Wikipedia talk:Verifiability

Request for comment un Crum375's pre-proposal

As you may recall, in June Crum275 drafted a pre-proposal which was essentially to merge wp:VER and WP:NOR and essentially make no changes during the merge process. I think that it's a good idea due to the large amount of overlap between the two in both content and in the principles / policies covered. And he asked for input at this stage, before it became even a proposal.

The proposal and its comment/talk page is at: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crum375/att&oldid=377560470

It also has a rationale page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Crum375/att/rationale

I noticed that it's getting a little quiet over there and thought it might be good to suggest request folks weigh in over there, including whether or not they think that it's a good idea. This is "pre-proposal", so if it went another step that would be to becoming a proposal. North8000 (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Self Published Sources is worded in a way which is too broad

I have been involved for a few years now in a long running contentious issue over the self published sources criteria. You can see the current state of that debate at the following link. Talk:Blanchard,_Bailey,_and_Lawrence_theory#Links_to_RSN_about_Wyndzen

After much debate over this issue the concerned editors largely agree that the definition of what WP considers self published work should be along the lines of "Self-publication is when the person or group that writes the material ("author") is the same person or group that decides to publish it ("publisher")." Simple and straightforward as that.

Right now any published work that did not get peer review can be and has in the case we are working with been deemed as self published under the current rules. Under the current rules certain materials were excluded because the "expertness" of the authors was in doubt in some cases. Where being an expert seemed to require having academic credentials or the like.

In short we propose that the definition of "self-Published source" be tightened up to "Self-publication is when the person or group that writes the material ("author") is the same person or group that decides to publish it ("publisher")." With no implication that peer review or vetting is needed to make a source not self published.--Hfarmer (talk) 06:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

First, to clarify what you are proposing. The current policy doesn't define "self-published", but does imply that it relates to publishing by an individual who is also the author. You are proposing to define it, and in a way that takes in groups. IMHO WP:VER's sourcing criteria (and the granular level) are written such that 90% of Wikipedia sourcing doesn't meet a rigorous interpretation of them. I'd hate to see this go even farther from reality. The would seemingly could be used to knock any source where the author was a part of the organization. For example, if a US Department of Agriculture person wrote a technical document, and the USDA published it. I don't think it is good as written. North8000 (talk) 13:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It would only be an issue if the document was about the USDA itself. If it is a guide for growing cabbages SPS wouldn't be relevant. Roger (talk) 13:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Roger. I'm not sure whether you are talking about general suitability, or policy. From a policy standpoint, I don't see where the policy or Hfarmer's idea make any distinction between those two examples that you gave. Regarding general suitability, I think that the "cabbages" subject would be on solid ground, and also mundane uncontested facts about the USDA. North8000 (talk) 14:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The question in that discussion seems to be whether editorial review is a sufficient vetting process when we consistently show a preference for peer-reviewed sources. In my opinion, editorial review is a borderline case, in some cases not sufficiently removed from the author to avoid the problems with self-published sources and in some cases doing so. Editorial review is more accepted regarding law reviews, but they are not all equal. Some have quite rigorous review processes while some publish their friends to such an extent that we would have to say that they have no review at all. Moreover, the norm in medicine seems to be that one publishes in peer-reviewed journals, casting editor-review in a dimmer light than is the case for law. I don't know the exact details of this case and it is too long to familiarize myself with it, but it doesn't seem that the real objection is over the wording of a policy (even if it at times expresses itself as wikilawyering). Articles subjected to editorial review may or may not be reliable sources, and the wording on self-published sources currently reflects that. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 15:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Well the problem that we have is that we have sources which were part of a call for comments from the concerned public. I would rather not characterize them. Suffice it to say these are articles which underwent minimal editorial review. (We have a statement from the editor of the particular journal in question basically he spell checked.)

The fact that such a thing is borderline is why I think this needs to be looked at. The debate over this has gone on for over two years and devolved into off wiki personal attacks etc. A clear simple policy would prevent that. --Hfarmer (talk) 19:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Hfarmer's statement regarding the editor's level of involvement--"basically he spell checked"... is inaccurate. I don't know whether it's correct WikiForm to quote myself here, but here's what I posted on the talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Blanchard,_Bailey,_and_Lawrence_theory regarding the matter:

I welcome Whatamidoing's suggestion that the wording of WP:SPS be revisited so that it comports with the plain-language meaning of the term "self-published", which is a very worthwhile proposal. The "self-published" label is being applied here to sources (Wyndzen's APA letter and Dreger commentary) which to me are obviously NOT self-published. Here I'd like to quote Kenneth Zucker's "Introduction to Dreger (2008) and Peer Commentaries" in the Dreger ASB issue: "I reviewed all commentaries and, by and large, made very minor editorial changes and, if there was a substantive issue, did so in consultation with the author." (Italics mine.) OK, Wyndzen's commentary was not "peer-reviewed"; but labelling it "self-published" seems ludicrous to me. And claiming, as James Cantor has, that ALL commentaries should be excluded as unreliable SPS, seems to me to imply that the editors of reputable journals are morons who will publish any crank letter that crosses their desk. ... bonze blayk (talk) 19:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

bonze blayk (talk) 01:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Suitability of source has about 5 metrics, and wp:ver has only about two. If you'd like to start a multi-month effort to carefully improve it, then let's do it. But I think that your particular first try of a proposal in that area has some issues that would cause some negative unintended consequences.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a policy change solving your battle. I haven't gotten up to speed on it, but have you tried RFC or the RS noticeboard? Wherever it gets thrashed out, might I suggest defining / agreeing on the parameters for a debate: basically everything in WP:VER, plus expertise and objectivity in the topic at issue, and third party indications of such about the source. And then try to get a consensus while following that framework. North8000 (talk) 23:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know that changing the wording regarding SPS would solve the problem as described, since the question is one of fact (whether its appearance in print is due solely to the author's decision to submit) rather than one of the rule to be applied (whether the important question is whether its appearance in print is due solely to the author's decision to submit). So I agree with North8000 that this is really an RSN or RfC matter. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 00:13, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Multiple multiple RSN an RfC's etc etc. have not resolved this matter. It really is a matter of a policy which is resulting in what many feel is a biased article.--Hfarmer (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

One editor working on the page that motivated me to make this suggestion was nice enough to hunt down links to all of them " See, for example, multiplediscussions,ad nauseum,and then some more."

Yes I would be open to a multi month study of changing this policy if you feel that's necessary. We have tried everything else to get an article which more people would feel was fair and unbiased. Yet the exclusion of certain materials due to SPS has been construed as a grand conspiracy of the establishment and it's minions to bias WP and all that. --Hfarmer (talk) 14:36, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Policy should never be changed in order to resolve a dispute at a particular article. Now, if similar disputes are arising at multiple articles... then we might have an indication that we need to change the Policy. Blueboar (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Then you would agree that this issue needs to be addressed since this is only one article that would be effected directly. The others in question are Autogynephilia, Homosexual transsexual, Transgender sexuality,Androphilia and gynephilia, Transvestic fetishism, Gender identity disorder,any other article that touches on transsexual or transgender sexuality/expression.

Furthermore there exist a whole universe of articles where in a minority group of some kind has been written about by "experts" in journals, books etc. Members of those groups who are not academically credentiald also write things and publish them in non peer reviewed sources. Those sources written by the actual members of a minority group (sexual, racial, ethnic, religion, cultural...) are excluded if the person does not have academic credentials. They are excluded while someone who has read about them and written about them is included even if they have no practical lived experience.

