at Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC of which only one received consensus, namely that for an Administrator to be de-sysopped a minimum of 50 editors should take part and that as "a general descriptive rule of thumb" more than 70% in favour of de-sysopping would be required. The wording is deliberately phrased to allow the closing Bureaucrat leeway, just as at an RfA. However, some participants expressed an opinion in favour of this guideline being more than 60% in favour of de-sysopping (an option that was not formally discussed). Choosing between these two options is then the second question to be addressed. (Note that both 30% and 50% were debated and rejected. An option for 80% is, in practical terms, more-or-less opposition to the process as a whole. 70% is the default position and consensus is required to change this.) Ben MacDui 20:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)Proposal: Start the RfC in ten days (Jan. 25, 2010)
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To me the beauty of Community de-adminship, regardless of what the percentage range is to de-sysop, is how complementary it is to ArbCom's duties. A Cda can be implemented if ArbCom can't or won't act on a problem admin. On the other hand, if an admin has crossed the line in obvious or blatant ways, then a Cda could save ArbCom a messy bit of work. And an admin who keeps his mop with 'only' 60% voting to remove it will presumably be on their best behavior due to the resulting scrutiny. I say yet again, I was originally in favor of lowering the 70% bar, but now feel we should keep it as a rough guide and let the 'crats make the final call... just like an Rfa. Whether Matt, or anyone else currently commenting here, would or would not vote for it is beside the point. Jehocman is correct in pointing out, as Trypto notes, that we are down to just a few people chasing our tails here! Yet the recent !vote on the closure motion was two to one against. I take it everyone else awaits the !vote. Let's schedule a vote today, and I propose Monday, Jan. 25 as the start of an RfC re: Community de-adminship, with the next ten days used for publicity and whatever minor tweaks are needed to the final wording. I propose the RfC to last three weeks. Jusdafax 19:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a lot to read here, and it takes a long time, though the bulk of the discussion appears to centre on the same points - what exact percentage of support is needed for consensus, shall we have a poll - and what form will it take, and is a discussion to remove access to some Wiki tools the same as a discussion to allow access to some Wiki tools. I think people are getting too caught up in the exact definition of WP:Consensus, and are looking to reinvent the wheel. Consensus is not a hard line, and it would be inappropriate for people here to pre-decide for every future CDA discussion what the exact line is for consensus. It would be helpful and appropriate to give guidance, but not to give absolutes. The wording I proposed at Wikipedia_talk:Community_de-adminship/Draft_RfC/Archive_1#5._Need_more_concrete_percentages_for_de-sysoping is "Thus, for an Administrator to be de-sysopped, a bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether both a minimum of 50 editors and a general consensus supports de-sysopping. Consensus is sometimes difficult to ascertain and is not a numerical measurement, but as a general descriptive rule of thumb, above ~80% support for de-sysopping would be acceptable; while support below ~70% would not be, and the area between is subject to bureaucratic discretion." We are talking about allowing the closing Crat to decide the consensus, and simply giving the commonly accepted "rule of thumb" range of 70 - 80% as the typical percentage accepted by the community in decisions like this. However a Crat can decide to go beyond that range depending on circumstances. As that wording was broadly accepted in the poll, I don't see the need to alter it to take it outside of the general understanding of WP:Consensus, or outside of the communities' acceptance of what consensus would be in the closest procedure to this one. Remember, nothing is fixed for ever on Wikipedia, and if people in a year's time feel that adjustments need to be made, then a discussion will take place at that time. As we have a consensus on wording which has prior wide consensus through actual usage, then we should accept that and move on. Matt Lewis' views that this CDA process is about protecting Wikipedia from damage is not my understanding of what this process is about. I think that is clearly specified somewhere that it is not about emergency de-sysopping. My understanding, also, is that this is a reverse RfA: it is not about protecting damage to Wikipedia, it is about assessing the community's trust in letting an individual have certain tools which can interfere with harmonious editing if used inappropriately.SilkTork *YES! 10:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
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CDA userboxes update
If anyone's interested, the various CDA userboxes have been adapted to the standard userbox dimensions. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Community de-Adminship 'Proposal Finalization' Poll.
VOTE 1, VOTE 2, VOTE 3 and VOTE 4 in the four vote poll, and various discussion.
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To jump down to the poll, click here. Please make any comments during the poll in the following section (which is directly above the poll). Thanks. Comments
OK, I'm going to add the two ideas above as two more Votes in the above poll. I know people will complain (people always do) but sod it - someone has to find a way of getting information from people, or this this proposal will simply be run at 70%, with too many people critical of the final stages. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC) Wow. More shotgun 'voting' on a series of assorted questions, almost all of which beg the question. The point (or, assuming some good faith, the effect) of a complex, multistage vote should be obvious by now. If this proposal's proponents can get some sort of majority of editors to say 'yes' to some variant of the question "Would you like to possibly have a desysopping process that might be something like what's been discussed here, with some caveats, sort of, in the future?", then we will see more browbeating of critics with but people want this, shut up!. Vote 3 above exemplifies this attitude problem; it's a built-in get-out-of-jail-free card for this proposal's proponents. Even if the community says "No!" in a clear and open vote on the proposal, Vote 3 seeks permission to go back to beating the dead horse. Moreover, by asking the wishy-washy "Is this kind of sort of maybe possibly like something you could say yes to in some way?" question first, you're trying to both channel opinion (see push poll) and to bias any reading of the final, clear "Can we go live with this, yes or no?" question. (If it's close, a yes on the first question might be used to inappropriately argue that a maybe on the second question counts as a yes — and that's a dishonest, bullshit way to fake a consensus.) I think it's rather telling that the only opportunity offered here to offer criticism of this proposal as currently formulated (beyond rearranging the deck chairs by fiddling with numbers a bit) is marked as 'unofficial'. Again, it's a way to discourage anyone who has any questions or concerns from participating in the process, because the supporters just don't want to hear it. We're explicitly told that our contributions are unwanted, and the proposal's proponents wish to maintain the illusion of near-unanimous support for as long as possible. The FAQ is particularly egregious in its minimization of criticisms and evasion of tough questions. If this proposal has the vast, silent support that its proponents keep vociferously claiming, then call it ready when you've finished playing with your polls, grow a pair, and ask a simple yes/no question: "Should this be policy?". If you're genuinely confident, ask the question posed by Jehochman above: "Should desysopping on Wikipedia proceed by the existing process (RFU/U and Arbitration) alone, or should the additional CDA be added?" (I paraphrase). Heck, just ask the important question and be done with it: "Will making this process a Wikipedia policy ultimately improve the encyclopedia?" — the only question that really matters. As long as you're afraid to ask those questions – clearly, openly, honestly, and without caveats, conditions, and loopholes – then you know that you don't really have the community's support. And if you keep jerking us around with polls about polls about surveys about votes about polls, then you're also going to lose (what's left of) the community's trust and respect. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Please, this argument isn't going anywhere. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Query need for poll
Incomplete
RFC Requirement
What does question 3 mean?It looks like people have two different interpretations of what the third question means: some are interpreting it as a suggestion for a two-phase proposal for the community to adopt CDA, and some as a two-phase CDA process itself. Perhaps it's not hugely important since people see fairly opposed to both, but some clarification would still be useful so we know what has actually been decided. Olaf Davis (talk) 11:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
BureaucratsWhat is being done to address the inevitable swathe of votes along these lines:
I set out the issue in my post here; there are genuine concerns about the status of some of the older bureaucrats. Cimon avaro's RfB closed with under 75% support; we have four crats who have never passed an RfB at all (they were the 'original' crats when the role was created in 2004); and while the support percentage has generally remained fairly constant throughout the role's lifetime, seven current crats, including two active in the past 3 months, had less than 20 participants in their RfB. This situation will prompt opposition to any proposal that increases the responsibility of the bureaucrat group. How do you intend to respond to such comments? Happy‑melon 14:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
B-crats should only be given extra powers if they are subject to term limits.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 15:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I am so confusedI can't make head nor tail what this is all about :( I'm confused about the following:
Can someone explain, or give me a quick three sentence (or near to this) answer? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 14:33, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Discussion of Vote 2After seeing the votes and having heard the arguments, I'd prefer an upper limit to the so-called discretionary range of 85%, rather than the two favorites at this point, 80% and 90%. I am basically optimistic that most of the voting in such a process will be good-faith and reasonably informed, but even assuming this, we need to think about how it could all go wrong. Many people will vote against an admin even when that admin is operating, arguably, within the range of acceptable admin behaviors, as a way of pushing back against the current range of acceptable behaviors. That could get us to 50% quickly, and if you then add in all the votes from User:ImaVandal and friends who didn't like getting blocked, it's quite conceivable that one day we'll get a desysopping percentage of 82% for someone who really shouldn't be desysopped. If that happens, and whoever is making the call says that they're desysopping anyway because 82% is above the discretionary range, then it would have been better if there were no such desysopping process in place, because that's going to have a very unfortunate chilling effect on admins. OTOH, it's also easy to see how not desysopping at 88% could be a disaster; it could give the impression that this process is just security theater, the illusion of a process that engages the community without any real responsiveness to community input. My hope is that both sides of this argument can be prodded to offer some grudging acknowledgment of the potential downsides in both directions, and we can arrive at a "least worst" compromise. - Dank (push to talk) 16:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Further conversation(comments moved here from under the poll)
Railroaded
No thanks
New idea
When?I sorta lost the proposed 'time-frame' of all of this. If the CDA is presented to the entire Wiki community, on what date shall it be? GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Community de-Adminship 'Proposal Finalization' Poll
The intention of this four-vote 'multi-poll' is to complete the working CDA proposal. This poll will run for 7 days, after which the intention is that the proposal will be finalised, and put to the community at RfC. A date is still to be set for this, however, and nothing is set in sand: we do not know how this poll will develop. Votes 1 and 2 are important for the finalising of the CDA proposal. Vote 3 asks if you would like a two-phase proposal (with the CDA being polled in phase 2). Vote 4 is an unofficial oppose. Please note that this poll is not the place to officially oppose the idea of CDA - that can be done at the final RfC. Background and reasons for polling In previous polling, the CDA proposal that had the most support was 5.4 (essentially, that Bureaucrats look for consensus within a 70% to 80% "rule of thumb" margin). Amongst those who support proposing a CDA proposal to the community, there is a consensus is that we utilise 5.4. (The finalised CDA will be proposed at an eventual RfC). However, the full support for 5.4 is not clear, especially on using 70% as the 'baseline' percentage. Percentage issues were posed by people who supported and opposed the principle of 5.4, and the most-suggested amendment (which came from the those in support of it) was to change the baseline to 60%. Also, since January 4, it has been suggested that another 'phase' is needed at this 'Draft RfC' stage, to gather more information from people, and to facilitate the finalisation of the proposal. This poll will perhaps constitute the final phase. THIS POLL OFFICIALLY STARTED AT 23:00, 15 JANUARY 2010 (UTC) and WILL END AT NOON GMT ON SUNDAY 24th JANUARY 2010.
VOTE 1Do you prefer a 'baseline' percentage of; 50%, 60%, 66%, 70% or 75%? As a "rule of thumb", the Bureaucrats will need to see this 'baseline' percentage in favor of desysoping reached before they consider whether the Administrator standing under CDA should be de-sysoped. Please give a single-value second preference if you can, in the format; "75 (70) - signed", or "66 (60 and 50) - signed" etc.
VOTE 2Do you prefer a 'desysop threshold' of 80% or 90%, or having none at all? As a "rule of thumb", the Bureaucrats will automatically de-sysop the Administrator standing under CDA if the percentage reaches this 'threshold'. Currently it is 80% (per proposal 5.4). Please vote "80" or "90", or "None", giving a second preference if you have one.
VOTE 3Would you support a two-phase poll at RfC? The first phase would ask a question on whether the CDA is wanted or not. This could be phrased in a number of ways and, should the support here show there is sufficient desire for it, would be decided on after this poll. The second phase (if the RfC doesn't stop at phase one) would be the decided-upon CDA proposal. Please vote "Support", "Oppose" or "Neutral". IMPORTANT ADDENDUM: This question is just about having a two-phase CDA poll at RfC - please ammend any comments that assumed this question was about creating an actual two-phase CDA process.
VOTE 4Oppose CDA (unoffical) If you wish to voice your opinion here by voting "Oppose" to CDA in general, you may do so, but it will not be binding. A Motion to Close was recently polled, and it failed 2:1. The opportunity to oppose properly will be at the final RfC. Please vote "Oppose" only if you genuinely oppose CDA (for whatever reason).
Comment. I don't ordinarily take the time to make general comments on Wikipolitics but as I greatly respect several of the editors who have opposed the principle of CDA above, I wanted to take the time to lay out why I strongly feel that it is needed. The conferral of adminship through RfA is based on trust. Users who have demonstrated through their edits that they are trusted members of the community receive the bit and those who haven't, either because their edits show that they don't merit it or are insufficient to show that they do, don't. RfA is, of course, not perfect, but that is how it is supposed to work. There is currently no effective way to desysop an admin who has lost community trust but has not engaged in a pattern of clear abuse. ArbCom does a good job at identifying and removing truly abusive admins, but is in a very poor position to determine the level of community trust that a user has and rarely seeks to. The resysop of GlassCobra is a clear and recent example of this problem. ArbCom resysopped after they became convinced by assurances that he/she would not engage in similar deception again. They neither asked nor determined whether GlassCobra had regained the community's trust (nor for that matter did they determine that she/he had lost it initially). I trust ArbCom, but admins must be trusted (now) by the community and that can only be assured by subjecting them to de-adminship when a consensus that that trust has been lost is demonstrated by a process similar that that outlined by the proposal under consideration here. Eluchil404 (talk) 08:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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ACTIVE DISCUSSION
Poll Results
It would be very helpful if someone could check the following arithmetic re Votes 1&2, and state that they have done so here.
Initial analysis:
Vote 1
The mean for the first preference is 62.38%. For the second preference it is 62.45%. I have not analysed the modal answer, as I am not sure how this could be interpreted given the range of options. At a glance I'd say it is either 60 or 70.
Vote 2
25 in favour of 90, 28 in favour of 80 and 19 in favour of "none", which last result could reasonably be interpreted as meaning "consensus should be left up to a closing Bureaucrat".
The above excludes three persons who stated "Oppose" for reasons I could not identify as being in the "consensus" category above and one person who suggested "85".
Vote 3
Overwhelming opposition to a two-stage process.
Vote 4
A number of people oppose the CDA concept.
Ben MacDui 12:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Interpretation of Poll Results
Vote 1 & Vote 2
Vote 1: It is remarkable that the first and second preferences come out so close together, suggesting a real "consensus". But a consensus about what? 62.xx% is clearly not the answer. 62% is also a shade over-precise. Do we adjust up to 65% or 70%, or down to 60% - or what?
Vote 2 - about a third (35%) favour 90% about a quarter (26%) "none" and the remaining 39 per cent favour 80%. This could be looked at a number of ways but my own view is that this is best understood as meaning that 65% favour either 80% or none.
Both the above results then lead me to the inescapable conclusion that what the community wants is, in effect a version of the RfA wording that states: "At the end of that period, a bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether there is a consensus for promotion. This is sometimes difficult to ascertain and is not a numerical measurement, but as a general descriptive rule of thumb most of those above ~80% approval pass; most of those below ~70% fail, and the area between is subject to bureaucratic discretion."
In this case however, given the arithmetic above, my suggestion is that the CDA Guide#Closure be amended to state: "Consensus is sometimes difficult to ascertain and is not a numerical measurement, but as a general descriptive rule of thumb most of those above 80% support for de-sysopping are passed; most of those below 65% fail, and the area between is subject to Bureaucratic discretion."
Vote 3 - no reason to go forward with this or amend the existing Guide or RfC proposal.
Vote 4 - a useful discussion but again, I can't see anything here that would lead to an amendment of the existing Guide/RfC.
Ben MacDui 12:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for closing it and starting to analyze the results. I will independently check the numbers, and also analyze the numbers a little more completely than you did, but it will not happen asap, for obvious reasons. A few observations, pending further thought: Vote 1: I see it similarly to you; we may need to figure out a different way of expressing the number/range in the document. Vote 2: Also see it similarly. My guess is that we need to stick with 80 at the top, re-evaluate 70 at the bottom, and, most importantly, look very carefully at the wording in the Guide to make sure it correctly reflects the difference between a guideline for Bureaucrats and a mandatory constraint, the latter being objectionable. Vote 3: Absolutely clear that we should present one final proposal, up or down, and not poll any further (but amending the existing drafts is another issue). Vote 4: Need to go through each criticism carefully and follow up with users who said they would make further suggestions, and need to look carefully at the FAQ to see if some objections can be addressed there. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- The second votes need to be presented for consideration too: it might be possible to complete an easy-reference table when the data is all collected. Hopefully things will become clear without too much number crunching though.
