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Gud music only

Does anyone else find it odd that only a few days after NIM, or Comet Egypt, or whatever his name is, was blocked, another user (Gud music only (talk · contribs) comes along, with a similar age gap between him and his younger sister, and a concern for the credits of children's shows? I know, I know, AGF etc...but still. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

NIM was blocked? I didn't know, but it's a relief I must say. --Viennese Waltz 15:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Comet Egypt had a sister? I hadn't known that. I had thought the voice-actor thing was his own "interest". Was she 4, too? If it's him again, he is affecting a more sophisticated persona this time [1] (which would reconfirm my sense that most of "N.I.M." was an "act"...). WikiDao ☯ 16:50, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

If it is the same, it fits with the suspicion of others that this is a person who makes up a persona and then becomes a pest based on that persona until blocked. I've seen requests to trace the IP, but there hasn't been enough proof to grant those requests. This time, keep a close eye on the details. If it is like N.I.M., you'll see the persona adapt from what others say to him. For example, N.I.M. (when he was anon IP) discussed things he saw until he was told about screenreaders for the blind. Suddenly, he was blind and never mentioned seeing things again. -- kainaw™ 18:46, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Hmm thought I'd posted this but must have made a mistake and never submitted, not seeing any sign of it in the history so guess it wasn't removed unless it was oversighted which seems unlikely since the comment I linked to is there (and I checked my email just in case). Anyway CE has claimed in the past they were watching shows with their sister Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2010 October 23#what's with the excessive effect on arthur episode. As with many things CE has said, I think for many of us it's a case of 'don't know, don't care' whether there's any truth to the claims. Nil Einne (talk) 15:14, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm just glad that the actual, real-world and very serious issue with NIM has been dealt with (not the mere "annoyance" factor, which I was never too troubled by myself) – and glad to hear that "Gud music" turns out to be legit! :) WikiDao ☯ 15:21, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

As noted at WP:ANI, it was discovered that "Comet Egypt" and "Gud music only" are unrelated, but that "Gud music only" is an alternate account of Money is tight (talk · contribs). Neither Gud nor Money has been blocked. I've asked the admin whether Gud/Money should be cautioned to just stick with one account. Comet has been socking through an IP, though, and it's been put on ice for the time being. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:14, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I'd like to say thanks a lot to the editor who suggested that N.I.M. change their name to "Comet Egypt", which I regard as a sullying of my fine name. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:34, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Apparently his imaginary friend suggested the "Comet" part[2] (because he "likes Space"). Then Franamax just suggested adding on the "Egypt"[3]. WikiDao ☯ 00:02, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Medical Advice question removed

Diff. Nimur (talk) 06:36, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Indentation levels

I'd like to ask people generally to be more careful with the indentation levels they choose. Sometimes it's next to impossible to follow who's talking to whom in a long and complex thread, if the indentation levels aren't spot on.

Basically, if you're responding to Editor A, indent one level in from their post – regardless of how many edits by other editors may have occurred in the meantime and regardless of the indent levels they use. Do not simply ident one in from whatever the last post was before you made your post, because that may not be Editor A. If it is Editor A, fine; but if not, find Editor A's indent level and make yours 1 in from theirs.

To give a very recent example, and this is in no way singling Dismas out, see this edit by Dismas. I had made the initial response to the OP’s question, one level in. Dismas had some more to say to the OP, and it also ought to have been one level in from the original question, i.e. at the same level as my post. But he put it one level in from my post, or two levels in from the OP's question. It looks like Dismas was talking to me, but the text suggests he was talking to the OP. It's confused and confusing.

I’m seeing a lot of this sort of thing lately, so I thought a timely reminder might be useful. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:58, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree, Jack. Looking at your example, if Dismas had indented at the same level as your post his reply would not have stood out as being separate from yours. To me the whole point of indenting is not to signal who you are responding to, but to make it clear where one post ends and the next one begins. Also, the way Dismas did it, it makes the whole section flow more like a conversation – which is what it is, basically.

I also have to think about this issue of indentation when I want to make a reply to a post which has had responses added to it subsequently. E.g. someone makes post 1 with an indentation level of 1, then someone else comes along and makes post 2 with an indentation level of 2. If I have something to say to post 1 after that, I would insert my response directly after post 1 and before post 2. But I would not use an indentation level of 2, because then it makes it look like my post is at the same level as post 2, which it is not. So I would give my post an indentation level of 3. --Viennese Waltz 14:18, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm with Viennese Waltz. I use indentation to set off my comment as distinct from the one above. Usually, the only time I add a comment with the same indentation level as the previous comment is when the previous comment was my own and I'm adding a P.S. to it. If it seems likely that it won't be clear who my comment is addressed to, I'll add the user's name, especially when I'm responding to multiple people in a single post. Pais (talk) 14:34, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Jack is correct, VW. The visual break between posts is provided by the presence of a signature and by the automatically-generated (slightly) larger line spacing after each paragraph break. Adding an additional layer of indentation means that a top-level post with multiple responses will end up drifting further and further towards right right margin, and it makes the target of comments ambiguous — is the indented post replying to the post immediately above, or to the grandparent post, or to the very top of the thread? Interleaving your comment ahead of other posts at the same level makes the chronological order of posting ambiguous. (Not to mention the problem of it introducing an additional extraneous indentation level.)

