Wikipedia talk:Verifiability

What counts as a reliable source

Following long discussions above, the idea arose to rephrase the third paragraph of WP:V#What counts as a reliable source as follows:

Current policy

Proposal

Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science. But they are not the only reliable sources in such areas. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria.

Many topic areas are covered by a significant body of scholarly literature, such as peer-reviewed publications, and books by academic presses. Articles in these topic areas should aim to summarise the current status of knowledge and research reflected in that literature. Articles should present all majority- and significant-minority published positions, and may complement any available scholarly sources by drawing on non-academic sources, particularly high-quality mainstream publications, to reflect public discourse around such topics. High-quality mainstream publications include books from respected publishing houses, mainstream newspapers, magazines, journals, and quality electronic media; these are also preferred sources in topic areas that are not subject to academic research.

Perceived failings of the present wording include:

1. The phrase "academic and peer-reviewed publications" in the present wording is awkward. Peer-reviewed publications are one type of academic source.
2. The present wording states that "academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources". Some editors feel that any wording that describes one category of sources as "usually most reliable" tends to encourage wikilawyering, especially with the objective to exclude media sources. Furthermore it's been pointed out that the quality of academic sources is variable; a meticulously researched and fact-checked article in The New Yorker for example will generally be of far higher value than an obscure conference paper by an unknown academic.
3. Peer-reviewed academic publications, described as "usually the most reliable", are very often primary sources advocating new ideas that have not yet been tested established in the discipline.
4. The present wording fudges the issue by implying that media sources are just as good as scholarly sources for scholarly topics, leading to media sources being pressed into the service for jobs that should really be left to scholarly sources.

Perceived benefits of the proposed wording include:

1. Fixes the "academic and peer-reviewed publications" phrase.
2. Avoids the "most reliable" wording, but states clearly that articles on topics that have an associated academic literature should summarise the status of published scholarly research.
3. Makes clear that high-quality mainstream publications are reliable sources for giving an overview of the public discourse that takes place in the media – including public discourse around topics that are subject to scientific research. Some editors feel that being able to describe this public discourse is a vital NPOV concern. At the same time, this wording avoids giving the impression that media sources are good sources for describing the status of the actual scientific research – which has also often caused disputes, because the media sometimes report scholarly findings incorrectly, or dress up their reports in a way designed to maximise readers' attention.

Please discuss! --JN466 09:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

• Oppose - Please see my previous comments (1), (2), and (3). --Bob K31416 (talk) 09:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - The new version conflates source reliability with neutral point of view. By including every policy in every paragraph, we make it impossible to edit the policy, because any change will require every paragraph in every policy to be edited for any change. Jc3s5h (talk) 10:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

  I'm not sure I buy this argument, or if I do, then I'd start to think that Verifiability needs to be rewritten broadly. Verifiability (in its mindlessly simple, literalistic sense) is a no-brainer - If something has been published somewhere and we can cite it, it's verifiable. period. The minute we start talking about issues like reliability we've started entering into NPOV territory, since reliability seems to mean "how much trust and weight we should put on information coming from a particular source?", and that is a neutrality issue, not a verification issue. That means that roughly 3/4 of wp:V is cross-polination from wp:NPOV. do you see what I'm saying? --Ludwigs2 02:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

  Actually, Ludwigs, I think the bigger problem is that WP:RS isn't a core policy. Verifiability says if its published and you can cite it, ok. NOR says don't make it up, either. NPOV says represent it all fairly in proportion to its significance. But RS says what's significant. I don't see how to close that loop without bringing RS up to the same level of policy. Ocaasi (talk) 02:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

  Yeah, well... reliability isn't core policy (IMO) because it's such an intrinsically suspicious concept. I swear, on grumpy days I think of wp:RS as wikipedia's Animal Farm moment ("all sources are equal, but some sources are more equal than others.."). The idea behind RS isn't bad, mind you - even though we're not supposed to evaluate 'ideas' there's a certain logic to evaluating the sources that present 'ideas', because that way we can keep ideas in their proper prominence without actually evaluating them ourselves. But somehow the logic shifted: what used to be "Determine good sources and let them establish prominence of ideas" became "Define what sources are good so that we can use them to establish prominence of ideas", and RS started getting used as a kind of article siege engine. very strange... --Ludwigs2 06:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't think this achieves its aim of being less prone to abuse or misunderstanding: It is longer and more complicated, and this can cause more problems than it solves. Also, the implied aim of trying to remove all hints of preferences between types of sources, is probably going to far. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support - however... Jc3s5h makes a good point, but, given the discussions above, it has become clear that this policy needs a clearer statement about maintaining a NPOV. Our policies do not exist in limbo. Each affects the other. And because of this, we already have a situation where a change to one policy will require a change in others (and yes, this does make it difficult to change any of them... that is a good thing... it ensures that any major changes really have been thought through thoroughly and really do have community consensus).

That said... I would suggest we keep JN's paragraph, but follow it up with something along the lines of the current text. What I really like about JN's paragraph is that it clearly explains how the context of what is being discussed at a particular point in an article impacts the reliability of sources. It explains how different types of sources will be best for different types of statements... an academic source is best for a statement as to what current academic thinking is, while a media source will be best for a statement about media coverage of the topic, etc. Once we say that, then we can talk about the best source within that type (ie finding the best academic sources for statements about academic thinking, and the best media sources for statements about media coverage.) It clarifies that academic sources are not in competition with media sources... because they are best used in different contexts and in support of different types of statements. Blueboar (talk) 12:35, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Blueboar's remarks seem very reasonable to me. Relevance of context is important. Just not sure the current draft is better than the old version.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I suppose what I am trying to say is that JN's proposed paragraph may not be better as a replacement for the old paragraph... but it improves the policy as a whole, so should be retained. Blueboar (talk) 13:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

If the new paragraph is to be added (without deleting the present text) I think it should be added under the "Reliable sources and neutrality" heading, rather than "What counts as a reliable source". The section under discussion is about evaluating individual sources; evaluating the constellation of sources for an article is outside the scope of this section.

Also, I am concerned that if NPOV considerations are sprinkled throughout this policy, then editors who deletete material from articles will be apt to refer to this policy, when they really should be referring to the NPOV policy. Another editor will probably revert the deletion as unjustified, leading to needlessly complicated edit histories and talk pages. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The thing is... While JN's paragraph may be influenced by WP:NPOV, what it is addressing is a WP:V issue... it is talking about what types of sources are best and most reliable within a given context. That is a WP:Verifiability issue. When an article discusses the public discourse on a topic it is best to use public (ie media) sources. When an article discusses the academic discourse on a topic, then academic sources are best. Whether an article should discuss the public (or academic) discourse on the topic and how you discuss it may be NPOV issues... but once you discuss it, properly sourcing that discussion becomes a WP:V issue. Blueboar (talk) 14:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

(as a side note... I personally think this is another example of why we need a unified policy that merges WP:NPOV and WP:V (and WP:NOR)... these policies are so interwoven that to discuss changes to one almost always requires a discussion of the others. But, since we don't have a unified policy... on with the debate). Blueboar (talk) 14:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that inter-policy mentions here are both incidental and also a good thing. I don't think I like the idea of a unified policy. As a bit of an anti-federalist, we help ensure against mass corruption by keeping the launch codes separate from the key separate from the briefcase. I think if we put together a 'unified' policy, it should just be for convenience and just be a transclusion of the three actual policies. I see no reason why new editors shouldn't be able to access THE policy page, where everything they need to know to be reasonably successful is actually on a single page. Ocaasi (talk) 01:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I am sure that this whole effort is absolutely sincere and well intentioned and that all the users involved here are highly experienced. But, if this is a fundamental change, should we get a word from J?-Civilizededucation^talk 03:36, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

JN466, what do you mean "Peer-reviewed publications are one type of academic source." I've had one editor argue at great length that "peer-reviewed" and "academic" were independent qualities. That is, that some (or at least one) reliable sources were "peer-reviewed" without being "academic". Jayjg ^(talk) 05:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed that the two terms are over-lapping, but one is not a sub-set of the other. What the current text says is that the overlap of the two terms is generally pretty reliable. Peer review is generally a fairly good type of fact checking and academic sources are often reliable. That does not seem wrong to me as a generalization. I think this is another point where trying to go beyond generalization and cover all possibilities with a more complex text may not help to avoid the problems being mentioned. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, could you give me an example of a source that is peer-reviewed, but not a scholarly source? --JN466 13:13, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