- Re VOTE 2, 90% and "none" are closer together surely, so the median is about 88%. It might be wise to move that downwards, and the lower one of around 62% upwards. Which could give the Bureaucrats a 65%-85% very "rule of thumb" consensus margin. After the percentages are settled, I agree that we need make sure we get the 'guideline' aspect of it right. That way, the Bureaucrats can easily get away with using 60%-70% to decide to take on a case (or dismiss one), and 80%-90% to decide whether to auto-desysop or not, avoiding all the drama. Using 65 and 85 'rule of thumb' allows for neat figures, if nothing else. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- Having 'none', or no top threshold (ie trusting the Bureaucrats to make an 'auto' de-sysop without having to see a vote percentage reached to do so) is closer in spirit to the higher 90% top threshold, than it is to 80%. 80% tends to suit people who want a guarantee that admin can effectively be removed by the actual vote, whereas 90% tends to be for people who want assurances that it won't happen too easily. 'None' is the ultimate safeguard, as makes sure that the vote alone won't be able to effectively remove an admin at all. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- The figures of 35%/39%/26% for 90/80/none are essentially useless; the summation you make ("65% in favour of 'less than 90%'" is countered by the equally-valid "74% in favour of some threshold", which is arguably more 'valid' by being a higher percentage. Or the slightly more exotic "61% opposition to an 80% threshold", or something more bizzarre still. You need to come up with a much more convincing way of justifying your arbitrary pair of options, because those numbers give a "consensus" to any such pair. The possibility that the data may be unusable should not be automatically discounted; trying to wring consensus out of a poll can be like wringing water from a rock. Happy‑melon 23:11, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- Nobody panic, please, we need to start by just voicing things. Between us we can surely find figures we are all happy with at least taking to RfC (or as close to 'all' as we can get), whether we decide to vote 'for' them or not. If the data is actually unusable I for one wouldn't want to use it. In retrospect it would have been better asking for people just to offer their own percentage rather than chosing one - but it didn't (couldn't really, at the time, as that was 'old ground', and this not-wholly-supported poll was just meant to refine) and that's just the way it is.
- HM, I know you personally chose not to vote (or give an 'oppose') in this recent poll, but how do you read the figures - does anything pop out? Also, do you think CDA can work at all? Do you find that your worries about Bureaucrats at present (which you expressed in #Bureaucrats), prevent you from accepting something where they have so much control over the outcome of? Matt Lewis (talk) 23:50, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- I do think there is mileage in CDA, and hope fervently that it will be a step towards the easy-come-easy-go ideal that we currently seem so far from. What I detect in this discussion, however, is overconfidence, the certainty that you've written a proposal that editors will line up to support, which at most needs a few tweaks. I recognise it because it's exactly what happened to me and the others at WP:FLR/T. Play devil's advocate with everything you say, because some of it is pitifully easy to dismantle. You say that one of the polls shows consensus for something, when all you've done is made an arbitrary choice of 'something', and any other outcome, including the polar opposite, is supported to the same extent by the same data. That's not going to last five minutes in a final poll. I raised the issue of bureaucrats above; I don't personally have a huge problem with it, but many people will. That faction is not one you can simply ignore; resolving issues like that is not a nice-to-do, it is essential. Essentially I'm playing Devil's Advocate here because no one else on the page seems willing to, and because if no one does you are going to get the shock of your lives when you put up what you think is a consensus proposal and it gets shot down in flames. Polls highlight problems, not solutions; you have to find the solutions yourselves. Happy‑melon 18:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- I can't really disagree that attempting to evaluate the results in a way that relies heavily on arithmetic is highly problematic - the questions simply don't lend themselves to "either/or" interpretation. However, we have to say something and I think my suggestion above, which is very close to the spirit of CDA, is about as close as we are going to get.
- I value your experience and if you can think of a phraseology of some kind that would assist the proposal that's very welcome. Ben MacDui 19:45, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- The reason we poll rather than vote is precisely that: consensus is not often found in numerical values but in reasoned discussion. Ignore the numbers, look at arguments. Who presents a reasonable point to support their !vote? How many people offer agreement to the point? Arguments that appear senseless are useful in their own right: ignore them to evaluate the consensus, but act to ensure that, if it were an honest misconception, it will not happen again. Votes without a rationale are essentially useless at this stage. In short, evaluate the poll as an admin, not a statistician. That's what you got the bit for. Happy‑melon 17:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- e/c. But who is the naive "you" you are refering to, though? With respect, you are lumping a lot of very different of people together. Most people with knowledge of these things (which is most of us here I think) would not be surprised for a moment if scores of admin who have turned their nose up so far, will join an oppose bandwagon, occasionally offering 'faults' as a reason, which they could easily (and actually helpfully if they wanted to) raise in the development stage. That most admin would never vote for a process like CDA is almost the received wisdom, and is even expressed by some admin. To that extent you are right in wanting to be as fussy as possible - but please don't fret so much, you are not the only one.
- So basically, there is no point in being openly (or unduly) negative about this, however you might feel deep down. Quite simply, these things are easily eased off track if people start believing they are going to lose. So let's get to work! Providing we make a water-tight proposal (part of the reason for the last poll - it wasn't a 'railroading' thing, quite the opposite), who know what will happen if enough editors get to hear about the final 'community' vote? Matt Lewis (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not saying don't be optimistic, quite the contrary. I'm saying don't be cavalier. The more people you are convinced will oppose on general principle, rational or otherwise, the more determined you should be to resolve as many legitimate issues as possible. I'm not saying that "you're going to lose"; I'm saying that you are quite correct to be saying that there is still much work to be done. Happy‑melon 17:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Some initial observations:
1. I think it is worth noting that when the voting began the CDA proposal (this page, the general links etc) was still somewhat untidy and difficult to follow (as these things inevitably get - no one to blame). Also, the FAQ was very incomplete for most of the poll, yet it was the place we intended to summarise previous discussion. Personally, I'm not convinced that many voters realised exactly how many safeguards this CDA proposal actually has (although the safeguards came up in discussion more as the poll went on).
2. A significant number of the 70% votes seemed to me to be less out of any real commitment to the 70% figure, and more out of various concerns, eg. Are the safeguards we have strong enough? This might be the only 'start' percentage the dissenters will vote for! I think the latter at least needs to be kept in mind.
3. 70% became less common as the vote went on, and hardly featured in the final quarter. This could be down to new blood, and may suggest that this is what the wider community would wish to vote for.
4. 66% had the most second-place votes at 18. At a glance, it looks like 50% had 5, 60% had 11, 70% had 9 and 75% had 1.
5. 6 of the total of 9 75% votes followed a notable pattern:
- 70 (66) Admins are asked to make decisions which may prove unpopular. Those seeking to desysop need to demonstrate they carry the community behind them.--Wehwalt (talk)
- 75 Per Wehwalt. I'd consider dropping this lower if there's a minimum total vote threshold, or once a track record of sufficient involvement and good discussion has evolved, but I don't want to see admins needing to garner large social networks of supporters against the inevitable dissatisfied individuals. Let's start high, and work down, rather than starting too low and risking factional politics taking out good admins. Jclemens (talk)
Five subsequent 75% voters said "per Jclemens":
- *
7075. JClemens makes an excellent point in 75's favor. - Dank (push to talk) 3:09 am, 18 January 2010, last Monday (8 days ago) (UTC+0) With all the opposition, I don't think there's any chance of getting almost everyone on board with a number lower than 75, and it's important to get almost everyone on board, otherwise these desysopping votes will be mostly about the process, which would be unfair to the admin being reviewed. - Dank (push to talk)
- 75 per Jclemens. Hordaland (talk)
- 75 as per JClemens. –Juliancolton | Talk
- 70-75 Crat discretion range. Mostly per Jclemens, also this site is too open to trolls and double !voting by sockpuppets for a simple majority to work. ϢereSpielChequers
- 75 per JClemens, with a minimum participation of 100 editors as the only people who should be up for this are those who would have at least 100 people participating due to the severity of what they did. If they have erred enough to have a community desysop discussion, the number of participants needs to be significant.
If these 5 of the 9 total 75% votes were adjusted to 70% (supposing for a moment that their legitimate fears of a lower percentage were eased), that could actually make the median vote-adjusted average (if 62.x%) 60% or even lower, although that would perhaps not suite these particular voters. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:50, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Matt Lewis (talk) 22:38, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- Are you sure you meant to say "median" in that last paragraph (and not "mean")? --Thinboy00 @221, i.e. 04:18, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- I've changed it to 'vote-adjusted average'. I think MacDui sees the first-choice votes (12 x 50%, 14 x 60%, 15 x 66%, 25 x 70% and 9 x 75%) being "close together" to the second-choice votes (5 x 50%, 11 x 60%, 18 x 66%, 9 x 70% and 1 x 75%) in the sense that they are both vote-heavy between 60% and 66%. When both are seen as a 'median', the mean of them is 63. I actually don't know how he got to 62.x, as he didn't give his calulation, but he does seems to see 65% as the 'overall' average though, and I would agree. When you just mull them over, 65% clearly springs out. (The above figures assume I have tolled up properly)
- If we are to be more exacting: Of all the percentage choices polled, the arithmetic mean is a little over 64%, and the geometric mean is a little under 64% (ie the 5th root of 50x60x66x70x75), but neither of course are touched by the voting yet. The question is how to adjust 64% (or each of the percentage choices individually) according to the voting weights. The 'second-choices' can be adjusted to for further analysis, as could the 75% adjustments. Perhaps someone could do all this, although with 65% being such a clear average, I don't personally see too great a need. Matt Lewis (talk) 12:21, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- The calculation is just the total numbers of all the votes added together divided by the number of voters. The above analysis does not correspond exactly to the result I have, but it isn't particularly relevant if we agree that the the mean lies somewhere between 62 and 65. The interesting thing about the second option in Vote 1 is that it implies that those who were initially aiming at a higher number than about 65 tended to have a lower number for the second option. Obversely, those that had 60 or lower as a first option tended to go higher with the second choice. Ben MacDui 20:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- It does seem that many on the two 'sides' would be willing to accept somewhere in the mid sixties for the baseline percentage. It seems like a consensus within the confines of VOTE 1, although there are all the VOTE 4 oppose votes and extra voices to take into account too. Regarding VOTE 2, as I see 'none' as coming from a similar mindset to 90%, 85% is about the the mean average for me after the three percentages (80, 90 and 100) are broadly vote-adjusted. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:51, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- I have no idea what all this maths is about and haven't checked whether it makes sense, but as I said above, this is not an exercise in statistics, it's in consensus-building. If the majority of people would be willing to accept a particular figure, the justification for that is in the arguments they put next to their numbers, not the numbers themselves. ""70. 60 would also be fine with me, but I think 70 will be more acceptable to the community." is a user who would readily accept a value of 63%. ""70 (66) because two-thirds should be that minimum requirement to reverse established consensus."" is a user who would not. The ideal number has nothing to do with the arithmetic or geometric mean and everything to do with which argument is most likely to hold sway in further discussion. That sort of evaluation is infinitely harder and more time-consuming than the simple vote-count-and-stats, but is the only analysis worth doing. Happy‑melon 17:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Good point, will do, thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 17:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- You simply have to look at both the various calculations alongside the comments, and more besides. You can't ignore the maths, it's too useful. It's about taking into consideration all the data we have at hand - both within the poll and without it. There is sometimes a fear when numbers (or stats or whatever) are being discussed that people's feelings and comments are therefore going to be ignored (or compromised) - that won't be the case, esp if we all directly discuss things. We've only really made a few basic calculations to see how that poll went, and unfortunately we can't quite agree on the results. But I think we do have to in some fashion record the 'findings', despite the poll being as much an opinion-finding exercise as a vote. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I have no idea what all this maths is about and haven't checked whether it makes sense, but as I said above, this is not an exercise in statistics, it's in consensus-building. If the majority of people would be willing to accept a particular figure, the justification for that is in the arguments they put next to their numbers, not the numbers themselves. ""70. 60 would also be fine with me, but I think 70 will be more acceptable to the community." is a user who would readily accept a value of 63%. ""70 (66) because two-thirds should be that minimum requirement to reverse established consensus."" is a user who would not. The ideal number has nothing to do with the arithmetic or geometric mean and everything to do with which argument is most likely to hold sway in further discussion. That sort of evaluation is infinitely harder and more time-consuming than the simple vote-count-and-stats, but is the only analysis worth doing. Happy‑melon 17:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
break
As promised, I've counted very carefully, and also thought very carefully about how to interpret the results. Here is what I find. As above, please feel free to check my numbers for accuracy.
- VOTE 1:
- First, counting only the first-choice !votes, one per customer:
- 50%: 14
- 60%: 16
- 66%: 15
- 70%: 25
- 75%: 10
- Blanket oppose: 4
- Total editors participating: 84 (which is the sum of the above)
- First, counting only the first-choice !votes, one per customer:
- Second, counting (counting equally, too complicated to try weighting them) all preferences (first, second, third) that were expressed:
- 50%: 18
- 60%: 27
- 65%: 2
- 66%: 30
- 70%: 35
- 75%: 14
- Second, counting (counting equally, too complicated to try weighting them) all preferences (first, second, third) that were expressed:
- VOTE 2:
- Counting first-choices:
- 70%: 1
- 80%: 26
- 85%: 1
- 90%: 24
- "None" or "Oppose" or 100%: 25
- Total editors participating: 77 (which is the sum of the above)
- Counting first-choices:
- Editors supporting 80% who say explicitly that 90% is unacceptable: 3
- Editors supporting 90% who say explicitly that 80% is unacceptable: 0 (some ambiguity about that, and I have a COI as one of those 3)
My analysis of Votes 1 and 2:
- It is a mathematical/statistical mistake to calculate means. That falls under what Happy-Melon correctly described as misinterpretation of poll data. It's better to look at how the numbers distributed. When just looking at first choices, Vote 1 gives a spread across all the values considered, with a peak around 70%. When including alternate choices as well, a clearer picture emerges, with a peak at 66%-70%. Vote 2 gave pretty much an equal distribution amongst 80%, 90%, and various forms of objection.
- Some but not all of the Vote 1 !votes in the 70-75% range came from editors who say they will oppose the final proposal. Otherwise, there is little indication that editors who supported one value for the lower end would consider it a deal-breaker if another value in this range were chosen instead. Many editors commented that they want Bureaucrats to have leeway, not strict numerical rules. In Vote 2, it should be noted that quite a few editors said "None" to indicate that they oppose the proposal in any form, quite a few said it to indicate that they want to give Bureaucrats leeway, quite a few to indicate that they want desysoping to be difficult, and quite a few to indicate that they want it to be easy. Similarly, quite a few supported 90% because they want it to be difficult to desysop, while quite a few supported it because they want to give Bureaucrats leeway. Thus, in Vote 2, there were often different and contradictory reasons for similar-looking !votes.
- So, what to conclude? In the previous poll, it became very clear that Uncle G's original wording was subject to confusion: did consensus mean 70% to desysop, or 70% to remain a sysop? The community spoke clearly in saying that the percentage needed to be well above 50%; lower percentages were decisively rejected. SilkTork proposed language that emphasized Bureaucrat discretion, and it remains clear now that the community does not want strict numerical limits that constrain Bureaucratic discretion, but that the community also wants a much-greater-than 50% majority to desysop. So, we need to say something to make that latter point clear, without tying Bureaucrats' hands. One thing we can do is to look carefully at the wording of the proposal, to make sure we make clear that the numbers are not constraining (see my suggestion: [1]). Beyond that, there does not appear to be any compelling reason to change 80% at the high end. Any change upwards would bring as many opposes at it would supports, and there is just no compelling reason on the merits. At the low end, however, there is a case for adjusting the number slightly. Perhaps we should change "70%" to "65–70%"? That creates a range within a range, but it may better reflect community sentiment.
- VOTE 3:
- Very clear: present a single, finished proposal, for an up-or-down !vote, and get the details right before doing so.
- VOTE 4:
- An Arbitrator raised, but hasn't yet explained, an issue with how we define "editors in good standing" for nominating. It would be good to clear that up before going ahead with the RfC.
- Some editors worry about nominations being made in the heat of anger. We should add a point to the FAQ addressing this misconception.
--Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think that combining first and second choice figures and finding a 'peak' is the wrong way to look at it, and it misses the only consensus that I can personally see in the vote: that the 'mid sixties' is accepted by a significant amount of both 'parties'. If we go for a figure above 66%, then 77 of those 'combined votes' would be below it! Quite a number of people voted for 70% as they felt it was the most likely percentage to pass, and not out of any real commitment to it. A number said they would lower it too, if assured of things. The fact there are so many '70%s' when combining votes reflects a number of complexities. The community will only be voting for the proposal they see in front of them course (they won't have an opportunity to vote for the CDA they think others want), so we have a duty to give them the CDA that they would likley prefer. Some of the reasons for voting seriously effect the readings.
- Also - I can't see we can keep 80% at the high end, when the 90% and 'none' votes together outweigh it around 2:1! Again, we must make sure we have consensus.