The issue here ladies and gentlemen is not just these articles it is one of credentialism. Through that this policy effects all of Wikipedia.--Hfarmer (talk) 15:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The fact that this issue has not been successfully resolved in the appropriate forum does not, I think, change the appropriate forum. In the discussions on RSN that Hfarmer provided, it still looks like a question of whether the particular source is reliable, not really about the rule to be applied. That is, are the letters open submissions or are they not, are they as reliable as the peer-reviewed piece to which they respond in the same journal or are they not, etc. Blueboar is right: this is not reason to change the way we phrase the caution about self-published sources. Charging that this is an issue of credentialism and that SPS wording should be changed to reflect that makes me think that this is an attempt to enervate the prejudice in favor of peer-reviewed sources that forms the bedrock of our verifiability policy. While that is certainly something that would affect all of Wikipedia, it would do so negatively and it is much larger than simply "clarifying" what is meant by a self-published source. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 16:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Thankyou all. No one can now say that I did not make a completely honest try to do everything to be as fair as possible to the sources in question. (i.e. calling me a schill or attacking me like mad of WP Google my name to find what I mean.) It is now up to the other editors who want this to step forward or shut up. --Hfarmer (talk) 16:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Hfarmer, I think you are conflating issues. You seem to think that WP:SPS is about academic vs. non-academic, but this is not so. SPS only requires, effectively, a professional vetting layer, ideally consisting of paid professionals, between the author and the final published version, for us to consider a source not "self published". It does not require the source to be "academic", although if the view being presented represents only a tiny fringe minority, it may be excluded per WP:NPOV. Crum375 (talk) 18:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that it's a combination of the two. The policy could use changes that add a few more metrics regarding sourcing suitability (I would start with 1. objectivity and 2. expertise in the area of what in particular it was used to cite) which would de-emphasize the current two a bit. And I think that that would help avoid or solve some issues. But as a practical matter, that isn't a practical plan to solve a current problem. North8000 (talk) 19:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

We have been hacking away at this for three years. If it takes a year to ammend this policy in such a way that sources like the ones I have described are acceptable then so be it.

The current policy treats a book written by members of an Indian tribe about themselves and their tribe as less credible than a paper written by someone who's only studied them by reading old literature. It's insane to rely completely on the awarding of academic credentials (which is by now means a completely merit based thing. Race and class are always factors.)

Sure this problem I have had is what made me come here, but their are problems like it all over WP. --Hfarmer (talk) 21:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

If the Indians describe themselves without making unduly self-serving claims about themselves, or allegations about others, the source would be acceptable even if it's self-published, since we allow subjects to tell us about themselves in a restricted fashion. If they submit their work to a reputable publisher who vets it for liability and accuracy, that would no longer be self-published, and if the publisher has a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, it would be a regular reliable source. All this has nothing to do with academic qualifications or expertise, and would be achieved with the current policy wording, as written. Where do you think a change is needed? Crum375 (talk) 22:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, if an individual makes a claim about him/herself that is one thing, but making claims about one's ethnic group is making claims about others. Moreover, any claim that someone makes about themselves that is contested by a reliable source seems to me to be self-serving in that it advances a position in which they have a significant stake. I thought the exceptions regarding WP:SPS involve things like "I went to public school in Marietta, Georgia," rather than "this large-n study about my tribe's genetics is wrong." RJC ^Talk_Contribs 23:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with much, though not all, of what you say. The SPS exclusion allows an individual to present his own side of the story, but I agree that this does not include presenting a scientific study or analysis, since that's information about the study, not the individual directly. I also agree that making statements about your entire group would be improper if it's controversial and not unanimously accepted by the group members. Where I disagree is that in general, it is not "self serving" to defend yourself against an accusation, and we generally allow individuals to rebut allegations made against them, even if the rebuttal is on their personal (verified) blog or is otherwise self-published. But this rebuttal should be simple and factual: "I didn't steal the cookie from the jar", not analytical or technical: "my DNA is XYZ which is inconsistent with the data from ABC". Still, if a respected publisher with a good reputation for accuracy and fact checking publishes the group's story, it would be a bona-fide reliable source and can be used, although perhaps as a minority view. Crum375 (talk) 01:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Well here's a thumbnail for my idea of a total rework of the sourcing-specific part of WP:VER / WP?NOR:

The more contested the statement, the stronger the sourcing required. And vica versa

Strength of sourcing is a combination of these 5 factors

1. Degree of compliance with current publishing / review related RS policy standards
2. Degree of compliance with current primary / secondary / tertiary policy standards
3. Expertise of the source in the area of the topic that used it as a source
4. Objectivity of the source in the area of the topic that used it as a source
5. Probably one more that I forget at the moment or haven't thought of yet

This would tend to de-emphasize the current metrics (#1 & #2) a bit, and make it more realistic, and provide a better framework for resolution of issues . Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

In principle I agree that the more contested a statement the stronger the sourcing requiered. Again that leads to the issue of privilleging academic sources over non academic sources. Which is a problem when the issue at hand is a group of people who might just write a thing or two about themselves.

That said I propose the following. Self published sources are sources in which the author had sole discretion in publishing or not publishing a given work. These sources are to be discouraged unless the author is a recognized expert in the field, writing about themself, or writing about a group of people to which they belong. Careful attention has to be paid to possible bias in such sources. Something along these lines.

The issue that I have and that many articles have is that often inaccurate, or biased information is presented because of the non-regonition of expertise gained via lived experience. Plenty of people who don't have much book learnins might be able to write about the culture they belong to like an expert on their own culture, for example. --Hfarmer (talk) 14:08, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

arbitrary section break

OK... Hfarmer makes the argument that we are omitting sources that should not be omitted... let's take a look at this the other way. Would the change that Hfarmer proposes lead to any undesirable results... would this change allow a source that we can agree should not be allowed (and is not allowed under our current wording)? Blueboar (talk) 15:08, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

It would mean that letters to the editor or posted on someone else's blog would no longer be self-published sources. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 17:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

IMO, RJC is correct: An accurate definition of self-publishing means that letters to the editor would no longer be considered self-published. It is not necessary for us to consider letters to the editor to be reliable merely because they are not self-published. Self-published is not a synonym for "unreliable", and properly published is not a code word for "reliable". We need to quit invoking WP:SPS as a code phrase for a lack of editorial independence and subject-matter independence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:07, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Right RJC. Technically the Huffington Post is a blog. Yet it has editors and moderators who vet what goes up there and more readership than the Washington post. Under current policy it's just a blog and inspite of the fact that none of the bloggers have final editorial say... it is treated as if it were a personal web space.

Letters to the editor that appear in academic journals are often only published if they are interesting at least in the estimation of the editor and have no obvious errors.

Though I can see where that could be abused. i.e. if someone simply copies something that someone else wrote. However our system of RfC ing anything controversial can sort things like that out. Further the way we write the text could deal with this. ie. saying so and so said in a letter to the editor.. or mentioning that something is a letter to the editor in the citation.

What we have now is a policy written for the 19th century operating on a 21st century medium. A policy which favors print on paper just because it's on paper.--Hfarmer (talk) 18:11, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Precisely because the Huffington Post has such a vetting process, things posted to it are not self-published sources. Even granting that some academic journals publish vetted letters to the editor, we would not want to phrase things such that letters to the Podunkaville Cryer are treated as having been vetted (e.g., if the decision to publish is based mainly on length, relation to previous day's news, etc., but not any sort of checked accuracy). And we don't want posts to an online rumor mill to no longer be self-published just because it is someone else's blog. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 18:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, yes. What we have now is a policy which as I said is far to narrow. It takes away all of the editor and communities discretion in these matters. By blanket prohibiting ALL blogs, that are not liked to a recognized expert (which in practice seems to mean someone with a PhD. or equivalent standing in academia). A practice which allows at most 3% to 4% of the population to have a chance of being considered "reliable" by WP if they publish online.