Consider what happens if several editors apply your proposed indentation method multiple times in the course of a discussion. While unusual indentation can generally be readily deciphered in threads that only have one or two replies, it becomes a confusing mess when more editors chime in. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:52, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Note that you can "set off" your comment from the one above by adding a blank line before your comment. Note how this paragraph is more separated from the previous one ...

...than this one is. That's because I added a blank line before my comment, to separate my comment from the previous one. Note that if a single blank line is not enough separation for you, two gives more. (But please don't overdo it.) -- 174.31.216.144 (talk) 16:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I've noticed this being done, but I don't understand the rationale. Does it imply post 3 is more of a reply to post 1 than post 2 is? 213.122.68.78 (talk) 18:04, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I fully endorse Jack's request. Detailed guidance on indentation practices and markup can be found at

• Wikipedia:Tutorial/Talk pages#Indenting
• Help:Using talk pages#Indentation
• Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines
• Wikipedia:Indentation

Happy editing, one and all. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:52, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I understand the worries about responses not looking like new replies. However, it's worse that people can't tell who is responding to whom. You can avoid the issue by using the indents properly and occasionally inserting a blank line, like this:

Reply 1

Reply 2

Reply 2a

Hope that helps --Dweller (talk) 15:54, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

New message: JackofOz, I agree with you that editors should be more careful about indentation levels. Because the message (by Dweller) immediately above this one is not indented, I had to use your username to clarify that my message is addressed to you. The original poster might post with no indentation, in order to express thanks for replies, but no one else should do so. Also, the boldface expression "New message" illustrates another method of indicating the beginning of a new message.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:18, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

[I am revising my message.—Wavelength (talk) 19:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)]

Are you guys serious?

I sure hope not.

because that would be...

odd. --Ludwigs2 20:02, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

OK. Let me return to the "Roman numbers" thread that inspired this discussion. Blueboar's contribution starting "Of course ..." is fine in itself, but look at the indentation level. It's one in from my post asking Dismas to be more careful about indentation levels, so it looks like Blueboar is responding to me. But it's actually a reply to the OP and their original question about Roman numbers, and should therefore have been at indent level 1, not level 4. Again, this is not personal about Blueboar or Dismas, they're merely examples of a wider malaise. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Indentation has been discussed many times on various Reference Desk pages.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:19, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I shall try to do my best, but I suspect it will be like trying to drain the ocean with a thimble. Too many people don't know the indent guidelines (myself included), and we certainly can't expect new users to look that up before helping. Try not to get too worked up about it, and maybe on try and deal with the truly confusing cases. Aaronite (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Aaronite, did you read the detailed guidance from the four links provided by TenOfAllTrades at 14:52, 24 January 2011 (UTC)?

—Wavelength (talk) 22:12, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

@JackofOz: I tried here,but I think (a) it looks silly (b) it is hard to read and (c) it is confusing. Aside from that, I have no opinion. :>) Bielle (talk) 21:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

You didn't sign! That might help, y'know. (Perhaps put a blank line after KägeTorä's post, if you're bothered.) 213.122.39.194 (talk) 00:10, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

That's a mess because it's so full of blue links it's hard to see the signatures (depending on the size of your browser window, of course). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:32, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Someone can produce a tutorial and a set of exercises on indentation. Please see the list under "Self-help writing tutorials" at User talk:Tony1.

—Wavelength (talk) 21:42, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Jack's opinion on this matter. I don't get too worked up over it when I see it in others, but please let me know if I mis-count my colons (ahem) and end up out of sync. I have and will fix it if I catch it or am alerted to an error of mine. Also, I will note that if a thread is getting so long that it becomes difficult to work out how many colons to use, it's a good bet that the thread has slipped into discussion and/or jokes (present thread excepted, of course :-). A thought occurs... I wonder what percentage of people who make proper and rigorous use of indentation have a background in usenet discussion groups (as opposed to folks unfamiliar with usenet)? On usenet, "top-posting" a reply rather than keeping things in chronological order was usually grounds for a weeks-long flame war and it is there that I learned to be mindful of ease of attribution in whatever context. Matt Deres (talk) 22:01, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Matt - agree with your sense that usenet may have been formative for many who know the importance of careful text editing, but you might've mentioned "plonk" as a severe form of punishment in that space. I have wished for a kill file many-a-time since those days. Oh, and regarding this thread overall I fully endorse Jack and TOAT's comments on proper indentation. Once you use it and see it enough, it'll seem obvious. -- Scray (talk) 01:41, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Goodness, I'd love to be able to plonk! (but not for making the wrong indentation :-). ---Sluzzelin talk 01:52, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes, maybe even often, a post will be answering the original question on the one hand, while at the same time commenting on some other points made by respondents. Sure, you could break up the various points and post with the correct indentation to each response individually, but I often see these threads as a conversation, progressing in time, picking up themes and varying them. I don't think we need to be this rigorous in all cases, Jack's example notwithstanding. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