One editor I know has argued at great length that jogg.info is exactly that. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It's listed on university library pages [1][2][3][4][5][6]. It's cited in academic books [7][8] It's a new field of research, but I would have no hesitation in including it under the umbrella of scholarly sources. --JN466 16:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jayen466, being listed is not the same as being reliable, and being mentioned is not the same as being cited. Websites run by non-experts who work professionally in other fields don't really qualify as "academic". In any event, the point was that the individual in question insisted that the website was not academic, but was peer-reviewed. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• Jayjg is referring to something like a discussion he recently had with me.[9] For the record I never said that source was not "scholarly". I said it was not "academic" in the sense that there is no University programme for that field of scholarship (genetic genealogy). More to the point, I said that this fact is separable from being a reliable source using the same types of relevant facts you have cited, i.e. by showing what types of sources cite it as reliable, which includes strong academic ones. BTW there is also a positive discussion of it as a source for some types of information in a major genetics journal.[10]
• Background. If I understand Jayjg correctly, which I may not, he wanted to remove all mention of the source because of the way it was once used on the Khazars article, as a secondary source about a theory concerning Ashkenazi ancestry being partly Eastern European. (Primary sources now source the same theory on Khazars.) When the subject then came up at RS/N he jumped in and tried to bulldoze people out of it calling himself un-involved. He latter claimed on his talk page that there had been a consensus of uninvolved editors taking his position, which was certainly not true in many ways. Summary of facts: [11]
• Anyway, here is an interesting point which does connect to policy wordings, and to your response: at one point in recent discussions Jayjg against the relevance of citations in good sources by saying that neither WP:RS or WP:V "mention anything about being cited in reliable sources, they talk instead about being published in reliable sources".[12] When I tried to discuss this rather sophisticated point on RSN he jumped the thread, implying that the thread was not about what it seemed to be about, so the thread died. It is an interesting question whether this is what the policies intend though in my opinion. ?
• OTOH the specific discussion Jayjg refers to above was from the last argument Jayjg was trying on his talk page before he gave up.[13] By that stage of the "discussion" I was only "allowed" to answer yes or no or he would delete from my posts, but he was apparently trying to build a truly remarkable argument that anything which says it has "peer review" for fact checking, and calls itself a "journal", but which is not the journal of an academic profession, is pretending to be something it is not, simply because of the use of these two terms which are normally academic. This appears to involve arguing that what appears to be a good type of fact checking can be assumed to be a sign of fraud. To make this argument requires the original research, so to speak, of claiming that academics who cite the journal and write about it have been tricked, whereas one Wikipedian has not been tricked, and can therefore over-rule them.
• So.... Is the use of policy in that discussion we had consistent with how the policy is intended to be used? To me it certainly did not seem so.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Andrew, we're discussing WP:V, not your lengthy, self-serving, and fatally flawed comments and "summaries of facts"/revisionist histories, regarding your attempts to get a website on which you have been "published" accepted as a reliable source. I've said this before, stop talking about me, and focus on the subject of this page, which is the wording of WP:V. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Not sure how you can justify that ad hominem aside in this context Jayjg. You have just gone out of your way to mention me and your recent discussions with me several times in a row, apparently because you think it has some sort of relevance? If it had no real relevance you should perhaps not have brought it up. If it was worth bringing up, then it is at the very least worth avoiding errors in your summary, and there would seem to be no harm in making the examples more clear and accurate?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Andrew, I did not mention your name, nor the source (until specifically asked), much less the dispute itself. I simply pointed out that at least one editor insisted a source could be peer-reviewed but not academic, which was both entirely accurate and relevant to the specific wording proposed for that section of WP:V. Focus specifically on WP:V and the wording of the section here, not other editors. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

If nothing else, it's a useful illustration of the sort of disputes editors get into over sources. But Jayjg, if your argument with Andrew was that JOGG is not reliable, then this makes your point above, that there might be peer-reviewed sources outside academia (which then would also be part of the "most reliable" category), moot. --JN466 18:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean, what would make what moot? I don't think there are real non-academic "peer-reviewed" sources, at least not in the sense people typically mean "peer-reviewed", but I've seen others arguing there are. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

We were discussing the wording "Academic and peer-reviewed publications" above. If you feel (as I do) that there are no real non-academic "peer-reviewed" sources, then the wording "academic and peer-reviewed publications" describes two sets of sources, the second one of which is wholly included in the first. It is logically comparable to saying, "American and Californian publications are ...", or "Mammals and guinea pigs are", which is logically untidy and somewhat tautological, as Californian publications are already included in American publications, just as "guinea pigs" are included in "mammals". It would seem more appropriate to describe peer-reviewed publications as an example of academic publiations, just like guinea pigs are an example of mammals, and Californian publications are an example of American publications. Does this make sense? --JN466 09:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, "academic" and "peer-reviewed" are definitely not synonyms. Normally one would consider the latter to be a subset of the former - and, in general, the most-reliable type of the former. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Would you agree with me then that the phrase "academic and peer-reviewed publications" is poorly worded, given that the latter are a subset of the former? --JN466 15:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support the Proposal: though I understand the objections. I'm just not happy with the current wording. For one, it's just plain wrong - academic and peer-reviewed publications are very often primary sources advocating brand-spanking new ideas, and while those ideas usually have a whole lot going for them, they're still not the kind of tried and true and true knowledge wikipedia is supposed to reflect. The proposal, at least, isn't quite so bluntly wrong. --Ludwigs2 06:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I've added that point to the perceived failings of the present policy wording, above (please feel free to reword). --JN466 13:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - The current wording is much more clear and straightforward. The proposed replacement seems at pains to avoid creating any actual criteria for selecting verifiable sources, and instead seems more interested in NPOV. The one exception is that it states that "High-quality mainstream publications" are the "preferred sources in topic areas that are not subject to academic research". Which subjects, prey tell, are not subject to academic research? Kaldari (talk) 21:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Playing around with it a bit

I do not say this resolves it, but here is another approach:-

Current policy	JN466 Proposal	Another idea
Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science. But they are not the only reliable sources in such areas. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria.	Many topic areas are covered by a significant body of scholarly literature, such as peer-reviewed publications, and books by academic presses. Articles in these topic areas should aim to summarise the current status of knowledge and research reflected in that literature. Articles should present all majority- and significant-minority published positions, and may complement any available scholarly sources by drawing on non-academic sources, particularly high-quality mainstream publications, to reflect public discourse around such topics. High-quality mainstream publications include books from respected publishing houses, mainstream newspapers, magazines, journals, and quality electronic media; these are also preferred sources in topic areas that are not subject to academic research.	Different topic areas are covered by different types of publications, some being more reliable than others in each field. For example in many areas peer-reviewed academic publications will be the best, and sources cited by those sources can also be considered potentially reliable, depending on context. On the other hand, even in those fields other sources can also be used if they can be shown to have a reputation for fact checking appropriate for the field. Wikipedia articles should attempt to present a WP:neutral summary of all majority- and significant-minority published positions, taking its main bearings from the best sources in that field.

Does this help in any way? To explain my bias, my main concern with JN466's approach is that it seems to attempt to give a listing of all possibilities, which I think can lead to more problems than it can solve. I have therefore tried to write more generally, but more simply. (Which has its own dangers of course.) Maybe even if my version is not considered good, it still helps find a better way forward.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the hand-wringing required to make it less explicit leaves it a bit of a marshmallow; I don't know quite what it's saying. The best idea, IMO, is the last sentence--that articles should aim to use the best sources available for a given subject, especially where high-quality, peer-reviewed scholarly sources exist, but that all sources with a reputation for accuracy should be considered and used where they fit the context. Ocaasi (talk) 11:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Good point. It raises the question, doesn't it, about whether that is in fact the basic subject of the paragraph, and if not what?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I think you're getting at the key idea, though, which is that whatever the best sources are, we should aspire to use them--that this will often include peer-reviewed and academic sources, but it can also mean high quality journalism or other material with a reputation for accuracy. As for your general approach, I think rewriting the same ideas in a new way is very helpful to break up a logjam. Ocaasi (talk) 11:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I was trying to strip it down to essentials, at least for this discussion. You could almost say that I am thinking that the first and last sentences, ignoring everything in between, is meant to be the "core" of what is intended. How far off is it?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

One thing that is key to me, and which I wouldn't want to lose, is the notion that if there is a significant body of academic research on a topic, our article should describe the current status and findings of that research. The article may or may not do more than that – it may describe the public media discourse surrounding that topic, any controversies, its impact on politics, health policies, business, its cultural reception and so forth – but if there is a scholarly literature, we should aim to present what it says. --JN466 13:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Sticking to minimalism for now, here is something based on my first and last sentences plus something based on the first sentence of the current policy which kinds of touches on your point (but which I thought you did not like):-

Different topic areas are covered by different types of publications, and within each topic area some of these sources are more reliable than others. Wikipedia articles often need to use several types of source because they should attempt to present a WP:neutral summary of all majority- and significant-minority published positions. The best sources are those which most helpful in judging which other sources can be considered reliable. For clearly defined academic topics, academic peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources. But they are not the only reliable sources in such areas.

Obviously I am "playing" with options like this partly to help people think about what the main purpose of this paragraph is actually meant to be. Basically is seems to be: "Some sources are better than others, and these should be used most of all, whatever they happen to be for any given topic." So why not just that?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

There's something (IMO) that's getting twisted out of true here. Reliability is not meant to imply 'accuracy' or 'correctness', which are universals. Reliability implies 'conventionality' or 'orthodoxy', and those are very contextual. In most cases the two are more-or-less synonymous, but in some cases (particularly with new and fringe ideas), topics may be accurate but not orthodox, or the orthodox view on the topic may be entirely inaccurate. Examples:

• New treatments that appear in a medical journal, which have strong research results but haven't yet spread through the discipline as a conventional practice.
• Alternative medical practices which have long histories but are untested by modern medical science, so that the orthodox viewpoint is not the (assumedly more accurate, if it existed) western-medical viewpoint.