Many of the problems with this policy could be solved by relying a bit more on the RfC process and RS/N to settle any disputed source issues based on the merit of each source. Right now people are using legalistic points about these policies on how something is published instead of what is said in the source to determine it's credibility and reliability.--Hfarmer (talk) 01:32, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

But the policy as written doesn't draw a bright line, let alone one in the wrong place. As written, there can be debates over what constitutes a self-published source and whether the reference in question falls into that category. Self-published source is not defined. Your initial complaint was that the guideline was not specific enough and you sought to introduce some specificity. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 02:47, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I think what I meant to say in my last comment is that we can debate over what self published sources should be included. Right now if your writing an article on widgetology, the only self published sources that can be included are those of a person who has a PhD. In widgetology. The people who make, sell or use the widgets 9/10 times will not get to be heard from. The current policy's practical effect is to unduely favor academics over every day people with practical experiences. --Hfarmer (talk) 03:54, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

We've gone in a circle again. That is not a question of self-published sources but of our preference for recognized expertise. I have no problem preferring experts. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 03:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

This may seem too broad for this section, except that it is a "forest for the trees" situation even for this discussion. The problem and the solution is that wp:ver has too few metrics for sources, and that it makes each one of the stand-alone and castegorical. If one adds 2 more metrics (expertise and objectivity) to the current two, and take them in total (i.e. remove the "stand-alone-categorical" basis from the current "publishing" criteria then those criteria really are OK vs. being problematic as they currently are. They currently exclude good sources and let in bad ones. For example, reporter written newspaper articles pass the current test with flying colors, yet are rife with flat out errors, and stupidity and strong bias about the topic that they are writing about. So, if Einstein were alive and wrote a blog about Relativity, it would be excluded, but a clueless newspaper reporter trying to summarize what Einstein wrote would be acceptable. I just saw that happen locally on a local technical topic. (the city explaining some smart grid plans) The unacceptable "primary" and "self published" source (videotape of a presentation from an engineer) had it perfectly right, the "secondary" and "editorially reviewed" source (newspaper article) had it ridiculously wrong. North8000 (talk) 13:44, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I just want to correct some things that Hfarmer said above. First, here is no blanket prohibition against "ALL blogs that are not liked to a recognized expert"... What we prohibit are personal blogs (with the expert exemption). And we do allow for "amature" experts... expert status is determined by consensus, and whether a specific person qualifies often depends on the specific topic of the article. Blueboar (talk) 17:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with North that WP:V should acknowledge more aspects to determining whether a source is "reliable". Ideally, a reliable source would be properly published, and written by an expert and be independent of the subject -- and when the problem is a lack of expertise or independence, then ideally editors would say "This is not an expert" or "This is a shill for this company", rather than "This is self-published." WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:53, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I really wish the people who were so keen on getting certain excluded sources included would come here and help.--Hfarmer (talk) 18:19, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Regarding North8000's desire to add two metrics to the verifiability criteria, I'm not sure about them. I don't know that we want to require that the author be a recognized expert, so long as the journal is related to the topic. If a physicist wants to write something about Mayan glyphs and he gets it published in the right places, it is a reliable source. As to the question of objectivity or separation from the subject, I don't know how that could work in practice. A pharmaceutical company funds a clinical trial and that somehow makes the findings less reliable, even if they were published in a peer-reviewed journal? I don't see the problem to be solved. Science writers get things wrong, of course, but it is not as though the only source we have for what is right is Einstein's blog entry. In fact, if Einstein has an idea that he can't get published, I don't know that we want to treat it as more accurate than some science writer's summary of published research. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 22:06, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I suppose what we need in this case is to look at the whole policy not just SPS. Naming 3-5 reliability criteria. Furthermore if a source makes an uncontroversial claim and 4/5 of the criteria are met in the editors estimation, then it's good.

These news standards should/could also suggest a way of orderly dispute resolution... a system of scoring how well a source meets each criteria on a scale from 1- just barely to 10- perfect. So in an RfC over a contested source an editor could write. I give this source a 7 in neutrality, and a 3 in the expertness of the author, and a 10 for how it was published since it was in a journal... and such. --Hfarmer (talk) 16:48, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Numbers don't make things less subjective. They only give the appearance of objectivity. We "score" journals articles and books all the time during our yearly merit review process; we "calculate" teaching effectiveness and "rate" service. We have a variety of "metrics" for our self-assessment. If someone's source needs a 9 on the source-visibility scale to overcome its 1 on the fringiness metric, do you really think they'll assent to an 8? RJC ^Talk_Contribs 16:57, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think you can quantify, or legislate, common sense. Wikipedia's rules, including verifiability, are all based primarily on common sense, along with guiding principles. For verifiability, the guiding principles are that the publisher of the sourced material must have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, and cannot be self published — i.e. a person publishing his own material, without vetting by a professional staff, is generally considered unreliable as a source. But to go and try to nail down "reliable source" (or any other wiki-criterion) by a quantitative or algorithmic formula would be futile, since each situation is different. In other words, we need to use our heads, individually and collectively. If there are disputes, we need to get a consensual reading of how the general policies and guidelines apply to the specific case in point, and by trial and error get there. There is no magic formula for this process, any more than there is one for life. Crum375 (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually there exist formulas that cover large parts of life for example the Einstein–Hilbert action which describes gravity. It looks simple and if you know the math it is simple. Part of the problem that was pointed out with having five metrics for reliablity was how to measure such a thing. I made a suggestion. What is your suggestion Crum375? Should we not do anything? --Hfarmer (talk) 18:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think any metrics or formulas are needed, beyond the basic principles already in the policies and guidelines. But I do agree about the equivalence you mention, because here too we need to achieve our aims "through the principle of least action." Crum375 (talk) 19:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Which is why I proposed a minimalist defninition for self published. "Self-publication is when the person or group that writes the material ("author") is the same person or group that decides to publish it ("publisher")." What's wrong with that? Right now something is formally considered self published if you published it say on a blog like Huffington post. (Which has become a major source for news to many). Right now something is self published even though many non-academic people consider the person who wrote it to be an expert. Can we please realize that there exist experts who are not academics. --Hfarmer (talk) 20:07, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Your definition of SPS won't fly, since it includes The New York Times. This issue has been debated to death here. (And our policies nowhere require reliable sources to be academics.) Crum375 (talk) 20:22, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

No your policies requier that a self published source as it is now defined is only reliable if the person is an expert.

Then the policies requier that an expert be published in the form of non self published books or articles in a peer reviewed journal.

When dealing with topics such as say ethnography, sexuality, gender identity, culture, or religion this leads to a glaring inequality. The vast majority of people do not have the credentials that it takes to get published in the form of a book or a peer reviewed journal. The credential it takes to be so published is in general a PhD.

I know people have this notion that Peer review is this blinded process that is never biased. In real life many editors will not even send for review an article which was not written by a PhD. or with the help of a PhD. (a so called "endorser"). The whole process assumes that anyone who would even attempt a journal publication is a PhD. So even if it's not in the actual code of the policy the effect is to freeze out anyone who isn't a PhD. from being able to just write their personal experiences and offer them as a source for Wikipedia.

Such personal experiences could be quite informative when dealing with cultures and groups of people who are small and about whom there is very little peer reviewed literature, or that literature is considered biased by the community being studied. --Hfarmer (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

IMHO the underlying weaknesses WP:VER are:

1. It is too binary regarding the strength of sourcing required. Right now, as written, all of the sourcing requirements (including all of the source criteria) apply to every sentence written in Wikipedia. As a result 90% of Wikipedia violates Wp:ver/WP:nor as written. Yet it is still too lax for some situations. My idea is: the more contested the statement is, the stronger sourcing required. And vica versa.
2. It is missing two metrics for sources: objectivity and expertise. My idea: add those two.
3. Each source criteria is categorical vs. them being taken together. My idea: consider the metrics together.

North8000 (talk) 10:48, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

North, we've been through this with you on other pages. The fact is that 90% of Wikipedia does not violate the policies as written. You have been given repeated opportunities to identify any single article that violates these policies at your claimed 90% level, and if memory serves, you failed to produce even one single sentence that violates these policies (despite everyone agreeing that these exist). You did, however, demonstrate a shocking level of ignorance about the actual policies as written, e.g., claiming that every noun in the first sentence of an article needs its own inline citation.