That's a good point, Sluzzelin. Yes, sometimes it's impossible to be black and white about it and we have to just do our best. But equally, given the range of writing styles, linguistic backgrounds and abbreviatory paradigms we attract here, sometimes it's impossible to tell from the text alone just exactly who is being addressed, and in such cases the indent level is crucial for proper comprehension. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:57, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Because we're discussing indentation, I'll mention the Template:Outdent. It may be helpful to disambiguate response-indentation, in some cases. Overuse is not recommended. Nimur (talk) 18:29, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, I want to suggest that having no indentation (as Nimur's post above demonstrates) is also a pain. Because now it looks like I am responding to him, whether I want to appear that way or not! The only way to avoid that is for me not to indent, which just shifts the burden to the next person in the series. For this reason I do sometimes add an indent to such posts if nobody has yet responded to them. I know, I know — editing others' posts, etc., but it seems like a small price to pay for being clear, and I only do it when there are no actual consequences (if I started changing indents willy-nilly on threads that are already in progress, obviously that would introduce more confusion than it would relieve). --Mr.98 (talk) 16:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

When somebody adds an unindented response (as I do pretty often), you should feel free to place things above it if you are responding to something earlier. Looie496 (talk) 17:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

There are "unindented consequences" of most major decisions.  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:49, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh dear me, Jack! Bielle (talk) 21:02, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Except that there should be no pun indented. ;) WikiDao ☯ 22:07, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

And thank you for being true to your word, WikiDao. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:19, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Not at all, Jack – my inden_tations are sincere! :) WikiDao ☯ 19:49, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I've generally indented at a different level to the post immediately above (so it stands out as a different response). If I need to explicitly reply to another answerers post, I would mention that explicitly or use something like "@...". Sorry Jack, but I find it confusing when there are many posts at the same indent-level and have never considered indentation as indicating to whom you are replying. Astronaut (talk) 18:07, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

It might be time to brush up on the guidelines, as linked above by TenOfAll Trades. The relevant bits all say essentially the same thing:

• Wikipedia:Tutorial/Talk pages: A standard practice is to indent your reply one level deeper than the person you are replying to

• Help:Using talk pages: Comments are indented to show whether they are replies to other comments, and if so, which ones

• Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines: Use indentation as shown in Help:Using talk pages#Indentation (or, more specifically, Wikipedia:Indentation) to clearly indicate who you are replying to

• Wikipedia:Indentation: 2. If two replies are made to one specific comment, they should be at the same level of indentation with the later reply at the bottom.

Happy behaviour modification, Astronaut.  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:37, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

A direct reply to the comment immediately above :-) Despite that, I still disagree. The reason it is confusing comes when everyone is replying to the OP and some replies take two or more paragraphs. For example: In this very discussion Viennese Waltz's reply is split into 2 paragraphs. The next reply (by Pais) is really a reply to Jack's original question and according to the supposed rules should also have been indented with just one colon. Unfortunately, that would have made it much more difficult to spot that Viennese Waltz's reply was in fact two paragraphs by one contributor rather than two different replies. Pais' decision to indent with two colons was therefore the correct thing to do. By putting my replies on a different indentation level to the one above, I am making it clear that I am a different respondant. Therefore, I will not be modifying my behaviour on this issue. Astronaut (talk) 00:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

When I post something that includes multiple paragraphs, I will sometimes (although not always - I'm not sure how I decide, really) put my signature on a new line.

That provides separation between my post and a post at the same level immeadiately below it.

--Tango (talk) 00:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

@ Astronaut: Pais's post was addressed to the general readership (including me) and was ostensibly a comment on the issue I raised – but it was also indirectly a reply to Viennese Waltz (he's referred to in the 3rd person) because it was commenting specifically on VW's post, not just on my original post. It could only have happened after Viennese Waltz's post, and was not independent of it. So, I'd support Pais's indenting on that basis. But not just because Viennese Waltz's post happened to be the immediately preceding post. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 00:42, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Requests for feedback is requesting more volunteers

Just saw this at one of the noticeboards. Wikipedia:Requests for feedback is asking for more helpers. Since you are helpful people and because helping newbies is cool, I thought I'd advertise here too. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

What a depressing page. It's editor after editor writing articles about non-notable people, companies, bands, and events, hoping to skirt our rules. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:35, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Removed humanities question from Science Reference Desk