In my view we should really always be presenting the 'orthodox' or 'conventional' viewpoint of topics (with respect to the topic) and introducing 'accurate' or 'correct' sources merely to maintain proper weight and perspective, but either way I think we need to make the distinction between these two issues clear. I need to think for a bit about the best way to do that, though...--Ludwigs2 15:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Right, but aren't the 'best' sources the very ones that typically espouse the orthodox viewpoint with most authority? Ocaasi (talk) 15:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Well yes, but there is another problem with what Ludwigs2 says, I think, which is that mere orthodoxy is not the same as reliability. One can have a reputation for being reliable but not be orthodox. The sources who do not fit are the significant minorities. An author who gets respectful reviews, even though a field finds it hard to treat him or her as orthodox, need not be eliminated from WP.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

lol - that's not a problem, that's part of my thesis. To take the example I occasionally get tangled up in, Traditional Chinese Medicine has something like 1500 years of practice and commentary, is a complex self-consistent theory that works well enough for what it is, and is largely unstudied by western methodologies (for an assortment of reasons). And yet, there are still editors who insist that TCM should only be discussed on wikipedia through the lens of what few western studies there are (because the western medical studies are assumed to be 'reliable'). That's bull. The most reliable source for describing TCM's practices and theories are in the large body of 'orthodox' TCM material, and western medical sources only have a place in the discussion where they refute particular claims or are required to keep advocates from presenting TCM as the dominant medical paradigm - they are not at all reliable for describing TCM, since they have not to any great extent examined TCM. Do you se what I'm saying? --Ludwigs2 23:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think so, and I doubt we disagree on the facts of such things, only how to describe it. But this is a wording question. Chinese medicine is not the type of case I had in mind. The type of case I have in mind might be for example the Multiregional origin of modern humans, which is a serious scientific theory that happens not to be the leading one at the moment. Chinese Medicine may or may not be considered unreliable as medicine generally by people who are expert in other types of medicine, but you are right that it should be in Wikipedia as an notable body of learning concerning which there can be publications which are reliable or unreliable about Chinese medicine itself. Western scientific fields, including medical science, aim as part of their own conscious aims, try not to aim at consistency with tradition or orthodoxy. For this reason, scientific fields accept theories as good science, "reliable", which are not orthodox. They do not have "heresies" (sorry, I can not think of another word) like traditional bodies of knowledge can. If an individual were to develop an alternative version of Chinese medicine, this would have to become notable on its own to be worth putting in WP, whereas if it was not notable, we'd probably have to treat as an unreliable or wrong type of Chinese Medicine, even if its results in terms of actual cures were approximately as successful. I hope this makes sense.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

well we're talking about different types of cases then, and ought to accommodate both. Either that, or I'm just not understanding you... It's one thing when you have two theories within a particular discipline that are intentionally competing to be the dominant theorem, but it's another thing when you have incommensurate practices relating to the same general activity. two competing theories will naturally be subsumed together with one as dominant; incommensurate practices really can't be. put another way, multiregional and monoregional theories of human origins are part of the same discussion within the same discipline, and so naturally compare; things like TCM are simply disconnected from western scientific medicine - there's very little in the way of cross-communication, and so it makes no sense to discuss TCM in terms of a supposedly dominant medical paradigm: it needs to be described in its own terms and then contextualized with respect to western medicine. that's what I mean by using the orthodox viewpoint. Western medicine is arguably more scientific and reliable than TCM (satisfying the 'accuracy' sense of reliable), but western medicine cannot give an effective description of TCM because the models are just too different. --Ludwigs2 02:59, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like we understand each other now. But not sure what this would mean in terms of this policy page.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

A thought... I think part of the problem here is that the current wording is overly broad in its scope. It talks about the relative reliability of sources at a macro level... in terms of entire "topics". However, relative reliability often needs to be determined at the micro level... in terms of specific statements. While academic sources should be preferred for academic topics at the macro level (ie for sourcing the topic)... when we get to the micro level (sourcing a statement), a non-academic source may be the most reliable (that depends on what the specific statement is). Blueboar (talk) 16:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Very good point. I was thinking about this when playing around with this. For example say you are editing on a scientific subject but there is a famous funny story about what Einstein said about it. Each bit of a source can be a different context for sourcing. But I left it because I thought "topic" can be "micro"? But then maybe the wording should make that clear?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

That is why I wrote "Articles in these topic areas should aim to summarise the current status of knowledge and research reflected in that literature." This does not demand that every single source cited be an academic source, as long as the article correctly describes the status of academic research. --JN466 21:31, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The "another idea" doesn't give particularly clear guidance at all; it's mostly "maybe this is reliable, maybe that is, depends on the circumstances". Certainly not an improvement on the current wording. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• I am aware that we are currently maintaining the present policy wording against a slight (11:8) majority of commentators on this page (including an arbitrator) who would rather replace it with Proposal 5. We may well come up with something better than that proposal eventually, but in the meantime I would ask some of those who have not given their verdict on that earlier proposal to do so now, so we have a clearer idea whether there is a consensus that proposal 5, while not perfect, is at least better than the present wording, and gets us a step closer to where we would like to be. --JN466 16:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It appears that the "current version" has changed since it was first quoted for comparison with proposal 5. Regards, --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, although the changes seem to affect word order only. --JN466 18:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Just a general remark regarding these deliberations and the present state of policy. I felt that policy wasn't the place to rank or give guidance on which reliable sources are better, but rather to discuss that in a guideline or essay. In addition to reasons I expressed before, this is consistent with a general approach to policy that I think should be followed, which is keep it clear and simple. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

That's a reasonable point—although the present wording, of course, also ranks the sources by saying "Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science." And I could never figure out why we single out "history, medicine and science". --JN466 18:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I understand that, and policy can be improved, for example to make it more clear and simple. However, I think that policy should be changed in small ways over time. This avoids problems of losing the good work over the years of many editors and avoids running around in circles and introducing new problems, some subtle and some not so subtle.

With this in mind, let me reiterate a suggestion for a simplifying change in the paragraph under discussion that I made previously which simply removed the ranking of reliable sources. Before continuing, please click here and read my previous remarks which included the simplifying proposed version which I will copy to here.

"Examples of reliable sources are academic and peer-reviewed publications. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 19:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

That looks better than any of the other proposals I've seen so far. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Looks fine to me too, Bob; except for

• my longstanding point about "academic and peer-reviewed publications" (peer-reviewed sources are as a rule academic sources, and I've even seen editors interpret the present wording to mean that sources should be academic and peer-reviewed (because they wanted to exclude a book by an academic publisher) and
• that university-level textbooks also seem to form part of "academic" rather than "non-academic" sources.

The rest can be sorted at the guideline level, as you said. --JN466 02:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

This particular proposal is only regarding removal of ranking of reliable sources in this section of policy. Let me state for the record that what I am proposing does not preclude any other changes that you would like to consider if this change is accepted and incorporated into the article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I am all for simplification, which is what I think this is. I understand Jayen's concern but the simple "Example are ... and ..." is also rather neutral and not as easy as some wordings to abuse, I think.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, Bob, I understand. Little steps ... --JN466 09:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Current policy should stay. My personal experience is that peer-reviewed academic publications are the most reliable, all else being equal, naturally. Reason is that scientific and academic types are generally specialists, with specific background and training in the field. Reporters tend to be more generalists. One key is that newspapers, magazines, etc. get (e.g.) their science news from the scientific literature, but not vice-versa. Nucleophilic (talk) 02:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Re "My personal experience is that peer-reviewed academic publications are the most reliable, all else being equal, naturally." - If that was put in the policy, i.e. the statement that "Peer-reviewed academic publications are the most reliable, all else being equal", how would someone apply that, since it wouldn't be clear what "all else" is? I feel that a good extended discussion of the merits and problems of various types of reliable sources should be in a guideline or essay and we should strive to make policy clear and simple. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Just expressing my completely-WP:OR opinion, not suggestng wording, which is fine as it is. Nucleophilic (talk) 04:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The present wording of the policy is, "Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources...". I'm not sure it is fine since the "usually" part of the statement isn't very definite and may not be very helpful in practice. From your first message, it seems that you perceive it to be fine because you have in your mind the condition "all else being equal" which seems to have a meaning for you which isn't clear to me. We should try to make policy simple and clear when we have a choice. I think the relative merits of different types of reliable sources should be given in a guideline or essay where the subject can be given the attention it deserves to more clearly and accurately portray the principles involved.

Going back to something you mentioned in your first message. "One key is that newspapers, magazines, etc. get (e.g.) their science news from the scientific literature, but not vice-versa." The news media also gets its science information from interviewing scientists in the field who interpret the information in scientific articles for reporters. In some cases, maybe those scientists interpret the science articles better than some Wikipedia editors? --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Discussion above continued

These are merely practical real-world "rules of thumb" for making decisions in the face of incomplete information, nothing more. However flawed, they are all we can reasonably have. An old saw goes "The race is not always to the swift, nor the contest to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

E.g., a reasonable rule of thumb is that material produced by defined experts and then vetted thru the academic publication mill is likely better than, e.g., a newspaper article by someone who never looked at the subject before and who probably got his information from (say ) a press release. This does not mean that "academic" sources are always better than popular literature sources, but merely "that's the way to bet". If I could be sure of stuff, I'd be a billionaire. Nucleophilic (talk) 13:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

It's the writers of that portion of the policy that had incomplete information. There's less reason for editors of an article to "bet" because they have more information. Consider the example you gave regarding "a newspaper article by someone who never looked at the subject before and who probably got his information from (say ) a press release." Suppose that press release came from the director-general of CERN? And regarding the other part of your example, "material produced by defined experts and then vetted thru the academic publication mill", suppose it was a study of the effects of a medical device on just a few patients. Would that information be a reliable characterization of the device?