- I do think we need a single baseline figure, but we could offer an each-way leeway on top of the "rule of thumb" nature of the whole matter. I would say 65%, with a 5% leeway each-way for the baseline, and 85% with a 5% leeway each-way for the threshold. But that could be over-complicating matters. When I look at the figures, the only thing that seems clear is that 65 and 85 are likely to be the most widely accepted percentages. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- Your analysis here as well as higher up is wrong in so many ways I find it hard to know where to begin. The peak is there whether or not one adds in the second choices. It's how the responses were distributed. You ignore what editors actually said, in favor of predicting how they would !vote according to how you wanted the poll to turn out. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:35, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- I've looked at what people have said and the votes. I'm not ignoring anything, and my personal preference is for no percentages at all, as I originally said! I voted 60/90 as I could accept these, but I can see 65/85 coming through the figures in front of me. I'm not conning anyone!
- If someone says "I will accept this and nothing else" we can't really take that into account, unless it is a common theme. The two principal themes I can see are 1) I don't really want 70% but I'm voting for it as I think the dissenters will demand it, and 2) If I saw better safeguards, my 75% would come down. Without actually adjusting for either of them, 65% still stands out as the average to me, and as the key second-place votes gravitate to it from both 'sides', as MacDui pointed out, it would appear to make it a reasonable consensus. I certainly can't see any other. Anyway, all my points I've detailed in my comments above. We're clearly going to need a lot of input here. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- I've stated before that I trust the main participants to hash this out. But, if input is asked for I'll offer this: 65/85 or the slightly more simplified two-thirds/seven-eighths percentages look right to me based on what's been written since the closure of the voting. What I would suggest is a section below of opinions from only editors who actually stated a percentage (including 100% or "none" for v.2) above who oppose or support one of those two consensus ranges as a "rule of thumb". Comments about the results should only come from actual voters, as what is being asked for is clarification, not a new slew of opinion. Ultimately, given IAR, I think a "rule of thumb" is primarily what it would be in any case. I certainly hope that doesn't complicate things, but I think that type of input might help explain where the consensus really is. Sswonk (talk) 01:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what to say. Especially given the complaint about what is this page for, just below, I'd certainly appreciate a larger number of editors offering advice on how best to interpret the results. I'd also caution other editors who are helping with this, against rushing too quickly to conclusions just for the sake of starting an RfC soon.
- What does weigh heavily in my thinking is where Happy-melon said very wisely above: "You say that one of the polls shows consensus for something, when all you've done is made an arbitrary choice of 'something', and any other outcome, including the polar opposite, is supported to the same extent by the same data... Polls highlight problems, not solutions; you have to find the solutions yourselves." When I look at the question that was posed in Vote 2, it said: "Do you prefer a 'desysop threshold' of 80% or 90%, or having none at all? As a "rule of thumb", the Bureaucrats will automatically de-sysop the Administrator standing under CDA if the percentage reaches this 'threshold'. Currently it is 80% (per proposal 5.4). Please vote "80" or "90", or "None", giving a second preference if you have one." A problem with polls is that people answer the question they were asked, and the wording of the question matters. Only one editor decided the wording of the questions. The question offered these three choices and no others, and implied that the three options were questions raised by earlier polling, and yet they were not. It also says "automatically". That was blatantly false. The wording of the proposal at the time was emphatically not that it would be automatic. So editors were being asked to answer a straw-man question. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Look, 80% etc was the "rule of thumb" automatic de-sysop percentage. Ie the 'threshold percentage' being reached facilitates an automatic de-sysop (avoiding the laborious discussion-phase and consensus-finding etc - the whole point of the "automatic" part), unless the bureaucrats decide it is so not simple (there could be gaming etc), so take it to discussion phase instead (hence the "rule of thumb" for the exact percentages).
- I've stated before that I trust the main participants to hash this out. But, if input is asked for I'll offer this: 65/85 or the slightly more simplified two-thirds/seven-eighths percentages look right to me based on what's been written since the closure of the voting. What I would suggest is a section below of opinions from only editors who actually stated a percentage (including 100% or "none" for v.2) above who oppose or support one of those two consensus ranges as a "rule of thumb". Comments about the results should only come from actual voters, as what is being asked for is clarification, not a new slew of opinion. Ultimately, given IAR, I think a "rule of thumb" is primarily what it would be in any case. I certainly hope that doesn't complicate things, but I think that type of input might help explain where the consensus really is. Sswonk (talk) 01:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Your analysis here as well as higher up is wrong in so many ways I find it hard to know where to begin. The peak is there whether or not one adds in the second choices. It's how the responses were distributed. You ignore what editors actually said, in favor of predicting how they would !vote according to how you wanted the poll to turn out. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:35, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- Tryptofish - you refused to work on the poll before hand, and said nothing of this at the start of it (when you could have) or during it - so why criticise the wording now? You were essentially the first voter, so you could have edited the questions before you voted in it, and you must have noticed that I incorporated all the suggestions made in the Comments section after the poll had started (but before you voted), like the points that actually became VOTE 3 and VOTE 4.
- I always knew these kind of post-poll criticisms would be made, but that's life as I stuck my neck out and made the thing. I'll only say this: I got that poll out as quickly as I could, as a proposal for an 'RfA asap' was made expressly to counter me doing it. So the poll wasn't perfect (or perfectly written) - but that's life. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:11, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Matt, I actually suggested alternative wording for the poll, which you ignored. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I replied to you at the time that I couldn't see where you said did that, and you didn't respond. Unless you meant this? I couldn't work that out (as I said at the time), and I still can't. I did just appear to exaggerate what was mostly only an initial negativity to the poll by you though, for which I will apologise. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- OK, anyway, what we agree on now is, going forward, to look at what we have and understand it correctly, and make the best proposal we can. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I replied to you at the time that I couldn't see where you said did that, and you didn't respond. Unless you meant this? I couldn't work that out (as I said at the time), and I still can't. I did just appear to exaggerate what was mostly only an initial negativity to the poll by you though, for which I will apologise. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Matt, I actually suggested alternative wording for the poll, which you ignored. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I've gone back and looked again, according to what Happy-melon said immediately above the "break". It's not always clear what editors intended, but this is what I could do:
- VOTE 1:
- Would support 50-60%: 19 (few seem likely to oppose if number is higher)
- Would support 60-70%: 5, plus 43 from sub-groups below = 48. (few in sub-groups seem likely to oppose anywhere between 60-70%)
- Would support 60-66%: 14
- Would support 66-70%: 29
- Would support 70-75%: 11 (includes some who mainly oppose, and some who will oppose if number is lower)
- VOTE 2:
- Would clearly support 80-90%: 3
- Support 80%, would not or might not support 90%: 28
- Support 90%, would not or might not support 80%: 24 (includes some who mainly oppose)
I'm not sure that really changes what I said above. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:11, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think these are too complicated, rather confusing and a little leading too. The readings are very heavily weighted towards those who've said "no" to certain outcomes. We mustn't forget that in VOTE 2, 90% and 100% together outpolled 80% two to one. We musn't miss the wood for the trees here.
- Also, '60%' was one of the polled percentages - are the votes for it included in both the 50-60 and the 60-70 groups? The second-choice votes from both 'extremes' actually gravitated towards the mid-60's. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
A simple model
(moved to this section from bottom of page)
Let's look at a Hypothetical situation, which we try to resolve with this process.
We propose to a hypothetical community of 100 hypotheticopedians, the following situation:
All 100 hypotheticopedians are riding on a bus. The bus comes around a corner at 100 km/h, and suddenly, there's an obstacle in the way! Now the group needs to decide what to do. There is still time to brake. The bus is not equipped with ABS or ESP, so it can't brake (or accelerate) and turn at the same time without (a presumably terminal) loss of control. Everyone is aware of this.
At the start of the discussion, exactly 60 people go by their gut instincts, and think that the bus should swerve. 40 people realize that they don't actually know what's past the wall, and believe that they should hit the brakes and stop.
The following questions are proposed:
- How should we steer?
- Swerve Left
- Swerve Right
- Go straight
- What about our speed?
- Hit the brakes
- Hit the gas
- Don't touch the pedals!
How will this vote go?
- Those in favor of swerving will choose to swerve either right or left, and are tied at 30 each on swerve left or swerve right. At the same time if you swerve, you can't touch the pedals, or the bus will skid out of control, so all 60 support "don't touch the pedals", as anything else is obviously crazy!
- All 40 in favor of stopping will all go for "hit the brakes". Turning the wheel whilst braking is suicidal due to lack of abs, so they all vote to go straight. They are not, after all, stupid. ;-)
Final scores:
- How should we steer?
- Swerve Left 30
- Swerve Right 30
- Go straight 40
- What about our speed?
- Hit the brakes 40
- Hit the gas 0
- Don't touch the pedals! 60
From this poll, we conclude that the wheel should be held straight, and one should not touch the pedals.
At the conclusion of the poll, they carry out what all acclaim to be the ideal course of action, which is most likely to save their lives.
The bus hits the wall at 100 km/h, and everyone dies.
Questions:
- What went wrong?
- Why was no correct solution reached?
- Who is to blame for the accident?
- How could the example problem have been solved differently?
--Kim Bruning (talk) 16:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC) As far as I'm aware, I have used the same poll design as has been used throughout this process. If not, please correct me!
Opinion: Thank you for your contributions. While I can assume good faith, I can also see the initiation of this topic in this manner as a tortured attempt to derail the completion of this phase of the process by posting an improbable hyperbolic metaphor unrelated to serious efforts to conclude the work. As before, it might be characterized as a smokescreen, diversion, red herring and distraction, but not really constructive. There were questions about the threshold numbers, a poll was conducted to gain a sense of what consensus on their values is, and that poll has been taken into consideration. There is no bus, no driver and no wall to crash into. I suggest that the main contributors here not waste time responding with another long series of back-and-forth argument about Kim's new topic and instead focus on concluding the work. Sswonk (talk) 17:09, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- That's an unwarrented assumption of bad faith, and I really don't deserve that, especially based on my very long record of constructive contributions to wikipedia, of which this is one.
- There is indeed no bus, no driver and no wall, obviously. They're all just part of a model: Model_(abstract), Toy model . I think the process used may have issues when 2 questions are (unintentionally) causally linked. In that situation, the outcome is not reliable. It would at the very least be useful to check all the questions to see if there are questions where this problem might occur.
- Your own comment does not appear to be constructive. Are you willing to apologise? --Kim Bruning (talk) 17:31, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Not at all. Read correctly, the opinion I stated assumes good faith but shows that bad faith might be assumed, thus initiating a virtual brawl over the content of your prose. Too much time has been spent discussing the faults of the bureaucratic methods used and I am asking that, in order to realize a sound document at the conclusion here, the main contributors focus on that work rather than perform forensics on methods previously used. Considered against the recent efforts to refine and summarize the details of the nomination and review process given in the draft, your new topic in my view detracts from that work. I do not want you to be upset by the opinion I offered, surely everyone has thousands of edits and valuable input in the past to stand on. If you are offended, I don't wish that to be the case, but rather I hope that you don't hold up the end game here. By reading my opinion and seeing that it might be seen that you are throwing a monkey wrench into the gears (spanner in the works), I hope you will not pursue a concerted effort here which could take the focus away from finishing and instead dissecting the methods already used. What you wrote is food for thought, but I don't see it as something the primary editors of the draft, of which I am not one, should spend time discussing with you at this stage. Sswonk (talk) 17:51, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, on re-reading, I see what you mean. <scratches head>.
- That's a meta-level of politics I haven't seen here very often. I'm going to have to think about what to say next (if I say anything at all).
- And of course, I'd like to offer my own apologies for misreading what you said. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 18:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Due to the edit conflict, (shouldn't MW have produced a better forum venue by now, it's 2010!), I did not take time to consider your insertion of the middle paragraph about scientific models. It solidifies my understanding that your topic is food for thought, so at this stage I will step back and wait for others to comment here. I simply think that the RfC is near good enough, and the language open ended enough, for arbs to subject any CDA process to form their own conclusions if a CDA petition is presented to them. Down the road, at future RfC draft discussions regarding policy, your somewhat difficult to grasp example should be considered during polling. Sswonk (talk) 18:15, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
What is the point of this page?
The length and circuitousness of the discussion here does grave injustice to transparency. By the time you finally propose something, people will be so sick and tired of the endless process that they will oppose for the sake of ending it all. We don't want bureaucracy run amok, which is what this page has become. Jehochman Brrr 14:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Shame on you Jehochman - the opposite is true. You just keep proving to us that some 'admin' feel they can do and say what the hell they like. What was the point of periodically saying this stuff, other than to cause disharmony? You have never once backed up your quite serious claim. Regarding "sickness", speak for yourself and not for others. If you want to see how childishly admin can behave, just propose a form of Admin Recall it seems. I understand consensus. I understand how Wikipedia should not be a closed shop, and how wide input can lead to long discussion (wich you misleadingly claim is 'bureaucracy'). I understand how these matters can (and sometimes have to) take time. It strikes me that you either understand none of these things, or simply want aggitate the small amount of impatience around... Matt Lewis (talk) 17:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- My disgust grows daily. The point seems to be to alienate all sides with endless dithering, polling, and process for the sake of process. My attempts to set a reasonable date for an Rfc have been rebuffed. I fail to understand what is so difficult about this. In my outlook, the Cda proposal has effectively been hijacked. I again call for a date to be set for an Rfc. Jusdafax 17:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Can't you see you are falling into a trap here? You would have received the above with spades if you ran with 70/80, knowing FULL WELL you could not show there was consensus for it. Such unashamed railroading has nothing to do with what Wikipedia is supposed to be about. Jehochman started the 'Motion to Close' the entire CdA propsal, remember - he would have tampled all over 70/80 at the RfC. Matt Lewis (talk) 17:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know how to stop the process. My strong urge is that the RFC go with a "send to arbs with prejudice"/"arbs should desysop without discussion" recommendation based on 65/85 percentage of support following CDA discussion closure. Don't bother parsing or analyzing my exact words, you should know what I mean. Unless there is vehement and quick objection here to that being done, I submit this page should be closed at 00:00 27 January 2010, or six hours from the top of this hour. Sswonk (talk) 17:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Sswonk, there is no reason to shut down discussion simply because tempers are running high, and there is no way an acceptable RfC can be prepared on that time scale. Matt, drop it. Everyone else, Matt speaks only for himself, not for the proposal that will emerge. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:58, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Tempers are not the problem. Continued distraction by pointless (red herring/smokescreen, take your pick) objections to the "scary bureaucracy" is the problem. My interpretation of events is: the proposal asking for the extension of this discussion, where Sarah777 wrote "I think we need the additional time to (1) work on the most favoured options on the list above; (2) refine them into a proposal that gains a simple majority in a vote by a deadline (15 January)"[2], and which was nearly unanimously supported, has now dragged on past the 15th to today, the 26th. I fail to see what is unacceptable about the RfC that won't simply be objected to in some other convoluted way going forward. The vote was requested to be done by the 15th and, albeit several days late, now is closed. It is time to move forward. Sswonk (talk) 18:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Move forward with what, specifically? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- The previous closure extension had two steps, one to end on the 15th. This is that. The second, "set up a vote on the formulation supported by a simple majority and circulate news of the vote widely across the community. This vote to have a deadline of 31 January." – that, I interpreted to mean the RfC itself. So, whoever is bold enough to do so should finish and publish the document, initiate the RfC and notify the community using the best practices established for such a vote. That is what I meant by "move forward". What else was supposed to happen after 4 January, the original closure deadline before Sarah777's proposal to extend was approved? Sswonk (talk) 18:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand that, but I'm asking: are you going to put the RfC forward with 66%, 85%, what? On whose say-so? And do you think that the FAQ is ready? WP:There is no deadline. Actually, Skomorokh and GoodDay said it better than I did. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I said above, and you quite obviously read it since you responded using my username, 65/85. If there is no deadline, which I understand quite well, what was 4 January? 15 January? 31 January? More generally, 7 days for an AfD? What? If this wasn't already under two deadlines before, I wouldn't suggest one to close here. But it was. The end of this discussion has no end based on the ability of anyone or several ones to cite WP:DEADLINE. It is a strange loop, which will lead exactly to the frustration exhibited by persons interested in seeing the acceptance of CDA generally. People voted, now we are wringing hands over what the vote "means"? The obvious conclusion I see is that 65/85 will be a compromise that can be contained in a viable RfC, while 50/None or 70/80 won't. My desire is that the chief participants end this phase, quickly, and get the FAQ done and go to the community. The proposal of CDA will become policy, of that I am almost certain. If it needs to be refined after it's RfC is passed, that is the time to tweak it. The fundamental message here, I feel, is CDA is viable. Stop opening it to further objection here and rather get it out into the entire community of editors. Sswonk (talk) 19:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- You know, we agree more than we disagree. I just feel that, once we "get it out", we better be confident we have it right. You said 85 almost simultaneously with MacDui saying not-85. And the best way to get it out is to actually work on what it will say, not by arguing about this. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I said above, and you quite obviously read it since you responded using my username, 65/85. If there is no deadline, which I understand quite well, what was 4 January? 15 January? 31 January? More generally, 7 days for an AfD? What? If this wasn't already under two deadlines before, I wouldn't suggest one to close here. But it was. The end of this discussion has no end based on the ability of anyone or several ones to cite WP:DEADLINE. It is a strange loop, which will lead exactly to the frustration exhibited by persons interested in seeing the acceptance of CDA generally. People voted, now we are wringing hands over what the vote "means"? The obvious conclusion I see is that 65/85 will be a compromise that can be contained in a viable RfC, while 50/None or 70/80 won't. My desire is that the chief participants end this phase, quickly, and get the FAQ done and go to the community. The proposal of CDA will become policy, of that I am almost certain. If it needs to be refined after it's RfC is passed, that is the time to tweak it. The fundamental message here, I feel, is CDA is viable. Stop opening it to further objection here and rather get it out into the entire community of editors. Sswonk (talk) 19:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand that, but I'm asking: are you going to put the RfC forward with 66%, 85%, what? On whose say-so? And do you think that the FAQ is ready? WP:There is no deadline. Actually, Skomorokh and GoodDay said it better than I did. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- The previous closure extension had two steps, one to end on the 15th. This is that. The second, "set up a vote on the formulation supported by a simple majority and circulate news of the vote widely across the community. This vote to have a deadline of 31 January." – that, I interpreted to mean the RfC itself. So, whoever is bold enough to do so should finish and publish the document, initiate the RfC and notify the community using the best practices established for such a vote. That is what I meant by "move forward". What else was supposed to happen after 4 January, the original closure deadline before Sarah777's proposal to extend was approved? Sswonk (talk) 18:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Move forward with what, specifically? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Tempers are not the problem. Continued distraction by pointless (red herring/smokescreen, take your pick) objections to the "scary bureaucracy" is the problem. My interpretation of events is: the proposal asking for the extension of this discussion, where Sarah777 wrote "I think we need the additional time to (1) work on the most favoured options on the list above; (2) refine them into a proposal that gains a simple majority in a vote by a deadline (15 January)"[2], and which was nearly unanimously supported, has now dragged on past the 15th to today, the 26th. I fail to see what is unacceptable about the RfC that won't simply be objected to in some other convoluted way going forward. The vote was requested to be done by the 15th and, albeit several days late, now is closed. It is time to move forward. Sswonk (talk) 18:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I have tried to be patient, but at this point I have to agree with those that call for this endless nattering to be stopped at once, unless a reasonable date is set for an Rfc today. Failing that, perhaps in a few months or years we take up this subject again. I speak as someone who believes in Cda and has devoted considerable time to the debate, and is now at the end of his tether. Jusdafax 18:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like you need to take a break and let the authors of this proposal get on with it. In the event that nothing productive results from this effort, no harm is done by letting it run its course. If however this does result in a viable proposal to be put before the community, rushing matters will be of absolutely no benefit. Skomorokh 18:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- If one is frustrated, one only needs to step away. The earth will continue to rotate on its axis, while the CDA thingy is ironed out. We've got the time & the space, by all means allow the process to continue. GoodDay (talk) 18:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I proposed a community desysop procedure last year, am interested in the topic and would like to be involved in the discussion. However, I feel that circular reasoning, poor management of the discussion, extreme rhetoric (such as the accusations of bad faith against me), and endless stonewalling have ruined this discussion. Instead of blowing me off, please address my concerns. What is this page for? Can we organize a discussion that actually leads toward some sort of resolution? Jehochman Brrr 19:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Speaking only for myself, I'd welcome that from you, and I'm sorry that, because we cannot all speak with one voice, the voices have been, well, disparate. But honestly, I don't understand what, specifically, you are asking for in terms of what would actually be proposed. At this point, it seems to me that we are deciding what to propose in the document to be presented to the community, not to discuss the process that has already occurred. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:18, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Good. As far as I can see we require two things to be clear before closing this page as an "active discussion".