A non-scientific question was asked at the Science Desk. I explained that it was not appropriate to the Science Desk, and suggested that someone might consider asking it at the Humanities Desk. See diff. I have now deleted the thread from WP:RD/S. Dolphin (t) 05:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd ask you to repost the entire thread at the Humanities desk and leave a link at the Science desk, under the same title the querent used (which in this case is "r"; yes it's one of the single-letter titles we've been seeing recently). ---Sluzzelin talk 05:24, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I originally agreed with you but after seeing it was by Tommy35750 who's been asked multiple times under his many different user names (often removing the requests so we can presume he's read them) to post questions in the appropriate desk (but still seems to use the science desk most of the time with an occasional visit to computing and entertainment) and considering that he couldn't even bother to give it a proper title I'm fine with what Dolphin51 did (noting he did inform Tommy35750). I'm not saying I'd object if someone does want to move it but Tommy35750 seems to have a decent command of English so really it's difficult to see any reason for his behaviour but laziness and inconsideration for his fellow wikipedians (presuming it's not trolling but despite his past problems I'm still not convinced he's a troll per se). The question could of course just have been left in place and I'm not saying we should go around deleting all wrongly places questions but when a user refuses to respond to repeated requests to use a more appropriate desk and particularly considering the science desk is already usually the largest desk and the question is not in any way related to science (i.e. not a borderline case) I don't see the need for people to have to waste time doing what someone else should have done. And yes I've notified Tommy35750 of this discussion. Nil Einne (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. I suspected something similar. The single-letter-title questions had been puzzling me for a while, which is why I used the conditional (but left out the "if" clause). ---Sluzzelin talk 22:24, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

edit request from new poster, de-reverted

In response to the post (IP: 212.85.7.14) on this page that was reverted, I have copied this text over the the Chinghiz Aitmatov page. It was posted in the wrong place, but by an obvious WP newbie, and shouldn't just be ignored. If Dr. Abduvalieva returns to this page, he will see the text posted at Talk:Chinghiz Aitmatov where the editors there will hopefully address his concerns. SamuelRiv (talk) 07:10, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Judging from the name, he is a she.—Emil J. 11:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Dear friends,

My name is Dr.Rahima Abduvalieva. I am the founder of Aitmatov Academy in London. May I reguest you to remove some wrong informations about Chyngyz Aitmatov on the page of Wikipedia?

First of all: Chyngyz Aitmatov won the Lenin Prize not for "Jamilia"! He won this Prize for the selected volume of his works under the title "Povesti gor i stepei" in Russian language. It means "The tales of mountains ans steppes", 1963.

Second mistake: the name of Chyngyz Aitmatov and Ghengis Khan are not the same. Chyngyz Aitmatov didn't like this comparison of two names! I worked with the writer more than 30 years . Please, don't put these two names together. It is a humilitation of personality of the writer!

The third point about plagiarism? Where did you get this type of informations? Could you provide me the sources? I feel very insalted of those type of info, because I know all Aitmatov's creation very well... Could you show me this type of plagiat in his works, which you mind?

I'll be very thankful for your understanding & help... Please let me know about your correction

my e-mail: <redacted>

Sincerely yours

Dr. Rahima Abduvalieva, Director of Aitmatov Academy in London

Note: I did not revert that message from the RD project page, but I did notify the frequently-problematic IP from which it was posted that it had been reverted. WikiDao ☯ 01:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Remove "Medicine" and "law"

"Medicine" should be removed from the Science desk description and "Law" should be removed from the Humanities desc. We can not give legal advice, nor medical. JustEase (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

But we can surely discuss medical topics...we've had numerous ones about effects of something as related to nutrition or food-safety, human endurance, diseases, etc. We can talk all about those ideas, except for telling readers how to apply it to themselves. I assume the situation is similar for legal issues, where we can talk about laws and legal systems and...anything legal except advice. DMacks (talk) 19:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Advice, no, but we can answer questions asking for medical information and legal information. Kainaw's criterion is the generally accepted dividing line between the two. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the archives. -- 174.21.236.191 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:37, 30 January 2011 (UTC).

I currently count about 9 questions at the Humanities desk on legal matters. Some of them are historical legal questions, but most of them are about present-day law. None of them were asking for legal advice, and they all received referenced answers (and some of them also received off-topic comments and unreferenced speculation). I quickly scanned the current Science desk, and there too, saw questions on physiology, anatomy, pathology, toxicology, that were not asking for medical advice. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:42, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

(ec) While we are ofttimes unsure, even amongst the regulars here, as to the differences between questions about law or medicine, and advice about law or medicine, the former are quite acceptable. Bielle (talk) 19:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Bad idea to remove the words. There is nothing wrong with asking questions about medicine or the law. It's just not allowed to ask people at Wikipedia to do the jobs of doctors or lawyers. --Jayron32 20:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

But it is fine to do the job og a scientist, a philologist and a translator. What's so bad about interpreting a law? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.17.27.62 (talk) 22:12, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Both medicine and law are regulated professions in a large number of jurisdictions, and one can suffer great harm by following bad advice (e.g. advice obtained from random yahoos on the internet). We come back to the advice/information distinction: it's fine to talk about legal matters in abstract ("as best I can tell, this hypothetical situation would probably be decided by (law)"), but highly inappropriate to talk specifics ("what your neighbor did was probably illegal, according to (law)"). Unfortunately, we've found that anytime someone asks a question that touches on specific cases, someone invariably renders advice, rather than sticking strictly to information, which is why they're removed. -- 174.21.236.191 (talk) 22:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I dispute your characterizations of "anytime" [sic] and "invariably". Providing legal information and medical information is fine and the words should stay. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:50, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Alternates to Codeine