So a general comment regarding a ranking of reliable sources doesn't seem useful since its usefulness would be obviated by the specifics of a particular case at an article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure. Again, "The race is not always to the swift.... ". But what if that's all you have to go on ? The real world is full of circumstances where people use established rules of thumb in the absence of complete information. Physicians, who often make critical decisions in the face of incomplete information, call such rules of thumb "aphorisms". Things like "All bleeding stops".

Anyway, the case you describe, a press-release from Cern, easily qualifies as an academic source, assuming it gets correctly-passed on in the popular literature. If it differed from other WP:RS academic sources, WP:NPOV would require that all get reported. IMHO, the websites and official communications of major museums, research institutes, professional organizations, etc. also qualify as academic sources. So if you want to specify this, I have no complaints. Might even do it myself, if there are no objections.

BTW, over on talk:nobel prize controversies is a case where a New York Times reporter (!) gets the facts about a Nobel dispute wrong, arguably deliberately. A Nobel dispute allegedly-related to erectile dysfunction drugs is "sexier" than the real dispute, omitting a fourth discoverer. So does the popular literature get distorted. True, the academic literature also gets distorted, this being the real world. But less. Nucleophilic (talk) 15:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Re "The real world is full of circumstances where people use established rules of thumb in the absence of complete information." - It's also full of circumstances where generalities are used in the presence of contrary information to make wrong decisions, e.g. not hiring a well qualified job applicant because the applicant has been stereotyped by gender or race. Please note that I am in favor of giving guidance to editors regarding evaluating reliable sources, just not with generalities that may be misused. As I mentioned, discussion of the merits and problems of various types of reliable sources would best be done with more and better explanation in a guideline or essay. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure. But those are irrational stereotypes, "used in the presence of contrary information". They are not useful and practical Rules of Thumb. But sometimes ethnicity is useful-- e.g., our physician example above would know "high" ( red-headed and freckled ) Keltic ancestry is associated with melanoma, while being of African ancestry tends to exclude it. Nucleophilic (talk) 16:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

All of which is why the policy should give broad guidance but still leave room for intelligent editors to apply specific judgments given the unique context of each article. Ocaasi (talk) 17:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I think what you meant is that the policy should give broad worthwhile guidance, not just any broad guidance. So far, I don't think it's worthwhile and may be a distraction from the specifics of a particular article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Again, these are guidelines and rules of thumb, nothing more. Like all such, they are adaptable to circumstances, within the general guidelines of WP:NPOV, etc., naturally. In fact, I am having difficulty understanding how our viewpoints differ much. Nucleophilic (talk) 17:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Re "In fact, I am having difficulty understanding how our viewpoints differ much." - Maybe it would help if you summarized what you thought my viewpoint was. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

You certainly know what you think better than I do. Perhaps you could summarize it for us all. Nucleophilic (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

From your remarks you may have been misunderstanding what my viewpoint is and your summarizing it would help identify the problem in communication. You certainly have the option of not complying, so thanks for the previous discussion and that will be the end of it for me. For now, I'll leave it to other editors to decide what to do regarding my suggested change of the first two sentences of the paragraph. Regards, --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:18, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

All the proposals I've seen so far seem to basically be replacing the established criteria for evaluating verifiable sources with a vague watered-down reiteration of the NPOV policy. Kaldari (talk) 21:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Cannot be superseded

Nucleophilic has several times added the following, so I'm bring it here for discussion:

The principles upon which these policies are based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines.

• Oppose. This was in the policy a long time ago, but was removed after consensus developed that it was inappropriate. It's also not clear which of the points in the policy are to be regarded as the "principles" that cannot be superseded. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. The wording is apparently based on some wording added to a Meta page in 2005. He's been trying to add it to WP:NOT for several days, and more recently to WP:NPOV. To be quite frank, en-wiki policies are typically far more polished and well thought through than policies on other wikis, even meta. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's just to say that what is written here is not always followed. It doesn't belong on the policy page. If there are enforcement issues that people are not addressing, noticeboards/RfC would be the place. Neither the U.S. constitution, nor any legal document, has a passage saying 'This law is abused and ignored periodically, which is bad'. Ocaasi (talk) 05:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
• Query for more information Long time on wikipedia, but fairly new to the policy pages. I have apparently misjudged the situation. Could someone direct me to where this policy was rescinded here on wikipedia so I can catch up. IIRC, it was the policy last time I read it, some years ago. Admittedly a lifetime on WP. Nucleophilic (talk) 05:55, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Nucleophilic, you've made just over 200 article edits to Wikipedia, and 430 edits in total. Since mid-September, you've mostly tried to re-write policies and guidelines. I'm not sure what you mean by "a lifetime on WP", but don't you think it would be prudent to get a little more experience, say, writing articles, or working in various other areas of Wikipedia, before trying to re-write all the policies and guidelines? Jayjg ^(talk) 06:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Er, by "lifetime on wikipedia" I meant that the several years since I last read this specific policy statement here on en.wikipedia is a virtual lifetime on wikipedia in terms of change. This accounts for my ignorance of the change in policy, for which I apologize.
    • As I note and you reiterate, I am relatively new to playing an active role in the policy pages. True, I have paid some attention to policy in the past and reasonably-believe I know it in some detail. E.g., I knew about the above little bomb on wikimedia, when nobody else here seems to be aquainted with it. So your "little more experience" statement seems rather misplaced, if not slightly, and doubtless unintentially, uncivil. So as not to seem uncivil myself, I will repeat what many here have said- we all continue to thank you for your years of service to wikipedia.
    • Anyway, I would love to read up on the exact process by which this change in policy happened. Perhaps you can point me to the sources. As you know, I have been here off and on since 2006 under my present handle. Not many editors stay quite this long. Lurked and posted under ip number for a year or two before that. Nucleophilic (talk) 14:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Maybe this is the previous statement?[14] "The principles upon which these policies are based are negotiable only at the Foundation level." --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - No good reason for this given. Policies should say what is relevant and not filled with gobblydegook. Irrelevant pomposity. Dmcq (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Stated-simply, the issue is whether a simple local concensus can override the three pillars of wikipeda. Hardly gobbledegook. The rest is a link to a quote from Wikimedia, the umbrella for the wikipedia empire. There seems to be general agreement that this also was the policy on Wikipeda. Unfortunately, nobody has provided information on exactly how and when it was rescinded. I.e., technically, it may still be policy here. This is a big enough change that it should have generated quite a sh!tstorm. BTW, we also thank SV for her years of service. Nucleophilic (talk) 16:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Nucleophilic, what do you mean by "technically"? It appears to pre-suppose the existence of something above the community of Wikipedia, which can over-rule it's self-rule. I am supposing you are aware of WP:IAR and WP:POLICY? Those might be the places which explain what you are asking about.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Stated simply yes, the community could in principle agree anything except where the foundation specifically puts in its own policy. It hasn't on this subject. Please see WP:POLICY section on derivation. I'm pretty certain the foundation would step in if it went too far off the rails as far as they are concerned, but in essence wikipedia is self governing in its normal running. And it decided long ago that statement was unnecessary and removed it. Dmcq (talk) 16:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

See also [[15]] which states what the foundation expected from wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 16:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Re "Stated-simply, the issue is whether a simple local concensus can override the three pillars of wikipeda." - Yes according to WP:IAR. Policy isn't perfect. It's created by basically the same type of open editing environment as the hypothetical case you mentioned for an article. You might consider whether quasi-consensus can produce a flawed policy just like it could produce a flawed article, through alliances, gaming the system, etc. and simply the limited ability of us editors. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Given that the 3 pillars are interpreted/implemented by consensus, what operational meaning would this have? I CANn think of abuses that this would have. e.g. one person claiming that, per his interpretation , consensus violated this proposed new clause, and thus his opinion should trump the decision. North8000 (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose, having had my concerns answered. Nucleophilic (talk) 17:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• You're opposing yourself? :) Nice to see someone do that after further investigation. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• You mean editors here sometimes persist long after a point becomes moot ? I'm shocked, shocked !! Nucleophilic (talk) 19:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• "everybody is to leave here immediately" --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• Related note: this line existed in NPOV alone for a while, I went ahead and deleted it from there based on the discussion here, since the paragraphs involved are otherwise identical and should be consistent between all core policies. Gigs (talk) 02:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Gigs, if I'm not misreading this, the discussion above was only about not to include Nucleophilic's addition, not the initial line itself. I'm not sure there is the same consensus to remove the line you did. I think it needs a separate discussion; for example, do we not want to give the core 3 supremacy, is there something which can supersede them?, etc. Ocaasi (talk) 04:13, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, the line only existed in NPOV, not in the other two core policies, it makes no sense to include it in only one. And yes, there are things that supersede the three core policies, like copyright violations, libel, threats, in some instances, BLP, IAR, etc. The core policies can't be completely suspended by a local consensus, but if you'll notice the header box at the top, the word "normally" links to "use common sense". No policy or set of policies on here is absolute. Gigs (talk) 21:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I suggest we remoe the line from NPOV (for consistency) and reinsert it on one of the pages that discusses the core principles as a unit. --Ludwigs2 23:17, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The line has been restored to WP:NPOV and there is a discussion on the talk page there. Gigs (talk) 04:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I think this discussion may need to be shifted over to NPOV and re-argued there... it seems we have people saying: "who cares what the consensus was over at WP:V. A consensus at WP:V is irrelevant to WP:NPOV, as this is a different page". (see: WT:NPOV#Sentence replaced re. non-negotiability of the principles upon which this policy is based) Blueboar (talk) 14:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Above discussion continued

Agree with Ocassi. When I say the issue is moot, I mean that the poll was clearly against my change. So in the interest of WP:don't be a dick, I threw in the towel. My wimping out should not be the pretext for wholesale revamping of long-standing wikipedia policy. In fact, it is just the sort of "concensus" we see here that cries out for some rules that cannot be changed by a local concensus.