- Clarity about the actual results of the poll so that a brief summary can be added to Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/Pre RfC Summaries.
- Agreement or clarity, about what changes, if any are appropriate to make to Guide to CDA based on this information.
- The former should not be difficult, although precision is difficult because of the nature of some answers. I'd be happy to look again at my numbers, square them as best I can with Tryptofish's and present something below based on the latter's analysis - although it will not be today. If this produces further elaborate discussion then I suggest we simply use something that approximates agreement and direct the curious back here if they want to see the detail.
- For the latter I don't think there has been a counter-proposal to "Consensus is sometimes difficult to ascertain and is not a numerical measurement, but as a general descriptive rule of thumb most of those above 80% support for de-sysopping are passed; most of those below 65% fail, and the area between is subject to Bureaucratic discretion." save that suggestion that 85% replace 80%. I don't support 85% per Trypto's logic above.
- I sympathise with those that are running out of patience here - I am as keen as anyone to get on with the RfC, but it can't be at the expense of extracting a little more clarity about the meaning of this poll's results. Ben MacDui 19:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well said, with maybe a need to work a little further than that on the wording about percentages. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:18, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, Ben. At this point I'll go along with whatever is decided for final wording. However, setting a firm date for an RfC is long overdue. How much more time is required? Ten days? Fifteen? Twenty? Thirty? Ha, perhaps we should have a poll about it and argue about the meaning of each word? The time has come to give this process an ending. Otherwise I regretfully agree with Sswonk... stop the madness. I tried to set a date, which is now past. Do you see a date in February for an Rfc? In this case, a deadline is needed. With respect and urgency, Jusdafax 19:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I am as keen as any editor to get a working CDA set-up operational, but see absolutely no need for the urgency to which you allude. Yes, this process has taken a long time. Yes, it has seemed convoluted and inefficient at some points. Neither of those are good reasons for rushing to a botched conclusion. A better approach would be to ask how we could help expedite the steps Ben mentions without compromising on the thought and effort required. Everyone here wants to present the best proposal we can make, so let's focus on that goal rather than putting pressure on each other. Skomorokh 19:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict, and Skomorokh says it better than I do) Again just speaking for myself, I'd be surprised if it takes beyond early February. But I've been surprised before, as I bet you have too. I'm glad that you'll go along with whatever is the final wording. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that many other editors will, too. Let's just make sure that it will actually be community consensus. I'd much prefer a mid-February RfC that passes, over an early-February one that fails. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, Ben. At this point I'll go along with whatever is decided for final wording. However, setting a firm date for an RfC is long overdue. How much more time is required? Ten days? Fifteen? Twenty? Thirty? Ha, perhaps we should have a poll about it and argue about the meaning of each word? The time has come to give this process an ending. Otherwise I regretfully agree with Sswonk... stop the madness. I tried to set a date, which is now past. Do you see a date in February for an Rfc? In this case, a deadline is needed. With respect and urgency, Jusdafax 19:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well said, with maybe a need to work a little further than that on the wording about percentages. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:18, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Good. As far as I can see we require two things to be clear before closing this page as an "active discussion".
- A steady and assured pace is what we need, with the ability to (without fear) stop to debate whenever we have to. I personally don't want it to last a second longer than it needs to. But I just can't see fully ahead yet, other than I know we can do this if we keep on track.
- Admin are rarely taken 'higher' over minor matters, let alone serious ones, so my guess is that CdA will hardly be used, whatever variant is proposed. One reason why I didn't personally want to see the baseline as high as 70% is that it would put already-reticent people off risking it, and the CdA process would give Wikipedians a false sense of fairness, while the actual admin around and about wouldn't be worrying about it at all. At 70%, I think admin could say "take me to CdA if you have a problem" without worrying too much that someone would bother doing it, esp if it was widely known that the admin had enough 'friends'. And we would see none of the 'net benefits', like the presence of CDA (as oppose to the use of it) encouraging admin to work/think/behave in a slightly more accountable manner than the complete freedom to do and say whatever suits them, which they have in far too many situations now. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Community de-adminship (from the talk page of Cda originator Uncle G, October '09)
"A great idea. How can it get approval, and what relationship does it have to Wikipedia:Requests for de-adminship? Fences&Windows 21:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hey Uncle G, I just noticed this too. Would you want to list it at Wikipedia:WikiProject Administrator? If everyone works together, maybe we can get some of the changes that folks want. I know there are at least 3 or 4 other pages along these lines (listed there) - and I think a co-ordinated effort would go a long way towards making things happen. — Ched : ? 05:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Feel free to list it if you want to. As to adoption, I quote to you the wise words of Radiant!, inventor of Wikipedia:Proposed deletion: "It's been discussed to death several times for at least half a year. There are at least three older proposals that in essence are the same as this one, only somewhat more complex. We can discuss for another half year, or we can go for a test run for a chance." The same is true here. There are existing proposals in this case, and they are either less fully formed (with vague handwaving on the details such as how actual requests are structured) or full of bicycle shed elements (such as laundry lists of why people should be de-sysopped). Hence the reason that I presented WP:CDA at WP:RFAR as a mechanism to actually use, with a concrete implementation and without such bicycle sheds to argue over. Uncle G (talk) 06:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)"
I post this here to point out the thoughts of Cda originator Uncle G from over three months ago. Set a date for an Rfc... today! Jusdafax 19:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you. Don't worry... today. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I was set a date once to move into a new house. That date was put back twice as it wasn't quite finished yet. Boy, was I annoyed. Not annoyed enough though to move into an unfinished house. Can you imagine if I had and the building collapsed around my ears! What's the rush, a little patience does no harm, it actually benefits everyone in the long run. Jack forbes (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Specific section to be worked on
In hopes of focusing productively on the actual task at hand, here is the sentence of the draft proposal, prior to the most recent poll and discussions:
- "Thus, for an Administrator to be de-sysopped, a Bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether both a minimum of 50 editors and a general consensus support de-sysopping. Consensus is sometimes difficult to ascertain and is not a numerical measurement, but as a general descriptive rule of thumb, above 80% support for de-sysopping would be acceptable; while support below 70% would not be, and the area between is subject to bureaucratic discretion."
I subsequently have made some bold edits during this poll, in hopes of partially addressing the concerns that have been raised:
- "Thus, for an Administrator to be de-sysopped, a Bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether both a minimum of 50 editors and a general consensus support de-sysopping. Consensus is sometimes difficult to ascertain and is not a numerical measurement, but as a non-binding descriptive rule of thumb, above approximately 80% support for de-sysopping would usually be acceptable; while support below approximately 70% would usually not be, and the area between is subject to bureaucratic discretion."
At this point, what we are really still discussing comes down to:
- Should the wording be further modified to better reflect community wishes?
- Should "70%" be replaced with something else?
- Should "80%" be replaced with something else, or removed completely?
That's really it, as far as I understand. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- You might as well use 100% as those percentages. Any admin with so much opposition will be forced to resign well before this proposed process ever swings into motion. You're building a gravel road next to a superhighway. Why bother? Jehochman Brrr 16:52, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Instead, the idea should be extremely simple: "If an RFC shows a solid majority of editors (let's say 2:1) feeling that adminship should be removed, then a bureaucrat will close the discussion and ask a Steward to flip the bit off. Normal RFC rules, processes and protections against gaming are in effect." There. Done. Go propose it and see what sort of feedback you get. Maybe people will argue for 1.5:1 or 3:1 ratios. Such details can be worked out. Jehochman Brrr 16:56, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for suggesting these things. I agree with you that, by now, what I asked above is really coming down to a pretty simple question—despite all the talk surrounding it. The issue, I think, is that although it seems like there is a lot of agreement about there needing to be "a solid majority", there are differing views about how to define that. You've said 2:1 as an example here, which is 66%, a value that is very much what we are discussing here. A lot of editors have already said that they have issues about it needing to be 2:1 versus 3:1 or vice-versa, and so forth, and all I am really asking here is to agree on how we'll say it, based on the huge amount of feedback we've gotten already. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I still don't understand how such a compromising process can be personalised (ie who is the "you are.." you refer to?). Wikipedia is about finding consensus from a wide and often widely-disagreeing group of people. How else can you do that other than to listen to people (occasionally poll etc), and at times find the compromise position?
- As it happens, I agree with having no top threshold at all, but that boat has surely sailed now? A lot of people voted for 'none' in VOTE 2, but the vote was seriously split. No threshold was my first (and still ideal) position on joining the debate (ie to trust consensus), but it soon became apparent to me that most people feel there is no way administrators (and their supporters, aspirants etc) will vote for anything that would remove a 'sysop right' at less than a seriously high percentage. That is surely why there has ended up being such a high threshold, with a 'consensus margin' underneath.
- In VOTE 2, People are genuinely divided into those saying "80% MAXIMUM!" for the auto-sysop threhold (to make sure the community can actually remove someone themselves), and wanting the threshold as high as posible (or having no threshold), either to protect a previously decent admin in extremis, to rely only on consensus, or simply to encourage the opponents of CdA to actually vote for it. I picked 90% as it was a compromise between actually having a 'auto-desysop' figure, and the admin-protection position of wanting it to be as high as possible. A lot has been compromise, but as such divided positions can't be ignored, compromise is just a fact of life.
- Will '66% and out' (with some caveats etc) win a community vote and become policy? I agree that the pressure for an admin who has shown to have reasonably and fairly lost the communites trust to 'step down' will be much stronger with the CdA process being part of Wikipedia (right now such a pressure would mean nothing to a defiant admin), but I just can't imagine most admin voting for such a proposal. Maybe I do lack AGF. Or perhaps it's just expeience. I also worry that the 'failure' of this RfA (even with good feedback) will fail to lead anywhere positive. One thing I do strongly feel - whether CdA gets in the Top-page Watchlist or not could make a hell of a difference to the outcome, as typically it is mainly only admin who get to hear about these kind of 'events'. Matt Lewis (talk) 17:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
In the mean time, the actual language at this point in time, after MacDui's edit, is now:
- Thus, for an Administrator to be de-sysopped, a Bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether both a minimum of 50 editors and a general consensus support de-sysopping. Consensus is sometimes difficult to ascertain and is not a numerical measurement, but as a general descriptive rule of thumb most of those above 80% support for de-sysopping are passed; most of those below 65% fail, and the area between is subject to Bureaucratic discretion.
Speaking only for myself, that works for me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- 65% is good for the baseline, and I think was a developed 'consensus'. I could live with 80% for the threshold (as I could with 85, 90 and none), but I think the 'compromised' consensus was closer to 85%, which will cause us problems. 90% and 100% (when combined) actually outpolled 80% by two votes to one (2:1). I can't see how we can ignore that, and those 90 and 100 voters could seriously exercise their right to complain. Going with 65% and 85% is essentially an adjustment of 5% each way on the original 70/80, and I think is more likely to fit in with what the 'broader' community (ie including the admin-happy out there) would want to vote for. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- About that 85: skewness risk. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:29, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I can't see the risk. 80% was out-voted 2:1, with 90 and 100 combined. Is using 90% a skewness risk? All the 'mean averages' I have used a the mean of intent, never just a statistical one. Sometimes when there is a direct split in consensus, an in-the-middle compromise is all you can do. I personally think that both 'sides' can accept it too. Perhaps less the 80% people - but what can you do? They were in the minority, that's just the way it is. Given the initial concerns with CDA, I think the poll does reflect reality here too. Yes, if the page is Watchlisted, there could be a huge amount of typical Joe editors who would be happy with 80%, but there would a significant amount of people demanding higher too (as they always have done on this page). And some of them are sure to bring up the discrepancy of going with 80% after the finalisation poll results showed it was not a consensus. I just don't think the RFC can stand that kind of criticim. 85% is at least a compromise that no one can claim is not a 'discovered' consensus. It would be unlikely anyone would spoil their vote over it I feel, as CDA, at the end of the day, is all about trusting the bureaucrats. In almost all cases, 80% would surely see an admin de-sysopped. So why risk not going with 85%?
- In short; I think going with 80% is a risky option, whereas going with 85% is a safe one. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:49, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- OK, let me revise what I said, as I was imprecise in my application of statistics. Skewness risk is what applies to the "lower end", ie, 65% versus 70% and so forth, discussion: you cannot get a meaningful mean from a highly skewed distribution. But here we are actually talking about 80%, 85%, 90%. I should have referred you all to Bimodal distribution#Summary statistics. You will see that the results of Vote 2 were a classic bimodal distribution, and that simply taking a mean, splitting the difference, "can be deceptive", as the page says. People like me who have analyzed scientific numbers professionally cringe when people treat non-normal distributions as though they are simple normal distributions. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:36, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- I meaned people's intent. If you see what I mean. In fact I try not to use mathematical terminology - it doesn't always help. 100% is closer to 90% in intent, and the in-between figure with the 3 sets of votes (80,90,100) taken into account was, if I remember correctly, around the the mid-late 80's. So I can see a genuine 'compromise consensus' at 85%. I can see no consensus at all for 80% as there clearly is none. So we do not have a clear consensus, alas, although we could have a developed one - but only with a lot more discussion.