User:Jayron32 removed my question here and here. Since it clearly asks for neither diagnosis nor prognosis, I can only assume Jayron32 believes it is a request for treatment. I didn't think it fell into the forbidden category or I wouldn't have asked it, but my question may have been worded badly. If I ask "What non-codeine medications are available, equal in potency to Tylenol 3?" (which is what I want to know), is that acceptable? Bielle (talk) 20:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

As one who sometimes removes medadvice questions, I'm no opponent of appropriate removal, but I think this one is a bit arguable. For example, an appropriate response might have been a reliable open-access publication describing commonly-prescribed analgesics like PMID 12356035 or PMID 18167408 (this table in particular). Important aspect is that responding did not require any diagnostic decision-making, just access to information. If the consensus is with the removal, then I anticipate my response here may be removed, and if that's the case I won't object. -- Scray (talk) 21:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

While it is conceivable that someone asking this question might be covertly seeking medical advice, the language of the question does not compel this interpretation. It is neither implausible nor even unlikely that the original poster is simply curious, rather than seeking medical advice. (For those who are interested in particular nuance, I will note if the OP had been seeking advice, Scray's response immediately above would have been inappropriate under our guidelines — while his response contained no diagnosis, it does indirectly offer a treatment recommendation.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Re-reading the opening comment of this thread, I would ask Bielle if it was his/her intent to use this information in guiding his/her search for or selection of painkillers. If so, then the question was indeed out of bounds for the Reference Desk. Suggesting alternative drug choices to individuals is something that should be done by a physician or pharmacist, not by the Wikipedia Reference Desk. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I think the reason it was removed was that it's a strangely specific thing to be curious about - most people in a situation to ponder the question would either have a doctor to consult, or would be a doctor, and thus have better references than Wikipedia. I think either phrasing would likely be questioned, as people would assume that you are asking because you or someone you know is allergic to/can't handle codine, and you want advice on what else can be used. Perhaps revealing the non-medical-advice reasons why you're interested in this information would allay concerns. -- 174.21.236.191 (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I get the feeling that this has come from the US where thanks to the “war on drugs”, effective pain control for the law abiding citizen has been put beyond their reach. By “non-codeine” I wonder if the OP really means non-opiate ( as DF 118's is a next step up -outside of the US- for moderate pain control). There are others, but it depends on what the pain control is needed for. For the short term, low dose of ketamine might be OK, but the patient would need to be keep under medical observation. Thus, no good for more chronic conditions (and for other another reason). However, unlike opiates, it will not caurse the same constipation problem/blood flow etc. But the LAW in the US blurs medical comparisons to the point, that from a 'effectiveness' point of view, the best clinical answers conflict with drug control legislation.--Aspro (talk) 23:14, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

To clear up misconceptions that may be associated with any of the above:

(a) it's not about a specific treatment option. It couldn't be, as all such decisions in most countries are made by physicians who are extremely unlikely to be looking here or to their patients for pharmaceutical recommendations. (I suppose it is possible that I was looking to find something on the black market, but that rather stretches credibility to the ripping point);

(b) for the record, I am not allergic to codeine - good thing or I would have coughed myself to death this winter;

(c) I am not in the U.S., but in Canada, where there is slightly less hysteria, though no less concern, about the addictive qualities of pain medication; and,

(d) I was merely curious, following on from a RL conversation, as I haven't ever heard of anyone coming away from a surgical experience with any pain prescription for other than Tylenol 3, although self-administered morphine I.V, may have been used during a hospital stay. Bielle (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I forgot the question about whether the query was for "other than codeine" or really meant "other than opiates". The answer is that I don't know. If an allergy to codeine would also necessarily mean an allergy to all opiates, then I would be looking for a drug that was not an opiate, but just as effective as Tylenol 3. If an allergy to codeine just means an allergy to codeine, then the next opiate in the list, with Tylenol 3 effectiveness, is what I would like to know. Bielle (talk) 00:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

We have an article on Opiate comparison which you may find informative. You can have a severe allergic reaction to some without necessarily being allergic to all opiates. But allergic reactons to opiates should definitely be addressed with a qualified physician, not here. Even as much of a response as this is a violation of the no-medical-advice policy. I agree that this question unambiguously qualified for removal under that policy -- as does this thread itself, frankly. WikiDao ☯ 01:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

But Bielle is right, the thing to do is to reword the question and then you can get around the guidelines. A question like "what alternatives to Tylenol are available?" does not require a diagnosis, and should therefore not be removed. With a bit of thought it should be possible to rephrase most medical advice questions in this way. --Viennese Waltz 11:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, simply depersonalizing the question seems to be the way around the guidelines. I've recommended that before on the talk pages of some questioners whose questions have been deleted. There seem to be, of course, mixed views about the permissibility of doing that. So, you should only do that at your own risk. ;)

At this point, having been around long enough to see how these sorts of questions tend to go, I am increasingly of the strong-guideline-enforcement camp (everything that satisfies K's criterion should be immediately and completely deleted), though not so much so that I'm not still open to the possibility of other approaches. For now though that's the policy, and for good reason, and for simplicity's sake it should be strictly followed to the letter, though it seems clear that the controversy around it will be with us for a long time to come... WikiDao ☯ 16:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Opiate comparison was very useful (thank you, WikiDao), as was Scray's suggestion about the open-access publications. I appreciate all the points of view expressed here. I still don't agree that I was looking for advice, but information, and out of curiosity, not need. YMMV. Thanks, Bielle (talk) 17:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Question about October 2005 Science Archives

I don't know if I should be putting this here, but...