I am also concerned that some of the present editors ( who often, uh, act in concert ) have been severely chastized by Arbcom, even to the point of being desysoped and more. E.g., Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria. I hate for my unwise post be the excuse for some sort of coup while nobody was looking. Perhaps this ought to be the subject of more general debate. Nucleophilic (talk) 18:09, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is, but personal attacks like this are very inappropriate. If you want to accuse Jayjg of socking, WP:SPI is that way. Gigs (talk) 21:42, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

No, I am not accusing anyone of socking. The editors involved are clearly not socks, but merely regularly support each other. Far from being socks, SV even once put a block on Jayjg. In fact, I am surprised that you would make this accusation, which seems (well) straw. Rather, I am concerned that an important change in wikipedia policy may be made without wider input. I suggest it be referred to (say) "the pump".

Similarly, citing adverse Arbcom decisions is not a personal attack. If I really wanted to be provocative, I would have quoted Arbcom's rather inflammatory decision. In the interest of wp:civility, the only part I will quote directly is "Jayjg is also thanked for his years of service.".

If Arbcom did not want their decisions cited and taken into consideration, they would not openly publish them. In particular, some of the elements of this decision are relevant to the present issue. Finally, Wikipedia policy is that official "outing" is one of the consequences of and a major deterrent to bad behavior. If you disagree, I suggest taking this matter up with Arbcom itself. Nucleophilic (talk) 14:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the background, Nucleophilic, but I'm almost certain bringing the issue up here won't help improve this policy. Would you discuss it somewhere else, please? If you have a particular criticism, you know where the noticeboards are and how to start and RfC. Otherwise, this kind of speculation and insinuation seems highly unconstructive. Thanks, Ocaasi (talk) 15:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Indeed... please discuss the policy not the editors. Given that this discussion is overlaping onto more than one of our core policies, I think calling for a centralized discussion and input from a wider sampling of the community (through RFC, pump discussions, etc.) is a valid request... but casting aspersions on other editors does not help. Blueboar (talk) 16:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

All true. I was merely responding to a ( somewhat straw ) insinuation that I was making accusations of "puppetry". In response, I cited evidence proving they are not puppets. We could go on and on like this ad infinitum. But it does seem a waste of time.

Again, my concern is that a major decision on wikipedia policy is being made by just a few editors. Similarly, the Arbcom decision bears on the issue here, independent of any personalities. Nucleophilic (talk) 16:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Patience and AGF please. Nefarious schemes (should such exist) will come to nothing in the end, and (should such not exist) all major decisions are always made by just a few editors. You should take the long view, that short term edits will only produce long-term changes where the community as a whole is satisfied with them. that being said, what specific problem are you seeing that needs to be addressed? --Ludwigs2 18:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the discussion of this clause has been skewed by the reaction to the provocative footnote. The point at issue is to establish that the principles of WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:V cannot be overridden by consensus when writing, for example, a guideline. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 12:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you are going to try to define what is being discussed more clearly, which sounds like a reasonable proposal, presumably you mean a "local consensus"? OTOH, what is the problem being solved here? Do people really ever claim to have a right to over-ride those three polices? I guess that more often what people argue is that consensus defines what is in accord with them?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I mean a local consensus. Decisions about what gets written are often taken by quite a small number of editors, whose consensual opinion may well not reflect that of the wikipedia community as a whole. That is always a danger with "consensus". It is true that people usually try and present their views as based on the principles, and never directly challenge them, but in practice there are guidelines where the principles are insufficiently observed. I don't want to be specific here, as that would lead us into arguments which divert us from the main point. It's worth stressing the fundamentals on which we all agree. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 16:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we should just restate which consensus we mean. A few editors can't override NPOV on an individual article; although, if the entire community decided to rewrite the NPOV policy, then, they could. Policy can change by massive amendment/agreement process, but that's not the kind of single-article scenario I think the policy is addressing. Ocaasi (talk) 16:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree... we do need to be more specific. I think we are mixing up three separate issues: a) is this policy "written in stone" or can this policy change? (the answer to that is "it can, and does change") b) Can another policy/guideline contradict what is said here? (the answer is yes. In fact this can and frequently does occur... however conflicts between our policies shouldn't occur... so, when a conflict does occur we need to discuss the situation and work towards resolving it... bringing the two pages into sync. That may require changing the other policy or changing this policy... or both) c) Can the consensus at an article allow us to ignore this policy? (answer: essentially No, but... and this is extremely rare... an exception is made when there is reason enough to justify invoking WP:IAR). Blueboar (talk) 17:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

For a) Policy can change, but it requires consensus to do any more than minor tweaks; b) Guidelines which contradict this policy should be superseded by this policy--if the conflict is with NPOV or NOR, we need to resolve it; c) local article consensus should not override this policy except in very rare cases where it somehow improves the encyclopedia, avoids a copyright/blp issue, etc. Where do you want to put them? Do they belong here or at WP:Consensus? I think only B is relevant to this page, and that somewhere appropriate A and C should be mentioned at a central Policy page which addresses the big 3+ (maybe WP:Policy). Ocaasi (talk) 17:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but in separating the three cases we seem to have merged others. We are using the word "policy" to cover both principles and guidelines, whereas as I see it the principles should be seen as effectively immutable, while guidelines are more fluid and less authoritative. If for example a guideline is in contradiction to WP:NPOV, it's the guideline which must be altered. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 17:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

No, it's there: 'Guidelines which contradict this policy should be superseded by this policy--if the conflict is with NPOV or NOR, we need to resolve it'. Capital-p Policy applies to NPOV, V, NOR, COPYRIGHT, BLP (I might have missed one). Guidelines is everything else. Indeed, Guidelines are somewhat more flexible than Policies, or at least less authoritative. The whole purpose of the 'superseded language' is to establish that (almost) nothing trumps the core policies, especially not guidelines, and not even a stable but local editorial consensus. Ocaasi (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that 99% of the time, if a guideline conflicts with a policy it is the guideline that will end up needing to change... however... there are rare occasions when it turns out the guideline is covering something we never thought of when writing the policy, and that may require altering the policy. Obviously such a situation would require a lot of discussion and consensus building... but because it can happen, it is a mistake to say that "Policy always supersedes guidelines". When any policy or guideline page conflicts with policy we need to avoid the knee-jerk reaction of "Policy trumps guidelines"... we always need to stop for a second and examine why the two pages conflict, and then think about what is the best way to resolve the conflict for the project as a whole. Blueboar (talk) 01:16, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I think that even in the exceptional cases you mentioned, Policy has to change before the guideline can be considered official. I agree completely that guidelines can present improvements over policy, but if they contradict, I don't think the guideline can be considered 'binding' until the policy adopts its improvement. So... Policy still supersedes guidelines, however Policies can of course adapt to include improvements from guidelines, and when they do... well, they still supersede them. Basically, Policies are bullies and they do what they want until someone else comes along with a better idea and then the Policy steals it and beats them up. Ocaasi (talk) 01:30, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Ocaasi states: "A few editors can't override NPOV on an individual article; although, if the entire community decided to rewrite the NPOV policy, then, they could. " Anybody question this statement ? The rest is just details. Nucleophilic (talk) 19:51, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure they can. If what those editors truly believe to be an NPOV version of the article would, say, violate US laws (e.g., I believe that some court declared posting the code to crack DVD regions was illegal; similarly, perhaps they believe it impossible to write a neutral article about a specific picture of a naked child without posting the image itself), then they should post a (slightly) "non-neutral" but non-criminal article. One might also write an article that you thought was non-neutral if there were some specific, important reason—say, by not describing the kidnapping of that journalist a while ago. Or, for that matter, if the WP:OFFICE declares that you won't include something, then in the end, you won't include it. You might believe that a neutral article requires a link to a blacklisted malware website, but it's not going to happen, no matter how many editors at the article want it. The software just won't let you.