WP:V already says that stronger sources are required for controversial statements. See WP:REDFLAG. Editors are already able to consider all the criteria together. (I agree that objectivity should be more prominently discussed.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:39, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrary Section Break 2

I see where you are coming from articles that are uncontroversial have very weak sourcing at times. I have came up against this in articles on the Vietnam war. (One side will change defeats into their victories or "indecisive".) Sources are often one sided, absent or very thin.

I think your suggestion on five criterion of which who wrote something is only one of those and does not trump the others. That is a good idea. Who wrote something really has little bearing on weather or not it is factual. Even experts can have agenda's.--Hfarmer (talk) 13:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how you will define "expert" and "objective" in a way that can be generally used. The current "non-self-published" and "peer-reviewed" attempt to ensure the information is from a recognized objective expert. What will replace that filter? We can't just say "only allow factual information." --John (User:Jwy/talk) 23:22, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Well it would have to be a bit fuzzy to allow some flexibility.

I would say an expert is someone who is considered an expert by the relevant community or communities. Expertise could be determined from finding many references to their self published work (including links to their work on the internet), or from their having some status academic or not that would confer expertise.

Using my favorite example suppose an Indian tribal elder wrote a book about the culture of their tribe, it's oral history and such. Then they published it themselves via LULU or a similar service. If the fact that person is a tribal elder is verifiable, then that should give them expertise.

Where as right now one could point to SPS and say an expert must have published a peer reviewed book or journal somewhere in order to make the SPS usable at all.

Do you see the difference what I propose would make?--Hfarmer (talk) 06:26, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you willing to have that standard applied to physics-related articles? If my own tiny community reveres me as an expert, and I'm promoting an idea widely rejected by mainstream scientists, then do I get to re-write those articles to include my theory that cold fusion can be performed if enough people around the world meditate? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I am. Here's why. When talking about fringe science their are going to be ample sources that support and refute that science. What we do now is cover both types of evidence. For every webpage about cold fusion that has any standing within a fringe cold fusion research community... their is one outside that community to refute it. Use them all.--Hfarmer (talk) 00:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

That would seem to go against the consensus expressed at WP:FRINGE - which I realize now is where this discussion should probably take place. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 05:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Not quite because what we are talking about more specifically is the use of SPS's in relation to a non fringe scientific theory. The issue that brought me here was a theory in psychology about the causation of transsexuality in biological males. In a sentence it basically says that all male to female transsexuals are either fetishistic cross dressers to the extreme, or really very gay men.

Now the transsexual community has written many things to refute these assertions and express their disagreement. Almost none of them have been published in a peer reviewed source. They don't have academic standing in the proper fields. The thing is almost all of these things run afoul of the current policy on self published sources. The result is that these articles have a systematic bias in favor of the sexologist.

One can think of other similar examples. Any article about a group of people, it could be a psychological, or anthropological article. The people with the credentials and standing to get somehting published may take one point of view. The people being written about may take another point of view but don't have the academic standing that it takes to get something published in the pertinent journals etc. So they self publish. Under current rules any such article will have a systematic bias in favor of those with academic standing in such a situation. When trust me having a degree does not mean you know what you are talking about.

I realize that the current wording does not mention academic degree's it mentions publishing in peer or editorially reviewed sources. In real life the only people who publish in such sources are people with advanced degree's... many editors will reject a submission from someone without such a degree out of hand. Wikipedia needs to do something to respond to cases like this. --Hfarmer (talk) 13:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:PAYWALL and freely accessible sources

Earlier today, I made this edit to the page, but was reverted six minutes later. What I wished to add to the section on accessibility of sources was "However, in cases where an equally reliable and more easily accessible source can be located, it should be used in preference or in addition to a source that is more difficult to access." The intent of this was to promote the use of peer-reviewed open access journals and the like, so that it would be easier for people wishing to check references and research further to do so. I am not sure why that is a bad idea... NW (Talk) 22:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The reverter didn't say it was a bad idea, they said that it needed to be discussed first. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I suppose I reverted the edit for the same reason you are in favor of it: it is not our place to promote (or not promote) open-access journals, or indeed any source over any other source. Whatever source the editor has at hand should suffice, and I don't think our policies should show favoritism beyond the minimal requirements of verifiability. Of course, if an editor wishes to refer to open source journals that is fine, so long as they are reliable sources, but that is different from saying that everyone should prefer the use of such journals. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 22:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The vast majority of people reading Wikipedia will be doing so from home, office, or mobile internet connections. A very small subset will be reading from academic and industry institutions and corporations that would have access to journals that one would have to pay for. Clearly, something like BMJ is just as reliable as Journal of the American Medical Association. The former is freely accessible and the latter is pay-to-view. Why should we not encourage the use of the former over the latter, or at the very least, both instead of just the latter? NW (Talk) 23:15, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Personally I don't approve of the proposed addition. The ease of access to or availability of a source has never, and should never, be a factor in verifiability. I know it is not the intent of the change... but people would use it to argue that we should prefer on-line sources over dead tree sources (and I strongly disagree with that idea). Blueboar (talk) 23:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I would definitely strongly oppose something like that. Could you think of anyway to wordsmith my addition to bring it more in line with what I actually meant? (see my BMJ/JAMA example above) NW (Talk) 23:24, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It may be true that most readers will not have access to the best sources, but I don't know that is a reason to prefer one set of sources over another. Verifiability is there to make sure we aren't just making stuff up. The proposed addition would augment that mission, I think. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 00:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, could you clarify? I'm not sure if I understood you properly. NW (Talk) 02:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I think BMJ vs. Journal of the American Medical Association if one finds an article in one that provides useful information for an article, it is unlikely one will find an article in the other that is equally suitable. A better example would be a modern paper printing of a 19th century English novel vs. the Project Gutenberg edition of the same novel. In any case, I think the editors are frugal enough that there will be little problem with using sources that are more expensive than necessary, and I'd hate to put in anything that can be used as an excuse to suppress material from high quality journals. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I was trying to say that the fact that the majority of Wikipedia's readers do not access it from a library where they could find the traditional journals is not a reason to change the policy. The purpose of verifiability is to ensure that our content is high quality, even accurate. I would say that anything that does not contribute primarily to that goal should not be a part of policy. Otherwise, we get into issues of mission creep. So, a preference for open-access journals does not contribute to the core mission of verifiability, however much consensus there might be among Wikipedia editors that they would like free access to the latest research. I don't think we should have a preference for or against open-access journals as a part of our policy on what it takes to show that we aren't just making the encyclopedia up as we go along. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 14:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, emphasizing paywalled sources can have a devastating effect on quality in that they are quite difficult to verify. Thus someone can cite a paywalled source as saying something when the source does not say it at all, and the chances that it gets verified are slim to none. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Jagged_85 for an example. On the other hand, if someone uses an open-access/self-archived source, it may be a little lower-quality but it has still been peer-reviewed and we can easily check that it says what it is purported to say. Further, the readers benefit enormously from having much more detail available at the click of a link. I can understand the concern with the language, but ultimately I support NuclearWarfare's edit to the page and personally nearly always search for open-access sources as a starting point. II | (t - c) 14:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of verifiability is to ensure that our content is high quality, even accurate. I would say that anything that does not contribute primarily to that goal should not be a part of policy. - I absolutely agree with this, but you seem to be overlooking that the free availability of a source very directly contributes to that goal. The point of citing sources is to enable others to check statements, and the easier it is made for them, the better the factual accuracy will become. To put it another way, it is already a well-known strategy among hoaxers to cite publications that are reputable but are hard to access.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem with hoaxes is an interesting one, although I haven't seen it. In any case, it is one thing to build an case around an article in a 1914 journal that only ever published 3 volumes and is currently held only in Winnipeg. It is another to require that a journal have free online access. What precisely is the change intended to accomplish? Are we going to replace non-open-access citations with open-access ones? That would just be silly and wouldn't contribute to solving the hoax problem. Are we going to augment existing citations with open-access ones? That is already possible under existing policies, although it would be more the realm of a WikiProject than a policy change. Are we going to demand that, before someone adds a citation, they search for an open-access alternative? That sounds like a make-work project and certainly not something that should be built into policy (concurring with WP:DIG, WP:KISS, and WP:KUDZU). So, while I agree that the core mission of verifiability could be enhanced if facts were easily verifiable, a stated preference for open-access journals does not seem to be a good way to do so. Haven't we already discussed whether sources must be online, or whether we should prefer online sources, and come out against that? This seems even narrower than that case. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 14:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Exactly... we want the most reliable sources for any statement. Ease of access has nothing to do with reliability. Sometimes the most reliable source will be easily accessible... sometimes the most reliable source will not be easily accessible. We still want the most reliable source. Blueboar (talk) 14:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

One example of this hoaxing strategy (the one I remembered offhand, there are many more):

I appended a footnote to the section calling Handel a "Nazi" with a reference to an article in the Oxford Times, a reliable source, to be sure, but one of which there is no digital archive anywhere ... (WebCite). What could he [the Wikipedian trying to fact-check the fake] do now? It was referenced to a "reliable source" and therefore untouchable, never mind that no such article had ever been published.