- OK, let me revise what I said, as I was imprecise in my application of statistics. Skewness risk is what applies to the "lower end", ie, 65% versus 70% and so forth, discussion: you cannot get a meaningful mean from a highly skewed distribution. But here we are actually talking about 80%, 85%, 90%. I should have referred you all to Bimodal distribution#Summary statistics. You will see that the results of Vote 2 were a classic bimodal distribution, and that simply taking a mean, splitting the difference, "can be deceptive", as the page says. People like me who have analyzed scientific numbers professionally cringe when people treat non-normal distributions as though they are simple normal distributions. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:36, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- In short; I think going with 80% is a risky option, whereas going with 85% is a safe one. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:49, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- In many ways I could accept 80% myself, but I can't see consensus for it, and hence would rather the option with the least risk at the community poll (both in the criticism it will likely incur, and the votes). And, to be honest, I'd like to try and do the 'honest' thing too - always a good fallback when in doubt. Granted, 80% (not 85) was part of proposal 5.4. But proposal 5.4 was only the small poll that turned out to have more 'support' votes than any of the other small polls. Many did not like the polls. To 'set in stone' what was hardly a resounding consensus was strongly objected to, so we had to explore further, and in doing so things changed. 85% is a compromise consensus rather than a clear one, but it really does stand out. Can you live with it? Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Whether or not you try not to use math terminology, the fact remains that there are right and wrong ways of interpreting the results, and splitting the difference is the wrong way in this instance. I've already explained why it's wrong: (1) the question was worded misleadingly, so people were answering a hypothetical that is not true; (2) there were divergent and contradictory reasons why people who !voted 90% did so, with some, indeed, wanting the threshold to be higher, but others signaling that what it said in the question, that the upper number would be an automatic trigger that would trump Bureaucrat discretion, was objectionable; (3) with this indeed being a bimodal distribution, there is no logic behind saying that those who !voted for either "mode" would necessarily be happy with 85%, and HappyMelon was right to say earlier that polls can show us problems, but they do not necessarily show us the solution, so we shouldn't interpret them naively; and (4) I'll add now that you've been raising this issue for several days now, and not one editor has emerged to agree with you, whereas all of us who have been involved in the discussion have explicitly disagreed with you. You pushed for the poll and you're pushing for an interpretation of the poll that others of us reject. And I, myself, still do reject it. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:59, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- In many ways I could accept 80% myself, but I can't see consensus for it, and hence would rather the option with the least risk at the community poll (both in the criticism it will likely incur, and the votes). And, to be honest, I'd like to try and do the 'honest' thing too - always a good fallback when in doubt. Granted, 80% (not 85) was part of proposal 5.4. But proposal 5.4 was only the small poll that turned out to have more 'support' votes than any of the other small polls. Many did not like the polls. To 'set in stone' what was hardly a resounding consensus was strongly objected to, so we had to explore further, and in doing so things changed. 85% is a compromise consensus rather than a clear one, but it really does stand out. Can you live with it? Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Who other than you disagrees with replacing 80 with 85%? You are the only one who keeps shouting down 85%, and your voting comment was "anything above 80% is unacceptable to me" makes you a little WP:COI, whereas I am genuinely 'in the middle' on it. And you really shouldn't keep calling me "naive" because I don't accept your interpretation of the votes.
- Even with the factors you raise above, 85% is still the average of a clearly 'split' consensus between 80%, and the 90%-100% range: ie between those who want a lower threshold, and those who want a higher one (or have none at all). So your confused-voter points (1) and (2) are not enough to change things, and you point (3) is just one of those things: We can't just stay with 80% because it cannot be 'proved' that 85% would make the 90% and 100% people happy! Surely every one of them would be happier with it than 80%! Some of the 80% people would be unhappy, granted - but would they all be as unhappy as you are about this?
- When it comes to post-poll opinion, as far as I remember we have; 2 for 85% (me and Sswonk), 1 expressly against it (you), and 1 neutral (NJA sees it as a bureaucrat decision - which leans towards 85 in my view). Not a great deal to work on. I think MacDui just said 85% is "not without merit" (another neutral perhaps).
- The risks of running with 80% without having consensus for it are clear. So what are the risks of running with 85%? I can't see any, and it allays critism from both sides, as good compromises always do. CDA is supposed to be all about the bureaucrats decision anyway - so why is this such a big deal? Is this about not trusting the crats? Because they are fundamental to all of this. Matt Lewis (talk) 01:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- You have obviously not convinced me, and I am also not convinced that you are accurately representing what some others have said. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Unless you can show me otherwise, MacDui and NJA did not commit either way - though neither discounted it. I keep mentioning 85% and no one steps in and objects other than you. But of course without actual input we just don't know. Matt Lewis (talk) 02:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- My choice was 90% (if I recall correctly), therefore I'm content with 85%. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- We forgot Dank - he voted for, and argued for 85% Matt Lewis (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- My choice was 90% (if I recall correctly), therefore I'm content with 85%. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Unless you can show me otherwise, MacDui and NJA did not commit either way - though neither discounted it. I keep mentioning 85% and no one steps in and objects other than you. But of course without actual input we just don't know. Matt Lewis (talk) 02:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- You have obviously not convinced me, and I am also not convinced that you are accurately representing what some others have said. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- The risks of running with 80% without having consensus for it are clear. So what are the risks of running with 85%? I can't see any, and it allays critism from both sides, as good compromises always do. CDA is supposed to be all about the bureaucrats decision anyway - so why is this such a big deal? Is this about not trusting the crats? Because they are fundamental to all of this. Matt Lewis (talk) 01:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the page history, I see only a few names working on this page in the past three days. Here is a summary of what I can determine these editors have to say about this "auto desysop" recommendation threshold:
Ben MacDui 80%; Tryptofish 80%; Matt Lewis 85%; Kim Bruning (indeterminate); Good Day 85% (originally 90); Sswonk 85% (80 OK); Jehochman 100% (none, to simplify); TenOfAllTrades (indeterminate).
Without complex mathematics, I would say that of those where a preference has been given in the past few days and who are working on this now, a low number of 85% should be an attainable consensus, with language constructed in the CDA to point to this as merely a "rule of thumb" or "ballpark" figure for a recommendation to arbs of auto-desysop. If someone closing a CDA discussion, in a well-reasoned manner such as those offered at highly controversial, closely !voted AfDs, can show through argument that the best CDA arguments support a lower raw percentage, that can be stated by the closer as the CDA is sent to arbs. Argument and reason will be taken into account as they are in any controversial community discussion with !voting. Why else do we put the "!" in front of "votes" when talking about them? It indicates that raw percentages are generally viewed by the community with skepticism. So, can't we today, Saturday, conclude with this part of the debate with a figure of 85% as a number? I guess I must be speaking to Ben and Trypto, since they are still not sure about 85, and I understand that many of the people who voted but are not participating in this final discussion would like to see a lower number. In seriousness, I think that if a sysop is at even 70% disapproval, and good arguments are made to conclude that further service by that admin would damage the confidence of the community in our processes, ArbCom will do the right thing and tell a steward to turn off the bit. So stonewalling and not compromising over the 80-85 numbers to me seems to be not worth a lot more time. I think going with either number, with a personal preference for 85%, and doing so today, is the best step we can take to conclude this phase and move forward. How about that? Sswonk (talk) 17:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Also, the alternative "None" has been argued effectively by Jehochman, but I think that would be viewed as ignoring several months work. None, as a common sense simplification, is reasonable but I don't think it is a consensus number based on the months of discussion and the recent VOTE 2, so therefor I don't think it should be debated or considered as a reasonable final result of this topic, despite the arguments Jehochman or others can make or has made. I think a "guideline" of 85% should be an attainable consensus among those of us who are left debating this today. Sswonk (talk) 17:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Please look at the actual language. It already has language indicating that, whatever the number, it is only a guideline and not an automatic trigger. Please, let's discuss what is actually on the table, not misconceptions arising from earlier misconceptions. I'd be fine with putting the word "approximately" before both of the percentage numbers. But, for the reasons I've already stated multiple times, I'm still for 80%. Please note that the analysis just above could just as well be taken as Ben MacDui 80%, Tryptofish 80%, Matt Lewis 85%, Good Day 85% (but out of objections to hampering Bureaucrat discretion), Sswonk OK with either, and other editors expressing various forms of opposition to the proposal no matter what the number. That parallels very closely the Vote 2 results. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- FWIW, it's GoodDay & not Good Day gentlemen. GoodDay (talk) 21:07, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- I was reiterating the language for the sake of summary, not asking for a change. I know it is intended to be open to interpretation. My question or plea, I imagine it is looking more like a request, is: if it is the case that the number can be viewed as a component rather than as a single defining "make or break" value whereby ArbCom must act, why is a difference of 5% such a deal breaker here on this draft discussion page? I know you have repeatedly stated your opinion. Can you now respond to that specific question, I would appreciate knowing what ultimately is the 5% difference doing to stop you from acquiescence to 85? Sswonk (talk) 21:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- It's hard for me to answer that question, the way that it is worded. I could just as well ask you why the 5% would prevent you from acquiescing to 80%. My reasons for feeling strongly are the reasons I stated previously. It's not like there is some new reason for this question. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- P.S.: It's a Bureaucrat, not ArbCom. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- I am looking for a one sentence answer, not several paragraphs of what you have written about methods of determining consensus from poll results. It should not be that difficult, and I have already stated (in less than a sentence, twice) a willingness to acquiesce to 80, so to muse about turning the question back on me was frivolous. Repeating the question in a single sentence: Given that the threshold percentage for auto-desysop is a guideline only and not a "make-or-break" number, why is a difference of 5% significant enough for you to withhold agreement to wording that sets that figure at 85%? Sswonk (talk) 01:50, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- Change of request: rather than bothering to answer that question, please see the new subsection to this topic I have added below, entitled "Rational fractions rather than percentages". Sswonk (talk) 07:28, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- Please look at the actual language. It already has language indicating that, whatever the number, it is only a guideline and not an automatic trigger. Please, let's discuss what is actually on the table, not misconceptions arising from earlier misconceptions. I'd be fine with putting the word "approximately" before both of the percentage numbers. But, for the reasons I've already stated multiple times, I'm still for 80%. Please note that the analysis just above could just as well be taken as Ben MacDui 80%, Tryptofish 80%, Matt Lewis 85%, Good Day 85% (but out of objections to hampering Bureaucrat discretion), Sswonk OK with either, and other editors expressing various forms of opposition to the proposal no matter what the number. That parallels very closely the Vote 2 results. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
There are 2 clear risks with using 80% after the poll showed it didn't have consensus;
1) It could (or will) leave the CDA seriously open to criticism for ignoring a clear consensus.
2) It could (or will) justifiably upset all the 90% and 100% voters (who voted 2:1 against 80%), who could actually reflect the wider wishes of the community.
The gamble with sticking with 80% (let's be honest) is guessing that the community in general would be happier with 80. But why gamble at all? There is no risk at all with adjusting to 85%, so we should just do it and be done with it. We can't adjust to VOTE 1 (ie 65%) and not adjust to VOTE 2 at all. Given the results of the poll, I can't imaging anyone reverting an update to 85%.
And yes, this 5.4-based version of CDA is supposed to be all about trusting the Crats, and they will surely be looking to de-sysop an admin that has only 20% of the voters' support. So the exact figure is not so much of a big deal - except if we open the proposal to easy criticism at the community RFC. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:15, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Matt Lewis (talk) 23:15, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Rational fractions rather than percentages
Not being a statistician, I am not sure if that is the best title. But, I am suggesting with the blockquoted revision below that rather than use percentage figures for threshold values, we shift to two easier to envision fractions as guideline numbers: two-thirds for failure of CDA and five-sixths for confirmation of CDA. Just try it out, the prose is the same except for those slightly different but essentially similar numbers:
The point of the process is determining the consensus of the Community at large. For an Administrator to have the sysop right removed, a Bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether both a minimum of 50 editors and a general consensus supporting the removal has taken place. Consensus can be difficult to ascertain, and it is not a numerical measurement. As a general descriptive rule of thumb, most of those above five-sixths (83.3%) support for removal are passed, while most of those below two-thirds (66.7%) fail, and the area in between is subject to Bureaucratic discretion.
I am trying this in good faith, shifting the focus to numbers close to 65/85 that are quickly envisioned in the mind. The hope is that it will be enough to finish this portion of the pre-RFC tweaking so further steps toward completion can be dealt with. Sswonk (talk) 07:28, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- First, let me make clear, with respect to what you said before making this suggestion, that I think I have the right to stand by the very careful answers I already gave. It's very difficult for me to reply to a demand that I reduce my answer to one sentence. I infer that you wanted to imply that I am being inflexible, but I reject that characterization of me.
- Now, I have a question. What is the rationale behind five-sixths (83.3%), as opposed to eighty-five one-hundredths (85%) or four-fifths (80%)? I'm trying to picture a Bureaucrat dealing with an actual case, and having to think: "hmm, is this 83.2% or 83.4%?" By the time we get to that decimal point, we are undermining what I'm sure is the actual intent: to get away from the constraints of rigid numbers.
- Let me reiterate, yet again, my thinking. From where I sit, it feels like I make careful, detailed arguments, then others say "let's just split the difference", then I explain carefully how splitting the difference can lead to unintended bad results, and then others just keep saying "let's just split the difference". Please read bimodal distribution. Normally, as at RfA, when Bureaucrats are asked to make determinations of consensus, they are given a 10-point percentage spread (70%-80% at RfA). If we end up deciding on 65%-80%, that's already 15 points, which goes to 20 if we instead choose 65%-85%. At some point, that stops being useful. Remember, these numbers refer to the "count" after the Crat has already discounted all the invalid !votes and inadequately-justified !votes. After all that, if there is still 81% of the community saying they want to de-sysop, how likely is it that the decision would be that we needed a few more percent to achieve consensus? This discussion has lost track of how consensus is really determined.
- The claim keeps coming up that Vote 2 indicated that we need to go to some number like 85 or 83.3 in order for the proposal to be accepted by the community. Not true. The Vote 2 !vote was about equally split between 80%, 90%, and various forms of none-of-the-above, and that was in response to a misleading question that implied that the number would be a rigid constraint. Some of the none-of-the-above !voters will oppose the proposal no matter what, while others just wanted to register disapproval of the (fictional) rigid constraint. Of the 90% !voters, some will oppose the proposal no matter what. Some will support the proposal no matter whether we have 80%, 85%, or something between 80 and 85. The question, then, becomes how many !votes at RfC will we net gain if we go with 85% over 80%, or 83.3% over 80%? I think a careful, intelligent reading of the results indicates that it will be extremely few, and, likewise, extremely few that we will lose if we go with 80%, that we would have gotten if we had only gone with 83.3% or 85%. In my opinion, editors who insist on taking a mean of a bimodal distribution, instead of engaging with what I just said, are the ones who are being inflexible.
- So, that said, what am I actually recommending? This:
The point of the process is determining the consensus of the Community at large. For an Administrator to have the sysop right removed, a Bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether both a minimum of 50 editors and a general consensus supporting the removal has taken place. Consensus can be difficult to ascertain, and it is not a numerical measurement. As a general descriptive rule of thumb, most of those above approximately 80% support for removal are passed, while most of those below approximately 65% fail, and the area in between is subject to Bureaucratic discretion.
- I had previously suggested inserting "approximately" into the language directly before each number, but MacDui reverted me on that. I think this language may more truly represent community consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- Reading through VOTE 2 again, it seems clear to me that nearly all the 19 people who voted "none" meant it in the sense of 100% (ie - leave it to the Bureaucrats). It was also the only second-place vote used, with 4 people using it after giving 90% as a first choice. I personally think that 100% is much closer in intent to 90% than to the lower 80%. 90% isn't necessarily being 'punitive' to the proposers - it is partly a 'no harm done' broadening of the safety/consensus zone, ie why not make it high, or have 'none'?
- The top threshold percentage (whether 80%, 85% or whatever) is actually so high, that the important figure is surely the baseline one, where the consensus starts. We all agree that most 80%'s will likely be de-sysoped. My personal ideal is to have a low baseline and simply leave things to the Crats. We are supposed to believe in consensus after all. For me it is simple - it's more of a risk to stick with 80%, than it is to try and catch more voters.
- If people actually want CDA, I think we (almost) have a proposal they will vote for - whether the consensus threshold is 80, 83.x or 85. But in terms of 'floating voters', it's always better to be more conservative if you can, I think - another reason for moving towards 90%. The amount of 90% voters in the finalisation poll surprised me (there were 24 at '90%', 25 at '80%' and 19 at 'none' - with 4 second-choices, all of 'none'), and in my mind I just can't ignore them. They could represent more of the wider community than we might think. I urge people to read them again. You could even make quite a sold argument for making the threshold 90%, 85 being too low.