NB that I doubt this kind of exceptional circumstance will come up more than about once per every million article-years, but WP:Ignore all rules applies to all rules, not merely all rules except my personal favorites. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:30, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

You don't even have to go to those extremes. If a group of editors strongly believe that it is in the best interest of the project write a non-neutral article, they can invoke WP:Ignore all rules and do so. Blueboar (talk) 23:17, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

But Blueboar I do not see this happening very often and what I see instead, to describe it in a simple way, is a deliberate tendency amongst people who influence how community norms are written and interpreted to try to make the community forget messy rules like IAR. Simple and clear rules written in a legal style and which always tend to give strength to one side in a dispute, without messy discussion, like Burden, have a certain bureaucratic attraction compared to messy but much more important rules like IAR. But does that make them good for WP itself? Consider the comments which came out during the recent discussion here on the burden rule. In my opinion, links like IAR, DUE and SYNTH have worked well for WP in a messy way, because they force people to argue in terms of the messy reality and give little opportunity for neat and clean wikilawyering. Wikilawyering is nearly always present during the worst problems on WP apart from things like vandalism. It happens because people think they see short cuts in the rules, which allow them to get what they want for the wrong reasons. So whenever policy norms are being written up, trying to avoid wikilayering should be one of the main aims, but to be honest I fear that, due to their administrative experiences, the wikipedians most likely to be writing policy pages are going to be people who tend to desire clear and simple rules, even if those these encourage wikilawyering, and are not good for WP overall. It sometimes seems to me that there are an increasing number of people who understand WP more like nucleophilic understands it (which BTW I agree to be wrong). Where are they getting their information from? I agree with you that any close reading of the policy pages should set him straight, but I hope people consider whether the policy pages are being deliberately written in a way which makes close reading overly-necessary. My apologies for a slight diversion here.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:28, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

The last thing I want to do is encourage wikilawyering. Personally, I understand the guidelines as just that, general guidelines and rules of thumb to be followed except when there are articulable reasons not to do so. "As a general rule", " all else being equal " type stuff. Nucleophilic (talk) 15:46, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Religion

Moved to WP:RS/N. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

A dispute has come up on various articles, most recently Gospel of Luke and Historicity of Jesus where some editors have been deleting sources from religion articles because the biblical scholars quoted are personally religious, and their publishers are what some editors define as "minority sectarian" or "apologetic". One publisher these editors want to exclude is Thomas Nelson (publisher), even though it is the 6th largest publisher in the world. I think we need some kind of RS policy on religious sources. From what the current policy is, I would think there would be no question about these sources. But this dispute has come up again and again, so I think we need to put together a policy that is a bit more explicit. Any suggestions?RomanHistorian (talk) 16:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC) RH... this isn't really the place to raise this (this page is to talk about edits to the policy itself, not violations of it). You have already raised this at WP:RSN which doubles as a sort of WP:V noticeboard. That said... underneath your dispute over verifiability and sourcing is a basic POV dispute. I suggest you raise your concerns at the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Blueboar (talk) 17:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC) Agree with moving this to RS/N, but since the question there is less specific, let me address it here (I'm fine if we move all this over, of curse): From our article: "Its former US division is currently the sixth largest American trade publisher and the world's largest Christian publisher." - nothing about 6th largest publisher in the world. Moreover, it also publishes WND, which absolutely is not a reliable source. I don't know if some of its imprints have a better reputation, but just being published by TN does not seem to imply scholarly weight or reliability. Note also TN has a self-publishing arm, so check carefully where something comes from. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

RfC on the relationship between the sourcing policies and guidelines

Input would be appreciated at an RfC to ask whether the sourcing guidelines (such as CITE, IRS, MEDRS) should make clear that the core content polices take priority by saying something like: "In the event of inconsistencies between this page and the policies, the policies take priority, and this guideline should be amended accordingly." Please see the RfC here at IRS. Many thanks, SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

When a reliable source is required

Wikipedia has recently had severe problems with plagiarism and copyright violations which, in some cases, made it on the main page. These problems are usually introduced by editors (sometimes otherwise very experienced editors) who do not realise that their behaviour is problematic. It has been suggested, and I agree, that extremist interpretations of our verifiability and NOR rules contribute to the problem. Our policies are written to help decide legitimately controversial cases, but once they exist some editors will go around and apply them to non-controversial cases which nobody had previously had in mind. If we want to fix the plagiarism/copyvio problem, we must first of all make sure that there is a climate in which editors are not discouraged from adding uncontroversial, perfectly good content that is not a quotation or close paraphrase from a source.

One of the most obvious excesses in this regard is when perfectly good, well known and uncontroversial information is challenged just because there is no reference. This is basically why egg slicer now has two references. Obviously, the time to find them would have been better invested into finding sources for potentially problematic claims elsewhere. More recently, an editor has come to WP:RS/N#Having no source as a reliable source, claiming that very well known high school mathematics equations that can be found in every book that even covers the topic of the article (logarithms) must be sourced. There appears to be a consensus that this is in fact not true and that tagging a section just because it has no references borders on disruption. (In the past I have seen sections or articles tagged in this way which actually did have inline references, only not as footnotes but in the form of Harvard references or external links. This shows that some of these editors "challenge" sections without even reading them.) However, WP:BURDEN (part of this policy) is seen by many as justifying just that. They claim that if they add a fact tag for no good reason at all, that's a valid "challenge" in the sense of WP:CHALLENGE, and therefore others now have the burden of providing a source that the sky is blue according to WP:BURDEN.

In other words, this policy is slightly out of balance. We should fix it without causing the opposite problem. I propose the following new, third subsection of WP:V#When a reliable source is required after WP:CHALLENGE and WP:BURDEN: Template:Blockquotetop

Well known facts

Challenging a claim means arguing in good faith that it may not be true, or at least not as stated. Editors who think that an article would profit from an inline source for a fact that is well known relative to the field of the article should add such a source themselves or ask for one on the talk page, but not tag it. Asking for a citation for a well known, generally accepted fact is also not an acceptable way of expressing neutrality concerns. Template:Blockquotebottom Hans Adler 11:00, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Hans I'll be interested to see how other's react and what problems they might see, but from my first reading both your explanation and your approach are spot on and very welcome.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:47, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

The above is a mis-representation of the facts from the case at WP:RS/N#Having no source as a reliable source. It might be worth having a discussion on the subject but only by presenting the situation accurately. The idea that tagging was done for 'no good reason' is just plain incorrect. Also for the record the idea of requiring inline citations for this situation is not my view nor something I have asked for. Finally, if as you claim that it can be sourced to every book that even covers the topic, then why has a book source not been forthcoming and added to the article? Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 12:45, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

A few thoughts:

1) How does Hans's suggestion prevent plagiarism?

2) Tagging does not always mean "challenging". There is a difference between tagging something with {{citation needed}} and tagging it with {{dubious}}. Blueboar (talk) 13:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the change is unnecessary, although well motivated. If a fact is well known because it exists in multiple textbooks, it's easy to source. Talking about the dispute took much more time that sourcing would have. --Nuujinn (talk) 14:05, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't prevent plagiarism, it's one step to address a root cause of vandalism: The general level of knowledge about plagiarism is abysmally low, and a lot of editors have very low writing competence. We will have to address the first point, and unfortunately we can probably not do much about the second. But one thing we can do rather easily is stop encouraging editors to plagiarise. We just lost an arbitrator, who made use of RTV after some of his plagiarism reached the main page. Apparently he thought that this is how we have to write articles, because when you write something completely in your own words after consulting dozens of sources, you are often accused of original research, leading to a process that typically ends in a sequence of sentences each of which is a closely paraphrased sentence stolen from a source. These things happen because editors lose sight of our goal of writing an encyclopedia and instead concentrate on rules which they apply out of context. Hans Adler 16:40, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

SunCreator, this edit of yours was disruptive pedantry as described in WP:BLUE. You are probably doing this kind of thing in good faith, but it's still disruptive. There is a reason why you have most of the mathematics project against you when you do that. What the logarithm article needs is not inline citations after "claims" such as "The logarithm of a number y with respect to a number b is the power to which b has to be raised in order to give y. The number b is called base. In symbols, the logarithm is the number x solving the following equation: bx = y." It needs a general reference or two to a good maths book that covers the topic at an appropriate level. Hans Adler 16:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:BLUE is an essay, which I didn't know existed until recently. To my knowledge it has no community consensus and represents a minority viewpoints as it contradicts and opposes the consensus positions of the widely used policies and guidelines of WP:V, WP:BURDEN, WP:NOR, WP:SCG(recommend reading this one); also another essay WP:NOTBLUE. Regarding 'It needs a general reference or two to a good maths book that covers the topic at an appropriate level'; I agree. WP:SCG says the same. This has been my position all along. Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 02:38, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Hans, I seems like you are conflating three distinct issues here:

1) Informing editors that we want them to paraphrase and summarize what the sources say in their own words (to avoid plagiarism)... but at the same time we also want them to accurately reflect what the sources say and cite it (to avoid OR). (my opinion: I agree that we could express this better ... both here and at NOR).

2) Teaching editors when they should cite what they write (my opinion: if there is any doubt, cite it, as it is better to over cite than under cite... and if someone requests a citation, you must cite).

3) When and whether to tag unsourced material... and whether it is appropriate to tag "well known" material. (my opinion: it is never wrong to request a citation... but understand that it may be annoying to do so). Blueboar (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Hans. I would say that:

1. The burden of proof for any reasonable request for a citation is on people who want to keep the fact.
2. It is normally easier to provide a citation in any given case than to argue about whether the request for a citation is reasonable.
3. The above point does not mean that it is right to go round making unreasonable requests. People could spend their time more productively elsewhere.