This lead to the hoax article being featured on the Main Page for six hours, see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-03-08/News and notes.

As for your objections, they are mostly valid in principle, but seem to be addressed in NuclearWarfare's suggested wording, esepecially by the "equally reliable" precondition. Of course one wouldn't want to discourage offline or paywalled sources altogether (i.e. when there is no such alternative), I have cited many such sources myself. Regards, HaeB (talk) 15:15, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

If anything, I would say that "equally reliable" precondition makes things less problematic. How would my objections not refer to any statement of preference, not matter how worded? RJC ^Talk_Contribs 15:23, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I too would you agree that the phrase inclusion of the phrase "equally reliable" would make my addition not-problematic. Is that what you meant? NW (Talk) 15:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

No, I think the statement of preference is itself problematic. HaeB suggested that it was only the "equally reliable" phrase that made it problematic. I think its absence would make the statement of preference more problematic, but even with it the statement still seems to run into the problems with any statement of preference (either non-open-access sources must be replaced, or they must be there in tandem, or editors should do additional work, none of which seem appropriate policy changes). RJC ^Talk_Contribs 15:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I think this is a bad idea. This page should not be advocating selection of sources based on price. The concept would make a fine essay, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

reboot

Rebooting this then, as I see valid comments made above. What about an addition like this:

However, in cases where the best source will be difficult for the layperson to obtain, if possible, editors should (but are by no means required to) attempt to add a second reliable yet more accessible source to the article in addition to the best source.

Not really the best of wording, I think you can get my intention? NW (Talk) 20:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It still sounds like an essay or WikiProject, not a policy or guideline. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 20:58, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Policies merely encourage things all the time, see WP:NONENG and all of Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. NW (Talk) 21:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Note also that the content guideline Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine-related articles) says "When all else is equal, it is better to cite a source whose full text is freely readable, so that your readers can follow the link to the source." NW (Talk) 18:23, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

You also have to consider the longevity of the source. Those paywall journals, online or in-print, are likely to be around forever. A free web-only source can disappear, and many have. I prefer a dead tree source whenever possible. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 00:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

That is why one would cite both, and use webcitation if there is even a chance that it would disappear... NW (Talk) 03:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that such paywall sources should only be used if someone has actually looked at the paper being referenced in full. (Sometimes it's possible to find a copy of the PDF of such a source published unofficially on the internet.) Very often we end up relying only on the abstracts of the articles which can be a little misleading at times.

To look at all such sources will sound expensive. However WP has allot of contributors who have academic positions as students, or faculty at universities. Many universities have institutional subscriptions to thousands of journals. So we should try to enlist such Wikipedians to look these sources up for those who cannot. I know that sounds like allot of work. Did anyone say writing an encyclopedia would be a walk in the park? --Hfarmer (talk) 13:53, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

We should try to make it as much of a walk in the park as possible, lest "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" in practice mean "the encyclopedia anyone without a job can edit." At the very least, we shouldn't make it more difficult. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 14:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

"Paywall sources should only be used if someone has actually looked at the paper being referenced in full." Game, set and match to Hfarmer. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:15, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

We already have that service: Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange. Additionally, most of the larger WikiProjects have a few people who have access to an unusual number of sources in the relevant area. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:41, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I have access to most paywalled sources, but the average reader will not, nor will they have any idea about that particular WikiProject. That's who my addition was aimed at. NW (Talk) 23:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

"Those paywall journals, online or in-print, are likely to be around forever" - for online journals, this is unfounded speculation. There is good reason to assume that quite the opposite is true. While the library system ensures that old print journals remain available when their publisher goes out of business, there isn't much experience yet with what happens when the publisher of a paywalled online journal goes out of business. It is very well possible that old journals will become unavailable when the company's servers are switched off. Open access journals, on the other hand, benefit from the possibility of archival by third parties (many are already doing so, e.g. the Internet Archive). Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The recent changes to WP:PAYWALL are encouraging people to include sources that they have not actually used. IMO this is borderline dishonest: editors need to cite their real sources, not "pretend" sources that they found later.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a bibliography or cheat-sheet for college students who aren't allowed to cite Wikipedia on their papers. We need to name the actual sources that we actually used. If the fact is easily verifiable through other sources, then that's great -- but our readers are smart enough to ask their favorite web search engines for alternative sources; we don't need to spoonfeed them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Even "if it can be verified that both support the claim", there's still no plausible reason for demanding that editors produce twice as many citations as are actually necessary. Either PAYWALLed sources are sufficient and appropriate, or they're not. This idea that editors who are using high-quality sources need to spam a bunch of free (as in "free beer") sources into an already-well-cited article is not working for me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Asking people to perform a simple courtesy if they can ("should", not "must") does not equal demand. Our purpose is to provide information to readers, including follow-up citations should they wish to look information up. If the vast majority of them cannot access, for example, an article in Nature, then we can at least do them the courtesy of linking them to an open access journal that they can read. If the book used to support a quotation by a historical figure is out-of-print and the same information might exist on a university website, then why shouldn't we encourage people to link that as well? NW (Talk) 23:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I think paywall and offline sources are generally fine, but there are occasions where they're problematic. I ran into one bad-faith editor who deliberately used hard-to-check sources as a way to sneak bogus information into an article - he'd cite things like "Interview in Playboy Magazine, 1987", or old copies of small-circulation newspapers that don't have an online archive, or records in the archives of a specific court. On the occasions where we were able to check his sources, we almost invariably found they didn't support his edits; in some cases they didn't even exist as cited. He made a lot of use of socks and IP edits, so banning didn't solve the problem.

In that situation, I don't think the usual approach works - it puts us in a position where one malicious editor can spend a couple of minutes faking a source, and we have to spend much longer checking it before we can remove the 'cited' rubbish (from a BLP, at that). Context matters. --GenericBob (talk) 00:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

That is a problem, but I don't know that this addition is a way to resolve that. The person doing that would still claim, after all, that they don't have a good easily-available source, which would be fine even under the new wording. Again, since I do not see what good the proposed addition can do if it is reasonable, I oppose adding anything to its effect (since for it to have an effect, it must be an unreasonable request for additional busiwork, not citing the source they actually used, etc.). RJC ^Talk_Contribs 02:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with NW that some words to this effect would be helpful, because editors are increasingly using material that can only be accessed (easily) via a university database. So I would support wording along the lines of: "When source material lies behind a paywall, editors are encouraged, though not required, to supply a second, equivalent source that is more accessible." I can't see the harm in putting it in the form of a gentle reminder. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I also support NW's new wording -- it seems very sensible to me to include a suggestion to keep the majority of our readers (who don't have access to academic journals) in mind, and provide free alternatives in addition to whatever non-free sources we might have, whenever possible. This will make verifying information easier, and will increase people's confidence in the correctness of the articles in question. Even if you wish to ignore the (bulletproof) argument that non-free sources are much less likely to be verified and are likely to be abused, there is still no harm that would come from including NW's addition. If people want to ignore the suggestion, they can. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 07:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Why require double citations?