- By the way, Dank voted for 85% and made a talk page argument for it here - so we should add him to the current 'consensus' figures (it was in the back of my mind at the time to do this). Matt Lewis (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- At this point, I've said all I can think of to say. I think that I have completely refuted what you say, but, obviously, I have not convinced you, and you have not convinced me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- By the way, Dank voted for 85% and made a talk page argument for it here - so we should add him to the current 'consensus' figures (it was in the back of my mind at the time to do this). Matt Lewis (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Regarding reading bimodal distribution, I did and also previously read your Tryptofish's earlier writing on the deceptions inherent. IANAS! again, but I think given the questions asked at the poll, !votes from people who oppose overall and the low sample size, if I were a statistician I would throw the poll (VOTE 2) to the wind. It is fairly characterized as flawed. My point is that, since were are speaking in terms of generalities, guidelines, rule-of-thumb, and so on, then using a hard percentage figure is being more inflexible than is needed, despite the wording of the paragraph in question. I am suggesting, through simplification of the language, we stop saying (colloquially) "the votes should be counted, then in general be either above X exact number to pass or below Y exact number to fail." Instead, more in the spirit of offering a general approximation, we use very simple, easy to understand common fractions. I will even reduce it to a simple ratio, using T's above blockquoted text but with the numbers for two-thirds and five-sixths given as a ratio:
The point of the process is determining the consensus of the Community at large. For an Administrator to have the sysop right removed, a Bureaucrat will review the discussion to see whether both a minimum of 50 editors and a general consensus supporting the removal has taken place. Consensus can be difficult to ascertain, and it is not a numerical measurement. As a general descriptive rule of thumb, most of those above approximately 5:1 support for removal are passed, while most of those below approximately 2:1 fail, and the area in between is subject to Bureaucratic discretion.
The change I am suggesting is an effort to show that, without being excruciatingly fine about how we interpret a flawed poll, we can come to figures that both come close to approximating both views (Matt and Tryptofish) of what VOTE 2 meant and also be true to the spirit of allowing discretion. Substitute 4:1 for 5:1 above, you have 80%. There is not convenient ratio for 65%, it is 13:7 which, of course, would be viewed as entirely too fine. Can you see that what I am trying to do is remove rigidity from the overall tone of the sentence, rather than have the contrast of flexibility ("As a general descriptive rule of thumb...") with rigidity ("above 80%"..."below 65%") within the same sentence?
What I am looking toward is the publication of the CDA after it passes the RFC. There, using the best, clearest language we can come up with will strengthen the meaning of the words. I am afraid too much time is being spent here worrying about how to please voters in the RFC, and not enough on the actual spirit of the living document when it passes. Imaging trying to explain what the numbers mean to a new friend you just met in a pub. In the simplest layman's terms, you tell the new friend "Most of the time, if the guy gets voted against five to one, he's out. But if the ones who want him out can't get two to one votes against him, he stays. But, the judge also listens to the arguments and sometimes it's his call either way." Try explaining it a different way, involving polls and bimodal distributions and ... wait, you've lost him. He represents the busy editors and bureaucrats who will be using the document as a guide, that is who we need to guide with truly meaningful language, not each other here.
So, the spread between 2:1 and 5:1 is in decimal notation (83.3 - 66.7 = 16.6), and between 2:1 and 4:1 is (80.0 - 66.7 = 13.3). Neither of those spreads is 20%, and both to me are close enough to Tryptofish's 15% spread maximum, as approximate, "descriptive rule of thumb" numbers, to be effective once CDA is actually in place. Enough people did show a preference for "None" that I am keeping 5:1 as my first choice.
I know not every person in the world is reasonable, so some future sysop might fight tooth and nail to stay on even if over 2:1 editors think he shouldn't. But I think there is a benefit to having these fine officeholders realize that, if two out of every three people are against their service, they should start looking for something else to do on Wikipedia. And, as clearly as I can state it, I think having simple, everyday numbers like "two-to-one" in mind will help keep potential future candidates for CDA from making two many enemies. Is another week going to pass without resolution of this simple dilemma? I am seeking to have everyone look at the figures as the are purported to be in the opening of the sentence: a "general descriptive rule of thumb". This continued discussion of polling, analysis and tug-of-war over exact percentages says to me that the words are meant to be less general than the reader is led to believe. I think final passage will be assisted by leaving out exact numbers and instead giving simple ratios, preceded by the word approximately as in the latest suggested revision I posted above. Sswonk (talk) 22:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Concern about the "good standing" definition
Following up on my comments above (q.v.) regarding my concern about the provision that to be "in good standing" to sign a recall petition, a user would be required not to be under an ArbCom sanction. From my perspective as an arbitrator, this is not a desirable definition and could interfere with the arbitration process, as follows:
1. When ArbCom imposes a sanction (or when our predecessors did), we do so for the purpose of addressing a specific problematic behavior the editor in question is engaging in. Except in cases where we ban someone completely, we are not purporting to evaluate editors' overall value to Wikipedia. We have no mandate to divide the universe of editors into two categories, one in good standing and one not, and our remedies and sanctions are not crafted with this sort of distinction in mind.
2. It is not clear what "under an arbcom sanction" actually means. If a user is topic-banned from a given topic or put under a revert restriction or a civility restriction, presumably that's a sanction. What if we "admonish" or "warn" or "remind" a user to abide by policy? Is that a sanction? If so, for how long is it considered in effect? We sometimes impose a topic-ban or 1RR for a finite time period, but no one is ever "admonished for one year." So ironically, the least severe sanctions would be the ones that would affect a user's "good standing" forever. Similarly, is an administrator who is instructed not to use the tools in a particular topic area or against a particular user under a "sanction"? He or she still has more access and could be considered more trusted than another user who is not an administrator at all....
3. As the question of who is or is not "in good standing" comes to a head, the ArbCom would start to receive requests to vacate sanctions imposed long ago, which otherwise are not causing any problems. Suppose that in 2006, an editor was editing problematically on Topic X and as a result we banned him or her from Topic X. The editor has come to accept that he is too emotionally involved in Topic X, and now edits without any problems on Topics Y and Z. We would now be faced with a request by that editor to lift the topic ban, not because he or she wants to edit on X again, but simply to avoid the "bad standing" taint—particularly, when someone inevitably starts to compile "Wikipedia:List of users considered not in good standing." The result could be the continued re-airing of otherwise long-forgotten grievances.
I could go on in this vein, but I think I've illustrated my main concerns. If this proposal goes forward at all (which personally I do not favor, see above), I think the "good standing" definition should be modified to address these thoughts. Thanks for your consideration. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for providing that insight. That's exactly the kind of feedback that is very helpful in improving this proposal. First, here is the current wording (which can be found here) of the passage in question, referring to the requirements for the ten editors making a nomination for CDA:
- may not be subject to Arbitration enforcement editing restrictions, Arbitration Committee restrictions, or Community restrictions, including, but not limited to, topic bans, project bans, and paroles without the permission of the Arbitration Committee or another person or group empowered to lift those restrictions.
- And here is the current language referring to who may !vote in the process, after the nomination is certified:
- Anyone may participate in the discussion.
- Civil, relevant, discussion, based upon our policies and guidelines, is welcome from any editor in the community, whether with or without an account. However, disruptive comments, and contributions by sockpuppets, banned users, or blocked users (unless blocked by the administrator being reviewed and when the CDA is materially related to that block) are not permitted and will be stricken.
- Thus, I don't really think it is the case that the current draft of the proposal says that persons "under ArbCom sanctions" are in any way prevented from signing the eventual !vote, only the initial nomination. I've had the sense that the community really does want to make it difficult for someone who is "just getting back" at an administrator to be able to make a nomination, and the language in the first passage only restricts persons who would be among the ten nominators, while it does nothing to prevent such a person from !voting on a nomination once it is certified. In that regard, one perspective might be that it's not that harsh a constraint, simply to be unable to nominate an administrator, while still being able to try to convince an editor "in good standing" to do so. On the other hand, maybe this language (in the first passage) does not make sense in its present form, for the reasons indicated. Should some words be added to the passage above, to restrict the ArbCom-related language to apply only to ArbCom actions that would create a COI for that particular editor with respect to the nomination? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Certainly, any editor-in-question who's had a difficult past with a particular administrator, that editor most be barred from 'voting' in a recall of that administrator. GoodDay (talk) 19:15, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting a change in wording? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- If that's required, yes. GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- It's not required, and it will break CdA into tiny peices if we go this way. We have 8 often-stringent safeguards already (See the FAQ). I've answered this below where you raised it again. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- If that's required, yes. GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting a change in wording? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Certainly, any editor-in-question who's had a difficult past with a particular administrator, that editor most be barred from 'voting' in a recall of that administrator. GoodDay (talk) 19:15, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Another thought occurs to me. The "editor in good standing" wording comes from the original draft by Uncle G. NYB's comment makes me wonder whether it can create a misimpression. The intention is that it only means "in good standing for the purposes of the CDA process", not that it is some kind of global classification of Wikipedia editors into good and bad categories. Is that intention unclear? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm assuming it means, editors with little or no 'block' history
(including editors who's block's' were successfully appealed). Even editors whose blocks were successfully appealed, might still have a grudge against an adiministrator. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)- The current language is here. If there are going to be wording changes, now is the time to propose them. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:04, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm assuming it means, editors with little or no 'block' history
- What is the "difficult past" (ie the "bad standing")? Editors who have been previously blocked by the admin under CdA? There are 8 effective safeguards in the CdA process to guard against the wrong outcome, some of them really stringent. The huge benefit of that is that anyone can open a CdA (with 9 other people, etc etc etc). If we mess with that now, we will create something so select it it will be worthless in my opinion. And wayward admin could be tempted to 'tarnish' people in order to prevent a CdA against them happening. I presented a number of reasons on the CDA page on this subject, and will move them below with my next edit.
- In my view, the words "Good standing" simply refer to the highly-stringent 'editor of 3 months and 500 edits' clause (ie editors who have proved themselves not to be typical single-purpose sockpuppets etc). We cannot add an extra punishment to people already judged - they have already had 'fair' terms set out: CdA cannot and should not mess with that. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- The necessity of 10 CDA nominators is sufficient for me. GoodDay (talk) 20:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, 10 editors of 3 months is more than enough. The 50 support voters (reaching a 65%-ish baseline percantage of the overall vote) is the main deciding matter. But why agree to Elonka's stringent additions below if you think 10 editors is sufficient? Matt Lewis (talk) 20:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- The necessity of 10 CDA nominators is sufficient for me. GoodDay (talk) 20:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- In my view, the words "Good standing" simply refer to the highly-stringent 'editor of 3 months and 500 edits' clause (ie editors who have proved themselves not to be typical single-purpose sockpuppets etc). We cannot add an extra punishment to people already judged - they have already had 'fair' terms set out: CdA cannot and should not mess with that. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
(the following 3 comments have been moved here from Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship)
For the definition of editors in "Good standing", I would recommend adding the following elements:
- No de-sysopped admins
- No record of abusive sockpuppetry
- No admin-issued warnings for harassment
- No (unoverturned) blocks within the last year
Thoughts? --Elonka 22:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
- Sometimes blocks (like 1RR for example) are actually quite hard to 'navigate' around in certain areas of Wikipedia - if you are are a content-keen editor anyway. This is especially true in places where admin themselves are 'involved', and in some matters of course it is well-nigh impossible not to be - although many admin are content editors too, which causes no end of problems when POV issues arise. If an admin suspected he might be put up for a CDA, then he/she could find a way to block that person. In some cases, this could be achieved fairly easily, if the worried admin is fortunate enough. We have to think of worse-case scenarios here, and these thing can be done. More likely though: blocking Admin could end up being routinely accused of "avoiding CDA" after certain blocks, as it would be an easy accusation to make. Hiding behind the scorn placed on this would be a certain amount of cases where the accusation is true.
- I think I may have told you my own feelings on the way I feel blocks can be prepared by some admin (or 'laid up') with the intention of eventually removing problematic editors. A number of admin seem to build on each futher block they give (or spot that others have given), in a way in which no other legal system in the civilised world would allow. For some editors, after a point blocks simply lose their potency on certain editors: having worked on the 'troubles' I know you will have seen that happen.
- Also, it could be argued that not being able to contribute to opening a CDA is like a further punishment for whatever the block was for. Is that fair? Blocks are supposed to be the punishment - and they are quite upsetting for most people (those who have not been in-sensitised to them in some way). Most people do not intend to get another, whether another happens or not. This issue of 'forgiveness' (or simply just punishment paid) probably should go for de-sysoped admin too. I read somewhere that 'forgiveness' was supposed to be a tenet of Wikipedia.
- Excluding people with a warning for 'harassment' could be too ambiguous - and I would to stretch that to a block, simply because (so sadly) some admin simply block too easily, and not everyone appeals - some just take a break in disgust. That different way different admin block (or don't block) really makes having too many 'exclusion' rules like this problematic. We do have all those other safeguards however!
- I do think, though, that we should draw a select list of specific blocks being in the exclusion list - and sockpuppetry for a few months could perhaps be a good one. I'm no fan of sock users at all (it's just plain cheating), but it is surprising the amount of reformed ones there are around. Again - we have the problem of the 'crime' being already paid for, and the possibiliy (however remote) of vulnerability and unfairness arousing from being excluded from opening a CDA.
- A side effect of being excluded could be for editors to just go looking for others to place an opeining vote for them. And who could blame them, if they really felt it had to be done?
- Much has been said about admin having "bad days" and not deserving to be strung up for it (and CDA asfeguards should prevent that), but what about editors losing their temper perhaps, and occurring a block? Should they then have further exclusions to their wiki life? Matt Lewis (talk) 23:51, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Another option would be to define the "spirit" of good standing, and then let bureaucrats exercise their famed discretion as to whether or not that standard has been met. Explicit conditions are likely to be a turn-off to editors who perceive CDA to be needlessly bureaucratic[sic], and may encourage gaming and a lawyering mentality. Just a thought, and I am happy to go along with conditions if that's what we decide. Skomorokh 21:06, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- This proposal ("editors in good standing") is an invitation to endless wikilawyering. It is going to be rejected. A better substitute would be to rely on our existing RFC process which already spells out who can participate and how. Bureaucrats are clueful enough to discount the votes of grudgemongers, haters, and troublemakers. Jehochman Brrr 21:24, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm happy to remove the words "in good standing". We have plenty of other safeguards. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:52, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
It looks to me like some of this discussion is arguing over "changing" wording that actually is not even there. Please see what the proposal actually says, and focus on suggesting better wording, everyone. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- What words are you alluding to? "in good standing" is in there 4 times, though I'll have a go at removing it now. People can revert if they really want too. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:24, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- What wording were you (collectively) alluding to? That was my point. Actually, I have no problem with "good standing". I was raising the question to see if it were an issue, and so far I'm not convinced that it is. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Making the change
OK, I made some changes to the CDA proposal, addressing the above comments (diff here). A lot of what I did in the edit was cosmetic (I've tried to make it more readable), but I've also;
1) Removed all occurances of "in good standing".
2) Softened all the safeguards surrounding arb sanctions etc (per NYBrad above). I'm not sure we need to say much at all, but the new parag I'm proposing (and actually placed in) is this:
"An Arbitration member or Bureaucrat may withdraw the validity of an editor, or editors, who are considered to be potentially unreliable nominees. This is generally done in extreme cases only, and usually when the nomination has been submitted. One full day is to be allowed for any replacement(s) to be found."
Matt Lewis (talk) 02:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- I just noticed something, and I am not sure if it isn't a "separated by a common language" issue. In my American English vocabulary, the "nominee" is the person being nominated, thus a given questionable sysop (a candidate for desysopping?) would be the nominee. The 10 editors would be the "nominators". Has this been discussed, I'm not clear on why the word "nominee" is used in that way? Sswonk (talk) 16:06, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- Good spot. It was my mistake, and it's passed a few of by. I've changed to nominator. Matt Lewis (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- To Matt: I agree with you that we need to take the time to incorporate changes in wording in response to what Brad said. But I'm not sure that I agree with you about the specifics, and we need to look carefully and thoughtfully at the huge flood of edits to the proposal page that just happened in the past twelve hours.
- Please do so - this is how it has to work now, as we need to get edits down and then work at them. Matt Lewis (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- To Sswonk: Unless I'm missing something, yes, the language (unless it just got messed up in the last few hours!) does use "nominee" to refer to the administrator and "nominators" to refer to the ten editors making the nominations. (If it's been messed up, that will need to be repaired.)
- To Ben MacDui: Although I'm very sympathetic to the argument that further delay just means more of the counter-productive fiddling that is breaking out, I think that, for exactly these reasons, let's proceed carefully, no rush. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:48, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Recent edits have taken things forward, and have cleared up, brought to light, and in places resolved various issues. We have a clearer CDA to all edit now too. Let's all try not to be so delicate, we are not too far off now! Matt Lewis (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The final stages (summary of poll results)
I have now added a summary of the poll results at Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/Pre RfC Summaries#Results of Community de-Adminship 'Proposal Finalization' Poll. It is a combination of my original analysis and Tryptofish's detailed results for Votes 1 and 2 (somewhat simplified), which I can reconcile with my own +/- one !vote here or there. If there are queries I suggest discussing this subject there rather than here. Ben MacDui 20:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- We have to add the second-choice figure list. I'll also present the second-choices in a table, next to their corresonding first choices, so we can see the direction in people's minds. Like you pointed out, they kind of gravitate to the mid sixties from both extremes. The point of polling second choice was to add this extra dimension, so we need to present it to some degree. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:23, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I don't beleive there is any need for that at all - it conveys very little information and it is linked back here if anyone is curious. Ben MacDui 20:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't agree - but don't worry, I'll do it. It's only a simple list and table and won't it won't harm anything. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- See also skewness risk for why I say it's bogus to report means. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I have - but I can't see why we have to avoid anything. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- See also skewness risk for why I say it's bogus to report means. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't agree - but don't worry, I'll do it. It's only a simple list and table and won't it won't harm anything. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I don't beleive there is any need for that at all - it conveys very little information and it is linked back here if anyone is curious. Ben MacDui 20:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
I have now added the proposed wording of the description of consensus as per the above to the Guide. If there are queries I suggest discussing this subject there rather than here. I have also removed the link back to this page that existed there.
