Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy: Difference between revisions

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:::::Ok, that looks interesting. I'll see if I can help out. [[User:ItsZippy|ItsZippy]] <sup>([[User Talk:ItsZippy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ItsZippy|Contributions]])</sup> 19:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
:::::Ok, that looks interesting. I'll see if I can help out. [[User:ItsZippy|ItsZippy]] <sup>([[User Talk:ItsZippy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ItsZippy|Contributions]])</sup> 19:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

== Input requested in article move discussion ==

Hi. Readers at this page may be interested in contributing to the discussion at [[Talk:Jeffersonian democracy#Requested move]]. Thanks in advance for any input. -[[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]]<sup>([[User talk:GTBacchus|talk]])</sup> 16:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:40, 9 September 2011

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used

Proposed Changes to Atheism Article

Hi, a series of proposed changes to the atheism article and have been outlined at Talk:Atheism#article_.2F_source_discrepancies, comments would be appreciated.

The Barnstar of Notability in Philosophy

For those who truly earn it: The Barnstar of Notability, For seminal ideas in philosophy, like creating the concept of "notability" in Wikipedia article space. "There is something new under the sun" is true if there is something new under the sun.

WikiProject Philosophy Logic and Humor Task Force

From the department of redundancy department, presenting the following secion -

WikiProject Philosophy Logic and Humor Task Force

WikiProject WikiProject Philosophy Logic and Humor Task Force Members

Would anyone like to join me in starting a WikiProject Philosophy Logic and Humor Task Force, jointly with the WP:WikiProject Department of Fun? Once there are five names above, we can start our task list. Sign your name in the quote box above.

Relativist fallacy

I'm a new editor. Would someone please nominate Relativist Fallacy for deletion please! It's unsupported slander, nothing more. BlueMist (talk) 18:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there I'm quite new too. I also recognise there can be a problem with this securely defined and very negative term "fallacy" being assigned to loosely defined instances of them. So i made a tweak to the lede which will hopefully survive [[1]]. For myself, the rest of the article already reads as a tentatively put and a useful attempt to explain what is meant by this phrase in conversations. 'hth Lisnabreeny (talk) 12:57, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much, Lisnabreeny! Unfortunately, it's the title of the entry that is blatantly offensive. It is ingrained bigotry against Eastern, relativist, and modern (Galilean, Darwinian) relativistic scientific thought. This is very much like racism or sexism, held by a billion people, including the vast majority of Westerners, Christians, and even some site administrators! see: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Relativist_fallacy - BlueMist (talk) 12:22, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure where I stand on the validity of the label "relativistic fallacy", but you seem to be taking inordinate offense at it, and not making overt sense in the process. A (possible) bias against a certain abstract philosophical position is like racism or sexism? When was the last time someone was denied a job or the right to vote or attacked in the streets or anything like that just because they espoused relativism? Get some perspective. Also, are you accusing "the vast majority of Westerners, Christians, and even some site administrators" of espousing racism and sexism, or of espousing relativism? The way you word it, it sounds like the former. Either way, it's blatantly untrue.
You also seem to have a very muddled concept of "relativism". Galilean relativism is not at all the kind of relativism talked about in the article in question; nobody appeals to Galilean relativism to say "the Earth may revolve around the sun to you, but the sun revolves around the Earth to me". And Darwinism (itself a loaded term in modern context) has nothing to do with relativism at all. Nor does most of modern science, except in limited technical senses like Galilean relativism or Einsteinian relativism, which are again not what the article in question is discussing. --Pfhorrest (talk) 17:58, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Come on. In good faith i dont believe anyone is meaning to offend anyone, including that 'very muddled' remark. Lets not waste steam on dressing ups and dressing downs. Lisnabreeny (talk) 20:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My view is that the existing article has severe problems, but that the term 'relativist fallacy' is used sufficiently often in reputable literature to justify an article. The meaning taken for it appears to vary: most commonly it is taken to mean either the belief that all ideas are equally valid, or the belief that there is no such thing as objective truth. The article, in my view, should explain how the term is used but should be neutral about whether such usage is valid (i.e., whether it actually is in fact a fallacy). Looie496 (talk) 18:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A problem is -there is no agreement about what fallacys really are, to say what is "really" a fallacy or not!