Why is there green text from Media to What did cellophane replace? and how could it be removed? 99.237.87.79 (talk) 00:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

User:Smurrayinchester's signature was extremely poorly formed HTML — instead of using the code to say, "this part is green, now ends the part in green," it says, "this part is green, and now this part is black." In other words, it was just stacking <font> tags on top of each other, rather than actually ending them. I don't know why it caused that section and that section only to turn green, but I suspect the browser is just doing its best to make sense of a lot of malformed HTML. The result is that any </font> tag has a risk of ending the "this part is black" tag and replacing everything with green. It's idiotic and I'm surprised nobody noticed at the time how poorly done it was. It is fixed easily enough, by changing his last "make this black" tag into the requisite closing </font> tags. I have done this. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:41, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for a change in dealing with medical/legal questions

I would like to propose a change in how we deal with medical or legal questions: Instead of deleting the question it shall be hidden with {{cot}} and {{cob}} (or a template made specifically for this purpose, perhaps one that automatically includes an explanation similar to {{RD-deleted}}.

The reason for this is that sometimes editors mistakenly remove questions that are not a problem to answer, and by simply hiding instead of removing them it makes it easier for other editors to quickly check. Ariel. (talk) 07:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

That hides the question in a pretty green box, but how is that better than deleting the question and telling editors about it on this page? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that people will open the box, read the question, and some fraction will go ahead and answer the question on the Desk anyway—even if they shouldn't. Leaving the question posted requires every reader of the Ref Desk to be aware of, fully understand, and willing to comply with our rules on medical (and legal) advice. We have experimented fairly extensively with applying various templates and warnings and cautions and boxes to requests for medical advice; in all cases someone comes along and – in good faith, but in complete contravention of our rules – gives the advice requested. Edit warring, recriminations, and eventual removal of the question usually follow.

If the removal of a question is disputed, there should be a followup discussion here on this talk page; if the consensus is that the removal was in error, then we repost the question to the Desk. (This is also part of the existing rules.) Yes, this means that from time to time a question may wait a few hours (or even a couple of days) before it gets an answer. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:44, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I support Ariel.'s proposal. Let's try it for a month and see how it works. I dispute that "in all cases" someone comes along and answers medical questions. I think it's a better service to our public to tell them to see a doctor if they are concerned, rather than just having their question disappear when they return to the RD to see how we answered, and assume the RD is malfunctioning, and go over to Yahoo Answers to get help with their medical issue. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I will be very surprised if you can find a single case in which a question identified as a request for medical advice was NOT answered when it was left on the desk. Even when it was clearly stated "DO NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION", editors would feel an insatiable urge to click the edit button and voice their opinions in the form of medical advice. It is my opinion that telling people that they shouldn't answer the question results in more answers, not less. -- kainaw™ 18:54, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree, at this point, with complete removal of the question and its replacement with the {{RD-deleted}} tag, which explains what happened to the question should the questioner come back to check. It says:

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the talk page discussion (if a link has been provided).

I agree with the argument that nothing else really seems to work, and that otherwise some completely terrible legal or medical advice will almost-inevitably be made by someone. WikiDao ☯ 19:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

In that vein, I refer to the last discussion on this topic, which took place just three weeks ago: Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 80#Another medical advice request removed - note on proper process. In that instance, a question seeking medical advice was left in place on the Desk for several hours. In that time, four consecutive editors each posted reminders that we cannot offer medical advice, and encouraged the original poster to seek professional assistance with his query. (Two of them also offered an inappropriate diagnosis in their posts, but no matter.) The fifth responder, despite all the reminders, took it upon himself to offer instructions for minor home surgery. Leaving the question in place requires every single person who uses the page to know and follow the rules; that just isn't possible to achieve on a site run by volunteers, and especially not on a page like this one, which is full of drop-in visitors. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