If the community has a goal of providing free-beer sources to readers, then the community should have enough courage to come out and say that: i.e., "If you have a choice between a (at least minimally acceptable) free-beer-online source and an excellent offline source or a high-quality source behind a paywall, then you should always choose the free-beer-online source for the convenience of readers and future editors".

And if we don't happen to believe this, then we shouldn't be pushing double citations, and should instead let readers and future editors find their own free-beer-online sources. (After all, if it's always so quick and easy for the original editor to search for and cite two perfectly good sources for every statement in an article previously supported by a PAYWALLed source, then presumably future editors will be smart enough and have plenty of time to find just the second source themselves.)

I don't think that you're all grasping reality here: Double citations cost us time and energy, and the only people who will follow the directions are the ones whose time could be better spent on more productive activities. Maybe the thing to do is this: Go pick a long, well-written article in some technical field (which can be presumed to have lots of non-free-beer sources). I'll suggest Schizophrenia, if you can't find one on your own. Identify and double-cite every single one of the claims to make it be a stellar example of what you think is best practice. Then come back and tell us how long that took you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

While I support your strong defense of ensuring we use high quality sources, you don't appear to be addressing the modifications suggested here. The suggestions are not REQUIRING easily reached resources (free doesn't always mean poor), only SUGGESTING they be provided if the editor chooses and the editor finds EQUIVALENT, easily reached resources. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 19:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I strongly oppose any requirements here, and have serious concerns as to "suggesting". A reliable source is a reliable source, whether it is easy to access or not. We should not even hint that free-online-easy to access is in some way "better", because that simply isn't true. My problem is that by suggesting it, we imply a preference that does not exist. Blueboar (talk) 19:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

That is an argument I struggle with. It is true accessibility does not influence the reliability of a source and should be ignored in assessing reliability. But more people are available to verify the information if it is in a more accessible place. If the same article is available both behind a paywall and free, Wikipedia would be better served if the free version is referenced. But trying to say that in these guidelines without diluting the important message of using the best sources may prove impossible. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 20:19, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Why should we not "hint that free-online-easy to access is in some way "better"? It is better in one way -- namely that any editor can quickly and easily verify information from them, whereas with non-free sources, most people will not be able to verify things easily, if at all. This is not to imply that free sources are generally "superior" or "better". But as far as accessibility and ensuring accuracy of our articles through verifiability, free sources are more helpful to the large majority of users. Nobody is talking about forcing people to choose free articles over non-free, or forcing them to find free articles. They are only suggesting that we make a suggestion that if you feel like it it might be helpful (not superior) to find high-quality free sources in addition to any non-free sources you wish to cite. Nobody has really given a reason why such a suggestion shouldn't be made, other than setting up straw men about how we are telling readers that they should prefer free sources, implying that free sources are always superior to non-free, or are forcing them to find free sources, etc. None of these are true. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 20:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

My point is that the value of the _information_ in a source is independent of how we are able to access it. The value of the information is the most important part of a reliable source. Yes, it helps in the _verification process_ if the information is readily accessible, but that is not enough reason to reduce our standards for the information itself. If we can find a way to not even HINT that we should reduce the quality of the information in deference to accessibility, then I would be okay with it. But doing so will be difficult, I think. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 23:19, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Straw man. Nobody is suggesting that we reduce our standards or the quality of our information. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 23:56, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

You are not understanding me. I believe you do not want to reduce the standards for information. I am just worried that any wording that attempts to encourage the use of free sources here (for verification _process_ reasons) will be interpreted as meaning they have an advantage in information quality. The distinction needs to be very clear. I welcome attempts to prove my doubts unfounded. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 03:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I run into many situations in scientific articles where the exact same paper, normally in PDF format, is available on some for-pay site, as well on a free site (typically the author's or their university). I generally switch the URL in the citation in such cases to the free one, to improve source accessibility, which I see as similar to "wayback-izing" a dead link. I would support careful language added to the policy which would recommend that in cases where the same online source document is available on both for-pay as well as free sites, the free URL is recommended. Crum375 (talk) 23:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I think much of the above amounts to the consequence of WP's ongoing use of "verifiable" as a substitute for "verified". If we actually had a mechanism for saying "this paywalled/deadtree source has been verified by user X and user Y to support the statement in the text it is cited against", I would be much more comfortable with the use of such sources. There's a big difference between applying AGF to specific, identified editors' work and applying it to every accumulated edit. The former is a constructive social policy that enables collaboration. The latter flies in the face of our collective experience that vandalism, POV, and other problems routinely affect articles. Absent such a mechanism the use of fair-use quotes from such less-readily accessible works borders on essential to verification. As a purely practical matter, the fact that fewer such sources will be checked does mean the assertions they back are succeptible to more undetected errors. In this context free does mean better.LeadSongDog come howl! 04:19, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• On the comment by Crum375, we do need to keep in mind that self-archiving is increasingly available even if authors often don't use it - reportedly around 90% (Open_access_(publishing)#Adoption_statistics) of journals allow self-archiving. For example, both Nature (policy) and Science (policy) allow preprints to be posted on the web (with Science seemingly more restrictive), and many other journals allow for postprints. Noting the existence of these full-text freely-available copies and where to find them (Google Scholar being one of the best places to dig them out). II | (t - c) 04:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Some areas have real problems with sources that are trivially available online. A newspaper article about a "medical discovery" is not really an adequate substitute for the peer-reviewed journal article that it's supposedly based upon, even though they are both nominally "reliable" sources under Wikipedia's basic standards.

As a current example, one of today's problems is due to The New York Times apparently issuing a posthumous misdiagnosis that asserts baseball star Lou Gehrig didn't have Lou Gehrig's disease -- on the grounds that some hockey players have the symptoms of a completely separate motor neuron disease. The paywalled source says nothing about either Gehrig or baseball... but you'd never know that, if you focused on the free-beer-online sources.

(IMO this source shouldn't be used at all, since the original paper is definitely WP:PRIMARY literature, but providing a second, "free" source that seriously misrepresents it is far worse than citing the original..) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Nobody was talking about using the New York Times as a free substitute for medical journals. It seems that the proposed guideline has been changed away from saying "equally reliable free source", but if that was re-inserted, it would resolve any concerns with using poor sources like the New York Times. And also, nobody is talking about using sources that misrepresent the primary source anyway -- if the equally reliable free source is not making exactly the same assertion as the non-free source, it shouldn't be used as a citation for that assertion. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 17:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you're being very practical about this. This is how it works, out there in the "real" wikiworld: I (temporarily mislay my editorial judgment and) cite the primary paper. You come along and can't get to the source, but you look around and discover the NYT story about the article, and you double-cite it per your proposal. (You are unfortunately unaware that the NYT screwed up in this instance, but it's an honest mistake.)

Next week, a new editor reads just the NYT article, because of the PAYWALL issue. The new editor changes the text of the article to reflect the misinformation in the NYT article, rather than the good information from the PAYWALLed primary source. Now the bad information is "supported" by the peer-reviewed paper -- that the new editor never read, and that the source does not support. The end result is material that is both Not True™ and unverifiable -- and it's got two authoritative-looking citations behind it, and nobody has acted in anything except the best of faith.