Yaris678 (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem with Yaris's #3 is that editors will disagree on whether the request is "unreasonable". I might make a request that I think is absolutely reasonable... you might disagree and think it is unreasonable. The current language resolves that by essentially saying "Yes, it may be annoying to have to cite it... too bad... suck it up, slap in a citation, and move on." Blueboar (talk) 17:47, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I am not confident that it is "never" wrong. Tagging and questioning are clearly used sometimes to try to get POV positions into articles. Even when they fail to achieve that they very often do result in tortured re-writes, excessive footnoting, and tags which stay in articles for no good reason for a long time - which if nothing else reduces the value of tags. In short, this process, when pursued for the wrong reasons, makes articles worse. How can that not be wrong?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:21, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I agree that it is never wrong to request a citation. Such requests made politely should not be a source of irritation. Indeed, the material should be cited as it is put into the article. Even statements such as the sky is blue can be argued. In regard to the plagiarism, I readily concede there is a problem, but I am not sure how this suggested change would address that issue. --Nuujinn (talk) 17:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The proposed addition addresses a recurring theme seen in many articles covering more technical, yet widely-taught/studied topics. It introduces a certain notion of 'common sense' that sometimes seems to be lacking in requests for citations. linas (talk) 23:10, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose I see this as causing more problems than it will solve, shifting disputes in the direction of "It's well-known," "No it's not," "If you don't know it then you are stupid." This sort of debate favors the inclusion of dubious information rather than its removal. Better to have two sources for what an egg slicer is than open the floodgates of "common knowledge" to justify gross violations of NPOV. Besides, much that is well-known is false. Example: does the statement that people thought that the Earth was flat prior to Columbus' voyage require a citation? Answer: yes, because it is false, and it is good to force those who want to include it in the article to find reliable sources saying that it is so; that makes it easier to keep that statement out of the encyclopedia. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 23:37, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't Hans' proposal specifically allow for tagging such things? I am not sure that this proposal gives any strong arguing point for POV pushers. Right now though, the burden wording is so unusually legalistic that I do believe it distorts the balance of power in favor of any POV pushers who learn, as they do learn, to structure their arguments so that they can cite it. I understand that the original thinking must have been something like yours now - that it is better to give one side a clear advantage in any imaginable content dispute. (I guess such an approach has worked well in the case of WP:TRUTH for example, which always favors the side with sourcing, rather than the side who might think they know more.) But actually if reality is messy, as it often is when it comes to judging what is common knowledge, then content disputes will be messy, and we actually shouldn't try to pre-judge by writing policies for all cases?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:28, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

The current wording could well be improved, but Hans's proposal puts the burden on the person noting that a fact is not cited to find a source, and I think that's a problem. If I had a source for such a statement, I should just add it rather than tagging statement. If I note that a statement is unsourced, and don't have a source (and yes, I should take some time to look), then tagging should be perfectly fine, and should not be taken as disruptive. Hans's proposal also opens the door for POV pushing in that a group of editors sharing a point of view can just argue that the fact is common knowledge, and refuse to provide a source. Those kinds of discussions are very painful and difficult compared to the usual source based discussions. And, as I've said, if a fact is common knowledge even in a very technical article, it should be trivial to source. To my way of thinking the onus should be on the person who added or wants to retain the material to provide a source, since verifiability and reliable sourcing are core concepts, and the material should have been referenced when it was added. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:11, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

We could clarify that tags are also subject to WP:CONSENSUS. It was suggested once that WP:Template messages should say that a template ought to remain in place unless there is a clear consensus against it. I was opposed to that 1) because that was not a policy, guideline, or essay page and so shouldn't make such pronouncements and 2) because it would lead to the problem we are attempting to resolve. If someone is disrupting an article by insisting upon inappropriate cn tags, they will be one voice against the consensus (even if a third opinion or RfC is necessary to get others involved), and they can certainly be warned about WP:POINT if they persist or go on a rampage involving many articles. I think more than this clarification of CONSENSUS will create problems. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 16:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

"Hans's proposal puts the burden on the person noting that a fact is not cited to find a source". This is very misleading. If an article says one of the following:

log xy = log x + log y

The French Revolution happened in 1789.

The sky is blue.

and there is no citation for it, then the burden to add a source does not exist in the first place because the only reason a normal person would ask for a source is pedantry. When pedants ask normal editors to do work for them just to satisfy their unusual inclinations, then this is obviously irritating to the other editors. As the policy is currently formulated it gives the impression that this kind of behaviour is perfectly OK. It encourages the same kind of problem that we had with this editor. This was about orphan tags, but the principle is the same. If every section of more than 100 words, say, absolutely needed inline citations, then it would be no problem to write a bot that tags them all. We don't do this because in many cases the templates would serve no purpose. Humans add the templates, and they are supposed to exercise discretion. Humans who indiscriminately add such templates are a problem. I don't know why this needs spelling out, but the Wikipedia culture has become so bureaucratic and legalistic that it does need saying. Hans Adler 16:32, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Hans, in reply to your earlier posts, I agree that on contentious pages editors are often forced to stick too closely to the source's words. But most pages aren't contentious, yet we see too-close paraphrasing everywhere. So I don't agree that trying to satisfy the NOR policy is the root case of the plagiarism issue. It's one of the things that has to be juggled, but just one. The major issue is editors not knowing how to summarize, and those same editors not recognizing an accurate summary when they see one. Changing this policy won't affect that. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:38, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, having some experience teaching at the uni level, I am often stunned at the poor level of understanding of plagiarism issues. Hans, I would suggest that if an editor is tagging excessively, then dealing with that behavior directly would be more useful. In your examples, two of the three should be delightfully easy to source, so I fail to see why sourcing them would be a problem. If someone asks that such a statement be sourced, the choices are to argue about whether they should be sourced, or argue about who should source them, or just provide a source. It seems to me that that latter is the quickest, easiest, and most productive approach. Now, speaking as an pedant, in regard to "the sky is blue", it isn't always. If someone were inclined to argue the point, and I would not myself, the fastest way to resolve the dispute would be to turn to the sources. That's the key point, to my way of thinking. In cases where there is a dispute, we turn to reliable sources, and sourcing a fact such as the sky is blue is generally speaking much easier than proving that it is common knowledge that the sky is blue, and to do either, we'd turn to sources. --Nuujinn (talk) 18:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

You're right; "excessive tagging" is a behavioral issue, but that typically involves either tagging for citation items that are already cited, or adding a one or two dozen citation tags to an article at the same time. Adding one or two {{fact}} tags to an article (where the information is not cited) is never a problem; in fact, it's fixing a problem. When people protest vociferously that it's "pedantic to ask for a source" or "so obvious it's hard to source", it almost inevitably turns out that it can either a) be fairly easily sourced, or b) isn't as obvious as is claimed. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:43, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

When apparently reliable sources are objectively wrong

Irish-British

This policy states clearly, "verifiability, not truth" but what do we do when apparently reliable sources are objectively wrong? I am very deliberate in my choice of the words "objectively wrong" here.

Example, we have a problem on the Wikipedia with the term British Isles which is being discussed here [16]. A second RfC was opened here [17] relating to allegations of an ongoing campaign to remove the term but it was suggested this was actually a policy issue not a content issue. Our problem is simple but unique. The British Isles consist of 4 groups of islands; the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands, the Irish islands and the Isle of Man (actually a small group). The term is a translation of a 2,000 year old name given to the islands. Within the British Isles, there are two sovereign states; the UK and Ireland. Neither the UK (aka Britain) or Ireland include the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man which, while sharing a history and culture, retain significant independence. During that history, many other kingdoms and nations have existed and the borders between Britain and Ireland have been united and split apart. For the most part, the term "British Isles" is accepted as a non-political, geographic term on a par with Scandinavia. Despite minor disputes from some elements of Irish society, no alternative terminology has been widely accepted yet within academia*. A number of individuals on the Wikipedia are seeking to replace the term "British Isles" with alternatives, usually "Britain and Ireland". Legally and objectively, "Britain and Ireland" does not include the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. We have a consensus on this. It is not a matter for opinion.

I think that the 38 archive pages consisting largely of discussion on this issue, without resolution say more than I can. North8000 (talk) 15:02, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that for various reasons (historical, commercial and chauvinist etc), numerous references show that "Britain and Ireland" is used inaccurately as a shorthand for all of the territories within the British Isles. However, no references ever state that the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are within either the UK or Ireland.

I do not wish to discuss the British Isles renaming dispute content issue here. I wish to raise the underlying policy issue. What do we do when apparently reliable sources are clearly and objectively wrong? Do we go along with the error on the basis that it is "common" and verifiable, or should we take a hardline on accuracy? Stylistically, it is impossible for us to use "Channel Islands, Ireland, the Isle of Man and UK", every time we normally use "British Isles". Due to the close proximity of the island, and the shared history and culture, many topics apply across the whole region.

(*Please note, for editors outside of the are, it is not possible to be nationalistic for the British Isle. The British Isles is not a nation such as Great Britain but a geographic term). --LevenBoy (talk) 15:46, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I think geographical terms are a slightly special case on Wikipedia. Whenever they become a major issue we try to agree on a standard, the same way as we might agree on a style point, or concerning English or American spelling. For example I once used a source which referred to the region of Egypt, Sudan and Libya as northeast Africa, which is a usage that disagrees with the WP article by that name, and so I just avoided using direct quotes and wrote "Egypt, Sudan and Libya". Often such wording tricks avoid a problem.