We should keep our current system of deleting a question, and posting a notice on this talk-page. Our current system works. It prevents unnecessary debate. When an error in judgement occurs, debate properly belongs here on this talk-page. We already have a fall-back plan, in case a question is deleted per the medical advice guidelines, but other editors disagree with the deletion. Questions can and have been restored after deletion - see my deletion from last week that was restored by another editor. On the other hand, this happens more rarely; our current system reduces the number and intensity of debates; and prevents new answers from being added while the deletion-dispute is being resolved. Nimur (talk) 19:45, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Heh, I was the one that restored it, and that was what prompted this proposal. I was curious about the question so I went looking for it, and then noticed it was an OK question. But how often does that happen? I hardly ever see restored questions, and I'm sure errors do happen. I personally feel that the risk of not answering a valid question is greater than the risk of people answering when they shouldn't - for the simple reason that other editors will criticize such things and the feedback will eventually correct the system. By having it out in the open it will help regulars get a sense for what is and isn't proper to answer. Ariel. (talk) 23:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The fact is, you are a vigilant (and concerned) editor; and so you found that question, disagreed with my removal, and restored it. We want to prevent irresponsible editors from contributing medical advice. If you, or any other responsible editor, are concerned about the deletion of medical questions, check the talk-page or the page-history diffs any time you see a "deleted" question. (Note that our current guidelines require that we leave a notice indicating that we removed something). Then, you can make your own independent judgement about the merits of the deletion; if you disagree, you can restore the question and/or discuss on the talk page. If there is significant debate, the active and concerned editors can discuss the question on a case-by-case basis. Most of the time, I only delete questions that I feel are "indisputable" requests that violate our rules; and I won't participate in edit-warring; but whether a question violates our rules (even the reasonably clear-cut Kainaw Criteria) is always going to be a subjective call. Consensus therefore depends on multiple editors. In a sense, our guidelines encourage the experienced, responsible editors to participate in such debates, while discouraging the "newcomers" who have not yet learned the established norms on the desk. But this is a soft rule - we never exclude any newcomers from participating in debate. However, we know from experience allowing questions to stay rarely improves the quality of the answers. Nimur (talk) 23:58, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Hypothetical (and very tentative) alternative proposal

This may open a huge new can of worms, and has probably been proposed earlier without success for just that reason, but is there some kind of quarantine page we could create so that editors can inspect the text of a deleted question to judge the validity of its deletion or restoration without being tempted to answer it? Ideally, such a page (or perhaps the talk page to such a page), while not secret or restricted (except maybe to autoconfirmed users), would be best known to Ref Desk regulars and least noticed by casual visitors or the posters of questionable questions. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:01, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Like Ariel's proposal, that would be like creating a debating forum when there is already one on this page when it's needed. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Shakescene: the thing you describe exists already. It's here. -- Scray (talk) 13:03, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

The questions exist in the article history for anyone to inspect. They aren't oversighted or revdeleted, just removed. If anyone wants to inspect a removed question, it is quite easy to find them. --Jayron32 17:27, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Reporting Vandalism

Hi folks, I know I am not supposed to report an article's (repeated) vandalism here or on the RefDesks, but I have inadvertently done so here. Where should I go normally for something like this? Cheers. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:15, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

There's WP:Administrator intervention against vandalism, but that's really for reporting vandals who are currently in the process of attacking Wikipedia. I don't think there's a place where you can report individual pages. According to Wikipedia:Cleaning up vandalism, you should just clean it up yourself. Always check the page history to make sure anything that got deleted in vandalism is restored. If a page has a really long history, and you can't find where the vandalism was added, or if the vandalism is so obscure and/or subtle you can't really tell whether it's vandalism or not, I guess you could report it at the relevant WikiProject's talk page (if there is one), or WP:AN/I. Pais (talk) 12:55, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Cheers - I'll bear this in mind. That particular page was a little troublesome, with it being so tiny and yet subject to so much vandalism. I wasn't sure what to do about it. Thanks for fixing the page, though. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

If the vandalism is happening repeatedly, and its coming from many IP addresses, you can request protection at WP:RFPP. --Jayron32 15:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

S'igh. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:39, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Economic advice

I think we should have a policy on not giving economic advice. Very few of the Wikipedia editors have the education to give reliable advice on investment and other economic topics. JustEase (talk) 16:27, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I think you must mean personal financial advice. I can't see many governments, central banks or think tanks asking for our advice on economic policy. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Is this really a problem? I haven't read many questions where people show up asking how to properly allocate their 401(k) investments or how much life insurance to purchase. I don't see where this is a problem that even needs addressing. Do you have any current or recent questions we could look at to see if the problem even exists??? --Jayron32 17:25, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

User:JustEase may be a vandalism-only account. See Special:Contributions/JustEase and judge for yourselves. JustEase, if you intend to contribute positively to Wikipedia, you are welcome here. Please be aware that we have historically had trouble with "newly created accounts" who express strong opinions about Reference Desk policies and that your present behavior is suspiciously similar to other troublesome editors. Your actions will speak for themselves. Nimur (talk) 23:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

JustEase has expressed a fair opinion which is not dissimilar to what I said a while ago. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 07:58, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

If you are concerned, you may want to have a look at my contributions at Nowiki and think twice. JustEase (talk) 18:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia Reference desk mentioned in another site

I came across this [4] a few weeks ago. Only a small mention and not an RS but perhaps a reminder what we do on the referenc desk is noticed by many and since it's all archived people may be seeing references to it for years to come. Was reminded of it when I read most of the answers to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#satisfaction Nil Einne (talk) 18:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Just in case anyone has trouble viewing the link, or finding the relevant part, here's the quote:

"A reader asks a serious question about orgasms on the Wikipedia Science reference desk and is then subjected to demeaning jokes and sexist banter." (link to archived Science desk question)

---Sluzzelin talk 19:12, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there seems to be a lot of that going around, unfortunately. And I wonder why less than 15% of Wikipedia users are women. Apparently a good percentage of the Ref Desk is populated by boys with a 15-year-old's sense of humor. Personally, I do wish people would start by trying to answer the question. If it can be answered sufficiently, and there is a non-obvious joke to be made, by all means, have a little fun, whatever. But on the sexual ones in particular, things quickly devolve. I have to admit finding one of the early responses to the "satisfaction" question (the one which suggests that you can "satisfy" your woman by letting her use your credit card to buy things) positively pre-historic in its sensibilities, but felt that complaining would certainly fuel the problem rather than fix it. But seeing that this has actually been picked up elsewhere makes me feel a little more emboldened to say that creating a sexist atmosphere — even one which the participants surely think is benignly sexist — is really inappropriate and unnecessary on here. We wouldn't tolerate people using outdated stereotypes for racial groups (and indeed, are quick to throw out even OK questions if they seem to imply the slightest bit of said stereotypes), but yet we seem to all have a jolly boys-night-out whenever something mentioning the word "orgasm" or the name "Dick" or other such juvenilia. Obviously some editors are juveniles and I don't fault them for that, but the vast majority strike me as a bit old for that... --Mr.98 (talk) 02:27, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps WP:TONE needs to be enforced more rigorously on the Reference Desk. While we are a lot more informal in nature than the rest of our encyclopedia, we are still part of an encyclopedia. Our grammar, diction, and writing style, not to mention the content we choose to contribute, should be suitable for an encyclopedia. If somebody asks about sexual content, race, or scatological humor, we need to evaluate whether the question is asked in good faith or if it is vandalism; and if we choose to keep the potentially objectionable question, we must present reasonable and referenced answers in a detached manner. If a user wishes to contribute content about controversial points of view, they should present encyclopedic facts, not personal opinions. Outright sexism, racism, or other undesirable behavior, should be discouraged (with warnings and eventual blocks); overt and repetitive contributions that are unencyclopedic should be dealt with via administrative intervention. Nimur (talk) 02:51, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Note though that is not really a third-party source, the content was added by a Wikipedia editor, as discussed here, However those incidents do speak for themselves, including the RD one, which I found rather embarrassing to read. I agree with the comments above, a little more maturity would be helpful. Franamax (talk) 04:37, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Cross-posted here. Franamax (talk) 05:13, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I was the first responder to the Orgasm question and think the overall response was not unreasonable. The frivolous posts only arose after fairly objective responses, and the resulting complaint of misogyny was clearly registered and signalled by our box-and-hide practice. I think the outraged geek-feminists need reminding that orgasms exist for their enjoyment well, for some of them anyway and not much else. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:15, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I was the OP of that question, and I was also the one who put the off-topic stuff in the hide box. I agree with what Mr.98 and Nimur said above. 82.43.92.41 (talk) 11:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

@OP, I think your opinion matters more than anyone else's. Do you feel that you were "subjected to demeaning" at the Ref. Desk ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

(EC with some weird data-loss problem...) I agree with Nimur above. Although I have my doubts whether the "how long to satisfy women in bed" question was entirely in good faith, it's still a reasonable question and reasonable answers could be (and were) given. I'll also note that Bugs, who essentially kicked off and sustained the ridiculous responses in the thread from a year ago, was in fact one of the reasonable respondents this time around. In general, I've seen way too much jokiness for my liking lately. A recent example was this question about leaf blowers where I honestly had to wonder if there was some in-joke I wasn't getting. I suppose at this point I should be glad we didn't get a bunch of replies that played off the dual meaning of "blow". Matt Deres (talk) 15:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Mr.98 saw one meaning. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:45, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

D'oh! Thanks (I think) for pointing out that I need to increase my reading skills (and cynicism). Sigh... Matt Deres (talk) 17:08, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec) If I saw that sentence, in any form, anywhere else in Wikipedia, I would delete it as well; and I would report the contributor with a user-warning template. Mr. 98's judgement to remove that line was solid, in that specific instance. Why do you think that your contribution was encyclopedic, Cuddlyable3? Nimur (talk) 17:11, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Nimur, it's a puzzle, no peeking!

A leaf blower is a new gadget that irritates People want sex People breeding more and more people is bad for the planet People want sex People breeding more and more people who run leaf blowers is especially bad for the planet People want sex Fellatio is an ancient art that pleases People want sex Fellatio doesn't breed people People want sex Fellatio doesn't pollute the environment People want sex Fellatio doesn't waste oil People want sex Fellatio needs no industrial technology People want sex The Wikipedia article about Fellatio shows people having more fun than than the one about Leaf blower People want sex

...so which kind of blowing is the environmentally friendly kind? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)