IMO we cannot push for double-citations and prevent this from happening -- and this scenario could never have happened, if we didn't push for extra citations to free-beer-online sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

In response to your scenario, I will repeat my above statement: ...nobody is talking about using sources that misrepresent the primary source anyway -- if the equally reliable free source is not making exactly the same assertion as the non-free source, it shouldn't be used as a citation for that assertion. ... so unless both the PAYWALL source AND the free source were wrong, then we don't have a problem. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 18:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(P.S. I just realized that the misunderstanding might be my ambiguous use of the term "primary source" above. I should have say "the original PAYWALL source" (I meant primary as in "first"/"original", rather than in the sense of WP:PRIMARY). Was that the problem?)-- Jrtayloriv (talk) 18:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

And in my scenario, how exactly do you magically discover that that the NYT article misrepresents the journal article? I have specified that "You are unfortunately unaware that the NYT screwed up." I don't cite the NYT article because it's wrong; you -- not having advanced mind-reading skills, apparently -- cite NYT because you are trying to "helpfully" comply with this proposed rule for double-citations. Consequently, we are talking about (accidentally) citing sources that misrepresent the original paper. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

If WP:V is being followed, then the problem you mentioned wouldn't exist. Let me try to explain this more clearly:

For starters, assume that the PAYWALL source is both correct and of very high-quality. Now assume that the assertion that it is backing in the Wikipedia article is an accurate and neutral depiction of what the PAYWALL source actually says. That is, the assertion in the Wikipedia article is not a misrepresentation of the text of the PAYWALL source. Now somebody comes along with a hypothetical free article, of equal reliability. Two things are possible:

1. The free article makes exactly the same claim as the PAYWALL source (i.e. it makes the exact assertion that we are putting in the Wikipedia article), and thus can be used as an additional citation per WP:V. In this case, the free article does not contradict the PAYWALL source, and thus your scenario does not occur.
2. The free article does not make exactly the same assertion as the one in the article and PAYWALL source. In this case, we should not be using it as a source for an assertion it doesn't make, per WP:V (nor does the proposed guideline here suggest that we should). If somebody chooses to include this source anyway, then they are violating WP:V. This is not a problem with suggesting that they find a free alternative to back the assertion. It's a problem with them not finding a free alternative that backs the assertion.

Do you see what I'm saying now? The proposed guideline does not anywhere suggest that "it's a good idea to find a free source, even if it doesn't actually back the assertion being referenced to it". If your scenario occured, that's because of a problem with an editor who decided to ignore WP:V. It's not a problem with the proposed guideline.-- Jrtayloriv (talk) 19:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The "right" way for this to happen: the hapless editor who inserts the "NYT only" information should cite that information ONLY to the NYT (by moving the cite or adding an additional footnote). But the hapless editor has no way of knowing if he is operating under case 1 or 2 above - he is likely, with good faith - to assume he is operating under scenario 1. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 19:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Clarifying my first sentence: If people follow the rules, that's what should happen. The proposed change makes it much more likely that users will (in good faith) break the rules. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 20:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by your first sentence -- could you clarify how that relates to the scenario myself and WhatamIdoing are discussing?

But as far as the editor not knowing whether they are operating under case 1 or 2 above -- I just responded to this possibility above when WhatamIdoing suggested it. Again, this a problem with the editor, not with the proposed guideline. This scenario (accidentally inserting an assertion, referenced by a source that doesn't make this assertion) is already a possibility, under the current guidelines. It is prohibited by WP:V, and should be fixed when an editor notices it. Furthermore, as has also already been stated, this problem is equally likely to occur with a PAYWALL source, and will generally be repaired more slowly than with a free, instantly accessible source. The proposed addition in no way suggests that we start violating WP:V, and in no way increases the potential for this sort of violation to occur. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree: The hapless newbie will blindly and blithely assume that all the sources contain equivalent information.

The problem is that sources usually contain more than one piece of information. So I write (in my hypothetical example) "Some forms of MND have been documented in certain professional athletes" (a fact that should be present in both the NYT article and the original paper, so Jrtayloriv might even have verified that the NYT article supported the existing statement).

But the newbie reads solely the NYT article and changes it to the big story, i.e., "A new study indicates that baseball star Lou Gehrig may not have had Lou Gehrig's disease", a "fact" that can only be found in the NYT article. Because Jrtayloriv has (in my hypothetical example) provided this unnecessary double-citation, the newbie is likely to assume that whatever's in the NYT story is actually in the journal article. If we cited only the original (i.e., the sole source actually used in writing the original statement, and thus the sole source appropriate under WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT rules), the newbie would know that s/he didn't know what was in the peer-reviewed paper, and would be more likely to either leave it alone (perhaps muttering to himself about paywalls) or to create a new sentence with a separate citation (if he were already aware of the NYT story). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Your hypothetical double-citation is a violation of WP:V, which the proposed addition does not suggest we start violating. As I said in my response above:

This scenario (accidentally inserting an assertion, referenced by a source that doesn't make this assertion) is already a possibility, under the current guidelines. It is prohibited by WP:V, and should be fixed when an editor notices it. Furthermore, as has also already been stated, this problem is equally likely to occur with a PAYWALL source, and will generally be repaired more slowly than with a free, instantly accessible source. The proposed addition in no way suggests that we start violating WP:V, and in no way increases the potential for this sort of violation to occur. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 19:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. Think about it: You happen to know the Truth™ (i.e., that the original scientific paper doesn't mention Lou Gehrig or baseball). The free-beer-online source is wrong -- in part. It could be used to support fact X and misinformation Y, but only fact X is in the original paper.

A less-informed, but good-faith, editor believes the news fiction is completely correct, and adds misinformation Y based on the free-beer-online source. You revert to the accurate version about fact X with a standard edit summary like "Failed verification, Lou Gehrig not mentioned in source" (because it did fail verification, as far as the original, authoritative source is concerned) -- and you get reverted, because some uninformed editor clicked on the free-beer-online source, saw that the NYT article does, indeed, mention Lou Gehrig, couldn't click on the paywalled source but blindly assumed that the NYT got it right (they often do, after all), and decided that you made a mistake.

If you hadn't insisted on citing the news fiction in the first place, then none of this would happen. A handful of people might grump about the paywall, but nobody would have screwed up the content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I've already responded to this above. This is a problem with the editor making the error -- a problem which is already a possibility under current guidelines, and which the proposed suggestion in no way exacerbates. Your hypothetical error-prone editor could just as easily insert misinformation from a non-free source. Both non-free and free sources can be incorrect, or can be misinterpreted. Including this incorrect information, or including misinterpretations of correct information is already possible under current guidelines, regardless of whether free or non-free sources are used. The cost of the source has nothing to do with reliability or accuracy. If in your scenario, you know that the NYT is incorrect, and have sources to prove it, then you should remove the citation to the NYT article -- nowhere does the current proposal suggest "even if a source is demonstrably incorrect, you should keep it because it's free". Reliability and accuracy are dealt with in WP:V. The proposed guideline in no way overrides or contradicts WP:V, and is dealing instead with the issue of accessibility. The current proposal would only help fix the problem you are mentioning faster, assuming we do what the proposal suggests, which is to include correct representations of high-quality and accurate free sources, by enabling all editors to instantly verify information from such a source. It does not suggest that we do what your scenario is talking about which is citing low-quality incorrect sources, and then having editors make sure that this incorrect information is included in Wikipedia articles. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 20:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Under the current rules, you aren't spoonfeeding an unnecessary and potentially wrong "free beer online" source to the newbie. We'd cite the pricey-but-excellent source and stop, without implying any equivalence with any other sources. Under the proposed rules, you are setting up the newbie to make this mistake -- and also implying that interested readers aren't capable of asking their favorite web search engines for further information, if they either can't or won't get access to a free-beer source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

As far as free sources being "potentially wrong", I've already said above that the cost has nothing to do with quality. PAYWALL sources can be wrong too. And if it's wrong, we fix it. That's a problem with the editor adding incorrect information, not with the proposed guideline. And it can happen under current rules already. And this proposal in no way increases the probability of that happening. I'll say it again -- Nobody is suggesting including incorrect, inaccurate or low-quality free (or non-free) sources. Nothing in this proposal will increase the likelihood of that happening.. So please stop repeatedly focusing only on the hypothetical case of incorrect free sources -- nobody is suggesting that, and it has nothing to do with this proposal.

As far as being "unnecessary" to provide an additional source -- I disagree. It's very often beneficial to have multiple sources cited for an assertion, so that the reader can be exposed to the deeper and wider context that comes from seeing multiple perspectives on the issue.