'What is a fallacy? Researchers disagree about how to define the very term “fallacy.” Focusing just on fallacies in sense ... fallacies of argumentation, some researchers define a fallacy as an argument that is deductively invalid or that has very little inductive strength. Because examples of false dilemma, inconsistent premises, and begging the question are valid arguments in this sense, this definition misses some standard fallacies. Other researchers say a fallacy is a mistake in an argument that arises from something other than merely false premises. But the false dilemma fallacy is due to false premises. Still other researchers define a fallacy as an argument that is not good. Good arguments are then defined as those that are deductively valid or inductively strong, and that contain only true, well-established premises, but are not question-begging. A complaint with this definition is that its requirement of truth would improperly lead to calling too much scientific reasoning fallacious; every time a new scientific discovery caused scientists to label a previously well-established claim as false, all the scientists who used that claim as a premise would become fallacious reasoners.' [2]

But I think we cant help if notable phrases are in themselves open to misuse, except when their articles misrepresent them. Although i am not familiar with this area, the article reads tentatively to me, so i would urge BlueMist to think about what might be added to it in order to clarify the nature of the phrase. Lisnabreeny (talk) 20:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, maybe I'll try an argument or two: Absolutism says that P is True; Relativism says that P is true only in relation to Q.

Relativism universally holds in the real world, so far without any known exceptions (only God is absolute, if you're of faith), both subjectively with regard to individuals and groups, and objectively in science (very much including Darwin's theory, where P=species, Q=the changing environment).

Plato did NOT reject relativism. But he did make up the fallacy that "relativism says that everything is true" in the Theaeteus, at the cost of his unfortunate victim Protagoras. Plato implies so much in words, right there. Aristotle copied this caricature to favor his own metaphysics against then superior competition. The article we have is pure BS. BlueMist (talk) 00:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"[Species] are true only in relation to [the changing environment]? What is it for a species to "be true" at all? You're not being very clear. I think you're gesturing at how a species can only be said to be "well-adapted" or some such relative to a given environment, rather than absolutely regardless of environment? In that case that is, like Galilean relativity, not the kind of relativism talked about in the "relativist fallacy". The purported fallacy is talking specifically about truth relativism; about whether something can be true (or not) only relative to someone who believes it (or not). The Earth has a certain velocity relative to the sun and a different velocity relative to the moon, but not relative to what people believe it to be. Polar bears are well-adapted relative to the arctic and poorly adapted relative to the tropics, but not relative to what people believe about them. Etc. --Pfhorrest (talk) 01:10, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Truth relativism" is the moniker for Plato's caricature of Protagoras's subjective relativism (Aristotle correctly called this phenomenalism) in the current literature. I don't want to debate Aristotelianism here. Perhaps elsewhere at another time? I am quite well versed in the physical sciences and Darwin's theory, and those too could be discussed in their proper places.
Subjective relativism and instrumental, methodological, and some other relativisms (but unfortunately not Heraclitus) are well described in the IEP in great articles by Emrys Westacott here and more specifically, here. What you and our article refers to is a deliberate confounding of Protagoras and Heraclitus. It confuses subjective and scientific knowledge: When I say "the coffee is bitter" that is true wrt me and only me (it's relative to me at that time and place and respect), and not wrt the public world, which Plato deliberately claimed. That's about all I can tell you on this subject. BlueMist (talk) 01:46, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
NB The article references the following
  • Law, Stephen (2005) Thinking Tools: The Relativist Fallacy, Think: Philosophy for everyone (A journal of the Royal Institute of Philosophy) 3: 57-58 y

If the article is based on this text then the title would be justified. If somebody suggest that one of one's beliefs is or is based on a fallacy, then gratitude for the warning rather than taking offense would be surely be the appropriate response. (Yes I know, human nature being what it is, most people would rather die the death of a thousand cuts rather than admit they may have made a mistake.