There seems a weariness here for reasons that are quite understandable. I have a few more things on the to do list, but in all candour I think the work of this page is done now. I make no specific predictions about when the RfC will go live, having been proved wrong before. I do however think it will be soon. Whilst I am sure we will all meet again elsewhere in the near future, I'd like to thank everyone for their patience and (all things considered) their restraint. May the most beneficial outcome for this extraordinary encyclopedic experiment win the day. Ben MacDui 20:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Please remember that the newer people are not so weary. We still have quite a lot to do: 1) decide on the baseline percentage (and the wording of it). 2) update aspects of the original proposal - esp on the "mirror RfA" matter (surely misleading with all these safeguards? (discussion at Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship), and on the quite-serious "editor in good standing" matter.
- It could all be agreed quite quickly of course, but it could also take time. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- There is a big problem here that certain people have come to own the process by attrition. By dragging out the conversation long enough editors with differing views are worn down until they lose interest. This will become apparent when the proposal goes forward, and get shot down by all the people who were excluded from the drafting. Jehochman Brrr 21:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that there has been elements of attrition (which were often unavoidable), but with only a small amount of care at this crucial final stage we can de-fuel those charges (or we can rush to the RfC and super-charge them). Unfortunately, imho, the length of all this could not have been avoided. Therefore we have to put ourselves in the shoes of those who have lost interest, and make sure we are as fair as can be by all (even if that turns out to be just calmly dotting every 'i' before the RfC). Even appearing to rush this is suicidal imo. A couple of people deciding on an 80% threshold for 'auto-desysop' when more people voted for 90%-100% definitely needs further discussion. I'm inclined to accept it - but it just looks so much like railroading against consensus. And in a way, it is. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- As you know, I am certain that this situation was entirely avoidable. --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:44, 28 January 2010 (UTC) If you didn't know, then that's part of the explanation ;-)
- But as who knows though? Us? If you want to open up be my guest.. I'm beginning to think we need some kind of 'state of play' statements form people: What would you like to see done right now? (please try not to be sarcastic). Matt Lewis (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Eh? It's all in the archives, FWIW. And I try to avoid sarcasm online, because sarcasm doesn't carry in text. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- But as who knows though? Us? If you want to open up be my guest.. I'm beginning to think we need some kind of 'state of play' statements form people: What would you like to see done right now? (please try not to be sarcastic). Matt Lewis (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- As you know, I am certain that this situation was entirely avoidable. --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:44, 28 January 2010 (UTC) If you didn't know, then that's part of the explanation ;-)
- I agree that there has been elements of attrition (which were often unavoidable), but with only a small amount of care at this crucial final stage we can de-fuel those charges (or we can rush to the RfC and super-charge them). Unfortunately, imho, the length of all this could not have been avoided. Therefore we have to put ourselves in the shoes of those who have lost interest, and make sure we are as fair as can be by all (even if that turns out to be just calmly dotting every 'i' before the RfC). Even appearing to rush this is suicidal imo. A couple of people deciding on an 80% threshold for 'auto-desysop' when more people voted for 90%-100% definitely needs further discussion. I'm inclined to accept it - but it just looks so much like railroading against consensus. And in a way, it is. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- There is a big problem here that certain people have come to own the process by attrition. By dragging out the conversation long enough editors with differing views are worn down until they lose interest. This will become apparent when the proposal goes forward, and get shot down by all the people who were excluded from the drafting. Jehochman Brrr 21:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I was fully serious about asking various CDA critics "What would you like to see done at this moment in time? (please try not to be sarcastic, or go on about the past)"! Maybe you would repond? I'm afraid the many archives here are pretty meaningless at this stage - people just have to accept that. We need to work from now.
- I asked you "who is us" because I'm tired of being bundled in with this (seriously over-played) 'evil railroad group'. Can't people see this process is just Wikipedia working as it always does? Things eventually happen, so we deal with them. Wikipedia can't stand still - not if the matter proves to be strong enough. And 'Admin Recall' clearly is strong enough. I've been called "you" on this page as if I've made every poll CDA has ever seen! It not just a 'generic you', it is genuinely illogical thinking. Many of the vocal critics of CDA (as a process, or of the so-called 'handling' of it) seem to assume a singular 'machine' is at work against them, while they fail to see their own fault in not doing enough, providing enough, arguing well enough (or at all), or just giving up, or not getting back in (like in in early Jan). Critics should be fighting their cause with arguments, not sarcasm or generalised attacks using a cover-all "you". I notice that you have been complaining that the 'you machine' has not asked you for your opinion. There is no 'you machine' to ask you! I'm moving your "A simple model" section below up to the section on the poll readings. I cannot see anything productive about it at all. You placed a completely abstract (and not short at all) hypthetical poll into the middle of the post-poll debate, and gave the reader nothing at all on how to read it, or what you want from it. That can easily be seen as a sarcastic form of trolling. The finalisation poll happened (and things happen..), so please try and deal with that.
- Regarding sarcasm in general, I've no respect for people who simply stop commenting seriously and turn to it. People like that may as well leave the topic, or go to Wikipedia Review. If people have something to say, I wish they could say it straight, and stick at it for new people like me (and I'm not in a hurry to do anything). What I've seen is a lot of hot air, some rather miserly snippets, but few genuinely informative or constructive comments. It's a very aloof and unhelpful position to taken for people claiming to want what's best. Nothing is set in stone. If people want change, they have to stand up (or stand in line) and call for it. Not butter the behind of the nearest trolling Tom, but be considered, informative and constructive: that way you get attention and respect.
- What are some people actually trying to railroad this? The 'Motion to Close' in December could have been a really constructive thing, instead it was an immensely rude, bad faith and non-constructive (ie destructive) thing to do. I came along at that time and was appalled by it, finding it one of the most cynical and misjudged things I've seen on Wikipedia. If there is any reason for the railroading attitude of a few editors here, it is in no-doubt largely because that dreadful “Let's try and kill this rubbish now” poll genuinely upset them so much. As it happens, I'm really embarrassed by the "Let's just get this through" attitude here sometimes, but when I think of it in the light of that closing poll, I can hardly blame people. The principal proponent for rushing CDA through is the person who helped saved CDA from the 'close it' poll by advertising it to people - I think that says a lot. Whatever form of CDA goes to the community at RfC, I'm not letting anyone criticise it in the non-constructive, non-collaborative and ABF manner I've seen this January, without making a serious comment on them. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:07, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Need to announce
Among the essential final tasks is putting a notice of the RfC at MediaWiki talk:Watchlist-details. We should make sure we agree on the wording. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm happy to make this the last thing we do. It could look like we are running ahead of ourselves if we do it beforehand. Best thing is to work on it offline I think, or in a sandbox. (unless there are specifically important things about it we need to discuss now). Matt Lewis (talk) 22:15, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, I agree with that. I just want to make sure that we don't overlook doing it, since it is so very important. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Concerns about poll format
- I trust that at the adoption vote itself there will be ample space allotted for people who oppose the proposal to present their arguments before the voting sections? In the interest of fairness, objections should not be shuffled off to an archive or subpage, and the proposal's proponents have (and continue to have) ample space to argue their case. Moreover, proponents have full control of the proposal itself, its self-serving FAQ, and this talk page. I wouldn't object to using collapsed sections or the like to limit the screen size of any such text, but the final vote may be the only opportunity that opponents of this proposal get to present their side to the broader community. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- Do we even need that space? Isn't this a forgone conclusion? --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Speaking for myself, and I bet speaking for others, I think that's entirely a good point. I would imagine that there would be a pretty simple RfC page, which should link to the other pages but not have "partisan" content at its top, and then sections for "Support", "Oppose", and "Neutral". I would certainly think that editors in the "Oppose" section should be absolutely free to say anything and everything they want (and even link to other pages as they wish). I cannot imagine that there could be anything like community consensus on the proposal unless all sides are free to discuss what they want. Do other editors agree with that? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, so far you don't have consensus. The reason for this is that no-one has really tried to build a consensus so far; <scratches head> or -well- people tried, but they got shouted down somehow. That's not good. --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:53, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) My point goes more to page structure. Frankly, I'd much rather see an arrangement – as there is at RfA – where the space for comments, questions, and discussion comes before the vote, and not after. It's difficult enough to get people to read discussions before voting even without a vote-first-and-ask-questions-later layout. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- Here, I can only give my personal opinion. On the one hand, I tend to agree with you to the extent that it is very important to be fair to all sides, as I said just above. On the other hand, I note that RfAs actually start with the nomination and so forth, and I would tend to think that the top of the RfC should be, as I said, non-"partisan". There can be a discussion section, yes, and links, certainly, but I'd be uncomfortable with an RfC that opens with a "why you should !vote no" section. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) My point goes more to page structure. Frankly, I'd much rather see an arrangement – as there is at RfA – where the space for comments, questions, and discussion comes before the vote, and not after. It's difficult enough to get people to read discussions before voting even without a vote-first-and-ask-questions-later layout. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- I would be completely agreeable to a format similar to a standard RfA: open with the nomination, in which the proposal's proponents are welcome to make their case in favour of this particular CDA process, followed by questions, followed by general comments, followed (finally) by the votes. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:13, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Since "silence is the weakest form of consensus", I'd better speak up. Where you write, "followed by questions", is that something you can point to an example of, in an RfC rather than RfA form? I ask because while the Questions section is useful and often makes or breaks an RfA, with an RfC it would be akin to asking a document to explain itself, in effect putting the developers of the document (the CDA proposal, of which there are many developers) under a microscope that might bog things down. Wouldn't it be better to have the questions included in the comments section rather than start the entire RfC page with a long list of questions as is done at RfA? Again, an example of this method from a previous RfC would be useful in explaining how it would work. Sswonk (talk) 05:45, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think some of the confusion arises from the terminology in use here — the approval process isn't an RfC in the sense it is usually used on Wikipedia; it just uses some of the same infrastructure. Unlike the usual run of RfC, where the goal actually is to seek comments and reach a consensus, the purpose of the upcoming poll is to reach a yes-or-no binary decision — does CDA become a policy, or not? Unlike an article content RfC, there isn't the option of seeking middle grounds or alternate wordings or different sources. Unlike a user conduct RfC, this poll only has one final statement, which editors can choose to endorse or reject. In that sense, the closest process we have may well be RfA. I've fixed the header on this thread to reflect that this is a 'poll'.
- In simplest form, I envision some sort of space for discussion, followed by some manner of vote. How that 'discussion' section is divided up (if at all) isn't particularly important. If people want to go with a three-category format ('arguments for', 'arguments against', and 'general comments and questions') or just have it all as one big block (no pigeonholes), I'm not bothered either way.
- How the developers and proponents of the proposal wish to handle any questions raised during the poll is up to them. If individuals wish to note (or have noted for them) that their comments represent their own opinions and not necessarily those of all the developers, they can go for it. In practice, my experience at the Wikipedia Reference Desk suggests that questions will first be answered by the fastest typist, not necessarily the wisest or best-informed writer — and this is a challenge endemic to the wiki format. It is a near-certainty, however, that if you get anything like the turnout that would be required to make a credible claim of public approval there will be at least a few editors who do have questions about how CDA works. (Way back in 2004, roughly two hundred editors came out to vote on whether or not admins would be allowed to block editors who violated 3RR — and that was a two-sentence policy revision. I can't imagine having two hundred editors look at this proposal – many of them for the very first time – and not have at least a few want to ask for clarifications.) It's something that the proponents should be aware of and give some thought to, if they haven't already. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:43, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- These are interesting ideas. I think a proper FAQ (which is less of a manifesto, and more of a cover-all 'info sheet') should be able to include any unforeseen RFC's Talk-page questions as they arise. The RFC Intro could read "If you have questions about CDA, ask them in a new section on the talk page" etc, and "they will be promptly answered". All corners should be covered at this stage now, so no real head-scratchers should arise during the RFC. People always "comment:" within the poll itself anyway - it is an RfC after all. And people can always strike and change their vote too (which can be stated in the Intro).
- Do you have anything prepared that you would say at the RFC? I think that this here is the stage right now to bring up all our thoughts. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:31, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, but I've already shared my thoughts about this proposal (and been met with dismissiveness). I'll summarize my concerns during the final vote; everything's in the archives. Frankly, the points I've raised are pretty fundamental, and there's nothing that you're going to be able to paper over with another bikeshed vote. All I'm asking for is a commitment from the proposal's proponents that they won't attempt to separate the comments from the voting page; the community deserves every chance to see all points of view before being asked to vote. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:27, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- The answer I feared you would give, and a fantastic reality check for us all. If anyone is in any doubts about how some people will do whatever they can to bring this proposal down, just look here. Let's make a sold, watertight and professional proposal - and give the committed non-players as little chance as possible to bring it down. The community does not "deserve" that at all.
- You won't find me in those archives TenofAll, although I've actually been working on this proposal now for over 5 weeks. All that time you have refused to contribute reasonably. The community RFC will be full of comments within the poll itself (some after the signature, some on their own) that no one can possibly move - you know that full well. Although I did WP:AGF with you on this at first, I now think this section is a waste of people's time. Paste that up as more "typical dismissiveness" if you like (I'm sure you will). I'm fully expecting a whopper of a 'Comment:' from yourself at the RFC, and I'll be ready with my arms out to catch it. Matt Lewis (talk) 01:05, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Given the profound rudeness you've directed at me in the past (and the continued bad faith you're venting now) I don't see why I should play secretary for you. I can't help it if you can't be bothered to read the archives of the proposal. While I reserve the right to elaborate, rearrange, organize and summarize, I will commit now to not raise any problem which has not been mentioned already in the course of the proposal's development. If pointing out unresolved and serious problems counts as doing 'whatever [I] can to bring this proposal down', then so be it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:33, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) With the caveat, again, that I am only speaking for myself (and Matt speaks only for himself, not for me!), I definitely agree with the broad principle of what you are saying: that proponents need to step back and allow opponents to openly and freely make every and any argument they wish, and to do so in full view of all editors visiting the poll. I'm a little uncomfortable, though, with making preemptive contracts to not "attempt to separate", which could down the road be wikilawyered all over the place. ("Oh, you indented my comment; we agreed before that you couldn't do that!") Certainly, opposing comments should be freely made on the voting page, and no one should want to interfere with that, and there's certainly no cabal planning to somehow censor the opposition. Frankly, no one will "own" the voting page, and editors will end up having to work through issues that arise over things people say, in the usual way, through consensus as the !voting process goes along. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:15, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Fear not; I've had it up to here with wikilawyers, and I don't want to see them playing with the rules any more than you do. We can take it as given there is sufficient common sense at work that no one will object to the removal of vandalism, the repair of indenting, or similar housekeeping. I don't think that bulky comments or back-and-forth belong in the votes sections, and I would encourage editors to confine lengthy remarks (anything more than twenty or thirty words) and extended threaded conversations to a separate discussion section. What I am concerned about – and the intemperate remarks by Matt Lewis here certainly lend weight to my fears – is that a well-meaning but overzealous defender of this proposal will start moving comments off the main page, perhaps onto a Vote/Complaints subpage or similar. I want the vote to be as transparent as possible, so that at the end of the day neither side will be in a position to say that there were dirty tricks, misleading statements, suppression of comments, or other manipulation.
- I don't intend to play 'gotcha' by bringing up any problems which didn't come up before, but I do feel that it is worthwhile to summarize and present the central arguments against this process for the consideration of voters. As Matt Lewis acknowledges, he's been working on this protocol for five weeks but hasn't had time to read all the archives; I don't think the community's going to be able to make an informed decision without at least a cursory introduction to the major issues. I recognize that my natural tendency to loquaciousness could annoy (or be mistakenly perceived as an attempt to drown out others), so I'll even pro-actively enclose any lengthy remarks in archive boxes. The important thing is that there be no attempts by either side to interfere with any editor in good standing's ability to comment. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:59, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Tryptofish - Did you see me disagreeing with anything regarding commenting at the poll? My anger is that TenOfAll yet again refuses to say why he's so pissed off.
- TenOfAll - If you spent one fraction of your quite-hot air on a summary of why you are so upset, you could have actually helped this project. I'm sorry TenofAll - you've been a stone, and have given me no reason for your anger at all. Why should I dig them out of the maze of archives when you are already looming large, and passing some quite damning comments? I went through most of the older discussions a while back - why should I instantly remember your name? To say that you are concerned that I will be moving comments around at the RFC because I am "intemperate" right now is just absurd. You have been highly intemperate yourself!