As far as including free sources "implying that interested readers aren't capable of asking their favorite web search engines for further information" -- this is not at all true. Does including non-free sources imply that readers can't search for journals on their own? Why do we provide sources at all? Why not just make assertions, and let them Google/JSTOR/etc it if they want to see that it's true? We provide sources so that people can quickly verify the information in the articles, rather than having to do a bunch of research to find out who made the assertion, if it's true, etc. This applies to any sources, free or not. Having free, universally accessible sources just makes this verification process simpler and faster. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 23:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, I share your opinion that peer-reviewed scientific journals should generally be regarded as more reliable than newspapers. But, as Jrtayloriv has explained, the example that you constructed here and spent so many lines discussing is offtopic and does nothing to address the question at hand.

Your scenario would work equally well the other way round: Replace The New York Times by The Times or another paywalled newspaper, and the paywalled academic journal (Journal of Neuropathology & Experimental Neurology, I assume) by an open access one, say PLoS Biology. (Just two months ago, The Times had to issue a major retraction of an article on a scientific topic.) Then you can run the entire argument in the opposite direction: If only that hapless Times reader had been encouraged by WP:V to look for an additional freely acessible source, etc.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I think this discussion is going in circles. I have not seen significant support for the proposed change and I do not think that new arguments will be offered that would persuade the holdouts. I propose dropping it. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 00:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you are summarizing the discussion accurately. "not seen significant support" - so you are considering the opinions of NW, SlimVirgin, Jrtayloriv, Crum375 and myself to be insignificant? Care to explain why?

In practice the reliability of Wikipedia is a function of the quality of its sources and the accessibility of these sources, as demonstrated by the hoaxes mentioned above. Fact-checking is a vital part of Wikipedia's process to ensure quality. And as GenericBob said above, not providing an equivalent freely accessible source when it is possible to do so with little effort can often lead to situations where fact-checking is needlessly impeded a great deal.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Also have to add myself to that list, HaeB. RJC, I don't mean to be mean but you should be careful about misrepresenting 'support' in these types of discussions. II | (t - c) 05:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I apologize if I offended anyone. By lack of significant support I did not mean that the support registered was insignificant, merely that it was not widespread enough to justify changing the page. I wonder, though, whether anyone is on the fence about this such that further discussion will sway them. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 13:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• I am in agreement with RJC and I oppose both the original and "reboot" proposals by NW. A great many WP articles rely on books, old newspapers and other off-line sources, that may not be available online at all or that are only available online for a fee. This applies, in particular, to most newspaper archives. I don't want to have any language in WP:V that, directly or indirectly, discourages or devalues the use of such sources. The original idea of NW of encouraging the use of open access scholarly journals is also, at this point in time, problematic. I am an academic myself and, in my observations, it is far too early to start encouraging references to open access journals in preference over traditional printed ones. In my own field, mathematics, almost all open access journals at this point are very low quality journals - basically paper mills with extremely perfunctory/pro forma peer review that make a profit by charging rather exorbitant per page publication fees to the authors. I suspect that the situation is similar in many of the other fields. It may well be that in a few years things will change, but not yet. Nsk92 (talk) 06:23, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• There is nothing in the proposal that discourages the use of any form of non-free source. There is also nothing in the proposal suggesting people use a low-quality non-free source. If a high-quality free source does not exist, then a free source should not be used.-- Jrtayloriv (talk) 07:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• That is a matter of interpretation. I am pretty sure that any such language, as that used in the proposal, will in practice be interpreted by many as giving some sort of preference and weight to free online sources. As a practical matter, the proposal is also redundant. In practice most editors use various types of google searching first, when looking for sources, and if they find free online sources, they use them. I do not feel it is at all necessary to give any extra encouragement for the use of such sources. On the other hand, any form of discouraging the use of off-line sources is, in my opinion, highly problematic and likely to cause more problems than it solves. Nsk92 (talk) 07:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• Also, the proposal seems to be based on a fairly naive view of how sources are used. A source is not always simply used to verify some basic fact (such that a particular person was born on such and such date). Often sources are used to represent different views of various experts on a particular topic, involving a polemic on that topic; in such a situation it is a bad idea to give extra ammunition to anyone who will want to argue that free online sources in such a polemic should be given extra weight. It is also often the case than an authoritative text on some topic is an off-line book or article - in such a case the use of such an off-line source should be given priority over the use of free on-line sources. And so on. I can foresee many types of situations where an explicit encouragement of the use of free online sources over other types of sources may lead to problems. On the other hand, as I said above, IMO in practice any such encouragement is unnecessary since people tend to try to find free offline sources first anyway (in fact perhaps more than they should - there are many cases where it is really preferable to expand some time and go to the library to look-up some comprehensive authoritative off-line source on a particular topic). Nsk92 (talk) 08:07, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Nsk92, you are making a lot of unsubstantiated and far-reaching claims here. Which of the journals listed here are "basically paper mills with extremely perfunctory/pro forma peer review that make a profit by charging rather exorbitant per page publication fees to the authors"? Do you regard Geometry & Topology and the Bulletin of the American Mathematical Society as "very low quality journals"? Regards, HaeB (talk) 13:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Geometry and Topology is an excellent journal (I have published there two papers myself -:), but it is not an open access journal in the traditional sense, see subscription information here[1]. The journal does charge for print and electronic subscription, although electronic access becomes free 3 years after publication. I am not sure what the subscription model with the Bulletin of AMS is but I do receive it every month, together with AMS Notices, as an AMS member. I think it is largely financed by the AMS membership fees. It probably is open access but among the math journals this is rather an exception. I know that LMS also has one free journal LMS Journal of Computation and Mathematics, where both access and publication are free. Note that both of these examples (Bulletin of AMS and are fairly LMS Journal of Computation and Mathematics) are exceptional in the sense that they don't charge for either publication or access and are completely free to both authors and readers. Typical open access journals charge significant publication fees to the authors. I don't know of any good math journals of this latter kind and every single one that I have seen does look like a paper mill with exorbitant publication fees. Nsk92 (talk) 14:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of the existence of specific counterexample to Nsk92's assertion, it is by and large the case that open access material is of a substantially lower quality than content behind a paywall. But, even excepting this particular point, Nsk92 seems to have struck the proverbial nail squarely on its head. We scarcely need to do more to encourage the use of online open access content. What we should be doing is encouraging the use of the best quality sources, regardless of the mode of access—free, paywall, or dead-tree should not even enter into the calculation. Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Fresh eyes would be appreciated

Yet another science-related sourcing guideline is being proposed at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (science-related articles). Fresh eyes would be appreciated to make sure it does not turn into a sourcing fork of this policy, or an SPOV fork of NPOV. Already my efforts to ensure newspapers are not ruled out as reliable sources have been reverted. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 17:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I see you've posted this notice on several talk pages... but that you've never left a note on the proposal's talk page. Is there some particular reason that you're unable to edit the proposal's talk page? I would think that editors would be interested in hearing about your concerns if you would take the time to explain them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Textbooks

"University-level textbooks" should not be collated with non-academic sources. Is there any particular reason why they're mentioned in the same sentence? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 02:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It's more complex than that. Intro-level textbooks are not necessarily written by those with deep expertise in a given field. Commercial considerations also play a major, major role in intro-level textbooks and significantly influence the content. Upper-division and (post)graduate textbooks are more like academic sources. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course it is. But a "graded" editorial approach is better when dealing with "graded" secondary/tertiary sources (as these), and we shouldn't oversimplify—that can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings. Perhaps WP:RS is a better place for this discussion, but I still think it should be explored in further detail. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 12:42, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Citation of geographical coordinates

I have been told that it is not necessary to cite the coordinates supplied by {{coord}} and related templates. Is this mistaken? If they need sources, what kind of sources would be required? Mangoe (talk) 19:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I would cite them anyway, if you can. Try using one of the sites listed in Wikipedia:Obtaining geographic coordinates as a source. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 13:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)