Fallacies

There are some high quality philosophy articles on Wikipedia, but generally I've noticed "fallacies" are in a poor state. Some of these articles in my opinion just shouldn't exist -- they are not terms used by philosophers or in any other field. I have done some "prod"ding and marking for merge. Just now I came across "fallacy of necessity" which looks valid but had what looks like a totally wrong example (see talk page, please correct me if I'm mistaken). This example stood on the page for about three years. There's probably a high benefit-to-work ratio if some philosophically-inclined regular contributor had a good read through of all such articles and did some reshuffling, trimming, and a bit of writing. I'm more of a Wikipedia reader than contributor, so at my pace, it will be a long time. --174.119.182.107 (talk) 01:35, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So much to do on Wikipedia! It will be longer without you than with you. :) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on identifiers

There is an RFC on the addition of identifier links to citations by bots. Please comment. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:55, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is a challenging topic for a Wikipedia article, since views vary as widely as could be imagined, from those who do not believe it exists to those who believe it is the most important thing in the universe, and every possible variant. Until recently our article has been in pretty bad shape, incoherently structured and full of cruft. I and a few others have been working it over -- I believe we have now removed most of the cruft and given the article a robust global structure. There is still a good bit of work to be done, though, including to the Philosophy section, which ought to be expanded to discuss a wider range of views. I would like to invite editors who are well versed in the philosophy of mind to take a look at the article and make improvements if there are any that occur to you.

One issue in particular: I have left in the article a section discussing consciousness as viewed in Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism. I think this is probably something worth covering, but I can't evaluate the material and really can hardly understand it -- it doesn't seem very useful to me as currently written. If there are any editors around with special knowledge of the topic, further opinions would be useful. Looie496 (talk) 20:44, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Unclear article

This article is linked to this project: Dominant group. To me, not an expert, it seems to be a bit unclear. If this is an important concept it would be nice if the meaning was made more clear, besides being a group that dominates other groups. Thanks. BigJim707 (talk) 19:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussions as to what the article should and should not contain have restarted on Talk:Criticism of Judaism, and outside comments would be helpful. Please see the archives and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Noleander#Discretionary sanctions for history and active sanctions. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 05:50, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Natural and legal rights

A while ago, the very sparse and mostly redundant article on Legal rights was merged together with the article on Natural rights into Natural and legal rights, an article comparing and contrasting the two (which is most of what the Natural Rights article was about, while the Legal Rights article was almost entirely redundant with Rights simpliciter). Compare similar comparative articles on rights theory such as Negative and positive rights, Claim rights and liberty rights, and Individual and group rights

Now someone has split off Legal right into a stubby article which, while a bit more substantial than what was there before the merger, still shouldn't be its own article, in my opinion. I think the content added there should be added to Natural and legal rights instead (which needs more weight on the legal rights side of things), and Legal right (or Legal rights - rights articles all use the plural) redirect there, as before.

I invite anyone interested to please join the discussion on this matter at Talk:Legal_right#Split_again.3F --Pfhorrest (talk) 00:51, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article Metadefinition has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Article consists of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH building on a computer science concept better discussed at Metamodeling.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. 202.124.73.181 (talk) 02:34, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Planking

I noticed that the page Planking (fad) is included in this WikiProject, under the anarchism task force. Personally, I find the link tenuous at best - I am not sure it should really be part of this WikiProject. I can see its relevance to Psychology and Sociology, but not Philosophy. ItsZippy (talk) 21:21, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is related to an issue that was brought up here a while ago, but nothing ever happened about it. A while a go we split out the Marxism task force and put those articles into the Socialism project. I had proposed the same type of thing for Anarchism, but I don't want to do it until after they are recognized with the Star of Sophia which I think they deserve. I think in the greater scheme of things there should be a Political Culture project with task forces for Anarchism, Socialism, Fascism, Oligarchy, Corporatism and Liberalism.Greg Bard (talk) 00:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think such a Political Culture project would be great. For the time being, since anarchism is more closely related to that and other existing WikiProjects, and since planking is only distantly related to anarchism, I've removed the WikiProject Philosophy template. CRGreathouse (t | c) 01:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree; a political culture project would be a good idea. Thanks for removing the article from this project. ItsZippy (talk) 07:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did start on creating such a project. However there is much to discuss about how it is organized. Wikipedia:WikiProject Political culture. Greg Bard (talk) 08:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that looks interesting. I'll see if I can help out. ItsZippy (talkContributions) 19:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Input requested in article move discussion

Hi. Readers at this page may be interested in contributing to the discussion at Talk:Jeffersonian democracy#Requested move. Thanks in advance for any input. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]