Still, while making that decision about what our standard or standards will be (which seems to be the phase your discussion has been in for a long time?) we do need to decide what that decision should be based on. But is the problem really a case of needing to decide between what is true and what is verifiable? I think it is actually a case where the verifiable sources are still what you all refer to but (as is actually quite common) they simply do not all agree and do not all focus equally clearly upon this point. So it might be better to address this question as one of what the best and most authoritative sources are?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:17, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

This isn't a WP:V issue (there are reliable sources to support both views on this)... it is a WP:NPOV issue. Neither side in this debate is "objectively wrong"... rather they are subjectively wrong (ie those who hold opposing views are of the opinion that the other side is wrong). That said... what you have here are sources tht disagree (some say British Isles, others try to be "PC" and say Britain and Ireland or some variation)... our job is to note that there is a disagreement between the sources and not to take sides in the debate. Blueboar (talk) 16:20, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I concur that is not a WP:V issue, but a WP:NPOV one. I've commented out the RfC tag, because it's not asking for any modification to this policy. Tijfo098 (talk) 18:53, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

United Kingdom isn't an island. Perhaps you (LevenBoy) meant to say 'Great Britain'? GoodDay (talk) 16:21, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Actual discussion of potential RS error

I stumbled upon a similar situation while working on Marathon world record progression where the International Association of Athletics Federations (a reliable source) state that Henry Frederick Barrett set a world record in London on May 26, 1909, however, an actual newspaper clipping from The Times (another reliable source) shows it to have been set on May 8, 1909. Given that the IAAF is the official record-keeping organization, we have to go by what they say, but I included various footnotes explaining the discrepancy. This one is particularly troubling to me in that 1) the IAAF states Albert Raines broke the record in New York on May 8th, when it is likely that Barrett had already broken the record in London earlier that day, and 2) my explanation for the discrepancy borders on WP:OR. (I did report my "discovery" of this error to the IAAF, so we will see what they do.) Location (talk) 21:54, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Looking at this talk section for its title and not its content, and after inserting subheads to distinguish this content (flipping a coin to choose them), I think Location makes a good V point. In this situation I think it would be simple enough to include both sources in article and make a brief non-OR note allowing readers to grasp the implications for Raines, if possible; dunno what wording would suffice, of course, and if we don't have evidence of the hourly timeframe of the May 8 events the implications themselves are not established. Basically "The Times states ... However, the IAAF records state". It's possible there is some unknown misunderstanding behind the IAAF's redating that would support their record listing, so we stick very closely to the sources as our solution.

In general on this very interesting question, a true "objectively wrong" source is usually glossed with a Homer-nods notation such as "sic" for typos, or, in the U.S. Code, "probably intending X" (codifiers are not permitted to correct the clerical errors of legislators, only to note them). It can often be corrected by replacement with another source. At risk of getting off-topic, it is a different case when the source is merely "technically wrong", meaning committing a solecism like sources using "British Isles" to mean two slightly different groupings of islands. (I'm glad I linked that: I just discovered that it's a solecism to use "solecism" outside of Cilicia!) I just had a source that referred to a region in the 12th century BC(E) as "Palestine", when at best one might say part of the region was then beginning to be known as "Peleshet" ("Philistia"), so I changed it to what might be the "proper" temporospatial term "Canaan". It is clear that the source was merely committing a shorthand reference to "the region later called Palestine". Some cases can be corrected silently, some need minitags, and some need the "semicolon" treatment to give two conflicting sources each their "fair" say. JJB 17:24, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

More British-Irish

I watched that article closely for about a half year. Take a look at the 38 archives of debate on essentially the same topic. I even tried to facilitate a bit, and the regulars wisely advised me to run from that place, which I did. The core question of dispute is a matter of viewpoint/ advocacy rather than a matter of fact/ truth. (And, for those who try continue try to reverse engineer a Wikipedia mission from Wikipedia guidelines and policies, the foundation mission requires correctness, where objective truth exists, wp:ver is merely means to that end, not the objective) And the article involves folks who are similarly at odds in the real world. Current Wikipedia policies will, until they are refined, be used as a means to perpetuate that conflict rather than solve it. North8000 (talk) 23:54, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Andrew, I agree that geographical terms are a slightly special case on Wikipedia and thank you Location for an alternative example and your thoughts, which I agree with, North8000. Within geographical terms the British Isles/Isle of Man/Channel Islands issue is a unique one for the English language. So far, attempts to work towards a MOS have failed and they are likely to continue to do so until this policy aspect is clarified. Therefore, I am returning this issue as a policy question because it is the policy question I am raising, not the British Isles issue. It is nothing to do with POV pushing and "sides".

In the case of the Britain and Ireland we have clearly and objective defined entities. There is no ambiguity. No room for subjective interpretation. Not even the smallest border dispute. Objectively, in this case according to the law, both the terms exclude the Islands of Man and Channel Island.

Yes, some individuals have and do use them erroneously to include a larger territory than they objectively describe. There is also consensus both that such use exists and is erroneous. The policy question is, therefore, where there is a dispute and likely other motivations to edit which aspects do we put more weight on? Common use, even if it is wrong, or the objectively legal definition?

Blueboar, I have read your comments here and at 'identifying reliable sources'. It was difficult to chose which page to post on as the issue falls between the two but I am sincerely raising the policy issue. In this case, it is unfeasible to use both or all because it would become far too unwieldy and it effects far too many topics. If you look closer at the discussion, you will realise why this is important. It is not a simple black and white edit war.

I think we need to develop the policy to specifically address such disputes. My proposal is that where there is such a dispute, the current, legally objective definition should take priority over common use. An encyclopedia should prioritise accuracy. Especially where it is easy verifiable. Which is why I posted here. --LevenBoy (talk) 01:25, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

(added later) I think that the 38 archives / 4-1/2 years full of an unresolved dispute on this say more than I can. I know I'm going to blow it trying to summarize in two sentences, but IMHO it's a term which has no legal/ country-type status, but which exists, but less now than before. One camp wants the term to be used and covered, the other camp wants to have use and coverage of the term minimized or for it to disappear, which could include wanting the article to disappear. And one core of fuel for the fire (aside from the usual Wikipedia warfare stuff) is that its a term with "British" in it's name and which includes all of Ireland. North8000 (talk) 15:23, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

We already have a policy for this... its called WP:Neutral point of view. More specifically, in that policy there is a section called WP:NPOV#Naming. Blueboar (talk) 14:20, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Can I just point out the in isolation the two countries Britain and Ireland do not include the IoM or CI but when used as the term "Britain and Ireland" can and do so. It is also worth noting that from a purely geographic point of view the CI are NOT part of the BI's. It is only included by some unexplained tradition. Bjmullan (talk) 15:26, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Wish you the best; you have a tough situation in that article. After 6 months of watching it, my advice would be to make it an article about the term "British Isles" rather than about all of the land & countries that that term encompasses. But as highly charged as this situation is there, a "middle of the road" proposal would probably be opposed by both sides. North8000 (talk) 15:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Done already here :-) Bjmullan (talk) 16:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

(an aside) The Channel Islands are an interesting case... looking from a historical perspective, they are not part of the "British Isles" ... they are the last vestige of old Duchy of Normandy, and the fact that the King of England was (or at least claimed to be) also the Duke of Normandy. Indeed, there is a traditional "Loyal Toast" given on the islands which goes: "The Queen, our Duke!" (not Duchess). Blueboar (talk) 16:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

• WP:PLACE covers this quite well. I fail to see how this RFC benefits the project - it's the 3rd RFC started within the last week by LevenBoy and LemonMonday on the British Isles Naming issue. It's starting look like forum-shopping. Wikipedia is not here to "right the wrongs of history" or of contemporary politics. We already have policies for assessing reliablity and the due weighting of sources, for geographic naming conventions, for naming wrt Ireland, and we have a space for discusion vis-a-vis the use of British Isles.
  Furthermore LevenBoy your above post frames this dispute as a campaign to remove the term 'British Isles' from WP - the mechanisms listed above are for usage not removal. Anyone atually involved in such a campaign should be reported per the topic's probation. Also, you are under civility parole yourself and need to stop casting generalized aspersions, and assumptions of bad faith, about others (whether named or not) - that's called poisoning the well and is a type of ad hominem remark. If there is a specific problem please report it with evidence (diffs) - I am (as every other admin is) very happy to deal with an evidenced issue which concentrates on diffs rather than speculation about motives. I understand your frustration LB but all involved in the Britsh Isles terminological dispute on WP need to work together towards agreement and consensus that is the only way forward--Cailil ^talk 16:31, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

BJM - I believe you are wrong in your assertion that taken together B and I do include the IoM and CI. There seems to be a drive on Wikipedia to ensure this to be the case but I see no evidence of it outside Wikipedia. I wonder if, for the sake of clarity, we should seek to replace a number of instances at Wikipedia where B & I is ambiguous, with the totally unambiguous British Isles (where our policy is to include the CI). LemonMonday Talk 16:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)