- Let's all of make it clear now - housekeeping aside, nobody will be moving vote comments at the RFC. And my suggestions above about how to deal with questions can be easily implemented too. Matt Lewis (talk) 02:20, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- What did I say here that suggests I'm 'pissed off'? I don't want to engage in an argument with you, Matt, because you've been aggressively abusive in the past — and seem keen to continue in the same vein now. I strongly disagree with this proposal, but that doesn't mean I'm angry. Until a few comments ago, I thought I was having an open, civil, peaceable discussion with Kim Bruning, Tryptofish, and anyone else who might be interested regarding the anticipated layout of the final poll on whether or not to adopt this proposal as policy. I feel that clarifying everyone's expectations about the final polling process in advance should head off confusion and disruption when the poll actually takes place; I don't see how it is a 'waste of time'. Since it seems likely that further responses to your comments would be counterproductive, I won't reply further. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:26, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Look, the fist I personally heard from you was via two very unfair diatribes - first before the poll, suggesting I am incompetent, and then immediately after the poll, which you attacked quite vehemently. I have chosen to react somewhat in kind, partly because you have genuinely offended me. There is no point in you replying to me because you steadfastly make sure you have nothing productive to say. It is absolutely clear though that 'CDA' is seriously pissing you off: more you won't say - in case we incorporate it into the proposal perhaps?? Whatever you think of 'The Railroaders', there has been a certain mentality from a few of the the critics here, and I've reacted as I have done (as the second part) to try and stop you all from building up steam and breaking the process. I personally think I've been successful enough there, and it's always a thankless job to take on. There has already been a Motion to Close, and I and others are intensely aware that certain people (though how many is hard to say) will try and do whatever they can to stop a CDA proposal from happening. Whether it's because they have another favoured admin recall method, or to protect the 'Job', or whatever. The Motion to Close is probably the main reason there has been so much attempted 'railroading' since. Can't you see how silly it's all been?
- I've had a look through your early comments on CDA from early December on the pre-revision CDA proposal (if the mountain won't move to Mohammed..):
- 1) The idea that CDA unfairly claimed support that was just for 'admin recall' as an broad idea - that boat has sailed right now I'm afraid: CDA is here in front of us.
- 2) The necessary canvassing will lead to biased voting/discussion? You could give it a go I suppose, but if people want the CDA process, they will put up with that. It's the Crat's job to spot consensus past blind bias (ie without good arguments). Some AGF in Wikipedians might be beneficial here - they are not all hotheads, and the proof will be in the pudding: this will effectively be a trial.
- 3) You complain about "checks and balances" but have you read the proposal lately? It has been significantly updated, including the time scales. You could alway add suggestions for improvements too (hmm)
- 4) CDA is not a "Mirror RFA" - I've been consistently arguing this more-or-less since I came into this. Why didn't you back me up? Now we have changed to a baseline of 65% (thanks to the poll), this has been easy to tone right down: they proposal doesn't claim this any more, and merely mentions some similarity (with all the caveats that are needed). 11:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- 5) People HAVE discussed all your concerns!! You got plenty of debate going! I don't see any evidence at all of people shouting you down or bahaving anything like the way you did during the finalisation poll! Jusdafax is right there - it's mainly been me who has taken vocal umbridge - but you deserved it because your retuning wave of complaints were up about 10 notches, effectively disruptive, and just simply over the top. In fact, I can see that you started to raise your voice (even suggesting people are deliberately removing criticism!) after that bloody Motion to Close - which is what effectively got everyone riled up. What an astonishingly bad (in every way) thing to try and pull off that 'motion' was. Everything since has been tainted by it. Matt Lewis (talk) 11:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Believe me, if I knew of a way to put a muzzle on Matt, I would have done it a long time ago. Speaking again only for myself, if I see anyone improperly removing critical comments, I'll revert them myself. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Re muzzling Matt: And then where would we be? Back editing articles after an easily-collapsed RFC! I don't think anyone gets away with moving comments in these things - the originator usually puts them back if no one else does. We have to allow people room to get their points all out. The main thing is that we can respond when a point is contentious or inaccurate etc. The whole thing could be a rollercoaster at points I suppose but that's the way it goes. The vote could be close, or it could pass or fail by a clear margin. Things may arise. It's very hard to predict how things will be, so it's best to keep it open, like most polls. No one can complain with that. Matt Lewis (talk) 02:20, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Believe me, if I knew of a way to put a muzzle on Matt, I would have done it a long time ago. Speaking again only for myself, if I see anyone improperly removing critical comments, I'll revert them myself. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
KISS
We're looking for consensus from the wrong direction. Targeting a smaller group will get you consensus much quicker.
- (Statement of current fact): 1 or 2 people asking a Steward to desysop in a clear emergency will typically lead to an instant (albeit likely temporary) desysop.
- (new proposal, requiring a little negotiating with arbcom): How about we just add a small rule to the Arbcom procedures, so that if 10 or more people ask the arbcom to handle a desysop case, the arbcom must examine the request for legitimacy and act on it? (Ie. can't turn it down... but if they're busy they might just tell the person to re-run at RFA). I hate handing more jobs to the arbcom, but in this case, it's a job they were already doing.
Are there any corner cases that I'm missing? I figure that negotiating with the arbcom is going to be somewhat easier than trying to deal with folks here. ;-)
I think we should be done entirely within a few 24 hour cycles... less if people happen to share time zones. --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- One problem is that this is no longer an Admin Recall matter, it's a Community De-Admin one. People are committed to this being a reverse RfA of some form, and Uncle G's original text is like some kind of holy scripture. I don't know how that happened, but it did. It's what's I found in front of me, so it's what I'm working on. If it's done properly, I can't see why it shouldn't work. It can surely be trialed at least.
- In answer to your suggestion:
- 1) 10 editors could pester arbcom all the time (or so people will say), while the community takes the load with CDA, through the voting stage.
- 2) People don't trust arbcom, and they can have silly issues over content etc. Are they good enough for this?
- 3) WP:RFA's are big polava's - re-running them is resource un-friendly too.
- Matt Lewis (talk) 02:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm hesitant to privilege desysopping cases over and above all others at RfArb, particularly if the sole condition is 'ten people show up'. The ArbCom doesn't accept any other sort of case on that basis. If we lower the bar to an RfArb too far, then we'll also encourage editors to jump over other dispute resolution and go straight for the hangman. Compelling the ArbCom to deal with cases where there have been perfunctory attempts at prior resolution (if any) probably just means that they'll dismiss those cases by motion (in effect, or in fact). If that outcome is all right with you, then I suppose we can drop it on them and see what they say.
- I like Jehochman's suggestion (possibly originating with or endorsed by other editors; I don't know if it's originally his) of an RfC that can feed into an ArbCom motion (as appropriate). If a consensus develops at RfC that specific sanctions (including desysopping, but possibly also things like topic bans or interaction restrictions) should be applied to a particular admin (or to any of the major participants in the RfC, for that matter) then the result can be taken to ArbCom for endorsement. It's the sort of thing that could be handled by motions or by a brief case (if the ArbCom is concerned the consensus is unclear or that there are related issues requiring investigation). It allows for a discussion of community expectations for admin conduct in a slightly more relaxed environment and with slightly more relaxed timelines than are available during an RfArb filing. Finally, it lets the ArbCom (a neutral body, which expects Committee members with a conflict of interest or other strong bias to recuse) sanity-check the evidence and conclusions. Such a process doesn't even require any policy changes, which leaves me wondering why no one has ever tried it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well, at that point, don't we sort of end up with the traditional dispute resolution path? (If we start at RFC, why not talk with medcom or so too? ) --Kim Bruning (talk) 12:14, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- RfC is just too ubiquitous and undersold. Admin recall needs it's own platform, and one of the strongest aspects of CDA is that it has just that. Also, Arbcom are not fully trusted - despite the rucusing, they appear to many people to be basically higher-powered admin. Can admin judge admin? Having the Bureaucrats decide will bring them closer to the public, and will force them to be accountable too. Accountability will spread throughout Wikipedia with CDA.
- The baseline and threhold percentages (which should be 65% and 85% if we call a compromise consensus on the clearly split percentages in VOTE 2) will give editors at least some feeling of being able stand up to the perceived untouchability of admin. Seriously - I don't think enough admin actual realise the amount of bad faith there is against them simply because they are just so unaccountable.
- CDA being posed as a 'mirror RFA' idea is a total con I agree - but at least the de-election powers it has (with all the massive safeguards) adds some kind of 'balance' to the medieval system we have now. Admin who get through RFA are massively rewarded for doing so. The "mop and a bucket" job label is of course a joke - it is supposed to be a "mop and bucket", but admin are clearly knighted with a strong set of powers that can lead to a whole range of abuses. It is effectively an honour for life. Taking away some of that lustre will go some way to diminishing the abusable aspects of those powers.
- I for one would unimpressed with an Arbcom-heavy process, and see the above suggestion as constituting little change. I've seen Arbcom ignoring too much. They are used to saying "this is not an Arbcom matter", and refusing content. The don't look at anything unless they are prompted to. I really don't think they are built for judging what the community feels - the community is. And the 'community' is every Wikipedian made equal. Arbcom should be able to vote.
- The community should really have a dedicated part of Wikipedia where serious community-related matters like CDA can be held. That way they can be informed of things. It is currently easy to inform all admin, and almost impossible to inform the community, unless you are allowed to feature in the 'watchlist' (which can be arguably easily ignored). So CDA has all the extra net benefits, and makes some good use of the Bureaucrats, rather than push Arbcom beyond their limits. Matt Lewis (talk) 13:37, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Timeframe
Please note: Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship#Goal for finishing talk. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Don't panic folks, we don't need to fix date quite yet. It is possible that a CDA proposal is almost there though. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Comments on what you'd like to see happen right now
This is a perhaps a good time to say things you still want to say. I'd love people just to make a simple comment on they would like to see happen right now. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
I think everyone at this point
- 1. Don't panic.
- 2. Go to Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship#Getting page ready, where, with a little scrolling down, you'll come to a bulleted list of the things I think are still unclear, along with some responses inserted by MacDui (sorry that they make it harder to read). I'd love to see us figure out what we really think about all of those bulleted points.
- 3. Don't panic. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm as calm as can be. GoodDay (talk) 23:46, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- You may be the only one. :-) --Tryptofish (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm as calm as can be. GoodDay (talk) 23:46, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to know whatever happened with this, without having to read it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 06:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- Do you mean this draft page (ie CDA in general?): In what context, though? I'll make a section below on the past events (please correct any glaring mistakes). Matt Lewis (talk) 18:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- I, too, wish that I didn't have to read all of it! My impression at this stage is that no one is bringing up new problems, and what remains between now and being comfortable with going forward is for us all to examine, in a constructive spirit, and without finger-pointing or letting personal grudges get in the way, the remaining issues where there are differences of opinion, and figure out how to resolve those differences in a rational way. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:37, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Matt Lewis: How the CDA proposal got to this stage
The idea of 'Admin recall' was under discussion, and a poll was made on its validity: 77% of voters were in favour of it. Around 14 forms of AR were then proposed, and the Community de-Adminship proposal turned out to have the most support in the polls (with 67% and a majority of 13, it was the only one that surpassed 50% support). While the support for the CDA proposal was not strong enough to make every one happy, after some debate a significant number of people felt it was still strong enough to advance. People then proposed various revisions to the original proposal, and the current version of CDA (that a Bureaucrat decides on whether to de-sysop and admin after spotting a clear consensus to do so) was based on 'revision 5.4', which was the only major revision proposed that had more 'support' than 'oppose' votes. However, a significant number of people who voted in agreement to the principle of 5.4, said that a 70% 'baseline' for the consensus margin would be too high for them.
A number of people were unhappy with the advancement of CDA, and after a lull in votes, a Motion to Close was put forward which, after it was broadly and fairly canvassed by both 'sides', brought in some new faces to the process. The motion to disband CDA eventually lost by 2 votes to 1. The attempt to disband something in mid proposal meant that a number of people on both 'sides' were decidedly unhappy at this point.
After the 4th Jan deadline for the revision-poll phase, some concerned people put their name down for more time to debate. This was effectively put on hold, and a small but tight group of people (who were long-time participants on the Admin recall debates) started to move a newly-revised 5.4-based proposal towards RFC (the community vote). The concern was raised that the Christmas/New Year/early Jan period was not the best time for making big decisions, and that the general 'attendance' was currently low. A significant criticism was; should we move forward on a revision just because it was the only one of a particular group to have (limited) support? As attendance was so low, the idea was made to either make a two-phase poll at the final RFC (asking questions on what type of CDA was wanted, before voting FOR or AGAINST the winning decision), or to make a further poll here, to encourage more input before the RFC. The idea of more polling was criticised from people who were both for and against moving forward with CDA, who felt (for different reasons) that there had been enough polls already.
Though strong-willed and committed, the group wanting to “push on to the RFC” was too small to secure a sense of consensus. In the absense of any other productive debate, a 'Finalisation poll' was made, which was a little rushed and compromised in order to appease those who were still critical of it (who were still mindful of the Motion to Close, did not want to risk more 'unhelpful stonewalling', and to some degree at least, wanted to rush on to RFC rather than waste any more time). The initial poll was adapted to accommodate people's comments on it, changing from an initial 2 vote poll, to a 4 vote poll.
The “Finalisation poll” was initially intended to decide what the ambiguous 'consensus margin' percentages should be (in VOTES 1 and 2). The poll also asked the question of whether people were happy with a two-stage community RFC (VOTE 4), and those who voted on this clearly wished to propose a single 'finished product' to the RFC, and did not wand to “over-complicate” matters. There was also an “unofficial” oppose (VOTE 4), where those critical of this CDA proposal could express their concerns. This was non-binding, as the Motion to Close had already failed to gain majority support. A number of people who didn't vote in votes 1-3 commented in vote 4.
Looking at the results of VOTE 1 and 2, it was clear that we needed to adjust the 70% baseline for the consensus margin to 65%, to fairly represent the range of opinion (many people wanted as low as 50%, while some wanted higher at 75%). Whether to adjust the top threshold of the consensus margin from 80% to 85% is still being debated (as 80% was out-polled 2:1 by the 90% and 100% votes).
Why should any of this be the end of the process?
A number of other issues with the CDA details have recently been brought to light, and these are being debated on the CDA proposal talk page. Matt Lewis (talk) 18:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- As far as I'm concerned, we are still at the writing stage of the CDA proposal, and anything can be adapted to it (or even changed surrounding it) providing there is a real consensus to do so. It's been a bumpy ride at times, but I personally don't think that a CDA proposal of some sort could have been avoided, given the debate for and against it that I have read. It is very easy for critics to say "we've not been listened to", but I can't find any specific evidence of this - it is more a case of CDA beingadvanced, partly through support for it, and part the absense of enough opposition and counter-arguments. This can lead to 'railroading' of course, and there a has certainly been a real danger of that. Railroading needs to be countered properly though. Speaking realistically, it does look like this CDA proposal will be put to the community now, and it may or may not win support. Either way, new things can still be looked at. CDA would be a trial of a singular process, and it shouldn't prevent people looking at different options or changes elsewhere. Things can also change at this stage now. Matt Lewis (talk) 18:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- You asked for others to correct anything we see as mistakes. Overall, I think your summary is fair, but here are a few things where there are differing points of view. The fourth paragraph is subjective in the ways that it characterizes editors who did not always agree with Matt, and in the way that it excuses some of the rush in devising the poll. The summary generally does not give equal time to the editors who have said that they are growing impatient with the length of the process. Where, near the end, it says that 80% was out-polled, it fails to reflect that 90% was out-polled by the same amount, and, based on the actual count as the question was worded, 85% was out-polled by something like 75:1—the point being, not that there really is such strong evidence against 85%, but, rather, that there is not such strong evidence for it, either. It still needs to be discussed. Personally, I don't want to go forward with an RfC until we can really resolve that point. But I'm optimistic that we will soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:49, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- I did mean to indicate that the 'close group' dedicated to pushing CDA on, had been committed to the project throughout - but while I was struggling on how to phrase it, to be honest I eventually thought "so what?". Lots of people do a huge amount of fruitless (and thankless) work on Wikipedia, and many of the people watching you (who disagree with this particular CDA proposal) will also have also put a lot of work in too, many with the frustration of seeing their work shelved. You not being Johnny-come-latelies is a worthwhile point though, so I'll drop in something on it. It already suggests that a lot of frustration was involved.
- I said the fourth paragraph, not the third. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- On the 85% argument, I tried not to prejudice it, but 80% was certainly out-polled 2:1 whatever reasons there were for it. The fact that 90% and 100% were out-polled too, surely only adds weight to creating a new compromise percentage, instead of picking one of 80, 90, or 100. The main point is; we cannot call 80% a consensus in terms of the finalisation poll results, whether it us the percentage more likely to satisfy the public or not. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:42, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- I did mean to indicate that the 'close group' dedicated to pushing CDA on, had been committed to the project throughout - but while I was struggling on how to phrase it, to be honest I eventually thought "so what?". Lots of people do a huge amount of fruitless (and thankless) work on Wikipedia, and many of the people watching you (who disagree with this particular CDA proposal) will also have also put a lot of work in too, many with the frustration of seeing their work shelved. You not being Johnny-come-latelies is a worthwhile point though, so I'll drop in something on it. It already suggests that a lot of frustration was involved.